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The Wheel of Time: Another Turning (No Book Spoilers)


Ran

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The tension has been escalated. The politiking w/in the White Tower Moiraine  warned Nynaeve about appears exquisitely lethal already.  Hope the Tinkers, despite the worst name ever for a spiritual path, have survived. Those white cloaks are the worst.  The interior of the White Tower's city makes me think a whole lot of what Aleppo was like in the 16th C.

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On 12/4/2021 at 11:58 AM, Zorral said:

Hope the Tinkers, despite the worst name ever for a spiritual path, 

It's so long since i first read the books I'd forgotten any feelings I had on it, but yeah it's not a catchy name lol.

BFC - hard to know which part of the book discussion put you off, if it's purely the negative reaction some book readers are having then I'd say you can just ignore them. If it's not liking the descriptions of how some of it plays out in the books then you might be right to avoid. 

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4 hours ago, karaddin said:

 

BFC - hard to know which part of the book discussion put you off, if it's purely the negative reaction some book readers are having then I'd say you can just ignore them. If it's not liking the descriptions of how some of it plays out in the books then you might be right to avoid. 

It's just the huge size and scope, too many names and factions and events. Just seems like it will be unnecessarily unwieldy. 

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14 hours ago, karaddin said:

hard to know which part of the book discussion put you off,

All of it, because pointless to nonbookers, and has nothing whatsoever to do with the show.  I found the books unreadable for many reasons, almost all of which -- beyond certain moments of voice-over or expo or dialog, i.e. language, such as "Way of the Leaf" yikes! and the incessant slicing, dicing of this set of people and that set of people -- have been excised from show, which I enjoy, or am so far! 

It's exactly the same here with the books thread, but I don't have to read it and I don't.  But when it comes to the show the bookers took show thread over too.  Then they spoilered and even argued over the spoilers. 

 

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Yeah I specifically meant put BFC off reading the books, being put off reading the book thread wouldn't need any explanation lol. And the reason was perfectly fair and I'd say stick with it. The books will still be there after the show ends if you feel a desire to read them later.

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On the subject of names, I got into a heated argument with my brother over the use of the English language, specifically that of the word 'wisdom' for a title. He said that was stupid and it made no sense.

People have wisdom, they cannot be wisdoms, he said. I tried to point out that words can have varied meanings and connotations. He wouldn't accept it. I tried to bring up historical examples. In ancient times there were people called 'wise men' not simply because they were wise, but because they were learned men who had a certain position in society. Nope, he would have none of it. Then I tried comparing it with Game of Thrones. Why would a person be called the Hand of the King. Doesn't the king have hands? :laugh: He still wouldn't take. :bang: He likes the made up names, like Aes Sedai, even though I told him the name of Aes Sedai is inspired by Irish mythology.

My brother would fit nicely in Two Rivers culture. :P

This has always drawn me in fantasy storytelling. The way writers used simple words to create layers of meaning for people and places. Tolkien did it, and I'm fine with other writers doing it. Not sure why stuff like "Way of the Leaf" is poor writing.

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Meh, just point out that all words are invented; all languages are either evolving or stagnating; and that pretty much every author invents, or re-utilises words all the time - certainly Chaucer, Shakespeare and Tolkein were all keen on it.

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1 hour ago, Corvinus85 said:

Not sure why stuff like "Way of the Leaf" is poor writing.

Yeah. I initially misunderstood the OP, because it looked like they mixed the name of the group (Tinkers) with their practice (Way of the Leaf). I can see "Tinker" being annoying, but I'm not sure why Way of the Leaf is. 

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1 hour ago, Corvinus85 said:

why stuff like "Way of the Leaf" is poor writing.

All the bits and pieces have to plausibly fit together in world building.  In another language other than English, using 'leaf' or 'leaves' could well signify and imply what the Roma wise woman spends an entire scene explicating. But w/in this universe, there are so many linguistic clunkers -- and o so very many! -- this one, well, it doesn't.  It takes as said, a character spending many words to get to die, decay, mulch, aerate, fertilize -- and then return. And what does that have to do with their passive resistance of violence unto their own deaths?  That is supposed to be the point of Way of the Leaf, but it is not embedded in those words in English.

Whereas Tolkien dealt with languages he knew well, as well as his own invented languages, for which he made damned sure there were all the same semiotic patterns and connections that real languages have. WoT is like gaming; it just grabs on things, regardless of how cultural and language patterns emerge and evolve.  Does that make sense?  Also, of course, the reach for 'high tone' -- it almost always is ridiculous unless it is truly embedded in the language(s) of a time and place in their rhetorical practice.

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13 minutes ago, Zorral said:

 It takes as said, a character spending many words to get to die, decay, mulch, aerate, fertilize -- and then return. And what does that have to do with their passive resistance of violence unto their own deaths?  That is supposed to be the point of Way of the Leaf, but it is not embedded in those words in English.

I will say I agree that speech from Ila was clunky. The book explanation is somewhat better. I don't particularly need a breakdown of the decomposition process for a leaf to get how a leaf can symbolize non-resistance and non-violence. 

Spoiler

“The Way of the Leaf?” Egwene said. “What is that?”

Aram gestured to the trees, his eyes fastened intently on hers. “The leaf lives its appointed time, and does not struggle against the wind that carries it away. The leaf does no harm, and finally falls to nourish new leaves. So it should be with all men. And women.”

Quote

 

 

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I've never been bothered by Jordan's choice of names, but I have been bothered by his choice of pronunciations. In this latest episode I found out I've been pronouncing Ogier incorrectly all this time, but I think mine is better: O-G-ehr. :D 

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A whole lot of people are not bothered by these matters and concerns when reading their favorite kinds of fiction.

It's just generally people who spend a lot of time with words and writing, bounce so hard off of narratives that are clumsy with organization and structure, rhythm and pacing, tone and timbre (often called having ears).  If these things aren't noticed by the reader, they aren't cared about by the reader, so there it is.  Whereas, if they are noticed by the reader as a matter of course, because they matter to the reader, the reader often can't get past that. So there it is.  :dunno:

It's like a person who is highly skilled with tools and products of carpentry or mechanics.  Carpenters and mechanics cannot overlook the errors of usage and construction and find any satisfaction. or approve of the product, even if relatives and friends don't notice the errors and that the product should have been a whole lot better.  Even if it doesn't fall down immediately.  :D

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1 hour ago, Babblebauble said:

Tell us more, great one. If we be worthy one day might we, too, learn to scry the stories as do you?

Lo! Lo and woe upon us, to find oneself having been as blind is surely a gift of seeing!

We all scry the stories as we scry them, and we don't make fun of or attack those who scry differently, right?  

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I just disliked 'Way of the leaf' from the perspective of "if I were living in WotLand would this name intrigue me, or make me laugh at it's followers?" and it's at the latter end of the spectrum for me. Not bothered by it in terms of writing though, but we all have our personal tics.

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Just now, Zorral said:

We all scry the stories as we scry them, and we don't make fun of or attack those who scry differently, right?  

Nah, I'm a good girl now. Couldn't make fun of or attack a fly. No matter how outsized its buzzings. 

Wanna see my belly too?

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5 minutes ago, karaddin said:

I just disliked 'Way of the leaf' from the perspective of "if I were living in WotLand would this name intrigue me, or make me laugh at it's followers?" and it's at the latter end of the spectrum for me. Not bothered by it in terms of writing though, but we all have our personal tics.

Well, you seem to be smack dab in the middle of the WoT populace, in that you find the Way of the Leaf laughable, lol. 

I do feel that as a "Way" it is remarkably thinly described. What I've seen in the show doesn't give me confidence we'll get much more there, either. 

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