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Heresy 240: Ten Heretical Years


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1 hour ago, Sly Wren said:

Something about Starfall is tied to Jon.

I don't think we can deny that he was there.  We are told that he had the same milk mother as Ned Dayne.  Probably a woman named Wylla.  The question is how did he get there and was Lyanna ever there?  Lyanna and/or Jon were either taken there or smuggled there to hide them.  Who would do that?  Rhaegar or Ned are the only options. Unless Jon is Ashara and Ned's.

:dunno:.  

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9 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

I agree, and I’m highly skeptical of Lyanna being at the tower of joy.  But she could have died in the mountains of Dorne without having died at the tower of joy.  After all, Starfall is smack dab in the middle of the red mountains.  And it would explain Eddard’s strange trip to Starfall after having killed Starfall’s favorite son, while technically still in the midst of a war with Dorne.  He wasn’t traveling to Starfall to return a sword, he was traveling there because Lyanna was there.

Sure.  Or to get Jon.

If it turns out that Jon is a dragon and a wolf; I'm still on team ice dragon.

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1 hour ago, Sly Wren said:

Really think he was likely a lot more like Stannis. Very iron, very singular minded--dangerous.

1 hour ago, Sly Wren said:

It's one of the reasons I can't write of the "baby sacrifice" theory, even though I do not like it.

The comparisons to Stannis is one of the things that leads me to the baby sacrifice theory.  Rhaegar was obsessed (one might say consumed) by Summerhall.  Summerhall was Aegon V’s brain child.  Aegon V was working off of writings from Asshai in his attempt to return dragons.

Melisandre who is also operating from Asshai lore is also consumed with bringing back dragons.  She seems to think that child sacrifice is necessary.  

It’s not a stretch that Aegon V came to the same conclusion.  Which might explain the mystery betrayal at Summerhall.  Duncan the Tall put a stop to it.  Much like years later, Davos put a stop to Melisandre’s plans for Edric Storm.

So if Rhaegar was attempting to recreate Summerhall, it might explain why Eddard travels to Rhaegar’s tower of joy to put an end to it.  Eddard finds the murder of children unspeakable.  If the Kingsguards were tasked with finishing the job Rhaegar started then this explains why the encounter at the tower of joy had to be a battle to the death.

This Targaryen obsession with dragons might also be the one thing that may have brought Rhaegar and Aerys together after Harrenhal.  Both were obsessed with the idea of dragons returning.  Which is why Aerys seems to be ok with his Kingsguards leaving his side to go with Rhaegar.  The Kingsguards were on a mission approved by the King.  Which explains why they were so cocksure that they had remained goods Kingsguards throughout the war, even though they weren’t fighting the war or protecting the king.

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6 hours ago, LynnS said:

It's interesting that the black hellebore has a connection to Dionysus, the horned god and that Lyanna has a black rose in her hand when she dies.

I'm starting to think that Robert Baratheon may be Jon's father after all.  In spite of the book of lineages and obstructions that we are given to direct the reader elsewhere.  I don't think all of Robert's bastards looked like Robert and that's why the missing bastards are unidentified.  Jon Snow-Storm has a certain appeal.

I doubt very much that Lyanna was left at Harrenhall considering how the tourney ended.  I thinks it's more likely that she went with Ned and Robert back to the Eyrie where she would be safest.  The only opportunity to grab her would be when she travels to Riverrun for Brandon's wedding.  She may have been travelling with him with a stop at the Crossroads Inn while Brandon left the party for a time.  This may be where Rhaegar fell upon her.

It's also possible that she escaped with the help of that wild card, Howland Reed.  I like the idea that she was hidden on the Quiet Isle disguised as a Septa and the room she died in was Elder Brother's cave.   

The Dionysus=Bob takes me back to the chapter in which Jaffer and Othor awake. In the same chapter we have 3 significant events that might be correlated in GRRM's mind:

-The news of Bob's death and Ned imprisonment reach The Wall (and Jon)

-The weather changes marking the end of the "spirit summer":

Quote

The old men called this weather spirit summer, and said it meant the season was giving up its ghosts at last. After this the cold would come, they warned, and a long summer always meant a long winter. This summer had lasted ten years. Jon had been a babe in arms when it began.

<...>

They know, Jon realized. "My father is no traitor," he said hoarsely. Even the words stuck in his throat, as if to choke him. The wind was rising, and it seemed colder in the yard than it had when he'd gone in. Spirit summer was drawing to an end.

-The wights attack

 

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1 hour ago, LynnS said:

I don't know.  I picture it as desert and mostly arid.  I think it might be too far south.

Maybe--but according the "infallible" Wikipedia, Hellebore varieties grow in southern Italy, southern Greece, Turkey, into the middle east--place that can get pretty hot and dry.

No idea how cold Dorne gets in winter, let alone how realistic Martin is being if the winter roses are hellebore--but Dorne really might be workable. :dunno:

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

t's likely coming from Ned; so it's whatever he wanted people to think and I'm not sure he was entirely truthful; especially with Robert.

OH! Absolutely! Unless Lyanna died in that tower, there's a whopping good chance Ned is lying. If she did die in childbirth, he's clearly lied about that, too.

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

Yes, I'm starting to think so.  He's just not the guy who goes off and writes songs somewhere.  He's prosecuting a war he intends to win.  

Yup. I tried to figure out ways Rhaegar would be "innocent" of the mess of the war--can't do it anymore. Really think he fully intended for that war to happen. To use it to get rid of Aerys.

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

One wonders what Rhaegar would have done with dragons if he had them.

He would have used them. No question. Look at his creepy fascination with Summerhall.

Yet another reason I really think Dany is his--they are dragons. Entitled. High-minded. And dangerous.

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1 hour ago, LynnS said:

It's a dream with a lot of moving parts. 

I've come to think that this last stand of the KG had more to do with their vows than anything else.  Ned says that Arthur Dayne was the finest knight that he has known and there is a recurring theme about what it means to be a true knight starting with the Dunk and Egg stories and carried through in Brienne and Jaimie's arcs.

Well, I think you are probably aware of my Dayne-blindness by now--but yes. I think Ned's misery about that fight is directly tied to Arthur--the only one he speaks of admiring directly. Even Bran notes it. Arthur, the last one Ned sees before the fight starts and Lyanna screams.

That last fight--pretty sure Ned thought it was a surrender. The KG either lied or decided to fight anyway. True knights, to the best of their abilities. As you say--it comes up again and again. The True Knight vs. the Smiling Knight or the Night's King. The three KG are trying to be true knights.

But Arthur--he matters most to Ned. And Ned--he matters a lot to the Daynes.

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

Ned might be conjuring up this guilty dream of the KG because of promises he has not kept.

Nice! though this doesn't preclude that part of those promises might be tied to this moment. That the outcome of the fight led to a need for promises. . .

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

I think the TOJ was a convenient meeting place and a challenge was issued to Ned for a form of trial by champion.  If the KG felt soiled because they were unable to protect their king and the prince; then they can subject themselves to trial and be judged by the gods.  Ned perhaps has an even bigger grievance with the crown than Robert.  Ned was told when and where to meet them.  Following the form of a trial by seven, he brings six good men with him.  The KG are determined to die fighting as they should have done for their king.  They refuse to flee or turn coat.

:agree:Though I also think there's a whopping good chance the 3KG arranged this "surrender"/Parlay themselves. And that's why Ned came with a small force. The KG are like Jon being sent to kill Mance: no chance to win, but gonna do their best. Like Dunk trying to parlay with the Widow--that one works out, but really could have failed.

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

Lyanna's screaming signals a transition into the mystical signs and portents part of the dream:

A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death.

Is Lyanna filling the role of bean sidhe or banshee in Ned's dream?

Loving the bold! And it works--especially with the "blue as the eyes of death." I looked a while ago--that's the only time something has been compared to the Others' eyes. Lyanna's cry, a banshee cry, over the horror of this fight and what it will bring? And (for me) a portent of the horror of the death of Arthur, the KG Ned sees last before the fight, the only KG Ned really mourns. . .

So--a portent for the return of the Others?

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

I agree, and I’m highly skeptical of Lyanna being at the tower of joy.  But she could have died in the mountains of Dorne without having died at the tower of joy.  After all, Starfall is smack dab in the middle of the red mountains.  And it would explain Eddard’s strange trip to Starfall after having killed Starfall’s favorite son, while technically still in the midst of a war with Dorne.  He wasn’t traveling to Starfall to return a sword, he was traveling there because Lyanna was there.

:agree:I know you think Jon was probably at the tower, but I think he and Lyanna were at Starfall.

I do think he also returned Arthur's sword out of honor. But Arthur may have had enough breath to tell Ned where Lyanna was . .

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1 hour ago, LynnS said:

I don't think we can deny that he was there.  We are told that he had the same milk mother as Ned Dayne.  Probably a woman named Wylla.  The question is how did he get there and was Lyanna ever there?  Lyanna and/or Jon were either taken there or smuggled there to hide them.  Who would do that?  Rhaegar or Ned are the only options. Unless Jon is Ashara and Ned's.

:dunno:.  

My money's on Lyanna was a useful hostage who ended up pregnant due to mutual lust--my money's on Arthur. This created a big problem for Rhaegar: pregnant Lyanna was a much worse bargaining hostage than virginal Lyanna.

Either way--they decided to hide Lyanna the hostage at the extremely secluded Starfall. And Jon was born there.

Maybe. :dunno:

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

The comparisons to Stannis is one of the things that leads me to the baby sacrifice theory.  Rhaegar was obsessed (one might say consumed) by Summerhall.  Summerhall was Aegon V’s brain child.  Aegon V was working off of writings from Asshai in his attempt to return dragons.

This and the rest of your post has gotta be on the table--especially considering Rhaegar's Summerhall creepiness.

I just have a really hard time with Ned's neutral attitude towards Rhaeagar if this was the plan.

And have a hard time with why Ned showed up with only a few companions--seemed like he would have had a lot more people to make absolutely sure they won. The small numbers make better sense with a parlay . . . at least to me.

But. . . no way to rule out that Rhaegar might have contemplated your ideas. Just no way to eliminate it without the next books. No way I can see, at least.

 

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23 minutes ago, Tucu said:

The Dionysus=Bob takes me back to the chapter in which Jaffer and Othor awake. In the same chapter we have 3 significant events that might be correlated in GRRM's mind:

-The news of Bob's death and Ned imprisonment reach The Wall (and Jon)

-The weather changes marking the end of the "spirit summer":

-The wights attack

 

Very cool! One way or another, Horned God Robert's death is a shift.

And Ned, a Night's King Stark being imprisoned and soon to be sacrificed by an unjust king and his unjust executioner (using Payne means Joff does NOT follow Ned's teachings on Justice)--it does feel like that might be speeding up the turn to Winter.

The turn to Winter's been happening for a while--but that set of deaths, arguably could even call them "sacrifices"--with those deaths, Winter comes sooner.

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1 hour ago, Sly Wren said:

Maybe--but according the "infallible" Wikipedia, Hellebore varieties grow in southern Italy, southern Greece, Turkey, into the middle east--place that can get pretty hot and dry.

Sure, could be.  But we do know that Ned identifies the scent of winter roses in the room where Lyanna died.

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Eddard I

"I was with her when she died," Ned reminded the king. "She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father." He could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses.

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Eddard XV

Ned Stark reached out his hand to grasp the flowery crown, but beneath the pale blue petals the thorns lay hidden. He felt them clawing at his skin, sharp and cruel, saw the slow trickle of blood run down his fingers, and woke, trembling, in the dark.

Promise me, Ned, his sister had whispered from her bed of blood. She had loved the scent of winter roses.

 

1 hour ago, Sly Wren said:

Well, I think you are probably aware of my Dayne-blindness by now

That would also be interesting.  I'm not opposed to it.  

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1 hour ago, Sly Wren said:

I just have a really hard time with Ned's neutral attitude towards Rhaeagar if this was the plan

I can go into further detail in the next thread, but I’m not sure how neutral Eddard is towards Rhaegar.  All we have is his thought that he hadn’t thought of Rhaegar in years and that he doubted Rhaegar would have frequented whorehouses. 

But he flat out tells Robert that Rhaegar’s death at the Trident served as vengeance for Lyanna.  In the context of that conversation, I don’t think Eddard was lying.  I think if he hadn’t actually believed that he would have just remained silent on the issue.

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3 hours ago, LynnS said:

I've come to think that this last stand of the KG had more to do with their vows than anything else.  Ned says that Arthur Dayne was the finest knight that he has known and there is a recurring theme about what it means to be a true knight starting with the Dunk and Egg stories and carried through in Brienne and Jaimie's arcs.

How about this: Arthur was the one mortally wounding Lyanna by reflex / accident when he accompanies Rhaegar to search for the Knight of the Laughing Tree (her wolfblood got her killed). Ned and Howland are with her. Rhaegar stops the fight and allows Ned and Howland to leave with Lyanna (that's why Ned is always fond of Rhaegar). Howland brings Lyanna to the Quiet Isle, but she dies there (that's why her bones are at Winterfell). Meanwhile, Ned and Rhaegar come up with the story that Lyanna eloped with Rhaegar, not thinking it through (Brandon!). Because both don't want her to marry Robert, for different reasons. Fast forward to the ToJ. Ned is riding for Dorne because Ashara gave birth to their child. They run into the three kingsguard. Arthur knew Ned would be coming because of Ashara, and where to wait for him.

Their dialogue - now it begins - now it ends is their continuation of their encounter when Lyanna died.

Arthur allows Ned to kill him, because Howland reminds Arthur that he killed Lyanna. 

Jon has to be Ned's and Ashara's so he can claim Dawn. A very common trope.

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46 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

I can go into further detail in the next thread, but I’m not sure how neutral Eddard is towards Rhaegar.  All we have is his thought that he hadn’t thought of Rhaegar in years and that he doubted Rhaegar would have frequented whorehouses. 

But he flat out tells Robert that Rhaegar’s death at the Trident served as vengeance for Lyanna.  In the context of that conversation, I don’t think Eddard was lying.  I think if he hadn’t actually believed that he would have just remained silent on the issue.

Sure I thought I had lost interest in XYZ stuff. Not anymore.  :D  Time for a rethink.  Next thread?  I promise an open mind.

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14 hours ago, alienarea said:

Their dialogue - now it begins - now it ends is their continuation of their encounter when Lyanna died

This rubs up against my bias that Ser Arthur was a true knight, one who is worthy of the Dawn Sword. A true knight protects women and children and I think this is why Ned sees him as the finest knight he has known.

Howland's intervention is a big question mark but I'm loathe to think he stabbed Arthur in the back to save Ned.  He stopped the fight in some way.  I can't imagine that either Ned or Arthur were uninjured in the melee.  Perhaps Arthur was already mortally wounded. 

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21 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

We still have to answer the question as to why the appendix puts Lyanna's death as occurring in the mountains of Dorne.

The appendix also lists Ned as Jon's father and yet many don't believe that either. Not to say that I believe Lyanna died in the mountains of Dorne, but rather the appendix simply lists the current assumptions. It's not the place to contradict the text.

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1 hour ago, Melifeather said:

The appendix also lists Ned as Jon's father and yet many don't believe that either. Not to say that I believe Lyanna died in the mountains of Dorne, but rather the appendix simply lists the current assumptions. It's not the place to contradict the text.

I understand that.  But then why would there be an assumption that Lyanna died in the mountains of Dorne?  Where would that come from?

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36 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

I understand that.  But then why would there be an assumption that Lyanna died in the mountains of Dorne?  Where would that come from?

The description of the red cliffs of Dorne Ned saw in his fever dream.

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