Covid-19 #42 Nu Tsunami Incoming

[Varysblackfyre321]

9 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

It’s not the main goal, because if it was the main goal it doesn’t do a very good job. The main goal of vaccination, and what vaccination does very well is protect from serious disease and death.

And to lessen the chance of getting infected in the first place. You can’t give what you don’t have. 
 

 

18 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Since children are already at very low risks for serious disease and death it’s not entirely obvious why you would need to immunise them.

Because it’s good to lessen their chances of getting infected and thus able to pass it on to others who very well may be of high risk.

Mumps aren’t that big of a deal for deal for children , they’re immunized to help protect the population when they grow up

[DireWolfSpirit]

That's what I thought I said.

Probably useless to repeat it.

[Larry of the Lawn]

32 minutes ago, The Anti-Targ said:

World Organisation for Animal Health officially calls for some action on SARS-COV-2 in white tailed deer.

OIE Statement on monitoring white-tailed deer for SARS-CoV-2 - OIE - World Organisation for Animal Health

 

Huh, that's interesting.  The white-tail deer in my area were hit pretty bad this year with a virus that kills within 36 hours, transmitted by midge flies.  

 

46 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

It’s not the main goal, because if it was the main goal it doesn’t do a very good job. The main goal of vaccination, and what vaccination does very well is protect from serious disease and death. Since children are already at very low risks for serious disease and death it’s not entirely obvious why you would need to immunise them.

Because vaccines do reduce transmission.

[Zorral]

Our zip code went up significantly in positive cases according to the Friday numbers release.  In fact, our zip is higher than all the others south, east and west of us, and lot of them north of us.  So ya, continue to mask even outdoors a lot of the time, because there are so many -- those who don't live here --  who won't.

[The Anti-Targ]

Vaccination absolutely reduces transmission. However if you want to see summertime levels of cases in winter with a virus that has a basic R number of 6 (or more) and breakthrough infection and transmission in a proportion of vaccinated people you need very high vaccination rates, well over 80% of the total population. Modelling suggests 85%+. That level of vaccination is largely unachievable without making the vaccine available to everyone over 5, or mandating vaccination and getting pretty much 100% compliance with everyone over 12.

Here our 12+ population is about 85% of the total. We do have 93% of the 12+ first dosed, but it's going to be a very difficult task getting that last 7%. 

South Africa reports saying hospital admissions are increasing, but not for COVID symptoms, though people with SARS-COV-2 infection are being found in those non-COVID-19 hospital admissions at a higher rate. Something curious going no there? Omicron not causing classic COVID-19 but perhaps causing pre-existing conditions to worsen? Bit of a strange bird omicron appears to be.

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

Respect.

 

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

1 hour ago, The Anti-Targ said:

World Organisation for Animal Health officially calls for some action on SARS-COV-2 in white tailed deer.

OIE Statement on monitoring white-tailed deer for SARS-CoV-2 - OIE - World Organisation for Animal Health

This is being reported here but I haven't been following it. There were also stories of some zoo where the tigers were all sick.

I wonder if there are any documented non-human fatalities from Covid. 

[Padraig]

1 hour ago, The Anti-Targ said:

That level of vaccination is largely unachievable without making the vaccine available to everyone over 5, or mandating vaccination and getting pretty much 100% compliance with everyone over 12.

While I do see the advantages for adults in getting kids vaccinated, I do think it is important to frame such vaccinations as directly benefiting kids (which can be done).  Any debate becomes much more straight forward.

By the way, Canada continues to do very well.  I think only Norway/Finland are comparable in North America/Europe.  And both of those have struggled more with the latest wave. Canada's better vacciation rate may be the difference (although there are a few other countries that are even better).

[The Anti-Targ]

45 minutes ago, Padraig said:

While I do see the advantages for adults in getting kids vaccinated, I do think it is important to frame such vaccinations as directly benefiting kids (which can be done).  Any debate becomes much more straight forward.

By the way, Canada continues to do very well.  I think only Norway/Finland are comparable in North America/Europe.  And both of those have struggled more with the latest wave. Canada's better vacciation rate may be the difference (although there are a few other countries that are even better).

Sure, there are advantages for kids. While it is at a low level, kids can still get bad cases of COVID, end up in hospital and die. So it's not a zero risk thing for kids. And since breakthrough infection, hospitalisation and death is also non-negligible, then only vaccinating vulnerable children / children who live with vulnerable family members does not totally guard against those vulnerable people being exposed via child transmission.

One anecdote of COVID-19 affecting the wider health sector. A friend of mine, in her early 30s, needs heart surgery. But her surgery has been delayed because ICU capacity is being reserved for COVID-19 cases. This is here, in NZ where there are very few cases and only a handful of people in ICU. It won't take much of an uptick in cases and hospital admissions for the wider health sector to start suffering even more delays. And when there are delays in healthcare there are worse healthcare outcomes. The govt has announced that it will be increasing ICU capacity, but since you need specially trained doctors and nurses it will take some years to actually achieve that increased capacity, unless we can import the talent from some of y'all. You got any spare ICU medical staff sitting around doing nothing who we can poach?... No?

[Luzifer's right hand]

3 hours ago, The Anti-Targ said:

Sure, there are advantages for kids. While it is at a low level, kids can still get bad cases of COVID, end up in hospital and die. So it's not a zero risk thing for kids. And since breakthrough infection, hospitalisation and death is also non-negligible, then only vaccinating vulnerable children / children who live with vulnerable family members does not totally guard against those vulnerable people being exposed via child transmission.

One anecdote of COVID-19 affecting the wider health sector. A friend of mine, in her early 30s, needs heart surgery. But her surgery has been delayed because ICU capacity is being reserved for COVID-19 cases. This is here, in NZ where there are very few cases and only a handful of people in ICU. It won't take much of an uptick in cases and hospital admissions for the wider health sector to start suffering even more delays. And when there are delays in healthcare there are worse healthcare outcomes. The govt has announced that it will be increasing ICU capacity, but since you need specially trained doctors and nurses it will take some years to actually achieve that increased capacity, unless we can import the talent from some of y'all. You got any spare ICU medical staff sitting around doing nothing who we can poach?... No?

Germany hospitals actually lost significant amounts of staff since the last autumn wave. I have not seen numbers for Austria but every person I know in health care or caretaking is thinking about quitting. We are destroying our health care systems.

NZ might be capable of attracting foreign medical personnel with is impressive pandemic response. I mean the anti-measure people that are quitting are not really people you should be interested in anyway and everyone I know personally wants to quit because they are burning out and because they feel left alone with the virus while the rest of our society spends most of its time ignoring measures and calls them criminals and worse.

[Heartofice]

10 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

And to lessen the chance of getting infected in the first place. You can’t give what you don’t have. 
 

Yes vaccinations reduce the rate of infection, they don’t completely stop it however, and it’s not clear protection against infection is any better than previous infection with Covid.

 
Even now, countries with high vaccination rates are seeing rising cases, in some matching this time last year. The difference this year is that deaths and hospitalisations are a lot lower. That’s because the real goal of vaccinations is to stop people becoming seriously unwell and dying, and it’s doing a good job of that. 
 

Quote

Because it’s good to lessen their chances of getting infected and thus able to pass it on to others who very well may be of high risk.

It depends on the cost benefit of vaccinating children. Vaccines aren’t free and they aren’t unlimited, so it could be you are spending money and taking away vaccines from people who actually need it, to give to children who are in almost no danger from the virus ( ironically to protect people who are already triple jabbed)
 

There is also the uncertainty about the long term effects of vaccines which we won’t know for a long time, but at the same time you don’t help to quell the fears of those with Covid  vaccine uncertainty by imposing vaccines on their children, children who don’t need it. 

 

 

[Varysblackfyre321]

1 hour ago, Heartofice said:

Yes vaccinations reduce the rate of infection

It’d be nice if you could just Stop right there on a reasonable statement of fact. I won’t pretend you’re a complete idiot and think you haven’t heard at least one person respond with something along the lines of “you wouldn’t say airbags are pointless if breaks are effective at helping prevent crashes.”  Throughout the entirety of the pandemic.

You are not an idiot. 

1 hour ago, Heartofice said:

Even now, countries with high vaccination rates are seeing rising cases, in some matching this time last year.

In large part because of people like you.  if a person is not elderly  and/or healthy(in their eyes) it’s not unreasonable if they buy your lies on the consequences of vaccine to not get vaccinated. 

You are not an idiot. 

1 hour ago, Heartofice said:

It depends on the cost benefit of vaccinating children.

Covid is the one of the leading causes of death for them and there’s a benefit in perhaps them not killing their grandparents or their obese parents with covid,

I know you knew this. 
Developed countries are not in short supply for vaccines. The problem comes in when people listen to people with alternative views like yourself.

You are not an idiot.

1 hour ago, Heartofice said:

There is also the uncertainty about the long term effects of vaccines

You are not an idiot.

[Heartofice]

4 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

It’d be nice if you could just Stop right there on a reasonable statement of fact. I won’t pretend you’re a complete idiot and think you haven’t heard at least one person respond with something along the lines of “you wouldn’t say airbags are pointless if breaks are effective at helping prevent crashes.”  Throughout the entirety of the pandemic.

What is your point? I'm not saying don't have vaccines, or that vaccines don't work. I'm double jabbed. My elderly relatives have had their boosters. All I'm saying is that the main goal of vaccines is to prevent serious illness and death, because that is what the vaccines are really good at. If you have any other thoughts let me know. I suspect you aren't an idiot.

 

Quote

In large part because of people like you.  if a person is not elderly  and/or healthy(in their eyes) it’s not unreasonable if they buy your lies on the consequences of vaccine to not get vaccinated. 

You are not an idiot. 

What is a person like me? I am assuming you think I am an anti vaxxer (to go along with nazi). Well I'm not. Which lie have I just told. Please elaborate.
 

Quote

Covid is the one of the leading causes of death for them.

No. It really isn't. Its not even close. I suspect you know this. I know you are not an idiot.

And when it comes to the long term effects of vaccines I am almost entirely sure that there won't be any harmful effects, mainly because in almost all vaccines any side effects show up within a few months. However I don't think it's totally unreasonable to be worried about long term effects of vaccines on children, for the simple reason that these are new vaccines and there simply is no long term data and there won't be for years. 

When you already have a significant issue with convincing vaccines hesitant people as to why they should get the vaccine, you don't help the cause by pretending there is a great benefit to vaccinating children who are almost entirely unaffected by the virus. 
 

[Varysblackfyre321]

8 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

What is a person like me? I

Certainly not an idiot.

8 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

I am assuming you think I am an anti vaxxer

Where did I say you were this? Or a Nazi? Why do you continue to bring up the word Nazi every single time we talk? 

8 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Well I'm not. Which lie have I just told.

Dude get down from your cross. And the lie to which people of your ilk say often. That vaccines don’t help in curbing transmission for a viral disease. 
 

This is a lie. 

[Heartofice]

What a pointless post. 

[Varysblackfyre321]

13 hours ago, DireWolfSpirit said:

That's what I thought I said.

Probably useless to repeat it.

Probably so yes. Even if we could guarantee a vaccine that will make a person’s chance of getting covid zero such types will play the fool and ask things like “will they make my balls explode?”  If you explain in great depth on how there’s no evidence for their expressed concern  they’ll go “I heard they’ll make my balls explode” and then smirk at your incredulity.

Seeing such actors and their affect on people during the course of the pandemic has put me more in line to the position of it sometimes being better to socially isolate, blacklist, and censor, and threaten the employment of some people rather than rely on debate to get them to do the right thing.

[Week]

Sad to still see disinformation about vaccines here. Confusion over their purpose, effectiveness, and safety with zero evidence to back it up. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. 

[Heartofice]

3 minutes ago, Week said:

Sad to still see disinformation about vaccines here. Confusion over their purpose, effectiveness, and safety with zero evidence to back it up. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. 

Which bit is disinformation 

[Which Tyler]

12 hours ago, The Anti-Targ said:

Sure, there are advantages for kids. While it is at a low level, kids can still get bad cases of COVID, end up in hospital and die. So it's not a zero risk thing for kids. And since breakthrough infection, hospitalisation and death is also non-negligible, then only vaccinating vulnerable children / children who live with vulnerable family members does not totally guard against those vulnerable people being exposed via child transmission.

One anecdote of COVID-19 affecting the wider health sector. A friend of mine, in her early 30s, needs heart surgery. But her surgery has been delayed because ICU capacity is being reserved for COVID-19 cases. This is here, in NZ where there are very few cases and only a handful of people in ICU. It won't take much of an uptick in cases and hospital admissions for the wider health sector to start suffering even more delays. And when there are delays in healthcare there are worse healthcare outcomes. The govt has announced that it will be increasing ICU capacity, but since you need specially trained doctors and nurses it will take some years to actually achieve that increased capacity, unless we can import the talent from some of y'all. You got any spare ICU medical staff sitting around doing nothing who we can poach?... No?

The UK just told about 2/3 of our medical staff that they're not welcome in the country; and the rest were told that applause for a few months, a year ago, is better than being paid properly...

[Week]

35 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Which bit is disinformation 

Have you grown any extra limbs lately? It was about a year ago you posted some nonsense about long-term vaccine effects. At the time it was thoroughly thrown out - not only do vaccines have a very long track record of safety (zero evidence to support 'just asking questions' tossers), we don't know the long-term effects of COVID (which can be significant).

Your assertions about the point of vaccines are simply your own point of view which are unsupported and lack common sense at this juncture. Vaccines have been less effective in transmission with Delta due to the higher viral load, however the shorter, less severe illness reduces the potential time of infectiousness.

Very mixed evidence that prior COVID infection is more protective than a vaccine. At most charitable to your view, protection is -- vaccine + prior infection > prior infection > vaccine -- except that prior infection is difficult to track and verify, represents significant risk to an individual and society due to the greater risk of spreading/mutating/serious illness. 

Your posting suggests that you don't appreciate the change in the virus, risk, and that those pinky swear promises that hold dearly onto about vaccine passports may not be kept. Nor should they be.