Jaime and Loras

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

One of the characters' relations that I find to be really underrated and not talked about enough is the one between Jaime Lannister and Loras Tyrell during A Storm of Swords and A Feast for Crows. 

At first the two men were hostile toward each other with Jaime finding Loras rash and arrogant but upon talking about Renly, Loras softened and showed his more sensitive self causing Jaime to realize that Loras is like him when he was younger in terms of personality as well as him having his own forbidden relation with Renly. 

From then two form a genuine bond with Jaime serving as a big brother figure and mentor to Loras while Loras offering to replace Jaime during his vigil but also unknowingly help Jaime mature further and become a true knight and leader of the Kingsguard once again. It's also worth saying that they're the first knights of the Kingsguard to really start forming a brotherhood since before Robert's Rebellion. 

Aside from the aforementioned scene where Jaime realizes that Loras is like a younger version of him, some of my favorite moments between them are the moments where Jaime stops Loras from taking revenge on Brienne and convince him to talk to her instead, their conversation after where Loras admits that he now believes in Brienne's innocence and loyalty to Renly as well as him feeling guilty over having killed two other of Renly's kingsguards in his grief and rage and Jaime's efforts to ease his pain and guilt over it.

I hope that we will get at least one more moment between the two in The Winds of Winter to see the conclusion of their bond and character development.

[WhatAnArtist!]

One of the many reasons why Jaime's PoV is my favourite in the whole series is because how every single relationship he has dramatically changes between just two books, but it never feels forced or rushed. His character development feels so naturally written, you almost don't notice a lot of the changes at first, but on re-reads it becomes more apparent.

[chrisdaw]

Quote

 

When I saw him all bloody, with her fled and the three of them unharmed . . . if she's innocent, then Robar and Emmon . . ." He could not seem to say the words.

Jaime had not stopped to consider that aspect of it. "I would have done the same, ser." The lie came easy, but Ser Loras seemed grateful for it.

 

This sticks out to me, Loras hastily accused his "brothers" of betrayal and murdered them. We don't know if they even tried to fight back. For all his faults Jaime would not have done this.

A lot of knights will end up on opposite sides as new kings and queens are made, Jaime and Loras being on opposite sides and Jaime killing Loras is a possibility.

[Groo]

22 hours ago, WhatAnArtist! said:

One of the many reasons why Jaime's PoV is my favourite in the whole series is because how every single relationship he has dramatically changes between just two books, but it never feels forced or rushed. His character development feels so naturally written, you almost don't notice a lot of the changes at first, but on re-reads it becomes more apparent.

I think it feels natural because he's fundamentally reevaluating who he is. All that mattered to him before was sword fighting and his love of Cersei. He loses both and now has an identity crisis. It's not that he changes overnight or knows exactly who the new Jamie is. It's more like in every situation he finds himself pumping the brakes on his old habits and behaviors. He's actually considering what he's doing now which leads to naturally flowing changes.

[Springwatch]

14 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

This sticks out to me, Loras hastily accused his "brothers" of betrayal and murdered them. We don't know if they even tried to fight back. For all his faults Jaime would not have done this.

Yes and no. Old Jaime ordered the deaths Jory and Ned's other men without any hesitation.  New Jaime probably wouldn't have done that - but would do other things, just not in the madness of love like Loras.

14 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

A lot of knights will end up on opposite sides as new kings and queens are made, Jaime and Loras being on opposite sides and Jaime killing Loras is a possibility.

Can you kill your own shadow? I seem to remember a lot of parallels between Jaime and Loras. Probably the passionate, idealistic young knight is dead already.

[Light a wight tonight]

Jaime seems to grow as a person pretty much whoever he's in close contact with. IMO we see it more with Brienne than with Loras. I think the big factor is that he's out of his toxic relationship with his sister, though losing his sword hand is making him re-evaluate his position in the world.

[Curled Finger]

Brienne was the key to Jamie's turn of heart.  Through her he begins to believe in honor again.  The interactions with Loras are results of the opening of Jamie's eyes.    Jamie did not force anything on Loras but suggested a conversation with Brienne.  He could have simply shut Loras down and threatened him.   Jamie is the LC after all.  Brienne obviously had a similar effect on Loras as she had on Jamie.  It was good to read Jamie's evaluation of Loras in comparison to his younger self, but it's fairly clear that Brienne sets a standard for both men.  Hot head Loras wanted her dead.  He believed her responsible for Renly's death.  For all her self loathing and doubt, she inspires true knights to be true knights.   

[chrisdaw]

On 12/1/2021 at 5:06 AM, Springwatch said:

Can you kill your own shadow? I seem to remember a lot of parallels between Jaime and Loras. Probably the passionate, idealistic young knight is dead already.

I guess the point would be Jaime grew up from the child that Loras was to become the man (who will sacrifice a great deal for the realm) he is, and by killing Loras the world will be denied seeing the man Loras might have become. All that potential wasted for . . . because two monarchs both wished to rule? Because Loras is glory chasing? Whatever the reason it won't be good enough and if it is Jaime that does the deed he'll wish there had been another way.

A lesson for Jaime I suppose that demonstrates the errors of his battle/glory hungry youth, as well as his careless affair with the queen. The young lost in wars are the future leaders the world won't have, so avoid wars.

[Lord Lannister]

On 11/30/2021 at 3:02 PM, Light a wight tonight said:

Jaime seems to grow as a person pretty much whoever he's in close contact with. IMO we see it more with Brienne than with Loras. I think the big factor is that he's out of his toxic relationship with his sister, though losing his sword hand is making him re-evaluate his position in the world.

I agree with this fully. You remove Cersei from the equation and Jaime is arguably one of the most heroic characters in the books. Almost all of his character flaws and terrible actions stem from that relationship with Cersei. The sad thing is he is a romantic and truly loved Cersei while Cersei seemed only to see a male version of herself and got nasty whenever Jaime deviated from that. Which shows how much of a narcissist Cersei really is. 

[Apoplexy]

On 12/5/2021 at 4:49 PM, Lord Lannister said:

I agree with this fully. You remove Cersei from the equation and Jaime is arguably one of the most heroic characters in the books. Almost all of his character flaws and terrible actions stem from that relationship with Cersei. The sad thing is he is a romantic and truly loved Cersei while Cersei seemed only to see a male version of herself and got nasty whenever Jaime deviated from that. Which shows how much of a narcissist Cersei really is. 

I agree. Cersei influence was extremely toxic for Jaime. It brought out the worst in him, and it was only to serve Cersei. Once he was away from her (and Tywin), his true character could be seem. He is complicated for sure, but the good/heroic in him far outweighs the bad IMO.

[AlaskanSandman]

On 12/12/2021 at 11:13 AM, Apoplexy said:

I agree. Cersei influence was extremely toxic for Jaime. It brought out the worst in him, and it was only to serve Cersei. Once he was away from her (and Tywin), his true character could be seem. He is complicated for sure, but the good/heroic in him far outweighs the bad IMO.

This is all funny to me how people like Dany and Jamie so much, yet both are likely to disappoint people in the end. Him screwing his sister, is unforgivable to me and beyond gross. 

GRRM i think is just good at making people like and sympathize with the bad guys. 

[AlaskanSandman]

Brings to mind the fascination with bad guys the world has. Al Capone, Pablo Escobar, El Chapo, etc. People like a hero, but they love a good bay guy even more. 

[Apoplexy]

On 12/16/2021 at 12:43 AM, AlaskanSandman said:

This is all funny to me how people like Dany and Jamie so much, yet both are likely to disappoint people in the end. Him screwing his sister, is unforgivable to me and beyond gross. 

GRRM i think is just good at making people like and sympathize with the bad guys. 

I don't think Jaime is a 'bad guy' based on whatever has happened so far. I don't think people are guided towards sympathizing with him/bad guys by GRRM. I personally find his character fascinating to read. He is complex, thoughtful and in the later chapters extremely introspective. 

And trust me, I find all the incest in the books just annoying. But in a universe where monarchs routinely marry siblings, Jaime and Cersei's romantic relationship isn't all that blasphemous. It's the other dynamics in their relationship that are toxic, which are largely Cersei's faults.

[Springwatch]

There is just one time we know of that Cersei coerces Jaime - and that's to make him join the Kingsguard.

Think about it. From a young age he's surround by men he desperately wants to impress (because of their stellar reputation and fighting prowess) - and they're addicted to honour and codes of chivalry.

Most of the time Jaime behaved well - because he had to. Without them he behaves like a shit (see how he treats Bran, Jory, Cat, Brienne). Morally speaking, Cersei did him a huge favour. Ironic, isn't it?

[Apoplexy]

3 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

There is just one time we know of that Cersei coerces Jaime - and that's to make him join the Kingsguard.

Starting a sexual relationship was Cersei's idea. And considering how bad a parent Tywin was, I can understand why he acquiesced. Having Jaime's children and not Robert's was Cersei's idea. She tried to get him to terrible things like killing Arya for the incident with Joffrey, which was Joffrey's fault. She just used Jaime every way she could.

8 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

 

Think about it. From a young age he's surround by men he desperately wants to impress (because of their stellar reputation and fighting prowess) - and they're addicted to honour and codes of chivalry.

 

And all their influence wasn't enough to negate Cersei's toxicity. Jaime loved her, and she used this fact to manipulate him six ways to Sunday.

10 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

 

Most of the time Jaime behaved well - because he had to. Without them he behaves like a shit (see how he treats Bran, Jory, Cat, Brienne). Morally speaking, Cersei did him a huge favour. Ironic, isn't it?

Jaime was the eldest son of arguably the most powerful person other than the king, he didn't have to behave well. In his POVs, we see how thoughtful he is. He tries to be fair everyone including his squire and the woman he is squire is sleeping with. 

He tried to kill Bran to protect Cersie and his children, Jory was killed when Jaime retaliated against Ned for Catelyn imprisoning Tyrion. He had no reason to behave any differently with Catelyn. And as for Brienne, he saved her from rape, then from death at the hands of the mummers, gave her a priceless sword and sent her find Ned and Catelyn's daughter and take her to safety. Not sure what you mean there. 

Whenever Jaime has managed to get away from Cersei, he does so much better in every aspect. What favor did she do him?

[silverwolf22]

@Springwatch

On 12/18/2021 at 11:27 AM, Apoplexy said:

Starting a sexual relationship was Cersei's idea. And considering how bad a parent Tywin was, I can understand why he acquiesced. Having Jaime's children and not Robert's was Cersei's idea. She tried to get him to terrible things like killing Arya for the incident with Joffrey, which was Joffrey's fault. She just used Jaime every way she could.

And all their influence wasn't enough to negate Cersei's toxicity. Jaime loved her, and she used this fact to manipulate him six ways to Sunday.

Jaime was the eldest son of arguably the most powerful person other than the king, he didn't have to behave well. In his POVs, we see how thoughtful he is. He tries to be fair everyone including his squire and the woman he is squire is sleeping with. 

He tried to kill Bran to protect Cersie and his children, Jory was killed when Jaime retaliated against Ned for Catelyn imprisoning Tyrion. He had no reason to behave any differently with Catelyn. And as for Brienne, he saved her from rape, then from death at the hands of the mummers, gave her a priceless sword and sent her find Ned and Catelyn's daughter and take her to safety. Not sure what you mean there. 

Whenever Jaime has managed to get away from Cersei, he does so much better in every aspect. What favor did she do him?

preach

 

[Springwatch]

Really guys? Jaime is handsome, rich, young and witty. That does not make him good.

On 12/18/2021 at 4:27 PM, Apoplexy said:

Starting a sexual relationship was Cersei's idea. And considering how bad a parent Tywin was, I can understand why he acquiesced.

It wasn't. It was a mutual thing, that just happened without planning.

On 12/18/2021 at 4:27 PM, Apoplexy said:

Having Jaime's children and not Robert's was Cersei's idea.

That probably just happened too. And given that Jaime is a jealous lover who wanted to kill Robert a few times, I bet he didn't want Robert to impregnate his own Cersei.

On 12/18/2021 at 4:27 PM, Apoplexy said:

She tried to get him to terrible things like killing Arya for the incident with Joffrey, which was Joffrey's fault.

No - her plan was to get Robert to do it as lawful punishment for striking a royal. Much later Jaime generously interprets 'I want'  as 'kill or maim the Stark girl'.

On 12/18/2021 at 4:27 PM, Apoplexy said:

She just used Jaime every way she could.

For sex. It does appear though that Jaime's drive for sex was stronger than hers - he forcibly seduces her a few times.

On 12/18/2021 at 4:27 PM, Apoplexy said:

And all their influence wasn't enough to negate Cersei's toxicity. Jaime loved her, and she used this fact to manipulate him six ways to Sunday.

He loved her and she loved him. Her only manipulation that I remember was  joining the Kingsguard. Which as I said, must have done him a lot of good.

On 12/18/2021 at 4:27 PM, Apoplexy said:

Jaime was the eldest son of arguably the most powerful person other than the king, he didn't have to behave well.

Ned can behave well. Why can't Jaime?

On 12/18/2021 at 4:27 PM, Apoplexy said:

In his POVs, we see how thoughtful he is. He tries to be fair everyone including his squire and the woman he is squire is sleeping with. 

I think you have to separate 'old' Jaime from 'new' Jaime. And even 'new' Jaime does questionable things: the woman his squire is sleeping with has been treated as a whore, gang-raped, and badly injured - it's more likely she's desperately seeking a protector than a bit of fun in bed.

On 12/18/2021 at 4:27 PM, Apoplexy said:

He tried to kill Bran to protect Cersie and his children, Jory was killed when Jaime retaliated against Ned for Catelyn imprisoning Tyrion. He had no reason to behave any differently with Catelyn.

He had reasons - that's not the same as justification. And what happened to Bran's rights when he was being tossed out of the window???

On 12/18/2021 at 4:27 PM, Apoplexy said:

And as for Brienne, he saved her from rape, then from death at the hands of the mummers, gave her a priceless sword and sent her find Ned and Catelyn's daughter and take her to safety. Not sure what you mean there. 

Brienne repeatedly put her life on the line to get Jaime from Riverrun to King's Landing. In return he gave her a load of abuse and did his best to kill her (shove a dagger in her womb, etc). Then he abandoned her to the Goat of Harrenhal, who tried to rape her and then put her in a pit for bear-baiting.

On 12/18/2021 at 4:27 PM, Apoplexy said:

Whenever Jaime has managed to get away from Cersei, he does so much better in every aspect. What favor did she do him?

Ned says the KG were a marvel, a shining lesson to the world. Jaime wanted to be like them. Result.

[Egged]

Jaime has the same realization about Lancel. Well Lady Genna did:

Quote

Lady Genna waved her cup in dismissal. "No, that horse has left the yard. Emm has it in his pointed head that he will rule the riverlands. And Lancel . . . I suppose we should have seen this coming from afar. A life protecting the High Septon is not so different from a life protecting the king, after all. Kevan will be wroth, I fear. As wroth as Tywin was when you got it in your head to take the white.

Now Jaime will probably end up on a collision path, having to kill Lancel as he becomes the figurehead of the smallfolks who rise against the Brotherhood Without Banner (which the murderous and terrible "Hound" is now part of).

[FictionIsntReal]

On 11/30/2021 at 12:06 PM, Springwatch said:

Old Jaime ordered the deaths Jory and Ned's other men without any hesitation.

Which contradicts his claim in the very next book that he couldn't have sent the catspaw because he always does his own killing. In AGoT he's closer to his more villainous characterization in the pitch letter.

On 12/16/2021 at 12:43 AM, AlaskanSandman said:

Him screwing his sister, is unforgivable to me

Throwing a child out a window to his intended death is even more unforgivable!

On 12/16/2021 at 12:49 AM, AlaskanSandman said:

People like a hero, but they love a good bay guy even more. 

GRRM has said he created Darkstar because he was surprised by all the fans who liked Theon & Sandor.

On 12/18/2021 at 10:27 AM, Apoplexy said:

He tried to kill Bran to protect Cersie and his children

Who were at risk because Jaime foolishly had sex with Cersei in a stranger's home.

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Jory was killed when Jaime retaliated against Ned for Catelyn imprisoning Tyrion

Did Jory kidnap Tyrion? Did he kill anyone? When the Tullys had a beef with Tywin/Gregor they brought their grievance to the Iron Throne, and if Robert had been told about Tyrion being imprisoned he probably would have just ordered his release. Jaime is supposed to be a KG rather than a Lannister now (hence what he tells his father in ASoS), but instead he's attacking the king's once-and-future Hand and helping his father raid the Riverlands.

[Apoplexy]

6 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Really guys? Jaime is handsome, rich, young and witty. That does not make him good.

No one said that.

6 hours ago, Springwatch said:

It wasn't. It was a mutual thing, that just happened without planning.

No. Read the part about eel alley. Cersei called Jaime there where they slept with each other for the first time and she convinced him to join the KG so didn't have to marry Lysa.

6 hours ago, Springwatch said:

That probably just happened too. And given that Jaime is a jealous lover who wanted to kill Robert a few times, I bet he didn't want Robert to impregnate his own Cersei.

No. Read the part in Feast where Cersei recounts making sure didn't get pregnant with Robert's child. 

7 hours ago, Springwatch said:

No - her plan was to get Robert to do it as lawful punishment for striking a royal. Much later Jaime generously interprets 'I want'  as 'kill or maim the Stark girl'.

I would say Jaime was right knowing cersei.

7 hours ago, Springwatch said:

For sex. It does appear though that Jaime's drive for sex was stronger than hers - he forcibly seduces her a few times.

Jaime is not without fault for sure, but he never used sex to manipulate Cersei. Also, sex drive is besides the point.

7 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Ned can behave well. Why can't Jaime?

You said Jaime had to behave because he was KG. Now you're saying he didn't. Make up your mind. Also, Ned Stark is irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

7 hours ago, Springwatch said:

I think you have to separate 'old' Jaime from 'new' Jaime. And even 'new' Jaime does questionable things: the woman his squire is sleeping with has been treated as a whore, gang-raped, and badly injured - it's more likely she's desperately seeking a protector than a bit of fun in bed.

I think new Jaime and old Jaime are essentially the same person. The only thing 'new' about Jaime is that he is away from Cersei's influence. Also, what Pia wants in bed is irrelevant for this discussion.

 

7 hours ago, Springwatch said:

He had reasons - that's not the same as justification. And what happened to Bran's rights when he was being tossed out of the window???

Again, Jaime isn't perfect and has done some terrible things. But as you say he always had his reasons. He was never cruel for the sake of being cruel like cersei. Cersei was terribly cruel to him too.

7 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Brienne repeatedly put her life on the line to get Jaime from Riverrun to King's Landing. In return he gave her a load of abuse and did his best to kill her (shove a dagger in her womb, etc). Then he abandoned her to the Goat of Harrenhal, who tried to rape her and then put her in a pit for bear-baiting.

I don't think we are talking about the same books here.

7 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Ned says the KG were a marvel, a shining lesson to the world. Jaime wanted to be like them. Result.

Except Jaime never wanted to be KG. Cersei tricked him into joining the KG using sex to manipulate him. Again, I dont know what Ned Stark has anything to do here.