Heresy 240: Ten Heretical Years

[Black Crow]

39 minutes ago, asongofheresy said:

True but there are only two Targaryens, Daenerys and Aegon, that could distract us from the Starks, though if one is child of Lyanna then he/she is a Stark too, and the other is a Dayne? 

The "Aegon" you refer to is fan-fiction from the Mummers Farce

[LynnS]

2 minutes ago, HoodedCrow said:

Or the snow melt:)  I used to think that a prophecy would mean that Dany would not die because she is a woman. Tyrion might because he says that he is a half man. Victarion might be the designated dier. But if Jon is already icy dead and he blows it?

I'm just saying... I think he'd blow up real good.  Some people would even like to see that.

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, Melifeather said:

The first five books of the Bible (the Torah) were - supposedly - written down by Moses as if he were God's secretary. The story starts with the creation of the world, and ends with Moses dying on the wrong side of the Jordan (Wall?) and being buried in an unmarked grave. Prior to the word being written down, history was passed down orally. 

An alternate theory for why the Children live on the north side of the Wall...their "Moses" died on the wrong side. The Wall is symbolically the river Jordan. Not even his bones were allowed to be carried across.

The reason why it took the Hebrews so long to reach the promised land was due to their sins. Every time they sinned as a community, Moses prayed for them, and then God forgave them. But God refused to allow Moses to enter the promised land. He could look at it from the top of a mountain, but he wasn't allowed to actually go live there. God's "beef" with Moses was that he sinned six times:

1) Because you sanctified Me not in the midst of the children of Israel.

2) At the very first when I appeared to you, you said 'Oh my Lord send I pray thee by the hand of him whom Thou will send' and you did refuse to obey My commandments to go to Egypt.

3) You accused Me of having only armed Israel instead of aiding them.

4) You said to Israel calling them rebels 'Hear now ye rebels' and did insult My children. 

5) You are risen up in your father's stead an increase of sinful men.

6) Early in his life, Moses had killed an Egyptian named Chanethothes who had been beating two Hebrews.

After Moses saw that God was not going to forgive him, he appeals to the Earth, the Heavens, the sun and moon, the stars and planets, the hills and mountains, Mt Sinai, the rivers, the desert and all the elements of nature, the great sea, and lastly to mankind. All in vain. Kind of sounds like the Reed's Oath.

God became even angrier, because Moses would not accept his fate. God told Moses that he had made two vows: 1) that Moses would die, and 2) that Israel would perish. God said he would be willing to take back one vow, but not both. They finally strike a bargain where Moses is allowed to live a few more years, but he cannot cross the Jordan and he has to let Joshua take over as the leader. Once God begins talking only to Joshua and Joshua won't tell Moses what he said, Moses becomes jealous and tells God that he's ready to die.

So what does all this have to do with the Children living on the north side of the Wall? There must have been a "Moses" figure that led the Children (Hebrews) to "the river Jordan, the Promised Land" where magic would be contained, and was caught on the north side after the Wall went up. Now it couldn't have been a physical barrier at that time - only magical. The choice then was to stay with the magic on the other side. Or maybe he didn't have a choice? Maybe he was banned from crossing like the Nights King? Maybe the Nights King was "Moses" and he was allowed to rule for 13 more years before he had to die?

[LynnS]

3 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

An alternate theory for why the Children live on the north side of the Wall...their "Moses" died on the wrong side. The Wall is symbolically the river Jordan. Not even his bones were allowed to be carried across.

Why is the holy of holies - the Isle of Faces on the wrong side of the Wall?  Or is it the wrong side of the Wall?

[Melifeather]

Just now, LynnS said:

Why is the holy of holies - the Isle of Faces on the wrong side of the Wall?  Or is it the wrong side of the Wall?

Maybe its the reverse of what we are thinking? Maybe everyone migrated from the north down to the south? The Wall is the river Jordan and the south is the Promised Land.

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

And why they gave the Watch a tribute of 100 pieces of dragonglass.  Perhaps this is a reminder that they gave the last hero a weapon.

You need to consider what's actually going on here. 100 pieces of dragonglass [presumably arrowheads included] isn't a gun-running operation, its something symbolic, but what? Are the Children arming the Watch or disarming themselves?

[LynnS]

12 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

You need to consider what's actually going on here. 100 pieces of dragonglass [presumably arrowheads included] isn't a gun-running operation, its something symbolic, but what? Are the Children arming the Watch or disarming themselves?

Agreed, it's symbolic.  Disarming themselves in the context that the Watch has a weapon against the WWers? Or re-enacting the pact/bond between the COTF and First Men?

[alienarea]

2 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

You need to consider what's actually going on here. 100 pieces of dragonglass [presumably arrowheads included] isn't a gun-running operation, its something symbolic, but what? Are the Children arming the Watch or disarming themselves?

To me, it's a symbolic tribute acknowledging their defeat.

IIRC there were a hundred kingdoms of first men around this time. One piece of dragonglass for each kingdom?

If the Night's Watch would have used the dragonglass, it would have been noted somewhere. 

The others hate all forms of life, i.e. they hate the COTF, too. When the COTF have to pay tribute in form of dragonglass, they become more vulnerable themselves. The long dwindling?

What about this: the twelve heroes move out against the others. One of them is a Stark with a wolf (dog to the COTF).

One by one they die, even the dog. The last heroes sword breaks (like Waymar Royce's).

Why should the COTF help the last hero? They don't. They watch as the Others close in on him, but he's a Stark and in his last effort he wargs them. They kill the Others with dragonglass. They kind of help him;) He becomes the king of the long night. Night's King.

[asongofheresy]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

The "Aegon" you refer to is fan-fiction from the Mummers Farce

No, no, I refer to Young Griff as Aegon, as its his name, him and Daenerys are the only Targaryen distractions, I see Blackfyre as none entity in current times even though I root for them for past events. 

[asongofheresy]

@Melifeather s posts makes me realise how different the story of Moses is between Torah and Quran. Quranic Moses does reach the Promised Land and rules it as a mighty God Emperor and Commander, he speaks directly to God and even searches to become immortal. 

[Melifeather]

5 minutes ago, asongofheresy said:

@Melifeather s posts makes me realise how different the story of Moses is between Torah and Quran. Quranic Moses does reach the Promised Land and rules it as a mighty God Emperor and Commander, he speaks directly to God and even searches to become immortal. 

Well he does ask to not die which God interprets as a request to become immortal. That is why he told Moses that either he has to die or Israel will perish.

[Black Crow]

41 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Agreed, it's symbolic.  Disarming themselves in the context that the Watch has a weapon against the WWers? Or re-enacting the pact/bond between the COTF and First Men?

Normally in this sort of giving there are two different processes involved. 

Option [1] between equals the Children deliver up a symbolic 100 pieces of dragonglass or whatever and receive 100 pieces of something else in exchange, before both sides celebrate their peace and amity with feasting and dancing etc

or

[2] the Children are compelled by treaty to acknowledge their submission by delivering up a tribute

This then raises two questions:

Sam tells Jon that he has found a reference or references to the Children giving the Watch 100 pieces of dragonglass every year, but there's nothing about an exchange, which implies we're talking about option [2], but why?

It suggests that the White Walkers were created by or allied to the Children and then compelled [by defeat] to give the Watch, symbolically at least, a means to protect themselves against the White Walkers - the other implication of the figure of 100 pieces of course is that its sufficient to protect a patrol, but not to win a battle

[Black Crow]

17 minutes ago, asongofheresy said:

No, no, I refer to Young Griff as Aegon, as its his name, him and Daenerys are the only Targaryen distractions, I see Blackfyre as none entity in current times even though I root for them for past events. 

Yes but Young Griff isn't a son of Lyanna...

[asongofheresy]

6 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

Well he does ask to not die which God interprets as a request to become immortal. That is why he told Moses that either he has to die or Israel will perish.

Huh that's interesting, in Quran Moses and his nephew have a journey to find source of immortality, to aide them Allah tells Moses about a man who already become immortal after finding the source, the immortal man states Moses can only ask three questions through their journey and nephew can't talk, after Moses uses all his chances to ask questions they part ways, Moses stops by the source to rest but never learns the water there was the thing he searched for, that's how the Quranic kıssa goes. 

 

 

[asongofheresy]

1 minute ago, Black Crow said:

Yes but Young Griff isn't a son of Lyanna...

Maybe, though i do think red wolf of Jon Conington, and sentinel cherry trees around Illyrio's statue are interesting symbolism, along with dying his hair blue for his "mother" - Lyanna is connected to blue not Elia. 

[Tucu]

18 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Normally in this sort of giving there are two different processes involved. 

Option [1] between equals the Children deliver up a symbolic 100 pieces of dragonglass or whatever and receive 100 pieces of something else in exchange, before both sides celebrate their peace and amity with feasting and dancing etc

or

[2] the Children are compelled by treaty to acknowledge their submission by delivering up a tribute

This then raises two questions:

Sam tells Jon that he has found a reference or references to the Children giving the Watch 100 pieces of dragonglass every year, but there's nothing about an exchange, which implies we're talking about option [2], but why?

It suggests that the White Walkers were created by or allied to the Children and then compelled [by defeat] to give the Watch, symbolically at least, a means to protect themselves against the White Walkers - the other implication of the figure of 100 pieces of course is that its sufficient to protect a patrol, but not to win a battle

Sam says a "hundred obsidian daggers every year". One side provided the tools, the other the captives and the trees were kept well fed and calm? Jon's "blood price" was one hundred captives

[Black Crow]

18 minutes ago, Tucu said:

Sam says a "hundred obsidian daggers every year". One side provided the tools, the other the captives and the trees were kept well fed and calm? Jon's "blood price" was one hundred captives

Yep, I'll definitely go with that one. Gendel's children are hungry

[Melifeather]

11 minutes ago, asongofheresy said:

Huh that's interesting, in Quran Moses and his nephew have a journey to find source of immortality, to aide them Allah tells Moses about a man who already become immortal after finding the source, the immortal man states Moses can only ask three questions through their journey and nephew can't talk, after Moses uses all his chances to ask questions they part ways, Moses stops by the source to rest but never learns the water there was the thing he searched for, that's how the Quranic kıssa goes. 

 

 

There are ancient books that are not included in today's Christian Bible. The Council of Nicaea in 325 AD decided which books would be considered scripture. I'm not sure what happened with regards to the Torah as to why it has differences with the Quran, but I assume that's what led Islam to also branch off. 

There are three major branches off the Abrahamic "tree": Judaism, Christian, and Islam. Each of these split into smaller sects. Judaism has Orthodox Judaism, Conservative Judaism, and Reform Judaism. Christianity has Roman Catholicism, Protestantism, and Orthodox Christianity. Islam has Sunni, Shia, and Shi`ite. Of course these sects can be broken down further into even smaller groups, of which you would know way more about the Islam branch than I do.

The ancient Israelite religion was derived from an even older Canaanite or group of Semite religions that goes back prior to the Bronze Age. It started out with the worship of many deities, but evolved into a consistent worship of a single deity while still acknowledging that there were others. It became monotheistic in the Iron Age around the 6th century Before Common Era. Christianity split from Judaism in the 1st century Common Era and spread widely after being adopted by the Roman Empire as the state religion. Correct me if I am wrong, but Islam split from Judaism in the 7th century Common Era when it was founded by Mohammed.

 

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Tucu said:

Sam says a "hundred obsidian daggers every year". One side provided the tools, the other the captives and the trees were kept well fed and calm? Jon's "blood price" was one hundred captives

There is enough room at the Nightfort for 500 captives.

Quote

 

A Storm of Swords - Bran IV

They spent half the day poking through the castle. Some of the towers had fallen down and others looked unsafe, but they climbed the bell tower (the bells were gone) and the rookery (the birds were gone). Beneath the brewhouse they found a vault of huge oaken casks that boomed hollowly when Hodor knocked on them. They found a library (the shelves and bins had collapsed, the books were gone, and rats were everywhere). They found a dank and dim-lit dungeon with cells enough to hold five hundred captives, but when Bran grabbed hold of one of the rusted bars it broke off in his hand. Only one crumbling wall remained of the great hall, the bathhouse seemed to be sinking into the ground, and a huge thornbush had conquered the practice yard outside the armory where black brothers had once labored with spear and shield and sword. The armory and the forge still stood, however, though cobwebs, rats, and dust had taken the places of blades, bellows, and anvil. Sometimes Summer would hear sounds that Bran seemed deaf to, or bare his teeth at nothing, the fur on the back of his neck bristling . . . but the Rat Cook never put in an appearance, nor the seventy-nine sentinels, nor Mad Axe. Bran was much relieved. Maybe it is only a ruined empty castle.

 

Quote

 

A Storm of Swords - Jon IV

"It's made of ice," Jon pointed out.

"You know nothing, Jon Snow. This wall is made o' blood."

 

 

[asongofheresy]

1 hour ago, Melifeather said:

There are ancient books that are not included in today's Christian Bible. The Council of Nicaea in 325 AD decided which books would be considered scripture. I'm not sure what happened with regards to the Torah as to why it has differences with the Quran, but I assume that's what led Islam to also branch off. 

There are three major branches off the Abrahamic "tree": Judaism, Christian, and Islam. Each of these split into smaller sects. Judaism has Orthodox Judaism, Conservative Judaism, and Reform Judaism. Christianity has Roman Catholicism, Protestantism, and Orthodox Christianity. Islam has Sunni, Shia, and Shi`ite. Of course these sects can be broken down further into even smaller groups, of which you would know way more about the Islam branch than I do.

The ancient Israelite religion was derived from an even older Canaanite or group of Semite religions that goes back prior to the Bronze Age. It started out with the worship of many deities, but evolved into a consistent worship of a single deity while still acknowledging that there were others. It became monotheistic in the Iron Age around the 6th century Before Common Era. Christianity split from Judaism in the 1st century Common Era and spread widely after being adopted by the Roman Empire as the state religion. Correct me if I am wrong, but Islam split from Judaism in the 7th century Common Era when it was founded by Mohammed.

 

According to Hadiths Mhmd did start his preaching during 600 something CE but its way too late for Quranic timeline, he should be alive during 300+ CE or that's what some Quranic Muslims like me believe, we also don't think Mhmd was ever present in today's Saudi Arabia and would rather place him in Yemen or Oman, these two countries has the earliest traces of Islam and Yemen has the first Quran manuscripts after all. 

*I am writing prophets name without vowels*