Aenys Blackfyre's Murder

[Mourning Star]

8 minutes ago, Brynden"Bloodraven" Rivers said:

Oathbreaking is only punished in the night's watch. He also got punished for that Oathbreaking. I don't get what you are trying to prove here. Bloodraven is an oathbreaker in one instance, towards the end of his life and it can be legally justified. That doesn't make him the big bad of the series.

My point was that he is a self admitted oathbreaker and kinslayer. And that's bad.

Bloodraven is still alive, the Aenys incident was not towards the end of his life.

It was not legally justified.

The reason I think he is something of a "big bad" is because I think he is responsible for the return of the others. Violating all the laws of gods and men, going against Ned's lessons, and being a ruthless Machiavellian type is more of a background profile as part of the storytelling.

[Brynden"Bloodraven" Rivers]

3 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

I'm suggesting Bloodraven tried to become king... sorry if that got lost in the mix. This would be why his men would be arrested with him, as well as presumably participating in the crime against Aenys.

We do not know if the Raven's Teeth were members of the Goldcloaks at this point.

All the men in the dungeons weren't Raven's Teeth... I'm not sure I understand your issue here?

Or they are other servants of, or men loyal to, Bloodraven not explicitly called Raven's Teeth?

The Raven's teeth were a part of Bloodraven's personal guard. The text would imply that the cloaks were members of the Raven's Teeth if what you are saying is true. I'm saying the Raven's Teeth weren't in the dungeons at all. 

[Mourning Star]

2 minutes ago, Brynden"Bloodraven" Rivers said:

The Raven's teeth were a part of Bloodraven's personal guard. The text would imply that the cloaks were members of the Raven's Teeth if what you are saying is true. I'm saying the Raven's Teeth weren't in the dungeons at all. 

And, as I've repeatedly explained above, I think the text clearly indicates that the Raven's Teeth were in the dungeons before being sent to the Wall.

[Mourning Star]

As a note, there are multiple cases of lords adding their own men to the Goldcloaks when it served them. For instance, Mace Tyrell in the main series and Unwin Peake in Fire and Blood.

[Prince of the North]

3 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

And, as I've repeatedly explained above, I think the text clearly indicates that the Raven's Teeth were in the dungeons before being sent to the Wall.

You need to believe the text "clearly indicates that the Raven's Teeth were in the dungeons before being sent to the Wall"...but it doesn't. 

I feel compelled to respond to this once again to challenge it for anyone who may be tempted to take it at face value.  Nowhere is it stated that the Raven's Teeth who went to the Wall with Aemon and Bloodraven were ever inmprisoned in Kings Landing's dungeons and nowhere is it stated that ALL of the men who went with Aemon and Bloodraven to the Wall were from Kings landing's dungeons.  It's just as plausible to believe that the Raven's Teeth who went to the Wall with Aemon and Bloodraven did so voluntarily out of loyalty to Bloodraven.  

[Megorova]

1 hour ago, Prince of the North said:

provide the quote that proves the Ravens Teeth were imprisoned with Bloodraven

1. AFFC, chapter 15 - "He sent me north aboard the Golden Dragon, and insisted that his friend Ser Duncan see me safe to Eastwatch. No recruit had arrived at the Wall with so much pomp since Nymeria sent the Watch six kings in golden fetters. Egg emptied out the dungeons too, so I would not need to say my vows alone. My honor guard, he called them. One was no less a man than Brynden Rivers."

+

2. TWOIAF, Aegon V - "This he did. Ser Brynden Rivers set sail for the Wall late in the year of 233 AC. (No one intercepted his ship). Two hundred men went with him, many of them archers from Bloodraven’s personal guard, the Raven’s Teeth. The king’s brother, Maester Aemon, was also amongst them."

1+2 = Egg emptied out the dungeons, and called those men - Aemon's honor guard. Amongst those men were Brynden Rivers, and many of them were from Brynden's personal guard.

So, as I see it - either those men tried to free Brynden, after Egg ordered his arrest, and then were also seized and imprisoned; or they were seized alongside with Brynden, because they took active part in Aenys' death. Aenys was seized by the golden cloaks - the City's Watch, though could be that before that, the Raven's Teeth were escorting Aenys from his ship and into the city. So they knew what Bloodraven was intending to do, and were helping him by bringing Aenys to where he was seized. And thus later they were imprisoned together with Brynden.

I'm not saying that all the other 199 prisoners, besides Brynden, were Raven's Teeth, only that many of them were. During events described in TMK, there was 300 RT. Though that was still in 211, and Bloodraven went to The Wall in 233. So in the span of those 22 years, some of those 300 RT could have died or just left, so amongst the prisoners in the dungeons only some of those 200 were RT, and the others were just some criminals.

Based on those quotes I also concluded that there is a possibility that those Raven's Teeth, that went with Bloodraven to The Wall, were previously imprisoned together with him at the Black Cells. Maybe they were, or maybe they weren't. Though the sum of those quotes implies that the possibility that they were indeed amongst the prisoners, is likely and viable.

[Brynden"Bloodraven" Rivers]

5 minutes ago, Prince of the North said:

You need to believe the text "clearly indicates that the Raven's Teeth were in the dungeons before being sent to the Wall"...but it doesn't. 

I feel compelled to respond to this once again to challenge it for anyone who may be tempted to take it at face value.  Nowhere is it stated that the Raven's Teeth who went to the Wall with Aemon and Bloodraven were ever inmprisoned in Kings Landing's dungeons and nowhere is it stated that ALL of the men who went with Aemon and Bloodraven to the Wall were from Kings landing's dungeons.  It's just as plausible to believe that the Raven's Teeth who went to the Wall with Aemon and Bloodraven did so voluntarily out of loyalty to Bloodraven.  

All of this I agree with. Just because @Mourning Star interprets the evidence that way doesn't mean that's what it is. @Prince of the North's interpretation is more valid.

[Mourning Star]

Egg emptied out the dungeons too, so I would not need to say my vows alone.

According to Aemon, everyone who went to the Wall and said their vows with him came from the dungeons.

I have never seen a shred of textual evidence to the contrary and so I take the man at his word. Call Aemon a liar and at least I understand what you are saying, but I'm genuinely baffled that people can keep trying to deny what is spelled out so simply in front of them. Do I need to break down this sentence for you? 

If Aemon would have been "alone" in saying his vows without the men Egg sent from the dungeons, then all the men who went to the Wall and said their vows with Aemon were from the dungeons.

[Prince of the North]

2 minutes ago, Megorova said:

[snipped for length]

Based on those quotes I also concluded that there is a possibility that those Raven's Teeth, that went with Bloodraven to The Wall, were previously imprisoned together with him at the Black Cells. Maybe they were, or maybe they weren't. Though the sum of those quotes implies that the possibility that they were indeed amongst the prisoners, is likely and viable.

Whew!  For a minute there I thought I was going to have to explain to you how you're making the same leaps of logic that @Mourning Star is.  But then you wisely summed up with the above.  Yes, I certainly concede that it's a possibility.  What it certainly is not is a fact.  However, @Mourning Star states it as fact.  It simply isn't.  I also disagree with you saying the "sum of those quotes implies that the possibility that they were indeed amongst the prisoners, is likely and viable."  That's your opinion.  I don't agree that those two quotes add up to anything approaching it being "likely and viable" that the Raven's Teeth who went with Aemon and Bloodraven to the Wall were from the dungeons and/or that ALL of the men who went with Aemon and Bloodraven to the Wall were from the dungeons.      

[Megorova]

1 hour ago, Prince of the North said:

I don't agree that those two quotes add up to anything approaching it being "likely and viable" that the Raven's Teeth who went with Aemon and Bloodraven to the Wall were from the dungeons and/or that ALL of the men who went with Aemon and Bloodraven to the Wall were from the dungeons.     

1. Egg emptied out the dungeons too

2. so I would not need to say my vows alone.

3. My honor guard, he called them.

4. One was no less a man than Brynden Rivers.

5. Ser Brynden Rivers set sail for the Wall

6. Two hundred men went with him

7. many of them archers from Bloodraven’s personal guard, the Raven’s Teeth. 

8. Aemon, was also amongst them.

To the Wall from KL went 201 people - Brynden + 200 people, one of them - Aemon. Or like this - to the Wall went 201 people - Aemon and 200 of his honor guards - men that were released from the dungeons, Brynden Rivers + 199 other people. Amongst those 199 many were Raven's Teeth. Based on the quote from AFFC - there are no implications that besides the prisoners, released by Egg from the dungeons, there were other people besides them, who had also joined Aemon's "honor guard".

So if we were operating and making conclusions only on that info, then those 199 people were ALL definitely from the dungeons. Though there's one small detail that leaves space for a different possibility - it wasn't expressively said in TWOIAF how many people were released by Egg from the dungeons. Maybe there was 50 of them, or 150, or any other X-number, and then the others (200 - X) = could have been NOT prisoners, just Raven's Teeth. In this case those out of Aemon's escorts, who were Raven's Teeth, went with Bloodraven by their own volition, and were not imprisoned together with him in the dungeons.

Though, the thing is - GRRM wrote AFFC in 2005 and TWOIAF in 2014. So the info -

"Yet after the sentence of death was pronounced, Aegon offered Bloodraven the chance to take the black and join the Night’s Watch. This he did. Ser Brynden Rivers set sail for the Wall late in the year of 233 AC. (No one intercepted his ship). Two hundred men went with him, many of them archers from Bloodraven’s personal guard, the Raven’s Teeth. The king’s brother, Maester Aemon, was also amongst them."

is nearly 10 years more recent than this one -

"Egg emptied out the dungeons too, so I would not need to say my vows alone. My honor guard, he called them. One was no less a man than Brynden Rivers."

So first GRRM wrote that Aemon's brother emptied out the dungeons, for Aemon not to say his vows alone, and called those men Aemon's honor guard. And nearly 10 years later GRRM to that info added that with Brynden to The Wall went 200 men, many of whom were Raven's Teeth, and that amongst those 200 men was maester Aemon.

The thing is - Egg offered to Bloodraven to go to The Wall, instead of being executed. And thus Bloodraven was amongst those people that previously were in the dungeons. And Egg emptied out the dungeons for Aemon not to say his vows alone. So if Raven's Teeth joined their party willingly, and were not amongst the released prisoners, that were supposed to go to The Wall, then there would have been no need for Egg to empty out the dungeons, for Aemon not to say his vows alone. Why to free the other prisoners, besides just Bloodraven, whom Egg specifically wanted to pardon (at least to save him from being executed), in case if the Raven's Teeth had already joined Aemon's party, and were also intending to go to The Wall, and to say the vows with him? 

So, based on those quotes, and also on the time when that info was written by GRRM (TWOIAF after AFFC), the most likely option, the most simple option, is that those Raven's Teeth that went with Aemon to The Wall, were amongst the prisoners that were released from the dungeons alongside with Bloodraven.

The other option, which is less likely, because it is more complex and requires additional actions to be done by characters, and also to be approved by King Aegon, is - Egg emptied out the dungeons to spare Bloodraven, and for those prisoners, who were released together with him, to join Aemon and Bloodraven at The Wall; and only then some of the Raven's Teeth also expressed willingness to go with Bloodraven to The Wall. Though, if this was the case - would Egg have allowed this? Wouldn't this looked like those RT were intending to take control over the ship, and to free Bloodraven, prior they would have arrived to the Eastwatch?

It seems to me, that more likely is the option that Egg had allowed those RT to go with Brynden to The Wall, only because they were imprisoned together with him in the dungeons, and when it was decided that he will go to The Wall, they also expressed willingness to go with him, and they gave the vow that if they will be freed from the dungeons, then they will go to The Wall, and that's when Egg emptied out the dungeons and made those ex-prisoners to become Aemon's "honor guard".

I'm not totally crossing out the possibility of those Raven's Teeth, who joined Aemon's party, not being originally amongst the prisoners, that were released from the dungeons alongside with Bloodraven. Though, in my opnion, if GRRM thought, that he gave not enough information on that topic, then he could have added more in TWOIAF. And based on what he did wrote in that book, it appears that the Raven's Teeth joined Aemon's party not later, not separately, but together with Bloodraven. Thus they were imprisoned together with him in the dungeons, and thus afterwards also decided to go to The Wall with him. And they gave a promise to Egg to join Night's Watch, and not to try to do something else, like to free Bloodraven and to escape with him. So that's why Egg freed them, and also all the other prisoners from the dungeons, even those that were not RT. To give them the same option, as he gave to Bloodraven and to RT, to be fair to everyone.

So, in my opinion, the possibility that all those Raven's Teeth, that joined Aemon's party, were amongst the prisoners, is 70%, and the possibility that they joined the party later, and separately from the prisoners, is 30%. But that's my opinion, and you and the others are free to disagree.

[Prince of the North]

Just now, Megorova said:

1. Egg emptied out the dungeons too

2. so I would not need to say my vows alone.

3. My honor guard, he called them.

4. One was no less a man than Brynden Rivers.

5. Ser Brynden Rivers set sail for the Wall

6. Two hundred men went with him

7. many of them archers from Bloodraven’s personal guard, the Raven’s Teeth. 

8. Aemon, was also amongst them.

To the Wall from KL went 201 people - Brynden + 200 people, one of them - Aemon. Or like this - to the Wall went 201 people - Aemon and 200 of his honor guards - men that were released from the dungeons, Brynden River + 199 other people. Amongst those 199 many were Raven's Teeth. Based on the quote from AFFC - there are no implications that besides the prisoners, released by Egg from the dungeouns, there were other people besides them, who had also joined Aemon's "honor guard".

So if we were operating and making conclusions only on that info, then those 199 people were ALL definitely from the dungeons. Though there's one small detail that leaves space for a different possibility - it wasn't expressively said in TWOIAF how many people were released by Egg from the dungeons. Maybe there was 50 of them, or 150, or any other X-number, and then the others (200 - X) = could have been NOT prisoners, just Raven's Teeth. In this case those out of Aemon's escorts, who were Raven's Teeth, went with Bloodraven by their own volition, and were not imprisoned together with him in the dungeons.

Though, the thing is - GRRM wrote AFFC in 2005 and TWOIAF in 2014. So the info -

"Yet after the sentence of death was pronounced, Aegon offered Bloodraven the chance to take the black and join the Night’s Watch. This he did. Ser Brynden Rivers set sail for the Wall late in the year of 233 AC. (No one intercepted his ship). Two hundred men went with him, many of them archers from Bloodraven’s personal guard, the Raven’s Teeth. The king’s brother, Maester Aemon, was also amongst them."

is nearly 10 years more recent than this one -

"Egg emptied out the dungeons too, so I would not need to say my vows alone. My honor guard, he called them. One was no less a man than Brynden Rivers."

So first GRRM wrote that Aemon's brother emptied out the dungeons, for Aemon not to say his vows alone, and called those men Aemon's honor guard. And nearly 10 years later GRRM to that info added that with Brynden to The Wall went 200 men, many of whom were Raven's Teeth, and that amongst those 200 men was maester Aemon.

The thing is - Egg offered to Bloodraven to go to The Wall, instead of being executed. And thus Bloodraven was amongst those people that previously were in the dungeons. And Egg emptied out the dungeons for Aemon not to say his vows alone. So if Raven's Teeth joined their party willingly, and were not amongst the released prisoners, that were supposed to go to The Wall, then there would have been no need for Egg to empty out the dungeons, for Aemon not to say his vows alone. Why to free the other prisoners, besides just Bloodraven, whom Egg specifically wanted to pardon (at least to save him from being executed), in case if the Raven's Teeth had already joined Aemon's party, and were also intending to go to The Wall, and to say the vows with him? 

So, based on those quotes, and also on the time when that info was written by GRRM (TWOIAF after AFFC), the most likely option, the most simple option, is that those Raven's Teeth that went with Aemon to The Wall, were amongst the prisoners that were released from the dungeons alongside with Bloodraven.

The other option, which is less likely, because it is more complex and requires additional actions to be done by characters, and also to be approved by King Aegon, is - Egg emptied out the dungeons to spare Bloodraven, and for those prisoners, who were released together with him, to join Aemon and Bloodraven at The Wall; and only then some of the Raven's Teeth also expressed willingness to go with Bloodraven to The Wall. Though, if this was the case - would Egg have allowed this? Wouldn't this looked like those RT were intending to take control over the ship, and to free Bloodraven, prior they would have arrived to the Eastwatch?

It seems to me, that the option that Egg had allowed those RT to go with Brynden to The Wall, only because they were imprisoned together with him in the dungeons, and when it was decided that he will go to The Wall, they also expressed willingness to go with him, and they gave the vow that if they will be freed from the dungeons, then they will go to The Wall, and that's when Egg emptied out the dungeons and made those ex-prisoners to become Aemon's "honor guard".

I'm not totally crossing out the possibility of those Raven's Teeth, who joined Aemon's party, not being originally amongst the prisoners, that were released from the dungeons alongside with Bloodraven. Though, in my opnion, if GRRM thought, that he gave not enough information on that topic, then he could have added more in TWOIAF. And based on what he did wrote in that book, it appears that the Raven's Teeth joined Aemon's party not later, not separately, but together with Bloodraven. Thus they were imprisoned together with him in the dungeons, and thus afterwards also decided to go to The Wall with him. And they gave a promise to Egg to join Night's Watch, and not to try to do something else, like to free Bloodraven and to escape with him. So that's why Egg freed them, and also all the other prisoners from the dungeons, even those that were not RT. To give them the same option, as he gave to Bloodraven and to RT, to be fair to everyone.

So, in my opinion, the possibility that all those Raven's Teeth, that joined Aemon's party, were amongst the prisoners, is 70%, and the possibility that they joined the party later, and separately from the prisoners, is 30%. But that's my opinion, and you and the others are free to disagree.

Sorry you went to all this trouble.  It is a great bit of speculation but, in the end, still only speculation.  It still NOWHERE STATES that ALL the men who went with Aemon and Bloodraven came from the dungeons and/or that the Raven's Teeth were imprisoned in the dungeons.  So, to assume either or both of those things to be the case is a choice you're making.  I get that you want to interpret things that way and that's fine as long as you're simply presenting it as your own theory/interpretation/opinion.  But it's completely legitimate to have other interpretations that, at this point, are just as legitimate and plausible as yours. 

Bottom line, before I start treating something as canon or fact in ASoIaF, I want it to, you know, actually be confirmed as canon or fact.  And when people represent their own theories/interpretations/opinions as canon or fact when they are not I will sometimes choose to challenge them on it     

[Megorova]

@Prince of the North The Raven's Teeth were first mentioned in The Sworn Sword published in 2003, then in The Mystery Knight in 2010, then in TWOIAF in 2014.

It seems that when GRRM in 2005 wrote AFFC, in which Aemon mentioned the circumstances of his arrival to The Wall, but didn't mentioned Raven's Teeth), they were not part of Bloodraven's intended plot on The Wall. Instead GRRM added them into the Night's Watch later, in 2014, when he wrote TWOIAF. That's what it looks like.

Because think about it - there was no mentioning about any of them, by anyone else at The Wall, despite there being people who had served in the Night's Watch for 40 years, and Bloodraven dissapearing in 252 AC, 48 years ago. Shouldn't there have been at least some of the Raven's Teeth left at The Wall after Bloodraven's dissapearance? But them never being mentioned in the books of the main series by anyone at The Wall, in my opinion, is an indication that GRRM writing in TWOIAF that the RT went to The Wall together with Bloodraven, was a much later addition to Bloodraven's plotline, outflashed by GRRM already after the release of AFFC. 

In The Hedge Knight, published in March of 2005 [Edit: I missed one important detail about THK - actually in 2005 it was re-published, and the first publicashion had occurred in 1998, two years after AGOT's release, so it's understandable that Raven's Teeth weren't there yet, in the book written in 1998], Bloodraven and Raven's Teeth weren't mentioned, and neither were mentioned any of the Blackfyres, or the civil war between them and the Targaryens, nor was there mentioned Aemon's existance. Egg, or anyone else there didn't mentioned that Egg had another brother, besides Aerion and Daeron. And AFFC was published also in 2005, though months after THK - in October [Edit: considering that the actual year of the THK's release is 1998, and not 2005, there's nothing weird that Aemon, nor Raven's Teeth, nor Bloodraven weren't mentioned there (in THK)].

Which means that possibly, originally GRRM wasn't intending that maester Aemon will be one of the Targaryens [Edit: he wasn't part of the plot in D&E novels, not until The Sworn Sword's release in 2003], and when he was writing AGOT, he wasn't at that point in time intending for Bloodraven to be the ex-leader of the Raven's Teeth that went with him to The Wall, or the King's Hand or one of the Great Bastards, etc., and at that point in time the whole Blackfyre-plotline, didn't even existed, same as the details of who this guy - Brynden Rivers, was supposed to be, or rather - who he became later in the following books (see? here -> "Egg emptied out the dungeons too, so I would not need to say my vows alone. My honor guard, he called them. One was no less a man than Brynden Rivers. Later he was chosen lord commander.” “Bloodraven?” said Dareon. “I know a song about him. ‘A Thousand Eyes, and One,’ it’s called. But I thought he lived a hundred years ago.” <- no mentioning of him being of royal blood, or being an ex-Hand of the King [Edit: the Great Bastards were added into the plot also only starting from TSS/2003]).

Thus, my conclusion to all that is that - Raven's Teeth won't play any important role in the books [Edit: not outside of what GRRM will write in D&E novels], GRRM isn't going to make them matter. He added them into TWOIAF's texts, more like an afterthought than an important part of the plot.

Also, note that the Blackfyres and the Golden Company became active part of ASOIAF's plot, also only on the later stages. Despite the Blackfyres being mentioned for the first time in ASOS, in 2000, in Barristan Selmy's entry in the white book (Slew Maelys the Monstrous, last of the Blackfyre Pretenders, in single combat during the War of the Ninepenny Kings), their plotline at that point in time obviously wasn't yet outflashed by GRRM.

So the Raven's Teeth, and Aenys Blackfyre's execution - both of those elements were added only in 2014, and written by GRRM sometime between releases of AFFC and TWOIAF. And, in my opinion, it is actually pretty telling that the first appearance of the Blackfyres in the series had occured in connection to Barristan Selmy. Which returns us to my first post in this thread - in my opinion, without Aenys' execution there would have been no Baristan Selmy, who was a son of Aenys' daughter, and there would have been no fAegon to lead the Golden Company back to the 7K (because fAegon's father is Barristan, thru whom fAegon is a Blackfyre by blood).

Thus the conclusion is that GRRM made Bloodraven into a scapegoat, who had executed Aenys, because it was necessary for the further plot, and provided GRRM with the opportunity to smoothly insert into the plot the connection between Bloodraven, Aenys, Barristan and the Blackfyres.

Edit: this is from AGOT, chapter 60, Aemon revealed there to Jon that he is a Targaryen - "Three times the gods saw fit to test my vows. Once when I was a boy, once in the fullness of my manhood, and once when I had grown old". Though in THK he wasn't mentioned, so it seems that GRRM made Aemon a Targaryen only in the later stages of writing AGOT, and then by the time he was writing THK, he sort of  forgot about him. And Bloodraven and Blackfyres there also weren't mentioned, despite that novel being written in 1998, and AGOT being written in 1996.

[Prince of the North]

@Megorova That's all very interesting!  And you could be right.  But it still doesn't prove that ALL the men who went with Aemon to the Wall were from the dungeons and/or that the Raven's Teeth were imprisoned in the dungeons with Bloodraven.  Although, it doesn't appear that's what you're trying to anymore with this post?

[Megorova]

22 hours ago, Prince of the North said:

Sorry you went to all this trouble. 

I'm using this forum to practice here written English, so - no trouble at all.

18 hours ago, Prince of the North said:

But it still doesn't prove that ALL the men who went with Aemon to the Wall were from the dungeons and/or that the Raven's Teeth were imprisoned in the dungeons with Bloodraven. 

Although, it doesn't appear that's what you're trying to anymore with this post?

Would be better if I will write the books in their publication order, to show what is the point of my post.

Also - correction to my previous post - Aemon was mentioned in THK amongst Egg's brothers, -

Quote

"It’s short for Aegon. My brother Aemon named me Egg. He’s off at the Citadel now, learning to be a maester. And Daeron sometimes calls me Egg as well, and so do my sisters."

Though there was no mentioning in The Hedge Knight novel of Bloodraven, Brynden Rivers, the King's Hand, or the Master of whisperers. The only mentioning in any way close to Bloodraven was this -

Quote

The brown tent beneath red stallion could only belong to Ser Otho Bracken, who was called the Brute of Bracken since slaying Lord Quentyn Blackwood three years past during a tourney at King’s Landing. Dunk heard that Ser Otho struck so hard with the blunted longaxe that he stove in the visor of Lord Blackwood’s helm and the face beneath it. He saw some Blackwood banners as well, on the west edge of the meadow, as distant from Ser Otho as they could be.

... Fortunately, I have more than five friends. Leo Longthorn, the Laughing Storm, Lord Caron, the Lannisters. Ser Otho Bracken… aye, and the Blackwoods as well, though you will never get Blackwood and Bracken on the same side of a melee. I shall go and speak with some of them.

So there was animocity between Blackwoods and Brackens at that time, but it wasn't because of the past rivalry between Barba Bracken and Melissa Blackwood, both of whom GRRM years later, in TWOIAF,  made Aegon IV's mistresses, and the mothers of Bittersteel and Bloodraven.

AGOT - 1996.

The Hedge Knight - August 1998.

ACOK - November 1998.

ASOS - 2000.

The Sworn Sword - 2003.

AFFC - October 2005.

The Mystery Knight - 2010.

ADWD - 2011.

TWOIAF - 2014.

In AGOT, THK and ASOS, Bloodraven and Raven's Teeth weren't mentioned, there was also no mentioning of the civil war between Targaryens and Blackfyres, and there was no mentioning of the Blackfyres at all, that's in 1996-2000.

Then there was this - June 2001:

https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/SF_Targaryens_Valyria_Sansa_Martells_and_More

Quote

Targaryen bastards have been given a number of different names over the years. The Blackfyres are one specific branch, descended from Daemon Blackfyre, a bastard son of Aegon IV the Unworthy by one of the three sisters that Baelor the Blessed imprisoned in the Maidenvault. Blackfyre was also the name of Aegon the Conquerer's greatsword, a fabled blade of Valyrian steel passed from king to king... until Aegon IV chose to bestow it on Daemon instead of his legitimate son, Daeron, whom he suspected was actually fathered by his brother, Prince Aemon the Dragonknight. Some felt that the sword symbolized the monarchy, so the gift was the seed from which the Blackfyre Rebellions grew. None of this is in the books as yet, but it will be revealed gradually in future volumes.

Then in 2003 in The Sworn Sword novel was the first ever mentioning of Bloodraven and Raven's Teeth:

Quote

And there was his mortal error, for the Raven’s Teeth had gained the top of Weeping Ridge, and Bloodraven saw his half brother’s royal standard three hundred yards away, and Daemon and his sons beneath it. He slew Aegon first, the elder of the twins, for he knew that Daemon would never leave the boy whilst warmth lingered in his body, though white shafts fell like rain. Nor did he, though seven arrows pierced him, driven as much by sorcery as by Bloodraven’s bow. Young Aemon took up Blackfyre when the blade slipped from his dying father’s fingers, so Bloodraven slew him, too, the younger of the twins. Thus perished the black dragon and his sons.

Then between TSS and AFFC's publication, GRRM wrote this - in April of 2004:

https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Concerning_the_Great_Bastards/

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Daemon Blackfyre and Bittersteel, aka Ser Aegor Rivers, are both bastard sons of King Aegon IV (the Unworthy), although Daemon is Targ on both sides, while Bittersteel's mother was a Bracken. Bloodraven is also the king's bastard, by yet another mother.

At the time of the Redgrass Field, Daemon Blackfyre was 26, and his twin sons Aegon and Aemon, who squired for him, were 12. Bittersteel was 24, and Bloodraven 21. This was about thirteen years before "The Hedge Knight."

Then in October of 2005, in AFFC, the first mentioning of Brynden Bloodraven Rivers going to The Wall with maester Aemon:

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"Egg wanted me to help him rule, but I knew my place was here. He sent me north aboard the Golden Dragon, and insisted that his friend Ser Duncan see me safe to Eastwatch. No recruit had arrived at the Wall with so much pomp since Nymeria sent the Watch six kings in golden fetters. Egg emptied out the dungeons too, so I would not need to say my vows alone. My honor guard, he called them. One was no less a man than Brynden Rivers. Later he was chosen lord commander.”

“Bloodraven?” said Dareon. “I know a song about him. ‘A Thousand Eyes, and One,’ it’s called. But I thought he lived a hundred years ago.”

“We all did. Once I was as young as you.”

First time Bloodraven and Raven's Teeth were mentioned in 2003 in TSS, but in 2005 in AFFC the Raven's Teeth were not mentioned being amongst Aemon's escort to The Wall.

Which is an indication that by the time when GRRM had published AFFC, he wasn't planning that there will be Raven's Teeth amongst the members of the Night's Watch. That's why they were never ever mentioned by anyone at The Wall in the span of AGOT, ACOK, ASOS and AFFC. GRRM added them into the plot much later, in 2014, thru TWOIAF -

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THE FIRST ACT of Aegon’s reign was the arrest of Brynden Rivers, the King’s Hand, for the murder of Aenys Blackfyre. Bloodraven did not deny that he had lured the pretender into his power by the offer of a safe conduct, but contended that he had sacrificed his own personal honor for the good of the realm.

Though many agreed, and were pleased to see another Blackfyre pretender removed, King Aegon felt he had no choice but to condemn the Hand, lest the word of the Iron Throne be seen as worthless. Yet after the sentence of death was pronounced, Aegon offered Bloodraven the chance to take the black and join the Night’s Watch. This he did. Ser Brynden Rivers set sail for the Wall late in the year of 233 AC. (No one intercepted his ship). Two hundred men went with him, many of them archers from Bloodraven’s personal guard, the Raven’s Teeth. The king’s brother, Maester Aemon, was also amongst them.

GRRM wrote in 2005 in AFFC the circumstances of Aemon going to The Wall, that he was escorted there by Duncan the Tall, and the prisoners released from the dungeons by Egg. Despite GRRM adding later, in 2014, that amongst those people, that went with Aemon to The Wall, besides Bloodraven and Dunk, also were the Raven's Teeth, he can't insert them into the plot as a completely new element. Instead he has to work inside the margins of what he had wrote before - that Aemon to The Wall was escorted by the ex-prisoners. Thus ALL those Raven's Teeth, that went with Bloodraven to The Wall, also were previously imprisoned with him in the dungeons.

In AFFC GRRM wrote that to The Wall on that ship (besides the ship's crew) went - 1. Aemon, 2. ex-prisoners (and Bloodraven amongst them), 3. Dunk. That's it -> 1, 2, 3. So if GRRM wants to add more details into the plot, then he has to work within that range 1-3, he can't add there a 4th element. He can't just write that besides Aemon, Dunk and the prisoners (amongst whom was Bloodraven), to The Wall also went several dozens other men, who were Bloodraven's personal guards - Raven's Teeth. Because if he will write it like that, with the Raven's Teeth being a 4th element, and not a part of the 2nd element, then maester Aemon will be portraid as either a liar, or an old man with a very faulty memory. If he just forgot to mention Raven's Teeth, that went with him to The Wall, and were serving at the Night's Watch alongside with Aemon in the following decades.

So the first point of my previous post (because there was two points, not one), is that ALL the Raven's Teeth definitely were amongst the prisoners, that were released with Bloodraven from the dungeons. And the second point is that - considering that GRRM didn't had yet a fully-formed concept of who Bloodraven is, of the feuds between the Targaryens and the Blackfyres, of the much later created by him the concept of the Great Bastards, at the time when he wrote AFFC in 2005, he didn't had yet a family tree of the Blackfyres, didn't made a specific plans yet concerning what will be the reasons and how will be happening the Blackfyre Rebellions after the First one. Because the complete concept of everything Blackfyre-related was created by GRRM in the span between ASOS (2000) and The Mystery Knight (2010). For example, this is from ASOS, Jaime VIII, chapter 67, Barristan's entry in the White Book - "Slew Maelys the Monstrous, last of the Blackfyre Pretenders, in single combat during the War of the Ninepenny Kings." <- no mentioning of the Golden Company in relation to Maelys. The War of the Ninepenny Kings was a part of an earlier plot, but the concept of the Golden Company wasn't created yet. Instead GRRM had created it between 2000 and 2005. November 2005 (1 month after AFFC's publication):

https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/US_Signing_Tour_Half_Moon_Bay_CA/

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In response to the why was LF fostered at Riverrun when he was a insignificant lord question: GRRM said that Petyr's father and Hoster met up during the War of the Ninepenny Kings and became friends. Apparently that was a time when a lot of people from all over the realm forged friendships. LF's dad later "cashed in" on the friendship to get LF fostered at Riverrun.

The next Dunk & Egg story will largely involve a wedding and a tournament. He hasn't decided on a title.

First time the Golden Company was mentioned in ASOIAF was in AFFC (October 2005), chapter 17, Cersei IV -

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“Whilst we await Lord Walder’s death, there is another matter,” said Aurane Waters. “The Golden Company has broken its contract with Myr. Around the docks I’ve heard men say that Lord Stannis has hired them and is bringing them across the sea.”

“What would he pay them with?” asked Merryweather. “Snow? They are called the Golden Company. How much gold does Stannis have?”

“Little enough,” Cersei assured him. “Lord Qyburn has spoken to the crew of that Myrish galley in the bay. They claim the Golden Company is making for Volantis. If they mean to cross to Westeros, they are marching in the wrong direction.”

This information was added into the books, already after the release of The Hedge Knight in 1998 and the Sworn Sword (<- the first book in which were mentioned the existance of the Blackfyres and the civil war between them and the Targaryens) in 2003. So, despite ASOS being published in 2000, and GRRM mentioning there Maelys the Monstrous being killed by Barristan Selmy, at this point in time the concept of the Golden Company wasn't yet created. So he created it in its entirety in the span of time between 2000 and 2014. Part of the concept he inserted into The Mystery Knight novel published in 2010, he wrote there about the Second Blackfyre Rebellion and a bit about Bittersteel, then he wrote more on the topic of the Golden Company in ADWD in 2011. And then between The Mystery Knight and The World of Ice and Fire (published in 2014), in which he wrote in detail about each of the five Blackfyre Rebellions, he needed to tie together multiple loose ends. For example, he already wrote about the First Rebellion in The Sworn Sword novel, and about the Second in the Mystery Knight novel. Then he decided that he will use Daemon II's death as a reason why the Blackfyres will invade the 7K with the Third Rebellion - in retaliation to the Targaryens for Daemon's death. Then he decided to write the following Rebellions as a parallel to the previous two - Daemon II came to the 7K, and then his death caused the Third Rebellion. Similar to this also happened the Fourth Rebellion - Aenys Blackfyre came to the 7K, was executed by Bloodraven, which solved for GRRM two separate problems - 1. how to send Bloodraven into prison and then to The Wall (because that's what he had already wrote in AFFC - that Brynden Rivers was amongst those people, whom Egg released from the dungeons, and sent with Aemon to The Wall); 2. what to use as a premise for the Fourth Blackfyre Rebellion.

So thru Aenys' execution by Bloodraven, GRRM "killed two birds with one stone". Furthermore, he used this plot twist to tie together multiple loose ends, and to create the premise for the Fifth and Sixth Rebellions too, not only for the Fourth.

When Aenys Blackfyre came to Westeros, before going to King's Landing, he left his family with their relatives the Swanns at the Stonehelm (<- this is my theory, not a fact), so after his execution the Targaryens were unaware that there are other Blackfyres present at the 7K. Then one of Aenys' daughters hooked up with Lyonel Selmy. And when she either became pregnant, or already after she gave birth to their twin-sons, she sent a message to the other Blackfyres. And maybe asked them to get her out from the 7K. In addition also informing them about her father's unjust treatment by the Targaryens. So Bittersteel came to the 7K with the Fourth Blackfyre Rebellion, and while the attention of the Targaryens was drawn to the Battle at the Wendwater Bridge, Bittertseel had sent his agents to Stonehelm, to retrieve from there Aenys' family. Lyonel kept one of the boys, but allowed his wife (or paramour) to take the other one to Essos. So Barristan Selmy had a twin-brother, and years later, shortly prior to the Fifth Rebellion, that brother was killed by his cousin - Maelys the Monstrous. And then Barristan killed Maelys, in retaliation for his brother's death, and then joined the Kingsguard. Years later Varys (who is a son of Maelys the Monstrous), had sent the Smiling Knight (a Blackfyre from a female line) and Simon Toyne (a brother of the Golden Company's captain-general - Myles Toyne the Blackheart) to ambush Barristan. They were supposed to pretend that he defeated them, and Varys was intending for Barristan to save Jeyne Swann, who was also accompanied by Shiera Seastar, disguised as Jeyne's septa. Afterwards Shiera was supposed to provide Jeyne with a love potion, using which Jeyne was supposed to seduce Barristan and to have his child - a Blackfyre by blood, for that child to become the leader of the Golden Company. Though both Simon Toyne and the Smiling Knight, who was also a Blackfyre by blood, didn't wanted to give up their positions at the Golden Company as its leaders. So instead of fighting a bit with Barristan, and then running way, pretending that he defeated them, they fought with him for real, went all out, and then both of them were killed. The rest of the plan went how it was supposed to, and Jeyne Swann (septa Lemore) conceived with Barristan their son - fAegon. And now fAegon has brought Golden Company to the 7K, for the Sixth Blackfyre Rebellion.

So Aenys' execution by Bloodraven was used by GRRM not only as a plot device that allowed him to sent Bloodraven to The Wall, and was used as a basis for the Fourth Blackfyre Rebellion, but also gave GRRM an opportunity to create a premise for the Fifth and the Sixth Blackfyre Rebellions.

So the second point of my post is that Aenys' execution by Bloodraven was an ultimate solution to multiple problems. It was used by GRRM to tie together all those multiple loose threads, that were remaining in the plot of ASOIAF after GRRM wrote a partial concept of the Blackfyres in The Sworn Sword and The Mystery Knight novels. Whatever parts of that concept were still missing, GRRM had inserted into the texts of TWOIAF as a stepping stones, using which he will later reveal to the readers the connection between Aenys' execution, Barristan Selmy, Golden Company, and fAegon. Thus - Aenys' execution was necessary for GRRM to be able to continue the plot of ASOIAF. And Bloodraven is not a bad guy, despite executing Aenys. Because he is GRRM's tool, so he did what was neccessary for the plot, no more than that.

[Prince of the North]

Glad it's giving you lots of practice!  And, as I said, it's a great and interesting supposition.  However, it's still only that.  It does not PROVE that all the men who went with Aemon and Bloodraven to the Wall were from the dungeons and it does not PROVE that the Raven's Teeth were ever imprisoned in the dungeons.  Therefore, it's still not proof of the idea that I think started all of this: that Bloodraven did not have any friends or loyal followers.

I agree with all you've written about the timeline of Martin's thinking and how he probably worked through getting Bloodraven to the Wall, etc.  However, it's still a leap of logic to to say that because King Aegon V "emptied the dungeons" that it absolutely means that men who had been in the dungeons were the ONLY ones who could have went to the Wall with Aemon and Bloodraven.  And then to base the idea that the Raven's Teeth had to have been imprisoned on assuming the first leap of logic to be true...is just another leap of logic.  

I get your theory and it's a fine one.  But it's still not proof or canon.

[Mourning Star]

I love the detail of your response @Megorova! I’m not sure I can subscribe to all the conclusions you’ve reached about the plot, but I appreciate the commentary. Your English is great!

[Lilac & Gooseberries]

On 12/1/2021 at 8:24 PM, Megorova said:

Snip

 

On 12/2/2021 at 8:08 PM, Megorova said:

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As always, they make no sense.

 

 

The simple truth is that as @Prince of the Northsaid, there is no text proof that the Raven's teeth were imprisoned with Bloodraven at all. Someone can deduce or craft tinfoils all they want asbd it will still be no text proof that support that notion.

[Jaenara Belarys]

1 hour ago, Lilac &amp; Gooseberries said:

As always, they make no sense.

 

The conclusions might not make sense, but where @Megorova's talking about the books it does make sense.