Heresy 240: Ten Heretical Years

[LynnS]

Coming back to this dream:

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A Game of Thrones - Bran III

Finally he looked north. He saw the Wall shining like blue crystal, and his bastard brother Jon sleeping alone in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him. And he looked past the Wall, past endless forests cloaked in snow, past the frozen shore and the great blue-white rivers of ice and the dead plains where nothing grew or lived. North and north and north he looked, to the curtain of light at the end of the world, and then beyond that curtain. He looked deep into the heart of winter, and then he cried out, afraid, and the heat of his tears burned on his cheeks.

Now you know, the crow whispered as it sat on his shoulder. Now you know why you must live.

Because winter is coming.

Bran looked at the crow on his shoulder, and the crow looked back. It had three eyes, and the third eye was full of a terrible knowledge. Bran looked down. There was nothing below him now but snow and cold and death, a frozen wasteland where jagged blue-white spires of ice waited to embrace him. They flew up at him like spears. He saw the bones of a thousand other dreamers impaled upon their points. He was desperately afraid.

 

The curtain of light is that other wall that holds back the darkness and keeps the heart of darkness and soul of ice at bay.  Bran doesn't just see the heart of darkness beyond the curtain; he sees the bones of a thousand dreamers impaled by spears of ice.  

D&D make something of spears of ice, but they put such a weapon into the hands of the Night King.  Who knows what GRRM told them about it.

It does make me think there is more to the dreamers impaled by spears of ice confined by the curtain of light.  It's not the bones Bran sees but the souls of of potential Gseers.

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A Feast for Crows - The Prophet

That man is dead. Aeron had drowned and been reborn from the sea, the god's own prophet. No mortal man could frighten him, no more than the darkness could . . . nor memories, the bones of the soul. The sound of a door opening, the scream of a rusted iron hinge. Euron has come again. It did not matter. He was the Damphair priest, beloved of the god.

 

So souls of Gseers pierced by ice and confined in the heart of darkness by a wall of light.  A thousand of them.  I think these are the bulk of the missing White Walkers.

[LynnS]

What is the heart of darkness, the soul of ice?  Perhaps it is one of the most powerful Gseers of all times.  One that takes the sustained and combined effort of "giants in the earth" to confine it and hold it at bay.  The heart of darkness constantly tests the strength of the walls looking for weakness and means escape. The appearance of WWs in the prologue of GoT suggests that the wall of light is weakening and breaches have been made.  

It seems that Bran has come a little late to shore up the breaches.  

[LynnS]

More random thoughts on the Horn of Joramun....

What is it?  A binding horn.

What does it do?  Wakes giants in the earth and binds them to the horn.

What are giants in the earth?  Gseers, perhaps even Gseers who have long gone into the deepest roots of the trees, into the earth.  It calls them or wakes them to serve a purpose.

What purpose?  To maintain the wards on the Walls.

Can Gseers be bound by something.  Yes, A Gseer is bound to the Wall.  The Black Gate.

Why is the horn broken?  So it can't be sounded again.

What happens if it is sounded again?  It will put the giants in the earth back to sleep and the walls will fall.

Are all Gseers equal?  No, some are greater and more powerful than others,

 

 

[alienarea]

4 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I think this is missing the point. We have a Valyrian prophecy out there of a Prince that was Promised and some Targaryens getting excited because they've been told that the lucky ticket will be drawn by someone belonging to a particular branch of their family - and this information is supposedly coming not from Valyrian, far less a Targaryen source but from a Westerosi woods witch 

If you believe this is a lucky ticket, you have not been paying attention ;)

[Black Crow]

I don't believe its a lucky ticket, but unfortunately there are are a lot oh hopefuls out there...

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

More random thoughts on the Horn of Joramun....

What is it?  A binding horn.

What does it do?  Wakes giants in the earth and binds them to the horn.

What are giants in the earth?  Gseers, perhaps even Gseers who have long gone into the deepest roots of the trees, into the earth.  It calls them or wakes them to serve a purpose.

What purpose?  To maintain the wards on the Walls.

Can Gseers be bound by something.  Yes, A Gseer is bound to the Wall.  The Black Gate.

Why is the horn broken?  So it can't be sounded again.

What happens if it is sounded again?  It will put the giants in the earth back to sleep and the walls will fall.

Are all Gseers equal?  No, some are greater and more powerful than others,

 

 

but all is metaphor...

[LynnS]

23 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

but all is metaphor...

I'll stick with it until a better one comes along.  

[Matthew.]

21 hours ago, LongRider said:

So, the wilding Woods Witches we’ve heard about don’t seem to be as deceitful and cruel as our Mellie. 

I would agree, and since we've actually met the Ghost of High Heart, and had a taste of her personality, I'm not given the impression that she would would engage in such a deception, especially since the Targaryens already seem to believe they would produce tPtwP anyway; perhaps this is overly cynical, but I read that nugget of information about whose line tPtwP will come from as a narrative choice by GRRM to narrow the candidates for the reader.

In addition, I see no issue with a woods witch having green dreams about a (supposedly) Valyrian prophecy--after all, the House of the Undying shows visions of the Red Wedding half a world away, so it doesn't seem as though geography or culture are limiting factors on prophetic visions.

Particularly when the prophecy will likely be highly relevant to Westeros, regardless of whether its about a hero meeting the Others in battle, or about Dany coming west with dragons as a terrifying conqueror.

[LynnS]

Speaking of metaphor,  what is Moqorro talking about:

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A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion VIII

"Someone told me that the night is dark and full of terrors. What do you see in those flames?"

"Dragons," Moqorro said in the Common Tongue of Westeros. He spoke it very well, with hardly a trace of accent. No doubt that was one reason the high priest Benerro had chosen him to bring the faith of R'hllor to Daenerys Targaryen. "Dragons old and young, true and false, bright and dark. And you. A small man with a big shadow, snarling in the midst of all."

 

Here's what Dany says about dragons:

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A Game of Thrones - Daenerys V

The sound Viserys Targaryen made when that hideous iron helmet covered his face was like nothing human. His feet hammered a frantic beat against the dirt floor, slowed, stopped. Thick globs of molten gold dripped down onto his chest, setting the scarlet silk to smoldering … yet no drop of blood was spilled.

He was no dragon, Dany thought, curiously calm. Fire cannot kill a dragon.

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A Game of Thrones - Daenerys IV

Irri fetched the egg with the deep green shell, bronze flecks shining amid its scales as she turned it in her small hands. Dany curled up on her side, pulling the sandsilk cloak across her and cradling the egg in the hollow between her swollen belly and small, tender breasts. She liked to hold them. They were so beautiful, and sometimes just being close to them made her feel stronger, braver, as if somehow she were drawing strength from the stone dragons locked inside.

She was lying there, holding the egg, when she felt the child move within her … as if he were reaching out, brother to brother, blood to blood. "You are the dragon," Dany whispered to him, "the true dragon. I know it. I know it." And she smiled, and went to sleep dreaming of home.

 

 

[Black Crow]

19 hours ago, Matthew. said:

In addition, I see no issue with a woods witch having green dreams about a (supposedly) Valyrian prophecy--after all, the House of the Undying shows visions of the Red Wedding half a world away, so it doesn't seem as though geography or culture are limiting factors on prophetic visions.

Particularly when the prophecy will likely be highly relevant to Westeros, regardless of whether its about a hero meeting the Others in battle, or about Dany coming west with dragons as a terrifying conqueror.

The problem with the Targaryen prophecies is what they actually mean to different people

In simple terms, from a Targaryen point of view it relates to the glory of their house, a return of the dragons and ultimately Danaerys the Dragonlord restored to the Iron Throne

From a Westerosi point of view  [and this includes the old races and everyone associated with them] they literally relate to a return of Fire and Blood

[Frey family reunion]

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

Speaking of metaphor,  what is Moqorro talking about:

I’m going to first go on the premise that Moqorro is talking about a future event, as opposed to people Tyrion had necessarily been around in the past.

Going on the assumption that Dany will make her way to Westeros, then my guess is Tyrion will make his way back there as well.

So who are the dragons?  Dany obviously.  She is also young, and has been referred to as bright in the same book that Moqorro’s prophecy occurs:

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On one hip he wore a stiletto, on the other a Dothraki arakh.  “Bright queen,” he said, “you have grown more beautiful in my absence.  How is this thing possible?”

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When Dany made her descent, Resnais and Skahaz dropped to their knees.  “Your Worship shines so brightly you will blind every man who dares to look upon you,” said Resnais.  

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Dead, every one, yet he still lived, who had sworn to protect them.  And now Daenerys, his bright shining child queen.

Likewise, we have Young Griff who is roughly as young as Dany is also described as bright.

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“My lord does have one prize to offer,” Haldon Halfmaester pointed out.  “Prince Aegon’s hand.  A marriage alliance, to bring some great House to our banners.”  

A bride for our bright prince.

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“Must?” Tyrion made a tsking sound.  “That is not a word queens like to hear.  You are her perfect prince, agreed, bright and bold and comely as any maid could wish.

So those two certainly fit the bill for young, bright dragons.  The qualifier true and false then might apply as well.  As you mentioned in your quote Dany thinks that Viserys manner of death proved that he’s no true dragon.  

I think true/false probably has less to do with some type of legal legitimacy (legal fiction) to the Throne than it does with the ability to bond with the dragons.  So Dany may be the true dragon as opposed to Young Griff.  

Or perhaps it has to do with identities, who wears false ones and who wears true.  In that case we may find that both may be considered false, if Dany’s origin is not as she believes it to be.

Neither Dany nor Young Griff really fit the bill for old and dark.  However, Brynden Rivers (the white dragon) fits the bill for both.  It’s hard to get any older than Brynden.  And as for dark, he has been called the “whisperer in the darkness”.  And as a an added bonus, we’re told that he wore the sword Dark Sister.

I won’t include Jon here, but I suppose it’s possible we’ll wait and see.  He would be young and dark, I guess, and perhaps true.

But if this is true, then it does raise an interesting picture, that we’re looking at a war between dragons, and not necessarily just between Dany and Young Griff, but somehow Brynden Rivers may figure in as well.

[LynnS]

21 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

But if this is true, then it does raise an interesting picture, that we’re looking at a war between dragons, and not necessarily just between Dany and Young Griff, but somehow Brynden Rivers may figure in as well.

Brilliant!  Great post! I have to go out but you've triggered some interesting possibilities. 

[LongRider]

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

But if this is true, then it does raise an interesting picture, that we’re looking at a war between dragons, and not necessarily just between Dany and Young Griff, but somehow Brynden Rivers may figure in as well.

I like it!

[Melifeather]

On 12/20/2021 at 8:52 AM, LynnS said:

More random thoughts on the Horn of Joramun....

What is it?  A binding horn.

What does it do?  Wakes giants in the earth and binds them to the horn.

What are giants in the earth?  Gseers, perhaps even Gseers who have long gone into the deepest roots of the trees, into the earth.  It calls them or wakes them to serve a purpose.

What purpose?  To maintain the wards on the Walls.

Can Gseers be bound by something.  Yes, A Gseer is bound to the Wall.  The Black Gate.

Why is the horn broken?  So it can't be sounded again.

What happens if it is sounded again?  It will put the giants in the earth back to sleep and the walls will fall.

Are all Gseers equal?  No, some are greater and more powerful than others,

 

 

Surely someone brought up the Battle at Jericho where the walls were brought down by ram's horns? The Israelites marched around the walls of the city once a day for six days carrying the Ark of the Covenant before them, and seven times on the seventh day. Their priests blew ram's horns and the Israelites shouted and then the walls "came a-crumb-ba-lin down". To address Black Crow's point, archeologists have failed to find any evidence that Jericho's walls fell and have concluded that the story is nationalistic propaganda. Biblical scholars believe the intention of the story is primarily theological in detailing how Israel and her leaders are judged by their obedience to the teachings and laws (the covenant) set down in the Book of Deuteronomy.

That being said, according to Wikipedia, British Royal Engineer Charles Warren in 1868 named Tell es-Sultan as being the site of Jericho. In 1930–1936, John Garstang conducted excavations there and discovered the remains of a network of collapsed walls which he dated to about 1400 BCE. Kathleen Kenyon re-excavated the site over 1952–1958 and demonstrated that the destruction occurred at an earlier time during a well-attested Egyptian campaign against the Hyksos of that period, and that Jericho had been deserted throughout the mid-late 13th century BCE, the supposed time of Joshua's battle. Sources differ as to what date Kenyon instead proposed; either ca. 1500 BC or ca. 1580 BC. Kenyon's work was corroborated in 1995 by radiocarbon tests which dated the destruction level to the late 17th or 16th centuries BCE. A small unwalled settlement was rebuilt in the 15th century BCE, but the tell was unoccupied from the late 15th century until the 10th/9th centuries BCE.

[Matthew.]

3 hours ago, Black Crow said:

In simple terms, from a Targaryen point of view it relates to the glory of their house, a return of the dragons and ultimately Danaerys the Dragonlord restored to the Iron Throne

From a Westerosi point of view  [and this includes the old races and everyone associated with them] they literally relate to a return of Fire and Blood

Sure, and arguably this notion might be reinforced by the Stallion that Mounts the World--which could be the same figure, viewed through the perspective of what the Dotharki idealize.

I increasingly suspect that there isn't some "trick" involved with the prophecy here, where Dany (or, alternately, Rhaego, if he was reborn in the dragons) seems to fit so many of the portents, only to turn out to be a red herring. 

Rather, it may be that GRRM is exploring what it would look like to have a literal fire messiah roaming around on Planetos, and what it looks like is both wonderous and terrifying. Dany is not strictly heroic or villainous, she's revolutionary, upending old (and evil) institutions, and necessarily leaves a certain amount of chaos and death in her wake.
 

[LynnS]

20 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Neither Dany nor Young Griff really fit the bill for old and dark.  However, Brynden Rivers (the white dragon) fits the bill for both.  It’s hard to get any older than Brynden.  And as for dark, he has been called the “whisperer in the darkness”.  And as a an added bonus, we’re told that he wore the sword Dark Sister

If Mel is the daughter or BR and Shierra Seastar, then she would also qualify as a old dragon.  As the mother of shadows she is both bright and dark:

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A Clash of Kings - Davos II

There was no answer but a soft rustling. And then a light bloomed amidst the darkness.

Davos raised a hand to shield his eyes, and his breath caught in his throat. Melisandre had thrown back her cowl and shrugged out of the smothering robe. Beneath, she was naked, and huge with child. Swollen breasts hung heavy against her chest, and her belly bulged as if near to bursting. "Gods preserve us," he whispered, and heard her answering laugh, deep and throaty. Her eyes were hot coals, and the sweat that dappled her skin seemed to glow with a light of its own. Melisandre shone.

Panting, she squatted and spread her legs. Blood ran down her thighs, black as ink. Her cry might have been agony or ecstasy or both. And Davos saw the crown of the child's head push its way out of her. Two arms wriggled free, grasping, black fingers coiling around Melisandre's straining thighs, pushing, until the whole of the shadow slid out into the world and rose taller than Davos, tall as the tunnel, towering above the boat. He had only an instant to look at it before it was gone, twisting between the bars of the portcullis and racing across the surface of the water, but that instant was long enough.

 

According to Mel shadows can't exist without light: 

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A Clash of Kings - Davos II

"Shadow?" Davos felt his flesh prickling. "A shadow is a thing of darkness."

"You are more ignorant than a child, ser knight. There are no shadows in the dark. Shadows are the servants of light, the children of fire. The brightest flame casts the darkest shadows."

 

So perhaps there is an inherent duality in dragons, that they are both light and dark.  Which alludes to conflicts of the heat.

But is Mel, true or false?

[alienarea]

Quentyn may have been a dragon young and false.

What about Jaime and Cersei? They may be true or false dragons.

[Black Crow]

Perhaps a rather too obvious way of looking at this is that it isn't just that

"There are no shadows in the dark. Shadows are the servants of light, the children of fire. The brightest flame casts the darkest shadows."

There is not merely a duality as in Ice and Fire. A shadow is directly linked to the light that creates it. They are related. They are brothers [or sisters] and perhaps literally so

 

[LynnS]

51 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Perhaps a rather too obvious way of looking at this is that it isn't just that

"There are no shadows in the dark. Shadows are the servants of light, the children of fire. The brightest flame casts the darkest shadows."

There is not merely a duality as in Ice and Fire. A shadow is directly linked to the light that creates it. They are related. They are brothers [or sisters] and perhaps literally so

 

One can't exist without the other or they are dependent on each other to exist.  Which may be the basic conundrum of ice and fire. 

Which is why I think the resolution has to be about melding fire and ice back together into ice that burns or frozen fire.  The problem has it's roots in magic and so there must also be a magical solution.

[LynnS]

Coming back to Melisandre; the character we don't understand, according to GRRM,  how so?  Her magic, her religion, her fanaticism, her history?

If she is the daughter of Bryden Rivers and Shierra Seastar; then she is also a dragon and king's blood(?)

She might also fit all the criteria in Moqorro's vision as a a dragon both young and old, bright and dark, true and false.

I think the first two are obvious, but how can she be both true and false?  Are we missing information because we tend to dismiss it as coming from Melisandre.  Can something be false in one context and true in another?

Is this prayer/ritual a relic of the first long night, something that has made it's way into the red religion?

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A Dance with Dragons - The Sacrifice

"R'hllor," Ser Godry sang, "we give you now four evil men. With glad hearts and true, we give them to your cleansing fires, that the darkness in their souls might be burned away. Let their vile flesh be seared and blackened, that their spirits might rise free and pure to ascend into the light. Accept their blood, Oh lord, and melt the icy chains that bind your servants. Hear their pain, and grant strength to our swords that we might shed the blood of your enemies. Accept this sacrifice, and show us the way to Winterfell, that we might vanquish the unbelievers."

 

 Melt the icy chains that bind your servants?  Cleanse the darkness from their souls so their spirits are free? Hear their pain?