Willam Stark Posted November 30, 2021 Share Posted November 30, 2021 Robert killed Rhaegar who is his second cousin through Aegon V & Betha Blackwood, can we consider him as a kinslayer? If not, at what level of kinship can we consider a murder within one's family as a kinslaying? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilac & Gooseberries Posted November 30, 2021 Share Posted November 30, 2021 Robert has been called many things in universe and here some of them are justifiable and some are not. Kinslayer isn't one of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenin Posted November 30, 2021 Share Posted November 30, 2021 Short story, yes. Long story, no one knows. He's never called that in the books, then again the blood relationship between both families are ignored by everyone and their mother so... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord of Oldstones Posted November 30, 2021 Share Posted November 30, 2021 Yes. They share same paternal lineage being bastard cadet branch and they are 2nd cousin also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EggBlue Posted November 30, 2021 Share Posted November 30, 2021 I think the Usurper label is so big that there's not enough room for Kinslayer label... but yeah his enemies could easily call him a kinslayer ."second cousin" isn't exactly a "distant" relative . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Groo Posted December 1, 2021 Share Posted December 1, 2021 On 11/30/2021 at 9:46 AM, EggBlue said: I think the Usurper label is so big that there's not enough room for Kinslayer label... but yeah his enemies could easily call him a kinslayer ."second cousin" isn't exactly a "distant" relative . It does seem that kinslaying ranks lower than usurping. During Dance of the Dragons were any of the factions running around calling each other kinslayers? Did any lords refuse to choose sides because it would inevitably mean supporting kinslayers? The same goes for the War of Five Kings. When deciding to support Renly or Stannis was anyone worried that they might end up supporting a kinslayer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Commentator Posted December 1, 2021 Share Posted December 1, 2021 Technically, yes. But the public ignore it because it was a: a fair fight, b: war, c: no one calls Robert kinslayer to his face, d: it was a duel of honor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Universal Sword Donor Posted December 1, 2021 Share Posted December 1, 2021 Yes but winners right the histories The Citadel: So Spake Martin - Kinslaying in Westeros There are degrees in kinslaying, as in anything else. Fighting a battle in which a brother dies might be frowned upon, but killing him with your own hand would be considered far worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brynden"Bloodraven" Rivers Posted December 1, 2021 Share Posted December 1, 2021 2 hours ago, Groo said: It does seem that kinslaying ranks lower than usurping. During Dance of the Dragons were any of the factions running around calling each other kinslayers? Did any lords refuse to choose sides because it would inevitably mean supporting kinslayers? The same goes for the War of Five Kings. When deciding to support Renly or Stannis was anyone worried that they might end up supporting a kinslayer? Aemond One-Eye is called kinslayer and I believe Criston Cole is too. Aegon II is also cursed as a kinslayer by the Shepherd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canon Claude Posted December 1, 2021 Share Posted December 1, 2021 16 minutes ago, Brynden"Bloodraven" Rivers said: Aemond One-Eye is called kinslayer and I believe Criston Cole is too. Aegon II is also cursed as a kinslayer by the Shepherd. Why would Cole be called a kinslayer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Lannister Posted December 2, 2021 Share Posted December 2, 2021 Would anyone blink an eye if a noble married their second cousin? I think the answer is the same for kinslaying your second cousin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brynden"Bloodraven" Rivers Posted December 2, 2021 Share Posted December 2, 2021 5 hours ago, Canon Claude said: Why would Cole be called a kinslayer? I don't know I think Robb Rivers calls him a kinslayer. That part confuses me too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EggBlue Posted December 2, 2021 Share Posted December 2, 2021 5 hours ago, Lord Lannister said: Would anyone blink an eye if a noble married their second cousin? I think the answer is the same for kinslaying your second cousin. but nobles don't blink an eye if someone marries a first-cousin too. it seems only siblings are the limit! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenin Posted December 2, 2021 Share Posted December 2, 2021 14 hours ago, Groo said: It does seem that kinslaying ranks lower than usurping. During Dance of the Dragons were any of the factions running around calling each other kinslayers? Yes, Aemond is remembered as Aemond the Kinslayer. 14 hours ago, Groo said: The same goes for the War of Five Kings. When deciding to support Renly or Stannis was anyone worried that they might end up supporting a kinslayer I doubt they thought it might come to that. That's the whole reason of Penrose and Stannis's exchange. Why do you think that the murder or Renly is kept a secret? How many bannermen do you think would follow Stannis if the truth came up. 12 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said: Yes but winners right the histories He's not called Kinslayer even among the losers tho. Dany never calls him that, nor does Jorah, JonCon ,Barristan or Varys. It doesn't make sense use the "winners decide the history" here, Robert is called a usurper by his enemies. He's never called a Kinslayer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wondering Wolf Posted December 2, 2021 Share Posted December 2, 2021 6 hours ago, Brynden"Bloodraven" Rivers said: I don't know I think Robb Rivers calls him a kinslayer. That part confuses me too. Cole was called 'the Kingmaker', not a kinslayer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Lannister Posted December 2, 2021 Share Posted December 2, 2021 7 hours ago, EggBlue said: but nobles don't blink an eye if someone marries a first-cousin too. it seems only siblings are the limit! Seems the same with kinslaying really. Only really "counts" with immediate family. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wondering Wolf Posted December 2, 2021 Share Posted December 2, 2021 4 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said: Seems the same with kinslaying really. Only really "counts" with immediate family. Otherwise half of Westeros' nobility would become kinslayers everytime there is a war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Universal Sword Donor Posted December 2, 2021 Share Posted December 2, 2021 8 hours ago, frenin said: He's not called Kinslayer even among the losers tho. Dany never calls him that, nor does Jorah, JonCon ,Barristan or Varys. It doesn't make sense use the "winners decide the history" here, Robert is called a usurper by his enemies. He's never called a Kinslayer. He is *literally* a kinslayer. That much isn't up for debate. He killed his second cousin in battle. But, as we see GRRM explicitly say, killing a family member on the field of battle isn't the same crime as having him executed. We're really just arguing gravity of the offense here, and luckily it is a moot point. One's sobriquet derives from your most significant / infamous achievement. Jaime is the Kingslayer after Aerys. William (formerly the Bastard) became William the Conqueror after Hastings. Robert became King Robert / the Usurper after overthrowing the Targaryen Dynasty." "Build a thousand walls and no one calls you Seamus the mason, but you fuck one goat and ..... " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenin Posted December 2, 2021 Share Posted December 2, 2021 2 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said: One's sobriquet derives from your most significant / infamous achievement. It's not mutually exclusive. One can be called out for his most infamous achievement without forgetting the rest. Like Egg's enemies called him a lot of mean things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Universal Sword Donor Posted December 2, 2021 Share Posted December 2, 2021 11 minutes ago, frenin said: It's not mutually exclusive. One can be called out for his most infamous achievement without forgetting the rest. Like Egg's enemies called him a lot of mean things. Right but that's not his nickname. That's Aegon the Unlikely. No one calls him Aegon "half a peasant" or Aegon "none of his damned kids honored their engagements" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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