Heresy 240: Ten Heretical Years

[LynnS]

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion VII

The priest was pointing at the Black Wall behind the temple, gesturing up at its parapets, where a handful of armored guardsmen stood gazing down. "What is he saying?" Tyrion asked the knight.

"That Daenerys stands in peril. The dark eye has fallen upon her, and the minions of night are plotting her destruction, praying to their false gods in temples of deceit … conspiring at betrayal with godless outlanders …"

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Prologue

That was his last thought as a man.

True death came suddenly; he felt a shock of cold, as if he had been plunged into the icy waters of a frozen lake. Then he found himself rushing over moonlit snows with his packmates close behind him. Half the world was dark. One Eye, he knew. He bayed, and Sly and Stalker gave echo.

What is the dark eye?  Is this it?

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Bran III

Because winter is coming.

Bran looked at the crow on his shoulder, and the crow looked back. It had three eyes, and the third eye was full of a terrible knowledge. Bran looked down. There was nothing below him now but snow and cold and death, a frozen wasteland where jagged blue-white spires of ice waited to embrace him. They flew up at him like spears. He saw the bones of a thousand other dreamers impaled upon their points. He was desperately afraid.

The third eye of the crow or the soul of ice?

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Bran IV

"I only have two."

"You have three. The crow gave you the third, but you will not open it." He had a slow soft way of speaking. "With two eyes you see my face. With three you could see my heart. With two you can see that oak tree there. With three you could see the acorn the oak grew from and the stump that it will one day become. With two you see no farther than your walls. With three you would gaze south to the Summer Sea and north beyond the Wall."

Quote

 

A Clash of Kings - Davos II

Melisandre laughed again. "You are lost in darkness and confusion, Ser Davos."

"And a good thing." Davos gestured at the distant lights flickering along the walls of Storm's End. "Feel how cold the wind is? The guards will huddle close to those torches. A little warmth, a little light, they're a comfort on a night like this. Yet that will blind them, so they will not see us pass." I hope. "The god of darkness protects us now, my lady. Even you."

The flames of her eyes seemed to burn a little brighter at that. "Speak not that name, ser. Lest you draw his black eye upon us. He protects no man, I promise you. He is the enemy of all that lives. It is the torches that hide us, you have said so yourself. Fire. The bright gift of the Lord of Light."

 

It seems to me that the dark eye/black eye is the third eye of something or someone.  The 3EC has shown Bran the third eye of the enemy and Bran has seen the truth in his heart.  The god of darkness is one of the old gods and Mel thinks that even speaking that title out loud will draw his attention to you.  The light of the torches gives her cover and shields her from the dark eye..

[LynnS]

The blue winter rose (lenten/christmas rose) is a hellebore.

Hellebore - Wikipedia

All You Ever Wanted to Know About the Magical Hellebore Plant - Garden and Happy

Quote

 

In the Victorian language of flowers hellebore has an interesting dual meaning. It primarily refers to a scandal, which fits well with the plant’s dangerous history and links to both witchcraft and insanity. But, hellebore has another meaning that offers a positive spin on any situation.

Hellebore can mean hope as well. After all, this deadly plant blossoms from beneath the snow. It blooms in dark winter days and reminds us all that spring is on the way. Hope fits the hellebore plant perfectly. Like so many of us, this uniquely beautiful plant has a lot of regrets in its past.

But maybe that’s why hellebore continues to have a home in our gardens. We won’t be using it to curse our neighbors or poison a town. Instead, we use it to find hope again in the darkness. Watching hellebore blossom in the snow, we feel that within each of us lives “an invincible summer..no matter how hard the world pushes against [us], within [us all] there’s something stronger—something better, pushing right back.”

 

 

So the crown of winter roses that Rhaegar gave to Lyanna were poisonous and toxic to handle.   If Martin is using the Victorian language of flowers; they also imply scandalous behavior and/or witchcraft.  Yikes!  Is it any wonder the Starks were in an uproar.  

Edit:

Besides coming in all hues from white to black, including a blue variety; another characteristic is that they are sweet smelling.

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Eddard I

"She should be on a hill somewhere, under a fruit tree, with the sun and clouds above her and the rain to wash her clean."

"I was with her when she died," Ned reminded the king. "She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father." He could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. After that he remembered nothing. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his. Ned could recall none of it. "I bring her flowers when I can," he said. "Lyanna was … fond of flowers."

 If these were winter roses; then that might pinpoint her death in late winter to early spring.

Quote

Black hellebore is a winter-blooming evergreen perennial in the Ranunculaceae family.  They are often called Christmas roses because they bloom around Christmas in warmer regions and in early spring in cooler areas. The scientific name comes from the Greek words 'helein', meaning injures, and 'bora', meaning food, referring to the toxic properties when the plant is eaten.  The specific name 'niger', which means black, is in reference to the color of the roots. 

 

[asongofheresy]

Hellebore as winter rose makes sense yeah, about Melisandre, I think she is Maegi the Frog 

[alienarea]

A little bit off topic:

Merry Christmas to all of you!

[LynnS]

 

[Black Crow]

Merry Christmas to all, and if you're of that persuasion a Good Yule, which somehow seems more appropriate anyway  

[asongofheresy]

Merry Christmas to you all, wants to share her highness' performance at Westminster Abbey 

[LynnS]

Oh My God!  I got a 142 piece deluxe artists sketching kit from Santa.  I'm thrilled to bits!

[Tucu]

Two of the best animated Christmas songs:

 

 

[LynnS]

35 minutes ago, Tucu said:

Two of the best animated Christmas songs:

It can be difficult, this time of year.  Covid isn't helping with the need to isolate from everyone either.  I sometimes put on Futurama audio commentaries because it feels like there are people.

[LynnS]

Where does it actually say that Rhaegar dropped the crown of roses onto Lyanna's lap from the end of his lance?

[asongofheresy]

It could be an assumption, which wouldn't be surprising for me. 

[Tucu]

4 hours ago, LynnS said:

It can be difficult, this time of year.  Covid isn't helping with the need to isolate from everyone either.  I sometimes put on Futurama audio commentaries because it feels like there are people.

Yes, this was another quiet festive season. Today at least it was sunny here so I could break the boredom with some outdoor time.

 

3 hours ago, LynnS said:

Where does it actually say that Rhaegar dropped the crown of roses onto Lyanna's lap from the end of his lance?

I think the lance was only mentioned in the world book:

Quote

And when the triumphant Prince of Dragonstone named Lyanna Stark, daughter of the Lord of Winterfell, the queen of love and beauty, placing a garland of blue roses in her lap with the tip of his lance, the lickspittle lords gathered around the king declared that further proof of his perfidy. Why would the prince have thus given insult to his own wife, the Princess Elia Martell of Dorne (who was present), unless it was to help him gain the Iron Throne? The crowning of the Stark girl, who was by all reports a wild and boyish young thing with none of the Princess Elia's delicate beauty, could only have been meant to win the allegiance of Winterfell to Prince Rhaegar's cause, Symond Staunton suggested to the king.

 

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Tucu said:

Yes, this was another quiet festive season. Today at least it was sunny here so I could break the boredom with some outdoor time.

It's freezing rain here off and on and cold.  I'm putzing around.  Watched some tutorials on youtube.  I haven't had art supplies in decades. Watercolor paintbrush pens - what the heck are those?  LOL!

Now I'm watching Inception.  I still don't know if it is a dream right from the start.

[LynnS]

2 hours ago, asongofheresy said:

It could be an assumption, which wouldn't be surprising for me. 

Why did Martin add that detail into the world book?  Why make a distinction from the book of just placing it in her lap?  It means he didn't get off his horse and he handed to her from the end of a weapon.   It seems almost disdainful; upstairs/downstairs. 

[LongRider]

5 hours ago, LynnS said:

Why did Martin add that detail into the world book?  Why make a distinction from the book of just placing it in her lap?  It means he didn't get off his horse and he handed to her from the end of a weapon.   It seems almost disdainful; upstairs/downstairs. 

The tip of the lance into her lap is considered a sexual gesture by some.

[Yaya]

hi everyone, just jumping in on this .... 

the flowers for the queen of love & beauty was already created & waiting for the winner to present the 'crown'.   
no one (theoretically) would have known that:
1. Rheager was going to win &
2. that he would drop them in Lyanna's lap.

so , theoretically, the presentation of the crown of blue flowers could have been received by anyone.  
if he were to have given them to  Elia, they would have been blue roses, if Rheager were to have given the crown to someone else, they would be blue flowers too ... therefore the meaning of the colour of the flowers is unimportant.

unless of course, there was a table full of flower crowns & Rheager purposefully chose the one to give to Lyanna ... i find that difficult to believe though.

[Yaya]

oh & even more of my thoughts for you all:

" "I bring her flowers when I can," he said. "Lyanna was … fond of flowers.""

you know what i thought when i first ready this all those years ago? 
Lyanna was in love with a bastard from the Reach (fond of flowers) and that was why she was (reportedly) in the Harrenhal area when the (supposed) abduction occured. 
also, this could have been a part of Rickard Stark's 'southron ambitions'. 
IF  Lyanna was pregnant & died birthing (which I also don't believe), my money is on that the baby was a "Flower" child

 

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, LongRider said:

The tip of the lance into her lap is considered a sexual gesture by some.

Hi!  I recall that discussion.  I've been trying tp picture how the crown is awarded.  So the knight who wins the joust approaches the dais on his horse and the champion's crown is placed on his lance.  He then chooses the lady to receive the crown and passes it to her from his lance.  Maybe it means nothing and this is the way it's done.

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Yaya said:

so , theoretically, the presentation of the crown of blue flowers could have been received by anyone. 

True.  I think it must have been a winter rose or hellibore which blooms late winter or early spring before any other flower.  Depending on the latitude where it's found.  The further north, later in early spring and south, blooming earlier in late December.  

This is what the world book says about the False Spring:

Quote

 

The World of Ice and Fire - The Fall of the Dragons: The Year of the False Spring

And well it might, for with that simple garland of pale blue roses, Rhaegar Targaryen had begun the dance that would rip the Seven Kingdoms apart, bring about his own death and thousands more, and put a welcome new king upon the Iron Throne.

The False Spring of 281 AC lasted less than two turns. As the year drew to a close, winter returned to Westeros with a vengeance. On the last day of the year, snow began to fall upon King's Landing, and a crust of ice formed atop the Blackwater Rush. The snowfall continued off and on for the best part of a fortnight, by which time the Blackwater was hard frozen, and icicles draped the roofs and gutters of every tower in the city.

As cold winds hammered the city, King Aerys II turned to his pyromancers, charging them to drive the winter off with their magics. Huge green fires burned along the walls of the Red Keep for a moon's turn. Prince Rhaegar was not in the city to observe them, however. Nor could he be found in Dragonstone with Princess Elia and their young son, Aegon. With the coming of the new year, the crown prince had taken to the road with half a dozen of his closest friends and confidants, on a journey that would ultimately lead him back to the riverlands. Not ten leagues from Harrenhal, Rhaegar fell upon Lyanna Stark of Winterfell, and carried her off, lighting a fire that would consume his house and kin and all those he loved—and half the realm besides.

 

 So there were two years of winter before the tourney at Harrenhal, but the Citadel had not yet sent out the white ravens because it looked like spring was returning.  The tourney was held during that false spring and lasted two turns or two months I'm guessing before winter returned.

So the only flower that could have been growing would be the winter rose and that would have been presented to anyone if it was the only choice.

What's curious about is that Lyanna is also holding a black rose when she dies.  Hellebores have a black variety.  If the room smelled of blood and winter roses; then it implies that she died sometime when that flower was in season and in a region where it grows.

I think that when Ned tells Robert that Lyanna was fond of ... flowers; he was about to say winter roses which would have set Robert off because of the tourney.