VICTARION QUERY

[Macgregor of the North]

Hi, I have been away from the forums and books for an age, but have buried my head in some chapters again recently.

Is there a complete chapter transcript (or audio/video) anywhere out there of TWOW Victarion I?

I have read second hand accounts of a more fleshed out chapter than what is available; however, I have never read this as a full chapter or ever heard the words from GRRM himself in any interviews.

I would like to read/hear this for myself in its proper form, as it will help with research notes I am bringing together.

(I would provide a little more info, but I haven't been on here in a long time and I'm rusty on policy of describing events in the TWOW sample chapters).

Thanks,

MOTN.

EDIT: The extended chapter is proving to be very elusive. I’d still love to read it in full, but don’t hold much hope for now. In any case, I’m happy to continue discussions and will likely still flesh out a fully detailed post sometime soonish on it all. 

[Tucu]

We only have a transcript of a partial reading done by GRRM. It is probably two pages long.

[Macgregor of the North]

@Tucu

Thanks. I thought that may be the case. Pretty frustrating actually, as at the moment I am on a bit of a Dragonbinder research mission.

I'm not sure if what Victarion is doing in the extended part of the chapter will have much use to his cause, but all the same I am desperate to read how it is laid out on page.

[Tucu]

There is a small bit of lore in F&B that you might find interesting:

Quote

His Grace grieved for Prince Aemon until the end of his days, but the Old King never dreamed that Aemon’s death in 92 AC would be like the hellhorns of Valyrian legend, bringing death and destruction down on all those who heard their sound.

 

[Curled Finger]

Dude, it is good to see you posting!   Maybe not exact, but I found transcripts on ASOIAF University which looks like a link to reddit.  But it is there, accuracy be damned.   Waiting for a topic on dragonbinder from you then...

[Macgregor of the North]

6 minutes ago, Tucu said:

There is a small bit of lore in F&B that you might find interesting:

 

Interesting to see another mention of the old Valyrian Dragonlords' horns. I haven't read F&B yet.

 There is scant mention of them in the ASOIAF series; they're certainly specifically tied to the dragonlords of old, and not the Targaryens who flourished after The Doom.

I often try to read the glyphs on Dragonbinder from the perspective of a dragonlord and not Victarion or Moqorro.

"I am Dragonbinder.

No mortal man shall sound me and live.

Blood for fire, fire for blood."

At times I think it seems like a boast of the dragonlords' superiority over their mere mortal slaves, as in their blood is like that of a literal Dragon, and it's a statement that only they can use such horns - akin to the whole "fire made flesh" thing.

Other times, I view it like Moqorro does and it relates to the magical power of fire and blood and that the horn can be claimed with blood sacrifice.

 

 

 

 

[Macgregor of the North]

6 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Dude, it is good to see you posting!   Maybe not exact, but I found transcripts on ASOIAF University which looks like a link to reddit.  But it is there, accuracy be damned.   Waiting for a topic on dragonbinder from you then...

Hello, old friend 

Thanks for the info. Do you know if it the chapter extends past Victarion telling Moqorro to light his fire and that the dusky woman will bleed him?

I have indeed been arranging notes on Euron, Pyat Pree, Victarion, Moqorro, the dusky woman and Dragonbinder so a post may be drawn up. Not sure though, it's been a long time since I've written at length on all this.

[LynnS]

36 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

I have indeed been arranging notes on Euron, Pyat Pree, Victarion, Moqorro, the dusky woman and Dragonbinder so a post may be drawn up. Not sure though, it's been a long time since I've written at length on all this.

I'm certainly interested.  Perhaps you could lead us through the discussion introducing each part separately and then tying them together.

[Macgregor of the North]

47 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I'm certainly interested.  Perhaps you could lead us through the discussion introducing each part separately and then tying them together.

I think it’s a great topic, all the more exciting because it is literally ready to explode on page as soon as we read the next book.

A more fleshed out separate post will likely come, but as this post has sparked a bit of interest I will lay out some broad strokes I lean to and ones I’m dead set on soon, when I have more time.

Some discussion will likely help shape a future post; it always used to. 

[Curled Finger]

2 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Hello, old friend 

Thanks for the info. Do you know if it the chapter extends past Victarion telling Moqorro to light his fire and that the dusky woman will bleed him?

I have indeed been arranging notes on Euron, Pyat Pree, Victarion, Moqorro, the dusky woman and Dragonbinder so a post may be drawn up. Not sure though, it's been a long time since I've written at length on all this.

Check your messages--easier to just send it than explain.  Hope it helps.  This transcription ends with Moqorro saying he sees dragons.   Fire & Blood has a lot of clues to eventualities or histories in the main tale a fine mind such as yours will feast upon!  Ah it will be great to be chatting about frickin Victarion and his whole weird bunch.  

[Seams]

So nice to see your name back in the forum, @Macgregor of the North. I look forward to reading your ideas on Victarion and Dragonbinder. 

Coincidentally, this old half-digested set of ideas got churned up earlier today. Fwiw.

 

[Macgregor of the North]

1 hour ago, Seams said:

So nice to see your name back in the forum, @Macgregor of the North. I look forward to reading your ideas on Victarion and Dragonbinder. 

Coincidentally, this old half-digested set of ideas got churned up earlier today. Fwiw.

 

Hey Seams! Glad to see you’re still around! Thanks for leaving that link, I’ll check it out.

I was always heavy on all things Bran and the North before (and I still am), but I’ve really been into these Greyjoy brothers recently and the whole Dragonbinder scenario so I thought I’d pop my head back into the forums. 

I’ll jump back on this post tomorrow and get some thoughts and ideas going like old times. 

[Jaenara Belarys]

@Macgregor of the North, I think you can find the sample Victarion chapter online if you just look it up as "Victarion TWOW sample chapter", but I don't know if it would break copyright laws (I'm not a lawyer after all). That site has all the other released chapters as well, if you're interested. 

[Macgregor of the North]

2 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

@Macgregor of the North, I think you can find the sample Victarion chapter online if you just look it up as "Victarion TWOW sample chapter", but I don't know if it would break copyright laws (I'm not a lawyer after all). That site has all the other released chapters as well, if you're interested. 

Hey Jaenara,

I have indeed read the chapter I’m seeking (and all the others), it’s just that there is fan’s summary of an extension on Victarion I TWOW; this is what I’m trying to get my eyes and ears on as it sounds brilliant.

All I’ve ever seen is a second hand account of it in a fan’s own words who I think attended a reading. I am desperate to read how GRRM literally lays it down on page. It’s cool though, it’s just nice to be back on the forum and I intend to discuss the topic more regardless.

[Jaenara Belarys]

Just now, Macgregor of the North said:

I have indeed read the chapter I’m seeking (and all the others), it’s just that there is fan’s summary of an extension on Victarion I TWOW; this is what I’m trying to get my eyes and ears on as it sounds brilliant.

 

Oh. Welp. Sorry, I haven't seen that.  

[Macgregor of the North]

6 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

Oh. Welp. Sorry, I haven't seen that.  

Spoiler

The summary explains how after Moqorro is instructed to light his fires and that he “sees dragons”, Victarion’s hand is then bled by the dusky woman and he rubs the blood into the horn while murmuring softly about dragons... 

This is the segment that is proving extremely elusive. 

[Macgregor of the North]

@Curled Finger @LynnS @Jaenara Belarys @Seams

Hey folks, after chatting yesterday, I’ve been thinking more on the topic and I’ll throw down some broad strokes that I believe/lean to, and see how it goes.

In a more thorough future post, I’ll present things with quotes etc. as was my usual custom back in the day, but for brevity now I’ll be “brief”.

Pyat Pree the Warlock is at large, hell-bent on revenge against Dany. He was captured by Euron and his horn Dragonbinder was taken, but has manoeuvred himself into a favourable position while his remaining two Warlocks will be sacrificed; this is something Pree probably made Euron think was some kind of deal, when in fact he likely had no choice. The two were conspiring and manipulating each other.

Dragonbinder at least, seems to be able to be mastered. If true, Pree, being senior Warlock was likely its master - and still could be. IF, the horn can be “claimed” by blood, it is possible Euron had to kill Pree but never (IMO). Euron thinks he is the horn’s master and when it is blown, the dragons will be bound to him. I have often wondered if he thinks this is because he slew the Warlock who threatened him and Pree explained he slew “the master”; this would appease Euron who would believe it as per his “iron price” ideology. Or, Euron believes he is the master because he offered up his mute as blood sacrifice and in that fashion he is Dragonbinder’s master. 

In any event, it’s possible Pyat Pree could be the master and the horn is still to be claimed.

Moqorro is clever and powerful and knows more than we read on page, obviously. He is a red priest and that’s his mission. To protect the prophecy and aid Azor Ahai. This obviously means he’s got Dany’s interests in mind. I believe he knows of Pree, but is confident he will act when the time is right and is displaying patience and keeping Victarion onside with him.

Victarion himself is a character I have warmed to consistently and enjoy reading about. I will not be biased however and know his days are numbered. How soon he dies though and what “glory” he will have before his final moments, is all up for grabs. His hand will have significance, as he feels a different man. More powerful. I wonder that in the chaos of battle, will he feel invincible enough and “immortal” enough to blow the horn himself? Who knows... and who knows what that would entail.

And the dusky woman... dusk... dusky... thoughts of evening... shadow, or shade..?

Granted, I have wrestled with the “how” and the exact logistics on how a creature like Pree could masquerade as a “dusky woman”, but I have never been able to shake the connection. If there is a Pree connection there, she is clearly Victarion’s enemy, Dany’s enemy and a threat to Dragonbinder and the dragons.

While the battle rages around Meereen, we will have Rhaegal, a questionable dusky woman/dusky Pree, a red priest primed to act with one goal: protect the prophecy’s hero; and we will have a much-changed Ironborn warrior who now has the magical power of fire flowing through his blood. A man who may be emboldened enough to fancy himself invincible - the opposite of a “mortal man”. 

Will Dragonbinder be claimed by Pree? Or the slaying of Pree (possible master) when he reveals himself? Or will the horn be claimed another way? By an emboldened Victarion who was changed by Moqorro’s fire and bloodmagic? How will Rhaegal react if an oarsman/various oarsmen blow it? Will Moqorro claim the horn as a safety measure for the prophecy’s hero (in the eyes of red priests). 

 

The whole reason I made this post was because allegedly there’s an extension to Victarion’s TWOW chapter that I wish to read concerning Dragonbinder and blood. It’s not out there in official form yet, which is frustrating, but I’m going to carry on my research regardless. 

Obviously, there is a world of quotes and references that I’ve left out, and I’m WELL aware these thoughts have been discussed until people are blue in the face (or lips), but it’s been on my mind and been good to write and release it. 

 

[Tucu]

I am convinced that Moqorro played a confidence trick with Victarion over the horn. I think Moqorro never read the real glyphs to Victarion. Moqorro gets Victarion to tell all he knows about the incident with the horn at the kingsmoot and THEN he tells Victarion what the glyphs "say".

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Obviously, there is a world of quotes and references that I’ve left out, and I’m WELL aware these thoughts have been discussed until people are blue in the face (or lips), but it’s been on my mind and been good to write and release it. 

You present some interesting questions about the Greyjoy brothers.  I'm not sure this subject can ever be done to death.   After reading the Foresaken chapter; Euron scares the hell out of me. Whatever glory Moqorro has seen in Victarion's future is going to, as you say, explode off the page.  Victarion  is also frightening and dangerous in his way; narcissistic, yet simple-minded and easy to manipulate.  Compared to Euron, Victarion is comic relief.

My guess is that Victarion will acquire Viserion.  GRRM has given the white dragon a name that combines Viserys and Victarion; that he will be joined with Viserion in some fashion.  That this will be facilitated by Moqorro and the dragonbinding horn.

The fire for blood. blood for fire  riddle seems to imply blood sacrifice in exchange for the transformation of blood to fire. Which I assume is a prerequisite for claiming the horn.  The question is whether Moqorro has started that transformation when he treats Victarion's hand.   

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Victarion I

The galleys he renamed Ghost and Shade. "For I mean them to return and haunt these Yunkishmen," he told the dusky woman that night after he had taken his pleasure of her. They were close now, and growing closer every day. "We will fall upon them like a thunderbolt," he said, as he squeezed the woman's breast. He wondered if this was how his brother Aeron felt when the Drowned God spoke to him. He could almost hear the god's voice welling up from the depths of the sea. You shall serve me well, my captain, the waves seemed to say. It was for this I made you.

But he would feed the red god too, Moqorro's fire god. The arm the priest had healed was hideous to look upon, pork crackling from elbow to fingertips. Sometimes when Victarion closed his hand the skin would split and smoke, yet the arm was stronger than it had ever been. "Two gods are with me now," he told the dusky woman. "No foe can stand before two gods." Then he rolled her on her back and took her once again.

 

[LynnS]

Ach!  I messed up my post.... to continue...

What I've noticed in some POV's is the repetition of specific words.  For example, the word sword in Jon's POV, shield in Jamie's POV, Wall in Sam's POV and hand in Victarion's POV.  This might be nothing or something.  I think that Victarion will become someone's or something's Hand or instrument.

Quote

 

A Dance with Dragons - Victarion I

But Moqorro knew these strange shores in ways the ironborn did not, and secrets of the dragonkind as well. The Crow's Eye keeps wizards, why shouldn't I? His black sorcerer was more puissant than all of Euron's three, even if you threw them in a pot and boiled them down to one. The Damphair might disapprove, but Aeron and his pieties were far away.

So Victarion closed his burned hand into a mighty fist, and said, "Ghiscari Dawn is no fit name for a ship of the Iron Fleet. For you, wizard, I shall rename her Red God's Wroth."

 

 Certainly Moqorro is not telling Victarion everything.  Eventually the joke will be on Vic after Moqorro is done with him.

I don't have any real sense about the role of the Dusky Woman.  I think Moqorro is employing a glamor and she is someone who can see his true form.  I wonder what the Dark Flame really looks like and if his entire body looks like Victarion's arm. If so, it implies that there is more to the Dusky Woman than meets the eye but I don't know what it is or if she has any kind of role other than as Victarion's slave.  However, Euron's gifts are poison.