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Jaime and Loras


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4 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

I interpreted the word 'passion' to not necessarily mean having sex. Don't get me wrong, it is quite possible they were having sex before that.

Well, it goes as follows:

"Jaime had never seen her more passionate. Every time he went to sleep, she woke him again. By morning Casterly Rock seemed a small price to pay to be near her always."

I am pretty sure he is talking specifically about sex here, as in she was way more intense than usual, as we the readers can assume, to make sure Jaime agrees to go to KG for her. If this was the first time they had sex, he probably would have thought rather something like "Cersei is is having SEX with me, OMG!!11", rather than just call it "she is somehow more passionate today" :D

4 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

But he visited CR only a handful of times between ages 11-13 and it seems to me they would not want to be caught together in CR. I thought thats what the whole point of eel alley was, it was not the red keep or any  other place they could be recognized or caught.

The Eel Alley wasn't in Casterly Rock, it was in King's Landing. Casterly Rock is enormous and their home, I am sure the twins know plenty of caves there where they can be alone. Or just be in their rooms. But in King's Landing they would have to go to different inns indeed, especially if they wanted to stay alone for a long time, not just for a quick 20 minutes, and Cersei probably planned a long night of a sexy time indeed.

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40 minutes ago, Dofs said:

Well, it goes as follows:

"Jaime had never seen her more passionate. Every time he went to sleep, she woke him again. By morning Casterly Rock seemed a small price to pay to be near her always."

I am pretty sure he is talking specifically about sex here, as in she was way more intense than usual, as we the readers can assume, to make sure Jaime agrees to go to KG for her. If this was the first time they had sex, he probably would have thought rather something like "Cersei is is having SEX with me, OMG!!11", rather than just call it "she is somehow more passionate today" :D

As I've said, it's possible it wasn't the first time. And more passionate can mean usually we dry hump and OMG this time we were having sex :D What I am mostly going by is the timeline of when they were together geographically and at what age. 

40 minutes ago, Dofs said:

The Eel Alley wasn't in Casterly Rock, it was in King's Landing. Casterly Rock is enormous and their home, I am sure the twins know plenty of caves there where they can be alone. Or just be in their rooms. But in King's Landing they would have to go to different inns indeed, especially if they wanted to stay alone for a long time, not just for a quick 20 minutes, and Cersei probably planned a long night of a sexy time indeed.

Yes, I know it was in KL. Cersei and Jaime would be living/staying at the Red Keep. Being together in the red keep would be a mistake.

As for CR, Jaime was 11 when he left to squire. He returned back only a few times and then tywin took cersei to court with him. And young girls are usually monitored by their septas constantly. Of course deceiving them isnt rocket science, but it would be risky. And their mother had them separated at a younger age. I'm sure the septa would remember that. 

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7 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

I truly don't understand your point. Attacking someone in the streets in broad daylight is the polar opposite of hiring an assassin.

Jaime rode off while his goons did the killing. Thus, he was not doing his own killing himself. It's a real contrast to Ned insisting that he who passes the sentence must swing the sword and look upon the faces of the men he executes.

1 hour ago, Apoplexy said:

She did it to spite robert. Had robert massaged her ego a bit and not called out lyanna's name in bed, she would have been fine having his children. She wasn't with Jaime because she loved him, only because she could use him.

Tyrion thinks to himself that if she'd had any of Robert's children, she would not be Cersei. And he doesn't know about Robert calling out Lyanna's name.

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10 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

As for CR, Jaime was 11 when he left to squire. He returned back only a few times and then tywin took cersei to court with him. And young girls are usually monitored by their septas constantly. Of course deceiving them isnt rocket science, but it would be risky. And their mother had them separated at a younger age. I'm sure the septa would remember that. 

Well. I am pretty sure Tywin travelled to CR with Cersei a few times and Jaime probably timed his visits accordingly. And given the distances they travelled, surely these visits didn't last just a few days or smth. They probably spent plenty of time in CR, a few weeks at least. There would be plenty of time for Cersei and Jaime to start doing their thing. And I don't think a septa would keep them separated after Joanna's death.

Overall I don't think that there is much of a timing or geography issue that prevents Jaime and Cersei to start being together before the Eel Alley.

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12 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

Love is subjective. What constitutes a loving childhood is indeed subjective. In my opinion, Jaime having lost his mother at age seven left him (and tyrion and cersei) with a distant father who only cared about how his children made him look. That's a terrible environment for a child IMO. 

You are free to disagree.

You yourself argued that Tywin didn't spend that much time with the kids, hell Jaime was fostered away soon after that, and when he did Jaime was the one who got the attention and praise.

If the only person who could have a negative influence in Jaime was mostly praising him and all his parental figures actually acted as such, then ofc it's going to be a pretty good environment for a child.

 

 

12 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

He was never allowed to bond with his children, so why would he think he needs to live for them? That doesnt mean he never cared, it just means he's not that attached to them. And we know why that is. 

As for loving them as an uncle, the issue of someone suspecting their paternity comes up again. No one would suspect them of being tyrion's children.

He wasn't allowed to do so at the beginning, he wasn't cut off the children lives. Even Cersei is shocked for his coldness towards his children. And again by the time the story starts, Jaime no longer cares about the children.  He starts to care again after returning to King's Landing and having had his world turned upside down.

No one would suspect if uncle Jaime treat the kids like an uncle would. It's a really weird argument. 

 

 

13 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

She did it to spite robert. Had robert massaged her ego a bit and not called out lyanna's name in bed, she would have been fine having his children. She wasn't with Jaime because she loved him, only because she could use him.

Use him for what?

And I don't really know what has that to do with the topic at hand which is that Cersei could have gotten the moon tea without Jaime, since she had the resources to do so, just as much as she could have used Jaime. 

Her being "in danger if it's found out" is the game she chose to play anyway.

Littlefinger is also in danger if it's ever brought up to light his multiple betrayals, that doesn't mean he doesn't do it if he thinks he can get away with it.

 

 

 

13 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

Look up queen consort.

I'm sorry. She's the Queen. A consort doesn't stop being a monarch after all. They simply don't have executive powers. Which is fine, since the point wasn't whether she could enact laws but whether she could get tansy on her own.

She still has power, influence and money to get the moon tea. You're just arguing in bad faith now.

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@Springwatch  cersei did ask jaime to push bran jaimes first instinct was to catch bran (  cersei not outright ssaying it doesnt change the fact she asked him that she wanted bran pushed )

 

cersei wanted jaime to push bran she told jaime to push bran ( like she told pycelle to kill jon 

 

she sent a look

“He saw us,” the woman said shrilly.

 

“So he did,” the man said.

 

Bran’s fingers started to slip. He grabbed the ledge with his other hand. Fingernails dug into unyielding stone. The man reached down. “Take my hand,” he said. “Before you fall.”

 

Bran seized his arm and held on tight with all his strength. The man yanked him up to the ledge. “What are you doing?” the woman demanded.

 

The man ignored her. He was very strong. He stood Bran up on the sill. “How old are you, boy?”

 

“Seven,” Bran said, shaking with relief. His fingers had dug deep gouges in the man’s forearm. He let go sheepishly.

 

The man looked over at the woman. “The things I do for love,” he said with loathing. He gave Bran a shove.

 

 

 

Before Jaime pushed Bran out of the window, he looked at Cersei. He loathed the act but still pushed Bran out of the window. Cersei is known to make her point without saying the words. There is another example of this.

 

 

 

“Yes,” he [Pycelle] wimpered, “yes, Colemon was purging, so I sent him away. The queen needed Lord Arryn dead, she did not say so, could not, Varys was listening, always listening, but when I looked at her I knew. It was not me who gave him the poison, though, I swear it.”

 

 

 

Now let us see the first time Jaime and Cersei talking about Bran.

 

 

 

“I’m not ashamed of loving you, only of the things I’ve done to hide it. That boy at Winterfell . . .”

 

“Did I tell you to throw him out the window? If you’d gone hunting as I begged you, nothing would have happened. But no, you had to have me, you could not wait until we returned to the city.”

 

 

 

Cersei not only lies, but also puts the blame on Jaime to make him ashamed of himself more. She definitely wanted Bran dead. She definitely said this to Jaime without saying the words. Jaime looked at her and understood it just like Pycelle understood that Jon Arryn must die. And Cersei denies them all.

 

 

 

( cersei was cheating on him he understood that she had to sleep with robert )but its reasonable to think that they would be exclusive when he died ) 

 

 
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5 hours ago, Dofs said:

Well. I am pretty sure Tywin travelled to CR with Cersei a few times and Jaime probably timed his visits accordingly. And given the distances they travelled, surely these visits didn't last just a few days or smth. They probably spent plenty of time in CR, a few weeks at least. There would be plenty of time for Cersei and Jaime to start doing their thing. And I don't think a septa would keep them separated after Joanna's death.

Overall I don't think that there is much of a timing or geography issue that prevents Jaime and Cersei to start being together before the Eel Alley.

Of course timing visits is possible, but it just seems too much planning. And Joanna had separated them, so I am sure septas/servants were told to keep them apart. I think it's just me thinking 12 is too young for people to start having sex. Because cersei was moved to KL by the the time they were 13. 15 seems like a more appropriate age, even in the world of Westeros.

That's how I interpreted Jaime's recollection- kisses were innocent until they were not, and then they met at eel alley where they crossed the rubicon, so to speak.

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15 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Jaime rode off while his goons did the killing. Thus, he was not doing his own killing himself. It's a real contrast to Ned insisting that he who passes the sentence must swing the sword and look upon the faces of the men he executes.

It's not the same as hiring an assassin. And what ned stark would do as lord of WF is irrelevant to the discussion as the situations are apples and oranges.

15 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Tyrion thinks to himself that if she'd had any of Robert's children, she would not be Cersei. And he doesn't know about Robert calling out Lyanna's name.

Tyrion doesn't know cersei well enough it seems. She was extremely thrilled to marry robert.

4 hours ago, frenin said:

You yourself argued that Tywin didn't spend that much time with the kids, hell Jaime was fostered away soon after that, and when he did Jaime was the one who got the attention and praise.

If the only person who could have a negative influence in Jaime was mostly praising him and all his parental figures actually acted as such, then ofc it's going to be a pretty good environment for a child.

I completely disagree. I think a loving environment for a child requires more than just praise.

4 hours ago, frenin said:

He wasn't allowed to do so at the beginning, he wasn't cut off the children lives. Even Cersei is shocked for his coldness towards his children. And again by the time the story starts, Jaime no longer cares about the children.  He starts to care again after returning to King's Landing and having had his world turned upside down.

Cersei being hypocritical is not a shock. And we disagree about the bolded part.

4 hours ago, frenin said:

No one would suspect if uncle Jaime treat the kids like an uncle would. It's a really weird argument. 

The suspicion would creep in if people noticed how similar the children looked to Jaime. Hence the need to keep Jaime away from the children, to keep the visual of them together to a minimum.

4 hours ago, frenin said:

Use him for what?

And I don't really know what has that to do with the topic at hand which is that Cersei could have gotten the moon tea without Jaime, since she had the resources to do so, just as much as she could have used Jaime. 

Her being "in danger if it's found out" is the game she chose to play anyway.

Littlefinger is also in danger if it's ever brought up to light his multiple betrayals, that doesn't mean he doesn't do it if he thinks he can get away with it.

Use him to do her biding, be it anything. Like a personal attendant. Sleep with her when she wanted, how she wanted, where she wanted. Thats what Jaime recollects about the darry castle, she had sex with him to get him to kill arya. 

And LF is irrelevant to the discussion as he isn't a woman wanting to have an abortion.

4 hours ago, frenin said:

I'm sorry. She's the Queen. A consort doesn't stop being a monarch after all. They simply don't have executive powers. Which is fine, since the point wasn't whether she could enact laws but whether she could get tansy on her own.

She still has power, influence and money to get the moon tea. You're just arguing in bad faith now.

If you think queen consort is the same as queen and a aborting a king's legal heir would be easy for a queen consort to do, I have nothing further to say on the subject.

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2 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

Of course timing visits is possible, but it just seems too much planning.

I don't see why. It just takes to send a raven to Crakehall to inform that Tywin with Cersei are coming to visit CR. That's all. Jaime would just also come then. It seems to be that it's just what would naturally happen, wouldn't even call it planning.

2 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

And Joanna had separated them, so I am sure septas/servants were told to keep them apart.

If they were, Tywin would have also known about everything then. There is no way septas/servants could just freely separate the twins on their own, after Joanna's death, without someone like Tywin or Genna allowing them to.

2 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

I think it's just me thinking 12 is too young for people to start having sex. Because cersei was moved to KL by the the time they were 13. 15 seems like a more appropriate age, even in the world of Westeros.

Well, there is plenty of time between 12 and 15 to do it. As I mentioned earlier, Cersei highly likely visited CR together with Tywin after she was moved to KL.

2 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

That's how I interpreted Jaime's recollection- kisses were innocent until they were not, and then they met at eel alley where they crossed the rubicon, so to speak.

Well, I just don't believe that a guy would recall a time he had sex with his girlfriend and fail to even hint that it was actually his first time.

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3 minutes ago, Dofs said:

I don't see why. It just takes to send a raven to Crakehall to inform that Tywin with Cersei are coming to visit CR. That's all. Jaime would just also come then. It seems to be that it's just what would naturally happen, wouldn't even call it planning.

I am assuming that a squire, even someone as high profile as Tywin Lannister's son, would need to make sure the knight he is squiring for can release him from his duties. So it would take planning.

6 minutes ago, Dofs said:

If they were, Tywin would have also known about everything then. There is no way septas/servants could just freely separate the twins on their own, after Joanna's death, without someone like Tywin or Genna allowing them to.

I think Genna knew. And changing what Joanna ordered would be a strange.

9 minutes ago, Dofs said:

Well, as I told, there is plenty of time between 12 and 15 to do it. As I mentioned, Cersei highly likely visited CR together with Tywin after she was moved to KL.

There is time for sure, but the way Jaime framed it, I got a different impression. If GRRM says it started before eel alley, I would say my impression was wrong.

11 minutes ago, Dofs said:

Well, I just don't believe that a guy would recall a time he had sex with his girlfriend and fail to even hint that it was actually his first time.

It would depend on what aspect of the encounter Jaime was recalling. He wasn't recollecting that day with any fondness. And I don't see why every time he thinks of it, he has to think about how it was his first time. First times aren't always that significant 20 yrs after the fact.

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36 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

I am assuming that a squire, even someone as high profile as Tywin Lannister's son, would need to make sure the knight he is squiring for can release him from his duties. So it would take planning.

He is a son of a boss of said knight. Sumner would probably sent him there himself and wish him a happy vacation. Or go with him, because why not.

38 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

I think Genna knew. And changing what Joanna ordered would be a strange.

Nah, I don't believe Genna knew. I also don't see how changing the order would be strange. She died shortly after she gave it and later the twins were separated anyway with Jaime going to Sumner. You think in his visits the servants/septas would go out of their way to keep the twins apart? Now that would be strange. The whole castle would go "wtf is happening", most importantly, including Tywin himself.

43 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

There is time for sure, but the way Jaime framed it, I got a different impression. If GRRM says it started before eel alley, I would say my impression was wrong.

Yeah, I definitely didn't get such am impression and honestly, rereading the sequence, am not seeing what is there exactly that could give it to you.

44 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

It would depend on what aspect of the encounter Jaime was recalling. He wasn't recollecting that day with any fondness. And I don't see why every time he thinks of it, he has to think about how it was his first time. First times aren't always that significant 20 yrs after the fact.

Jaime only recalled the event once and it was significant as that's when he got convinced to enter Kingsguard. He definitely would have mentioned that losing his virginity was what convinced him, not just Cersei being more passionate than before, if it was truly their first time.

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4 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

completely disagree. I think a loving environment for a child requires more than just praise

No, it requires love, attention and care. Which Jaime by all means received.

 

 

4 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

Cersei being hypocritical is not a shock. And we disagree about the bolded part.

I have literally showed you the text highlighting his lack of care. What is to disagree?

 

 

4 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

The suspicion would creep in if people noticed how similar the children looked to Jaime. Hence the need to keep Jaime away from the children, to keep the visual of them together to a minimum.

Yeah, the children looked just like Jaime, only a blind man would have failed to notice it.

But anyone would have understood that Jaime looks just like his sister .

If anything gives away the secret is Cersei's and Jaime's obvious escapades, not the fact that Cersei's children looked just like her.

The suspicion wouldn't ever creep.

 

 

4 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

Use him to do her biding, be it anything. Like a personal attendant. Sleep with her when she wanted, how she wanted, where she wanted. Thats what Jaime recollects about the darry castle, she had sex with him to get him to kill arya. 

And LF is irrelevant to the discussion as he isn't a woman wanting to have an abortion

She already had that. Nor it's ever mentioned that she used sex to get him to kill Arya.

I mentioned Cersei literally having an affair that would cost her head and it just flew past you.

There are multiple women who use tansy to get an abortion, like Arianne Martell or Asha Greyjoy, even Ravena Smallwood points that it's easy to get in the Riverlands and that she knows who's procuring it to the peasants.

 

 

 

4 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

If you think queen consort is the same as queen and a aborting a king's legal heir would be easy for a queen consort to do, I have nothing further to say on the subject.

At any rate did I say that a Queen consort is the same as a ruler Queen. I said that consort or not Cersei still weilds immense power and influence.

And ofc that aborting a legal heir with her resources is rather easy. 

Again, you're arguing in bad faith.

 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Dofs said:

Jaime only recalled the event once and it was significant as that's when he got convinced to enter Kingsguard. He definitely would have mentioned that losing his virginity was what convinced him, not just Cersei being more passionate than before, if it was truly their first time.

He recalled it in context to being manipulated to joining the KG. Having sex for for the first time is not that significant for everyone 20 yrs after the fact. Specifically in Jaime's case he was recalling the deceit and manipulation, not exactly the sex. And I am taking into consideration their ages when they were separated and the way Jaime has framed his relationship with Cersei. If you don't see why I got that impression, we'll have to agree to disagree.

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1 hour ago, frenin said:

No, it requires love, attention and care. Which Jaime by all means received.

We disagree on the definition of love, attention and care.

1 hour ago, frenin said:

I have literally showed you the text highlighting his lack of care. What is to disagree?

And I disagree on your interpretation of the quoted words. What people mean when they use words all need context. We disagree on it.

1 hour ago, frenin said:

Yeah, the children looked just like Jaime, only a blind man would have failed to notice it.

But anyone would have understood that Jaime looks just like his sister .

If anything gives away the secret is Cersei's and Jaime's obvious escapades, not the fact that Cersei's children looked just like her.

The suspicion wouldn't ever creep

You do realize Jaime and Cersei are fraternal twins. They can have similar features but they aren't/cannot be identical. If people suspected the affair, the resemblance could fuel the fire even more.

1 hour ago, frenin said:

She already had that. Nor it's ever mentioned that she used sex to get him to kill Arya.

Jaime mentions it to Illyn Payne.

1 hour ago, frenin said:

I mentioned Cersei literally having an affair that would cost her head and it just flew past you.

She was having sex with someone who would also keep the secret. If she sent got moon tea herself or sent someone else, they dont have to keep her secret. Thats the difference.

1 hour ago, frenin said:

There are multiple women who use tansy to get an abortion, like Arianne Martell or Asha Greyjoy, even Ravena Smallwood points that it's easy to get in the Riverlands and that she knows who's procuring it to the peasants.

The difference there is they are not married, specifically married to the king.

1 hour ago, frenin said:

At any rate did I say that a Queen consort is the same as a ruler Queen. I said that consort or not Cersei still weilds immense power and influence.

It's objectively not. 

1 hour ago, frenin said:

And ofc that aborting a legal heir with her resources is rather easy. 

 

We disagree.

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51 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

He recalled it in context to being manipulated to joining the KG. Having sex for for the first time is not that significant for everyone 20 yrs after the fact. Specifically in Jaime's case he was recalling the deceit and manipulation, not exactly the sex. And I am taking into consideration their ages when they were separated and the way Jaime has framed his relationship with Cersei. If you don't see why I got that impression, we'll have to agree to disagree.

Jaime recalled it in his very first chapter in Storm, back then he did not yet see manipulation and deceit in his relationship with Cersei and hence neither in what happened in Eel Alley. The memory wasn't even a negative one, Brienne asked him why he joined the Kingsguard and he just answered to her question in his thoughts without saying it out loud to her. And back then he thought about it all in the context of love, not manipulations. Which means he was recalling exactly sex.

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1 hour ago, Dofs said:

Jaime recalled it in his very first chapter in Storm, back then he did not yet see manipulation and deceit in his relationship with Cersei and hence neither in what happened in Eel Alley. The memory wasn't even a negative one, Brienne asked him why he joined the Kingsguard and he just answered to her question in his thoughts without saying it out loud to her. And back then he thought about it all in the context of love, not manipulations. Which means he was recalling exactly sex.

Joining the KG is not necessarily a positive memory, considering Jaime says the white cloak soiled him. You are free to disagree. 

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12 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

We disagree on the definition of love, attention and care.

It seems that you disagree with the books. Since Jaime recalls Genna was a second mother to him and she lived in the castle.

 

 

12 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

And I disagree on your interpretation of the quoted words. What people mean when they use words all need context. We disagree on it.

It's not my interpretation. I'm literally stating what Jaime says or thinks and what he doesn't say or think.

 

 

 

12 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

You do realize Jaime and Cersei are fraternal twins. They can have similar features but they aren't/cannot be identical. If people suspected the affair, the resemblance could fuel the fire even more.

They are described to be very very very very similar looking. A passing resemblance to the uncle is perfectly normal when the siblings have similar traits. You don't see anyone suspecting Edmure because Robb has his traits.

 

 

 

12 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

Jaime mentions it to Illyn Payne.

You need to reread that because at any point does Jaime say that she had sex with him to get him to kill Arya.

 

 

 

12 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

She was having sex with someone who would also keep the secret. If she sent got moon tea herself or sent someone else, they dont have to keep her secret. Thats the difference

You're trolling right now. If she coerces one of her maids knights or whatever to do her bidding, they would.

And if she was paranoid about it, she could always get rid of them once the chore is done. 

It's really not that hard. You're making a mountain out of mole hill.

 

 

 

12 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

The difference there is they are not married, specifically married to the king.

The difference is that they don't have a quarter of the power Cersei has.

 

 

 

12 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

It's objectively not. 

You're not even reading what I'm saying.

 

Fair enough. This has run its course. Keep thinking Jaime is a mistreated martyr and Cersei the Boogeyman.

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11 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

Joining the KG is not necessarily a positive memory, considering Jaime says the white cloak soiled him. You are free to disagree. 

But Jaime definitely didn't remember it in the context of Cersei's deceit and manipulation.

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On 1/1/2022 at 6:04 PM, Dofs said:

Oh, you 'of course 'do. Then if you do, can you please explain me, what the in the world were these your posts:

"And it makes a total nonsense of Jaime's revelation that 'I want' meant 'kill or maim'' - what exactly is he so shocked about if he knew it all already?"

"Easy. It's in the text. He's gone from love to hate. He's gone from thinking Cersei is the Maiden, to thinking she's the Stranger - and he's not bothered about the truthiness of his accusations"

If you understand that he thought Cersei meant to "maim or kill" already in Game, well before he has gone from seeing Maiden in Cersei to Stranger, what was the point of what you wrote there. Because it really looks to me that you "of course" didn't get it all when you wrote all that to me and are now backtracking.

Looks like I do need to clarify.

I know the bits that are directly from the text, i.e. Jaime went to search for Arya after sex with Cersei. Also that early Jaime is proud, impulsive, prone to anger, has little value for the lives of others, likes to solve problems by hitting them with a sword.

I don't know the bits that are your analysis. I don't know that Cersei instructed Jaime to attack Arya. I don't know that Jaime had a plan in his head at all, his own or Cersei's, when he left. But if he was in an angry, vengeful mood when he found her, she would be in extreme danger. Same as Jory.

So no backtracking. Cersei at the Trident is still the Maiden in Jaime's eyes and he expects words of love.

And now I am finished

On 1/2/2022 at 1:22 PM, silverwolf22 said:

@Springwatch 

 

Before Jaime pushed Bran out of the window, he looked at Cersei. He loathed the act but still pushed Bran out of the window. Cersei is known to make her point without saying the words.

Right now, that interpretation doesn't look likely. Cersei isn't shy about killing children - so there's no motive for her to deny she wanted Bran pushed (she does deny it).

If Jaime thinks he can read Cersei's looks, he's probably wrong. There's also that line, 'The man ignored her', which shows Jaime is taking the lead here.

But... if the new books take a twist towards full-on fantasy and psychic powers, we could take another look at this scene.

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46 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

Looks like I do need to clarify.

I know the bits that are directly from the text, i.e. Jaime went to search for Arya after sex with Cersei. Also that early Jaime is proud, impulsive, prone to anger, has little value for the lives of others, likes to solve problems by hitting them with a sword.

I don't know the bits that are your analysis. I don't know that Cersei instructed Jaime to attack Arya. I don't know that Jaime had a plan in his head at all, his own or Cersei's, when he left. But if he was in an angry, vengeful mood when he found her, she would be in extreme danger. Same as Jory.

So no backtracking. Cersei at the Trident is still the Maiden in Jaime's eyes and he expects words of love.

And now I am finished

Well given what you quoted, you definitely failed to clarify it. The way I see what you are saying:

In Game

1) Jaime and Cersei have sex in Darry during which Cersei screams "I want". Jaime thinks she means she wants him. They don't speak to each other after she screamed it.

2) Jaime decides he doesn't have much to do and goes to search for a Ned Stark's daughter

3) He becomes angry during the search and is having a problem

4) The only solution he comes up with to deal with it is to maim/kill Arya but fortunately for her, she was found by others

Fast forward to Feast

5) Jaime realizes that Cersei has been always lying and cheating to him

6) He stops seeing a Maiden in her and starts to see her as a Stranger

7) Then he comes to a realisation that surprises him, he starts to think that actually (!) when Cersei was saying "I want", she was meaning she wanted him to maim or kill Arya!

Did I get it right? Because that's what I am getting from all your posts and it also makes little sense to me.

 

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