DMC Posted December 23, 2021 Share Posted December 23, 2021 3 minutes ago, mormont said: I'm not sure this will prove true when we know more about Val's motives. How so? Personally I think it makes more sense that Eleanor was already acquainted with Val than Eleanor finding Yelena on her own (or vice versa). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mormont Posted December 23, 2021 Share Posted December 23, 2021 1 minute ago, DMC said: How so? Personally I think it makes more sense that Eleanor was already acquainted with Val than Eleanor finding Yelena on her own (or vice versa). Because saying Eleanor hired Val implies that Val can be hired by the likes of Eleanor, a fairly minor league player, whereas I'm fairly sure we'll find that Val has her own agenda which is on a grander scale than Eleanor's operation. OTOH, I could believe that Val gave the Yelena/Eleanor contract a nudge from behind the scenes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveSumm Posted December 23, 2021 Share Posted December 23, 2021 6 minutes ago, mormont said: It all fits with what I've said before, which is: unless Marvel have a solid motivation to certify something produced by another studio as canon, they won't. They won't because why would they? What's in it for them? Even if the downside is minor, remote or even theoretical, there needs to be an upside to offset it, and generally there isn't. Eh? Firstly, it is canon until stated otherwise. Secondly, the upside is that an absolute shitload of people (Reddit, YouTube etc are awash with people asking these same questions) think it’d be frickin awesome. Same reason D’Onofrio returning at all was so welcomed, because he was great and people loved that show. That was a huge draw for this finale, that it might finally tie up this loose end of Netflix shows. I do agree they won’t really do anything with a specific plot line from those shows, because they’re not gonna expect people to go watch three seasons of homework for what they’re doing. But they can respect the Netflix fans; the cuff links and the hotel do that. The arbitrary costume change, not so much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMC Posted December 23, 2021 Share Posted December 23, 2021 1 minute ago, mormont said: Because saying Eleanor hired Val implies that Val can be hired by the likes of Eleanor, a fairly minor league player, whereas I'm fairly sure we'll find that Val has her own agenda which is on a grander scale than Eleanor's operation. Well, I kind of agree - As a shady defense/security executive Eleanor would turn to an even more powerful and shadier defense/security executive to try to kill an avenger. That certainly doesn't preclude Val from having her own agenda. Whereas Eleanor finding a former black widow operative - that was blipped to boot - seems more far-fetched. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sifth Posted December 23, 2021 Share Posted December 23, 2021 44 minutes ago, RumHam said: I've seen people say it's the Supreme Strange from What If? but I don't know if that makes sense. That guy was regretful and not especially evil. Yea, but he also destroyed a universe, lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RumHam Posted December 23, 2021 Share Posted December 23, 2021 7 minutes ago, sifth said: Yea, but he also destroyed a universe, lol Yeah but at the end isn't he tasked with watching Ultron and Killmonger? I guess it could be him, but I don't buy that he's "the threat" that Mordo's line makes it sound like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaxom 1974 Posted December 23, 2021 Share Posted December 23, 2021 1 hour ago, RumHam said: Huh, I'd never considered there might be a legal reason not to come out and say "this is that same guy" Hey was Vanessa a comics character or someone they invented for the show? and if she's a show creation do you know if they can still use her? Vanessa Fisk was Kingpin's wife in the comics. And just because Kingpin is the ultimate boss of the Bros, doesn't mean he isn't the boss of another dozen gangs... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polishgenius Posted December 24, 2021 Share Posted December 24, 2021 1 hour ago, DaveSumm said: Firstly, it is canon until stated otherwise Is it? Don't see any particular reason to believe that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RumHam Posted December 24, 2021 Share Posted December 24, 2021 10 minutes ago, polishgenius said: Is it? Don't see any particular reason to believe that. I mean they did make that claim when AoS and the Netflix shows started. "It's all connected." Then there was some reorganization at Marvel and it seemed like they stopped even trying. I didn't watch much of Runaways or Cloak and Dagger but from what I saw it didn't seem like they were even pretending to be set in the same world as the movies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polishgenius Posted December 24, 2021 Share Posted December 24, 2021 1 minute ago, RumHam said: I didn't watch much of Runaways or Cloak and Dagger but from what I saw it didn't seem like they were even pretending to be set in the same world as the movies. Not even the later Netflix shows really bother. Well, Jessica Jones used the Raft, but beyond that, Luke Cage isn't affected by the accords and neither is Jessica herself, and obviously the Blip and Snap just never become part of that universe. Like you could link them back in if you really wanted to, but there's very little actually tying them in, and quite a few ways it wouldn't really make sense to say it was the exact same universe. I mean, I wouldn't have a problem either way. I don't think it's a big deal. I'll enjoy seeing these people again, I don't need to explicitly acknowledge or dismiss that they are exactly who they were. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sifth Posted December 24, 2021 Share Posted December 24, 2021 12 hours ago, polishgenius said: Not even the later Netflix shows really bother. Well, Jessica Jones used the Raft, but beyond that, Luke Cage isn't affected by the accords and neither is Jessica herself, and obviously the Blip and Snap just never become part of that universe. Like you could link them back in if you really wanted to, but there's very little actually tying them in, and quite a few ways it wouldn't really make sense to say it was the exact same universe. I mean, I wouldn't have a problem either way. I don't think it's a big deal. I'll enjoy seeing these people again, I don't need to explicitly acknowledge or dismiss that they are exactly who they were. If I'm remembering correctly Agents of Shield use to talk about the Battle of New York all the time, in it's first season, just to remind you it was part of the MCU. It sort of became a drinking game for me and my friend. "Do you remember the Battle of New York", "this is the worst thing to happen since the Battle of New York", and so on. It's one of the reasons I didn't watch much of the shows second season. As for the Netflix shows, they never talked about MCU stuff directly, but they do refer to "the incident" quite often, which is implied, but never out right stated to be The Battle of New York. Pretty sure Foggy on Dare Devil mentions, that they know aliens exist and even name drops Captain America once, for all it's worth. On Jessica Jones, I know there's a scene where Luke Cage and her sit in a park and talk about all of the other crazy people in the world, one being "the flag waver" and the other being "the green guy". I'm sure there's other stuff that I'm missing, it's been a very long while since I've seen a lot of these shows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveSumm Posted December 24, 2021 Share Posted December 24, 2021 The shirt was D’Onofrio’s idea. Quote "I may have told you this before, but the screensaver on my computer is that Family Business cover of him in that shirt," D'Onofrio says. "It has been for several years. And yeah, that is something that I brought to the table for Hawkeye." Also found this interesting: Quote As the actor told us, he wasn't approached to reprise his role until after Hawkeye had already started to film. One wonders what the plan was when they started then; a different actor or a different character? All seems very rushed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveSumm Posted December 24, 2021 Share Posted December 24, 2021 All the MCU shows were explicitly said to be in the MCU when they aired, that was the selling point. That’s why AoS got such insane ratings for its pilot, which seems weird to think of now. In addition to @sifth ‘s list, we even see a newspaper in Ben Urich’s office of the Battle of Harlem, with a still from Incredible Hulk on the front. I think Feige refers to it as ‘that corner of the MCU’ or something, he certainly never decanonised it. And the timeline mostly makes sense, while a few of the seasons aired after Infinity War none of them really pin themselves down to a date, so they can take place early 2018. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mormont Posted December 24, 2021 Share Posted December 24, 2021 10 hours ago, DaveSumm said: Eh? Firstly, it is canon until stated otherwise. Sure, a lot of people will take that approach. And that works fine for Marvel. Because it means they don't need to explicitly make something canon to get those people on Reddit you're talking about excited. But all this requires from them is the other side of what I've been talking about: don't acknowledge the previous material, but don't do anything to explicitly decanonise that material either, at least not until you think you have a plot that makes it worth doing. Ultimately, though, those fans are going to watch the films/TV series anyway. So the benefit of pleasing them is easy to get and not costly to lose. The cufflink, for example, was a nod that pleases those fans but doesn't necessarily canonise anything in the Netflix material: on its own, it's just a cufflink that Fisk happened to have on him. 10 hours ago, DMC said: Well, I kind of agree - As a shady defense/security executive Eleanor would turn to an even more powerful and shadier defense/security executive to try to kill an avenger. That certainly doesn't preclude Val from having her own agenda. Whereas Eleanor finding a former black widow operative - that was blipped to boot - seems more far-fetched. Maybe, but then back in ep 5 Ana was trying to get Yelena to hire out her services (post-blip) so there's a way that might have come to Eleanor's attention... particularly if that follows Val's scene with Yelena. They have that conversation, Yelena then hears on the grapevine that someone is looking to hire an assassin to deal with Clint, she lets it be known that no-one else is to take up that contract, moves in and we pick up on that rooftop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMC Posted December 24, 2021 Share Posted December 24, 2021 1 hour ago, mormont said: but then back in ep 5 Ana was trying to get Yelena to hire out her services (post-blip) so there's a way that might have come to Eleanor's attention... particularly if that follows Val's scene with Yelena. Wait, wasn't that conversation immediately after Yelena returned from the blip and at the end Yelena says she needs to find Nat? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mormont Posted December 24, 2021 Share Posted December 24, 2021 2 hours ago, DMC said: Wait, wasn't that conversation immediately after Yelena returned from the blip and at the end Yelena says she needs to find Nat? Yeah. But does that make a difference? Yelena doesn't have to take up Ana's offer there and then. She can go from there, to Nat's grave and the discussion with Val, to hiring out her services to make a living until she can track down Clint, to the contract on Clint coming up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sifth Posted December 24, 2021 Share Posted December 24, 2021 Am I'm the only grateful, Kate's mom actually got arrested? I was half expecting her to talk her way out of it after a sob story, like a certain character did on Picard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMC Posted December 24, 2021 Share Posted December 24, 2021 2 hours ago, mormont said: Yeah. But does that make a difference? Not really, just asking cuz of the "particularly if that follows Val's scene with Yelena" part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted December 24, 2021 Author Share Posted December 24, 2021 2 hours ago, sifth said: Am I'm the only grateful, Kate's mom actually got arrested? I was half expecting her to talk her way out of it after a sob story, like a certain character did on Picard. Ooooooohhhh… (I was going to ask but just recalled who you mean). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
felice Posted January 2, 2022 Share Posted January 2, 2022 On 12/24/2021 at 4:21 AM, john said: The more I think about the watch, the less sense it makes. How does it expose Laura? Why would Kingpin care about exposing Laura? I assume the watch was known to belong to Ronin (along with his suit and sword), and Echo wanted it as a potential clue to the identity of the vigilante who killed her father. Kingpin wasn't involved in that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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