Heresy 240: Ten Heretical Years

[alienarea]

28 minutes ago, LynnS said:

It also puts a question mark beside the tower of joy.  Ned identifies the scent of winter roses in the room where Lyanna died.  She has a black rose in her hand, another variation of the hellebore.  So I doubt the place was the ToJ or Dorne.  It seems more likely that Martin is pointing to the general region closer to Harrenhall since this is the only area we can place them from the books.. 

 

Rhaegar identified Lyanna as the Knight of the Laughing Tree and gave her the Winter Roses as warning. Because Aerys wants the Knight of the Laughing Tree to get punished.

Is this what Ned has in mind when he says Lyanna's wolf blood brought her an early grave?

When Rhaegar is sent to search for the Knight of the Laughing Tree after the tougrney of Harrenhal, hf knows whom and where to look for.

 

[LynnS]

22 minutes ago, alienarea said:

Is this what Ned has in mind when he says Lyanna's wolf blood brought her an early grave

Depends on how you describe wolf blood behavior.  She had a little of it compared to Brandon and probably even less compared to Arya.  The direct cause of her death was childbirth.  So if not Rhaegar, then who had access and opportunity.  I've said before that Ned describes Robert as irresistible to maidens in his youth.  If Lyanna was the focus of a full on charm offensive, hormones, wolf blood, etc; she may have accepted that she would marry Robert after all.

If she died on the Quiet Isle; she didn't have a maester to attend her.  Elder Brother is a skilled healer but before then; they didn't have a skilled healer.  There is a quote about it somewhere, but I can't find it.

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Brienne VI

"Yes, brother." Brienne unpinned her hair and shook it out. "Do you have no women here?"

"Not at present," said Narbert. "Those women who do visit come to us sick or hurt, or heavy with child. The Seven have blessed our Elder Brother with healing hands. He has restored many a man to health that even the maesters could not cure, and many a woman too."

Lyanna had an iron will:

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Eddard VII

The mirth curdled on Robert's face. "The woman tried to forbid me to fight in the melee. She's sulking in the castle now, damn her. Your sister would never have shamed me like that."

"You never knew Lyanna as I did, Robert," Ned told him. "You saw her beauty, but not the iron underneath. She would have told you that you have no business in the melee."

 

Lyanna doesn't sound like a girl who would run off with Rhaegar.

[Sly Wren]

9 hours ago, LynnS said:

Poison kisses!  Why does this bring the faceless men to mind?

Oh, yes--the tie between sweetness and even affection with poison--that's something Martin does a lot.

The other thing that strikes me about the poison kisses is what @Voice pointed out years ago: how Arya likes flowers.

She collects them. Counts all the new ones they find in the Neck. Gathers them up to gift to family. And if they hurt her? Easy fix with mud.

None of that is romance. It's all adventure and exploration and gifts to beloved family. Really think it changes the romantic frame some reader put on the roses.

But the idea that lovely, loving gifts could accidentally be poison? Yes--that fits with the faceless men very well.

9 hours ago, LynnS said:

I still wonder if the medusa in the GoHH dream is Arya with purple serpents in her hair rather than Sansa.

I'm still thinking that's Sansa--and that she may end up pretty poisonous herself to Baelish.

After all, as Merillion insists on telling her, she is a Roadside Rose, dressed in blue.

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

It's interesting that the black hellebore has a connection to Dionysus, the horned god and that Lyanna has a black rose in her hand when she dies.

I'm starting to think that Robert Baratheon may be Jon's father after all.  In spite of the book of lineages and obstructions that we are given to direct the reader elsewhere.  I don't think all of Robert's bastards looked like Robert and that's why the missing bastards are unidentified.  Jon Snow-Storm has a certain appeal.

I doubt very much that Lyanna was left at Harrenhall considering how the tourney ended.  I thinks it's more likely that she went with Ned and Robert back to the Eyrie where she would be safest.  The only opportunity to grab her would be when she travels to Riverrun for Brandon's wedding.  She may have been travelling with him with a stop at the Crossroads Inn while Brandon left the party for a time.  This may be where Rhaegar fell upon her.

It's also possible that she escaped with the help of that wild card, Howland Reed.  I like the idea that she was hidden on the Quiet Isle disguised as a Septa and the room she died in was Elder Brother's cave.   

What bothers me the most about this idea is that GRRM so heavily stressed that Baratheon bastards have black hair and blue eyes. I can't see Jon all of a sudden being the exception to the rule.

I'm still of the opinion that Jon's parents are Ned and Ashara. I acknowledge the parallels that have been brought up under the current thread, and I especially love the bitterblooms analogy, but being familiar with other parallels in the books I also recognize that there are allot of change-ups and mixing of parts. The same elements seem to be there, but not always in the right order or where you'd expect them to be.

I keep returning to the idea of mummers and plays and people acting out certain character roles. Arya is playing the part of Lyanna while Sansa is playing the part of Ashara. Arya became "no one", because Lyanna died. She briefly rode with her Robert (played by Gendry) when she was kidnapped by the Brotherhood Without Banners - a group that is standing in as the Kingswood Brotherhood. The lightning lord, Beric Dondarrion, played the role of Bloodraven, because magic was involved. It all goes back to the tourney at Harrenhal when the wheel of time got reset. That tourney was when history started repeating itself. It's a time loop. I'm not sure what is signified now with having Lady Stoneheart at the head of this group, but apparently she symbolizes the weapon being used against an enemy, and the answer to Howland's prayer for "a way to win".

[Sly Wren]

4 hours ago, Black Crow said:

And Bitterblooms are also about illusions...

As is Bael the Bard--Ygritte says it flat out that Bael claims all the maids he seduced loved him, regardless of the truth. Illusions Bael tells others--and maybe even himself.

But the tale is really much darker. And ends in kinslaying. And the Bael Maid killing herself over that kinslaying--reality showing up and hitting hard.

As you have noted many times, Professor Crow, Martin's made it very clear: we should be very wary of the love stories told by Bards. All illusions.

[LynnS]

3 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

What bothers me the most about this idea is that GRRM so heavily stressed that Baratheon bastards have black hair and blue eyes. I can't see Jon all of a sudden being the exception to the rule.

Robert is back on the table for me.  Either Lyanna is Jon's mother or Ned is Jon's father.  My point about the bastards is that of sixteen bastards, nine are unknown.   I think it's possible they don't all have the Baratheon markers.  If black hair and blue eyes are all you are looking for, then that's all you will find.   GRRM certainly did make a point of removing Robert from the equation and pointing us in Rhaegar's direction.

 

[LynnS]

20 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

The other thing that strikes me about the poison kisses is what @Voice pointed out years ago: how Arya likes flowers.

Hello Sly Wren   Arya's fondness for flowers may be something that reminds Ned of Lyanna.  He tells Robert as much:  Lyanna was fond of ... flowers.  Although I think he was about to say winter roses and had second thoughts about it.

I'm afraid I don't know what Voice said about it.  

20 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

None of that is romance. It's all adventure and exploration and gifts to beloved family. Really think it changes the romantic frame some reader put on the roses.

Yes, this has really changed the way I see that exchange between Rhaegar and Lyanna.  Rhaegar is not the besotted character I thought he might be.  

I never thought of him as speaking in iron tones or having an iron will:

Quote

 

A Feast for Crows - Jaime I

And all for naught. They found only darkness, dust, and rats. And dragons, lurking down below. He remembered the sullen orange glow of the coals in the iron dragon's mouth. The brazier warmed a chamber at the bottom of a shaft where half a dozen tunnels met. On the floor he'd found a scuffed mosaic of the three-headed dragon of House Targaryen done in tiles of black and red. I know you, Kingslayer, the beast seemed to be saying. I have been here all the time, waiting for you to come to me. And it seemed to Jaime that he knew that voice, the iron tones that had once belonged to Rhaegar, Prince of Dragonstone.

 

 He's made of harder stuff.

 

[asongofheresy]

I don't think Lyanna was Knight of the Laughing Tree but Rhaegar may think so

[Frey family reunion]

On 12/27/2021 at 10:55 AM, asongofheresy said:

Like Walys Flowers? 

That would be an interesting twist.  But the question would arise, why the need for deception?

[LynnS]

3 minutes ago, asongofheresy said:

I don't think Lyanna was Knight of the Laughing Tree but Rhaegar may think so

The story says that Rhaegar never discovered the identity of the Tree Knight.  But certainly would have heard about Lyanna confronting the three squires.  Aerys lost face when the Tree Knight won against the knights of those houses when he tells them to teach their squires the meaning of honor.   

[LynnS]

16 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

That would be an interesting twist.  But the question would arise, why the need for deception?

The mysterious missing maester,  According to Lady Dustin was responsible for Rickard's southron ambitions.  Which begs the question:  why was the Citadel involved and are we talking about political factions in the Citadel?  That would seem to be the case with Pycelle and Tywin.  Perhaps Flowers was recalled or eliminated. 

[Frey family reunion]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

Lyanna doesn't sound like a girl who would run off with Rhaegar.

I agree.  Although, I think we need to have a little caution with this assumption.  In GRRM's Dying of the Light, we have a tale of a strong willed independent woman, who leaves a relationship with the protaganist (partly because this relationship was built on the protaganist's own idealized, unrealistic picture of her) only to enter into a relationship with a powerful, charismatic cult leader where she allows herself to become submissive.

[Frey family reunion]

3 hours ago, LynnS said:

It also puts a question mark beside the tower of joy.  Ned identifies the scent of winter roses in the room where Lyanna died.  She has a black rose in her hand, another variation of the hellebore.  So I doubt the place was the ToJ or Dorne.

We still have to answer the question as to why the appendix puts Lyanna's death as occurring in the mountains of Dorne.

[Sly Wren]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

Hello Sly Wren  

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

Arya's fondness for flowers may be something that reminds Ned of Lyanna.  He tells Robert as much:  Lyanna was fond of ... flowers.  Although I think he was about to say winter roses and had second thoughts about it.

Yup! And then, just a few chapter later, he shows how a wild-wolf-maid loves flowers. Seems on point.

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

I'm afraid I don't know what Voice said about it.  

He said basically what I just said. Just wanted to be sure to give credit where it's due. I have OCD issues.

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

Yes, this has really changed the way I see that exchange between Rhaegar and Lyanna.  Rhaegar is not the besotted character I thought he might be.  

I never thought of him as speaking in iron tones or having an iron will:

Yup! Dany buys the love story. But no one who knew Rhaegar ever seems to present him as lusty.

Really think he was likely a lot more like Stannis. Very iron, very singular minded--dangerous.

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

 He's made of harder stuff.

It's one of the reasons I can't write of the "baby sacrifice" theory, even though I do not like it.

[Sly Wren]

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

We still have to answer the question as to why the appendix puts Lyanna's death as occurring in the mountains of Dorne.

Well, if the blue roses do turn out to be hellebore--they grow lots of places and climates. And it was winter. So--can't see how that takes the Red Mountains off the map.

But--Ned could have lied completely about where Lyanna died--the Appendix shows in-world knowledge.

But something about that fight at the toj is clearly tied to Lyanna. Something about Starfall is tied to Jon. Really think it went down in Dorne.

[LynnS]

14 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

Well, if the blue roses do turn out to be hellebore--they grow lots of places and climates. And it was winter. So--can't see how that takes the Red Mountains off the map.

I don't know.  I picture it as desert and mostly arid.  I think it might be too far south.

14 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

But--Ned could have lied completely about where Lyanna died--the Appendix shows in-world knowledge.

It's likely coming from Ned; so it's whatever he wanted people to think and I'm not sure he was entirely truthful; especially with Robert.

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Eddard II

"Treachery was a coin the Targaryens knew well," Robert said. The anger was building in him again. "Lannister paid them back in kind. It was no less than they deserved. I shall not trouble my sleep over it."

"You were not there," Ned said, bitterness in his voice. Troubled sleep was no stranger to him. He had lived his lies for fourteen years, yet they still haunted him at night. "There was no honor in that conquest."

A Game of Thrones - Eddard XIII

"This is the will and word of Robert of House Baratheon, the First of his Name, King of the Andals and all the rest—put in the damn titles, you know how it goes. I do hereby command Eddard of House Stark, Lord of Winterfell and Hand of the King, to serve as Lord Regent and Protector of the Realm upon my … upon my death … to rule in my … in my stead, until my son Joffrey does come of age …"

"Robert …" Joffrey is not your son, he wanted to say, but the words would not come. The agony was written too plainly across Robert's face; he could not hurt him more. So Ned bent his head and wrote, but where the king had said "my son Joffrey," he scrawled "my heir" instead. The deceit made him feel soiled. The lies we tell for love, he thought. May the gods forgive me. "What else would you have me say?"

A Game of Thrones - Eddard XV

He found himself thinking of Robert more and more. He saw the king as he had been in the flower of his youth, tall and handsome, his great antlered helm on his head, his warhammer in hand, sitting his horse like a horned god. He heard his laughter in the dark, saw his eyes, blue and clear as mountain lakes. "Look at us, Ned," Robert said. "Gods, how did we come to this? You here, and me killed by a pig. We won a throne together …"

I failed you, Robert, Ned thought. He could not say the words. I lied to you, hid the truth. I let them kill you.

 

 

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

We still have to answer the question as to why the appendix puts Lyanna's death as occurring in the mountains of Dorne.

And more specifically a rumour that a family tree had been seen showing that Lyanna died at the tower of joy.   

[LynnS]

33 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

Really think he was likely a lot more like Stannis. Very iron, very singular minded--dangerous

Yes, I'm starting to think so.  He's just not the guy who goes off and writes songs somewhere.  He's prosecuting a war he intends to win.  

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Jaime I

"Then guard the king," Ser Jon Darry snapped at him. "When you donned that cloak, you promised to obey."

Rhaegar had put his hand on Jaime's shoulder. "When this battle's done I mean to call a council. Changes will be made. I meant to do it long ago, but . . . well, it does no good to speak of roads not taken. We shall talk when I return."

And this strange dream of Dany's.  I forget that Robert's Rebellion was fought during the winter:

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Daenerys III

That night she dreamt that she was Rhaegar, riding to the Trident. But she was mounted on a dragon, not a horse. When she saw the Usurper's rebel host across the river they were armored all in ice, but she bathed them in dragonfire and they melted away like dew and turned the Trident into a torrent. Some small part of her knew that she was dreaming, but another part exulted. This is how it was meant to be. The other was a nightmare, and I have only now awakened.

One wonders what Rhaegar would have done with dragons if he had them.

[LynnS]

45 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

But something about that fight at the toj is clearly tied to Lyanna. 

It's a dream with a lot of moving parts. 

I've come to think that this last stand of the KG had more to do with their vows than anything else.  Ned says that Arthur Dayne was the finest knight that he has known and there is a recurring theme about what it means to be a true knight starting with the Dunk and Egg stories and carried through in Brienne and Jaimie's arcs.

Brienne says this:

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A Feast for Crows - Brienne I

Jaime would not do that. He was sincere. He gave me the sword, and called it Oathkeeper. Anyway, it made no matter. She had promised Lady Catelyn that she would bring back her daughters, and no promise was as solemn as one sworn to the dead. The younger girl was long dead, Jaime claimed; the Arya the Lannisters sent north to marry Roose Bolton's bastard was a fraud. That left only Sansa. Brienne had to find her.

 She made this promise to Catelyn before she died and thinks it cannot be put aside after her death.

I think the KG at the ToJ take their vows as seriously as Brienne and they will not kneel to the usurper.  Their loyalty is still with Aerys even though he is dead and their vow as KG means that they will be loyal until their own death.

Ned might be conjuring up this guilty dream of the KG because of promises he has not kept.

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Eddard XV

When he kept very still, his leg did not hurt so much, so he did his best to lie unmoving. For how long he could not say. There was no sun and no moon. He could not see to mark the walls. Ned closed his eyes and opened them; it made no difference. He slept and woke and slept again. He did not know which was more painful, the waking or the sleeping. When he slept, he dreamed: dark disturbing dreams of blood and broken promises. When he woke, there was nothing to do but think, and his waking thoughts were worse than nightmares. The thought of Cat was as painful as a bed of nettles. He wondered where she was, what she was doing. He wondered whether he would ever see her again

.I think the TOJ was a convenient meeting place and a challenge was issued to Ned for a form of trial by champion.  If the KG felt soiled because they were unable to protect their king and the prince; then they can subject themselves to trial and be judged by the gods.  Ned perhaps has an even bigger grievance with the crown than Robert.  Ned was told when and where to meet them.  Following the form of a trial by seven, he brings six good men with him.  The KG are determined to die fighting as they should have done for their king.  They refuse to flee or turn coat.

So the dream starts with this final confrontation and then switches to:

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Eddard X

"And now it begins," said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light.

"No," Ned said with sadness in his voice. "Now it ends." As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow, he could hear Lyanna screaming. "Eddard!" she called. A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death.

Yet we know that Lyanna was so weak she could only whisper.

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Eddard I

"She should be on a hill somewhere, under a fruit tree, with the sun and clouds above her and the rain to wash her clean."

"I was with her when she died," Ned reminded the king. "She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father." He could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. After that he remembered nothing. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his. Ned could recall none of it. "I bring her flowers when I can," he said. "Lyanna was … fond of flowers."

 

Lyanna's screaming signals a transition into the mystical signs and portents part of the dream:

A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death.

Is Lyanna filling the role of bean sidhe or banshee in Ned's dream?

Quote

A banshee (/ˈbænʃiː/ BAN-shee; Modern Irish bean sí, from Old Irish: ben síde [bʲen ˈʃiːðʲe], "woman of the fairy mound" or "fairy woman") is a female spirit in Irish folklore who heralds the death of a family member,[1] usually by wailing, shrieking, or keening.

 

[Frey family reunion]

4 minutes ago, LynnS said:

It's a dream with a lot of moving parts. 

I agree, and I’m highly skeptical of Lyanna being at the tower of joy.  But she could have died in the mountains of Dorne without having died at the tower of joy.  After all, Starfall is smack dab in the middle of the red mountains.  And it would explain Eddard’s strange trip to Starfall after having killed Starfall’s favorite son, while technically still in the midst of a war with Dorne.  He wasn’t traveling to Starfall to return a sword, he was traveling there because Lyanna was there.