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Jaime and Loras


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On 12/29/2021 at 6:05 PM, Springwatch said:

But none of this matters. Because Cersei didn't finish. Jaime couldn't be manipulated because she never told him what she wanted. And he thought she was talking about him.

I think it's pretty obvious that there was more to their conversation than what Jaime specifically recalls where she explicitly told Jaime what exactly did she want to do with Arya. 

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3 hours ago, Dofs said:

I think it's pretty obvious that there was more to their conversation than what Jaime specifically recalls where she explicitly told Jaime what exactly did she want to do with Arya. 

What's obvious about it? This theory has no basis, just the assumption that Jaime was innocent all along and all the facts must bend around that.

And it makes a total nonsense of Jaime's revelation that 'I want' meant 'kill or maim'' - what exactly is he so shocked about if he knew it all already?

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2 hours ago, Springwatch said:

What's obvious about it? This theory has no basis, just the assumption that Jaime was innocent all along and all the facts must bend around that.

And it makes a total nonsense of Jaime's revelation that 'I want' meant 'kill or maim'' - what exactly is he so shocked about if he knew it all already?

"As I was fucking her, Cersei cried, 'I want' I thought that she meant me, but it was the Stark girl that she wanted, maimed or dead." 

How exactly did Jaime switch from his assumption that I want means 'him' to I want means 'kill or maim Arya'? What was Jaime's logic exactly? It's pretty obvious that Cersei simply told him what exactly she wanted just after. Jaime simply is not narrating the whole conversation they had.

And what Jaime's revelation are you talking about? Neither was Jaime shocked when he was telling all of that, he was angry.

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16 hours ago, Dofs said:

How exactly did Jaime switch from his assumption that I want means 'him' to I want means 'kill or maim Arya'? What was Jaime's logic exactly?

Easy. It's in the text. He's gone from love to hate. He's gone from thinking Cersei is the Maiden, to thinking she's the Stranger - and he's not bothered about the truthiness of his accusations (why the heck would Cersei sleep with Moonboy?)

16 hours ago, Dofs said:

It's pretty obvious that Cersei simply told him what exactly she wanted just after.

It's only obvious to people who are already convinced that Cersei is to blame for all Jaime's bad actions. I'm not. 

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1 hour ago, Springwatch said:

Easy. It's in the text. He's gone from love to hate. He's gone from thinking Cersei is the Maiden, to thinking she's the Stranger - and he's not bothered about the truthiness of his accusations (why the heck would Cersei sleep with Moonboy?)

You do realise, I hope, that Jaime went looking for Arya shortly after he had his conversation with Cersei and was planning to get her killed or maimed back then already? Meaning that it was back then when he though Cersei wanted it to happen, that it's not something Jaime just decided in Feast what Cersei meant?

Jaime also flat out think how he understood the "Moonboy" bit as a cruel joke from Tyrion and that he wasn't truly Cersei's lover...

1 hour ago, Springwatch said:

It's only obvious to people who are already convinced that Cersei is to blame for all Jaime's bad actions. I'm not. 

I mean... I don't believe this has anything to do with what one's opinion is about Cersei or Jaime. This is simply what is blatantly written in the books. Seriously, just reread carefully the scene. You are misunderstanding it heavily.

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On 12/30/2021 at 3:38 AM, frenin said:

My point is that we have no indication that was their first sexual encounter

I think it was, since they were 11-12 when Jaime left to squire for sumner crakehall. But yes, it isn't explicitly said in text it was.

On 12/30/2021 at 3:38 AM, frenin said:

What do you think constitutes love and affection? And why wouldn't Jaime have gotten those from his family, friends and peers?

Who offered Jaime any love or affection? Maybe Genna, but she wasn't around much. Which friends? which peers?

On 12/30/2021 at 3:38 AM, frenin said:

Why do you think that Jaime can't be bothered to remind his children then?

Remind them of what?

On 12/30/2021 at 3:38 AM, frenin said:

For having children not their own? They find it extremely easier.

All i'm going to say is long term committed relationships aren't as easy as that.

On 12/30/2021 at 3:38 AM, frenin said:

I think you're overestimating it.

People do crazy things while in love but they aren't under a spell. 

Again, interpersonal relationships aren't that easy.

On 12/30/2021 at 3:38 AM, frenin said:

Jaime literally got her abortifacent, you can't be more proactive than that.

Proactive would be suggesting she have the abortion, not arrange for the means when Cersei made the decision. If anything, I am glad he did. Cersie didn't want that pregnancy and there was no way she could procure the abortifacient by herself.

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On 12/30/2021 at 9:30 PM, FictionIsntReal said:

So you agree with me that this contradicts his claim that he could not have sent Bran's catspaw because he does his own killing?

I truly don't understand your point. Attacking someone in the streets in broad daylight is the polar opposite of hiring an assassin.

On 12/30/2021 at 9:30 PM, FictionIsntReal said:

No, we disagree on the definition of "voluntary".

Yes, absolutely.

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3 hours ago, Dofs said:

You do realise, I hope, that Jaime went looking for Arya shortly after he had his conversation with Cersei and was planning to get her killed or maimed back then already? Meaning that it was back then when he though Cersei wanted it to happen, that it's not something Jaime just decided in Feast what Cersei meant?

Of course I know. And you are saying there must, 'obviously', have been a further conversation where Cersei instructs Jaime to kill Arya, otherwise he wouldn't have thought of it. This logic is wrong.

  1. GRRM doesn't feel the need for unfinished sentences to be clarified. The usual pattern is for the listener to jump in and finish the sentence for themselves, allowing a false narrative to appear.
  2. Jaime will do violent, terrible things for Cersei without asking or being asked - which he calls 'the things I do for love'; applied to both Arya and Bran.
  3. Jaime will do violent, terrible things without any reference to Cersei at all - e.g. ordering the deaths of Ned's men: "Still... we wouldn't want him to leave here entirely unchastened, so" --- through the night and the rain, he glimpsed the white of Jaime's smile --- "kill his men."
  4. Jaime is not the odd one out in the Lannister family. He has the same faults of anger, pride, and having little value for other people. It's not out of character for him to kill Arya - just as he tried to with Bran. Tyrion also says he is impulsive: His sister was not without a certain low cunning, but her pride blinded her. She would see the insult in this, not the opportunity. And Jaime was even worse, rash and headstrong and quick to anger. His brother never untied a knot when he could slash it in two with his sword.

Conclusion: there's no logical need for additional demands from Cersei. If Jaime wouldn't move without a direct instruction, I'd expect that to be backed up with facts in the text. But the facts go the other way.

3 hours ago, Dofs said:

Jaime also flat out think how he understood the "Moonboy" bit as a cruel joke from Tyrion and that he wasn't truly Cersei's lover...

He flat out thinks he doesn't know: Lancel and Ser Osmund and how many more? Was the part about Moon Boy just a gibe?

3 hours ago, Dofs said:

I mean... I don't believe this has anything to do with what one's opinion is about Cersei or Jaime. This is simply what is blatantly written in the books. Seriously, just reread carefully the scene. You are misunderstanding it heavily.

I like my quotes better than your arguments, basically. Anyway, I'm done here.

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20 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Of course I know.

Oh, you 'of course 'do. Then if you do, can you please explain me, what the in the world were these your posts:

"And it makes a total nonsense of Jaime's revelation that 'I want' meant 'kill or maim'' - what exactly is he so shocked about if he knew it all already?"

"Easy. It's in the text. He's gone from love to hate. He's gone from thinking Cersei is the Maiden, to thinking she's the Stranger - and he's not bothered about the truthiness of his accusations"

If you understand that he thought Cersei meant to "maim or kill" already in Game, well before he has gone from seeing Maiden in Cersei to Stranger, what was the point of what you wrote there. Because it really looks to me that you "of course" didn't get it all when you wrote all that to me and are now backtracking.

20 hours ago, Springwatch said:

GRRM doesn't feel the need for unfinished sentences to be clarified. The usual pattern is for the listener to jump in and finish the sentence for themselves, allowing a false narrative to appear.

There is nothing to finish there, there is no false narrative. All your analysis falls flat when Jaime flat out tells he thought Cersei meant him by 'I want'. That's a fact that flies in the face of all your conclusions. Then Jaime finds out he was wrong. You can of course go into the fantasy of analysing all Jaime's chapters, his speech patterns, mannerisms to find out how did he find out that he was wrong there, or just take the most obvious explanation possible - that Cersei clarified it. You treat the scene as if it's a flashback and that the whole scene starts and ends exactly where Jaime recalls it, when in actuality it's just Jaime monologuing to Ilyn Payne. There is nothing to discern there, there is no mystery in his speech.

20 hours ago, Springwatch said:

He flat out thinks he doesn't know: Lancel and Ser Osmund and how many more? Was the part about Moon Boy just a gibe?

This obviously shows that he fully trusts the fact that she slept with Osmund (no one confirmed that to him), but he still is not treating the part about Moonboy seriously. Otherwise, why he knows that she slept with Osmund but not with Moonboy?

20 hours ago, Springwatch said:

I like my quotes better than your arguments, basically.

Well, my arguments are the quotes from the books. You just made a huge assumption and made even more assumptions as arguments to come to a ridiculous conclusion in a place, where the conclusion is already on the surface. And no, you did not provide any quotes that confirm your conclusion (as obviously there are none), so I am not sure what 'your' quotes you are talking about.

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1 hour ago, Apoplexy said:

I think it was, since they were 11-12 when Jaime left to squire for sumner crakehall. But yes, it isn't explicitly said in text it was.

Damn and Jaime not only doesn't note the fact that he's losing his virginity but he can pull an all nighter.

 

 

1 hour ago, Apoplexy said:

Who offered Jaime any love or affection? Maybe Genna, but she wasn't around much. Which friends? which peers?

His aunt Genna, his uncles Gerion, Tygget and Kevan, his cousins including Daven, his mother and father who saw in Jaime the culmination of his ambitions, his peers and friends like Adam Marbrand...

The idea that Jaime wasn't a beloved child is completely unsupported by the text.

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Apoplexy said:

Remind them of what?

Are you intentionally playing dumb?

Why doesn't Jaime so much as recall them, why Jaime point blank states that his top priority of concerns are his father and siblings?

 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Apoplexy said:

All i'm going to say is long term committed relationships aren't as easy as that.

Sometimes they are and Jaime is a jealous man.

 

 

1 hour ago, Apoplexy said:

Again, interpersonal relationships aren't that easy.

No, they don't render you a drone however.

 

 

1 hour ago, Apoplexy said:

Proactive would be suggesting she have the abortion, not arrange for the means when Cersei made the decision. If anything, I am glad he did. Cersie didn't want that pregnancy and there was no way she could procure the abortifacient by herself.

It's your opinion that Cersei had made the decision, all we have is Jaime being very much against Cersei touching another man. And Cersei is Queen, she would have a very easy way of getting moon tea.

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1 hour ago, Apoplexy said:

I think it was, since they were 11-12 when Jaime left to squire for sumner crakehall. But yes, it isn't explicitly said in text it was.

I think the phrase "Jaime had never seen her more passionate." kinda indicates that he haw her passionate before and hence it indeed wasn't their first time. Plus him being with Sumner since 11-12 doesn't mean he never saw Cersei since he left there. He highly likely travelled both to Casterly Rock and King's Landing when he was a squire.

Though I do agree with you that it's probably Cersei who initiated the relationship still and not Jaime, since Jaime was clearly not a driver of their relationship and was not a proactive person overall, especially before losing his hand.

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3 minutes ago, frenin said:

Damn and Jaime not only doesn't note the fact that he's losing his virginity but he can pull an all nighter.

Why do you think he is going to think about every single aspect of that evening every single time he thinks about it? 

6 minutes ago, frenin said:

His aunt Genna, his uncles Gerion, Tygget and Kevan, his cousins including Daven, his mother and father who saw in Jaime the culmination of his ambitions, his peers and friends like Adam Marbrand...

The idea that Jaime wasn't a beloved child is completely unsupported by the text.

Jaime's mother for loved him for sure. If you believe tywin to be capable of being loving, we are reading different books. And his aunts and uncles can only go so far in influencing his childhood environment.

22 minutes ago, frenin said:

Are you intentionally playing dumb?

No, I'm just that dumb.

23 minutes ago, frenin said:

Why doesn't Jaime so much as recall them, why Jaime point blank states that his top priority of concerns are his father and siblings?

Because his just their biological father. he was never allowed to be close to them.

24 minutes ago, frenin said:

Sometimes they are and Jaime is a jealous man.

If you think it's easy to refuse a long term partner's request for children, we completely disagree.

27 minutes ago, frenin said:

No, they don't render you a drone however.

We disagree. It is extremely easy to be manipulated by someone you love. And it doesn't just have to be romantic love.

28 minutes ago, frenin said:

It's your opinion that Cersei had made the decision, all we have is Jaime being very much against Cersei touching another man. 

 Cersei repeatedly thinks about making the decision. SO we disagree on the interpretation of text.

30 minutes ago, frenin said:

And Cersei is Queen, she would have a very easy way of getting moon tea.

That would be treason and she would be beheaded.

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30 minutes ago, Dofs said:

I think the phrase "Jaime had never seen her more passionate." kinda indicates that he haw her passionate before and hence it indeed wasn't their first time. Plus him being with Sumner since 11-12 doesn't mean he never saw Cersei since he left there. He highly likely travelled both to Casterly Rock and King's Landing when he was a squire.

I interpreted the word 'passion' to not necessarily mean having sex. Don't get me wrong, it is quite possible they were having sex before that. But he visited CR only a handful of times between ages 11-13 and it seems to me they would not want to be caught together in CR. I thought thats what the whole point of eel alley was, it was not the red keep or any  other place they could be recognized or caught.

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15 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

Why do you think he is going to think about every single aspect of that evening every single time he thinks about it? 

Every single aspect? I'm certainly not saying he should recall everything about it, just you know important bits. Jaime's own recollection of the events are pretty hard to match with that of a virgin.

 

 

19 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

Jaime's mother for loved him for sure. If you believe tywin to be capable of being loving, we are reading different books. And his aunts and uncles can only go so far in influencing his childhood environment.

No, I didn't say Tywin was loving, I said he showed him affection, which he did.

And given that Tywin was away most of the time in KL, his aunts, uncles and so on and so forth would be the ones actually influencing his childhood environment.

 

 

 

21 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

Because his just their biological father. he was never allowed to be close to them.

??? He was their father in secret and their uncle in public. He could have been close to them if he wanted to, hell he should have. He simply chose not to.

Which is the point I'm making, Jaime didn't care about the children prior losing his hand and reevaluating his life decisions.

 

 

24 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

If you think it's easy to refuse a long term partner's request for children, we completely disagree

Easy? No, possible?? Yes.

Still, Jaime obviously didn't want a Bobby Jr coming out Cersei's legs.

 

 

25 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

Cersei repeatedly thinks about making the decision. SO we disagree on the interpretation of text.

She doesn't actually. She never recalls that moment again.

 

 

26 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

That would be treason and she would be beheaded.

And Jaime's action wouldn't be treasonous and deserving a death sentence?

 

 

 

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Just now, frenin said:

Every single aspect? I'm certainly not saying he should recall everything about it, just you know important bits. Jaime's own recollection of the events are pretty hard to match with that of a virgin.

You are free to disagree.

1 minute ago, frenin said:

No, I didn't say Tywin was loving, I said he showed him affection, which he did.

And given that Tywin was away most of the time in KL, his aunts, uncles and so on and so forth would be the ones actually influencing his childhood environment.

No, its usually maids and servants.

2 minutes ago, frenin said:

??? He was their father in secret and their uncle in public. He could have been close to them if he wanted to, hell he should have. He simply chose not to.

Which is the point I'm making, Jaime didn't care about the children prior losing his hand and reevaluating his life decisions.

No, cersei forbade him from being close to the children so there would suspicion about their paternity. Which implies Jaime wanted to be close to his children and this was before he lost his hand. WHich implies he did care.

12 minutes ago, frenin said:

Easy? No, possible?? Yes.

Still, Jaime obviously didn't want a Bobby Jr coming out Cersei's legs.

Of course Jaime wouldn't want it for heaven's sake. But nothing in text indicates he did anything to ensure that cersei got pregnant with his child or that he made sure cersei didn't have robert's children.

17 minutes ago, frenin said:

She doesn't actually. She never recalls that moment again.

In AGOT she talks to with contempt Ned stark about being pregnant with robert's child. She says 'my brother brought me a substance', which indicates she couldn't get moon tea as she was queen and had Jaime bring it to her. In AFFC, she thinks about how she satisfied robert in other ways so she didn't have to have his children. 

21 minutes ago, frenin said:

And Jaime's action wouldn't be treasonous and deserving a death sentence?

Only if someone knew it was for cersei. Jaime can say it's for some noblewoman/whore he got pregnant or not give any explanation at all. Prime example of sexism and misogyny.

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22 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

No, its usually maids and servants.

Who ofc didn't show him love or affection... Come on... There's never a point in which Jaime's childhood is devoid of love or affection.

Golden boys are usually hella pampered.

 

 

22 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

No, cersei forbade him from being close to the children so there would suspicion about their paternity. Which implies Jaime wanted to be close to his children and this was before he lost his hand. WHich implies he did care.

Yes, the first years, she forbade him to be overly close, not to you know, he stopped giving a shit about them.

And again, I too think that you're playing dumb because the issue was whether he cared at the beginning of the books or not. And, no he didn't.

 

 

 

22 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

Of course Jaime wouldn't want it for heaven's sake. But nothing in text indicates he did anything to ensure that cersei got pregnant with his child or that he made sure cersei didn't have robert's children.

Jaime got Cersei the moon tea.

How can the text not indicate that Jaime made sure that Cersei didn't have Robert's children if Jaime's literally the means she gets to have an abortion?

 

 

22 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

In AGOT she talks to with contempt Ned stark about being pregnant with robert's child. She says 'my brother brought me a substance', which indicates she couldn't get moon tea as she was queen and had Jaime bring it to her. In AFFC, she thinks about how she satisfied robert in other ways so she didn't have to have his children. 

 

At any point it indicates that she couldn't get the moon tea as she was the Queen, you're jumping into that conclusion yourself. 

It indicates however that Jaime was perfectly willing to avoid Cersei having another man's children.

 

 

22 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

Only if someone knew it was for cersei. Jaime can say it's for some noblewoman/whore he got pregnant or not give any explanation at all. Prime example of sexism and misogyny.

And Cersei can do just the same... She's Lannister and she's Queen, she has access to a ton of resources to get the moon tea without no one asking questions or even knowing to whom the moon tea is going.

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1 hour ago, frenin said:

Who ofc didn't show him love or affection... Come on... There's never a point in which Jaime's childhood is devoid of love or affection.

Golden boys are usually hella pampered.

If you think that constitutes a loving childhood, we disagree on what a loving childhood is.

1 hour ago, frenin said:

Yes, the first years, she forbade him to be overly close, not to you know, he stopped giving a shit about them.

And again, I too think that you're playing dumb because the issue was whether he cared at the beginning of the books or not. And, no he didn't.

If he didn't care, he would never have wanted to be close to them. It's not that he doesn't care, he is angry and bitter than was never allowed to be a father/father figure to them.

1 hour ago, frenin said:

Jaime got Cersei the moon tea.

How can the text not indicate that Jaime made sure that Cersei didn't have Robert's children if Jaime's literally the means she gets to have an abortion?

Depends on whose idea it was, not who facilitated it. If i want to dye my hair and request a friend/partner to get dye for me which I use, it doesn't mean they want my hair to be a different color.

1 hour ago, frenin said:

At any point it indicates that she couldn't get the moon tea as she was the Queen, you're jumping into that conclusion yourself. 

Its not my idea, its just how monarchies and medieval societies worked. Cersei wasn't a 'queen', she was but the king's consort. Her one job was birthing his children.

1 hour ago, frenin said:

It indicates however that Jaime was perfectly willing to avoid Cersei having another man's children.

As ive said before, of course he didn't want her to have robert's children. Thats understandable and obvious. But cersei not having robert's children wasn't his idea.

1 hour ago, frenin said:

And Cersei can do just the same... She's Lannister and she's Queen, she has access to a ton of resources to get the moon tea without no one asking questions or even knowing to whom the moon tea is going.

She's not the 'queen'. 

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39 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

If you think that constitutes a loving childhood, we disagree on what a loving childhood is.

You're not even trying to argue why, just dismissing everything in basis of your subjective opinion.

Jaime had the love and support of everyone around him, he had a cold father but he didn't see him most of the time and when he did see him, said father treated him like the golden boy he was.

Everyone around him loved and cherished him, what is that he's lacking?

 

 

43 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

If he didn't care, he would never have wanted to be close to them. It's not that he doesn't care, he is angry and bitter than was never allowed to be a father/father figure to them.

Yes, once he loses his hand and he starts to reevaluating his life.

We're in his mind prior that and he doesn't care, his children aren't even a reason for him to try and live. His dead soldiers are however.

And Jaime could have been close to them, he could have actually tried and be their uncle, but he, not Cersei he, decided that if he was not allowed to be the father, he'd be nothing to them. To children he literally saw every day and treat him and, allegedly, loved him as an uncle as they did Tyrion.

 

 

 

47 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

Depends on whose idea it was, not who facilitated it. If i want to dye my hair and request a friend/partner to get dye for me which I use, it doesn't mean they want my hair to be a different color.

No, it means they made sure your hair was dyed.

And if your partner or friend spent their life moaning about how little did they like your hair color, it doesn't mean that they didn't influence you once you decided to dye your hair.

 

 

 

49 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

Its not my idea, its just how monarchies and medieval societies worked. Cersei wasn't a 'queen', she was but the king's consort. Her one job was birthing his children.

It's your idea. What's legal or what isn't is completely inmaterial to the question of whether Cersei could have gotten moon tea by her own or not. Yes, she could have. She has the resources to procure herself the moon tea without getting caught. That's just a fact.

Yes, she could have been killed if she was caught, just as she would have been killed if the twincest story ever came close to her husband's ears and she did it anyway.

 

 

 

52 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

She's not the 'queen'. 

She is the Queen.

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20 minutes ago, frenin said:

You're not even trying to argue why, just dismissing everything in basis of your subjective opinion.

Jaime had the love and support of everyone around him, he had a cold father but he didn't see him most of the time and when he did see him, said father treated him like the golden boy he was.

Everyone around him loved and cherished him, what is that he's lacking?

Love is subjective. What constitutes a loving childhood is indeed subjective. In my opinion, Jaime having lost his mother at age seven left him (and tyrion and cersei) with a distant father who only cared about how his children made him look. That's a terrible environment for a child IMO. 

You are free to disagree.

20 minutes ago, frenin said:

Yes, once he loses his hand and he starts to reevaluating his life.

We're in his mind prior that and he doesn't care, his children aren't even a reason for him to try and live. His dead soldiers are however.

And Jaime could have been close to them, he could have actually tried and be their uncle, but he, not Cersei he, decided that if he was not allowed to be the father, he'd be nothing to them. To children he literally saw every day and treat him and, allegedly, loved him as an uncle as they did Tyrion.

He was never allowed to bond with his children, so why would he think he needs to live for them? That doesnt mean he never cared, it just means he's not that attached to them. And we know why that is. 

As for loving them as an uncle, the issue of someone suspecting their paternity comes up again. No one would suspect them of being tyrion's children.

20 minutes ago, frenin said:

No, it means they made sure your hair was dyed.

And if your partner or friend spent their life moaning about how little did they like your hair color, it doesn't mean that they didn't influence you once you decided to dye your hair.

We completely disagree.

20 minutes ago, frenin said:

It's your idea. What's legal or what isn't is completely inmaterial to the question of whether Cersei could have gotten moon tea by her own or not. Yes, she could have. She has the resources to procure herself the moon tea without getting caught. That's just a fact.

We disagree.

20 minutes ago, frenin said:

Yes, she could have been killed if she was caught, just as she would have been killed if the twincest story ever came close to her husband's ears and she did it anyway.

She did it to spite robert. Had robert massaged her ego a bit and not called out lyanna's name in bed, she would have been fine having his children. She wasn't with Jaime because she loved him, only because she could use him.

20 minutes ago, frenin said:

She is the Queen.

Look up queen consort.

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