US Politics: Roe, Roe, Roe you’re gone? (Hope not)

[Centrist Simon Steele]

23 minutes ago, ThinkerX said:

Many years ago, my brothers common law wife started taking the Ritalin that was issued to her pre-teen kids. An assortment of hallucinations followed. The ones that stand out...

'The Bear Incident.' She called up my dad, (homestead across the highway from my brothers place) and told him that there were some men being attacked by a bear. Well, this is rural Alaska, and things like that do happen here. So, dad grabs a rifle (again, rural Alaska) hops in his truck, and heads on over. Looks around.  Doesn't see anything. Doesn't hear anything, but his ears don't work that well anymore. She comes barreling out of my brothers place, points to a not so distant tree. 'They're right there! The bear is killing them! Shoot it!' But there's nothing.

'I'm going to kill him.' Dad gets a late evening phone call from the brothers wife. She say's she has a gun pointed at my brothers head and will pull the trigger unless he leaves their place right now. Dad puts down the phone and looks at my brother, who is sitting right next to him.

Lots of other incidents, hallucinations about surveillance devices (she literally trashed the places interior twice looking for them) little green men stepping out of the appliances, that sort of thing. She eventually broke up with my brother and lost custody of the kids.  The hallucinations stopped a few weeks or months after she stopped taking the Ritalin.

This is anecdotal, and ritalin is not an anti-depressant. 

16 minutes ago, HoodedCrow said:

Kip Kinkel, Eric Harris, Klebald,  Virginia tech shooter, and probably more. Simon, I stopped working with kids because I couldn’t stand drugs for kids. Antidepressants as they are called, supposedly work on a Theorized connection with Serotonin.( not proven, but much overstated) But first you get your kid diagnosed ( a depressed emotional adolescent?…it’s pretty much standard) and then they probably will be prescribed drugs, even if their effects as reported by marketers are very close or no better than placebo. The side effects are way underreported. Even the ones that “ work”, have costs. One kid that we had took Ritalin, he was marginally calmer during the day, but would wake up at night and smear faeces.  It effects sleeping and eating. Neutering is not the solution.

My friends had a horrible time getting off of Effexor. It’s highly, rapidly addictive, but people are not told of the grim side effects, the potential for mania, the brain zaps and nausea. It is not very effective for depression, so now it has new uses like for night sweats.

There is no causal link--I shared research that showed it. It's like saying, that the kids who smeared faeces were all boys, so therefore boys are smearers of shit. It's like saying Marilyn Manson or video games caused the shootings. There is literally no link between these meds and violent behavior. I'm getting a lot of anecdotal and observational evidence, but when you made this determination about these kids, what kinds of factors or variables were you measuring? How were you measuring these factors, and which variables were you controlling for? 

You've seen kids do bad things, but to blame the medication is just unreasonable. For every observational behavioral issue you observed, we could probably provide you 100 to 1 observations in the opposite direction--in fact, the article I linked talks about this. A huge number of people worldwide are on these meds. If there was any causal link between violence and meds, then the violence would be much more widespread. Right now, those who take meds and react violently are so small in number it is statistically insignificant.  

This is important because too often people who take meds, people who suffer from mental illness, are lumped into the category of violent killers--and the evidence does not at all support this.

[Kalbear]

I'm gonna try and say this as calmly as I can, @Hooded Crow.

First, the effects of antidepressants and other medicines are not US Politics. Please take that topic somewhere, anywhere else..

Second: there are a lot of people on this forum and elsewhere who have VERY different experiences with antidepressants, and you are lecturing to us like you have some special insight. You do not. 

[ThinkerX]

Might be a glimmer of good news for those towards the Left. Doubly so if she pulls it off despite what is certain to be a massive legalized voter suppression operation:

Stacey Abrams' Chances of Winning Georgia 2022 Governor Race, According to Bookmakers (msn.com)

Quote

Democrat Stacey Abrams, who declared her candidacy to run in 2022 for Georgia governor on Wednesday, has been ranked as favorite to defeat Republican incumbent Brian Kemp.

 

[HoodedCrow]

We should be talking about school shootings and what may be a factor. 
Ritalin is supposed to be for ADHD, and it usually causes sleeping problems and eating problems. Yes the results of “ antidepressants” are mixed but not as good as is suggested, with weight gain, emotional blunting( if that is a goal), sleep problems, agitation, etc. The serotonin theory has not been proven at all, but is a nice fiction from drug companies. Some drugs like Effexor, which is an SNRI, has near placebo effects and sports a black box, and it’s upper qualities change. Many of them get maxed out sooner or later and stop numbing. Most of them cause major withdrawal, which has been relabeled “ discontinuation syndrome”. And that is how you can look it up.There is a lot of denial about the side effects…political by companies and the just pass the bar acceptance of medication. They just passed a drug for Alzheimer’s with no efficacy shown! One member quit over it.

Once a new med has passed any doc can prescribe it, for any reason pumped up by the pharmacy reps( not scientists) If it is used “ off label” the doctor can just have some belief, which is probably not going to be discussed with the patient.

All science starts out anecdotal. Then one forms an hypothesis based on an idea. Then it is tested, and hopefully not by specially interested labs( but they are notorious, like the cigarette promoting ones) I wish I could say my many observations were rare.

it is intensely political.

[A Horse Named Stranger]

9 hours ago, ThinkerX said:

Might be a glimmer of good news for those towards the Left. Doubly so if she pulls it off despite what is certain to be a massive legalized voter suppression operation:

Stacey Abrams' Chances of Winning Georgia 2022 Governor Race, According to Bookmakers (msn.com)

 

I maintain a I believe, when I see it approach towards that race. The two senate seats certainly point towards it being a winnable election, But with the anti-voting laws amped up, it won't be a walk in the park. The elections in Virginia and NJ should certainly serve as warning, that this is not a very favorable cycle. 

[Conflicting Thought]

16 minutes ago, HoodedCrow said:

We should be talking about school shootings and what may be a factor. 
Ritalin is supposed to be for ADHD, and it usually causes sleeping problems and eating problems. Yes the results of “ antidepressants” are mixed but not as good as is suggested, with weight gain, emotional blunting( if that is a goal), sleep problems, agitation, etc. The serotonin theory has not been proven at all, but is a nice fiction from drug companies. Some drugs like Effexor, which is an SNRI, has near placebo effects and sports a black box, and it’s upper qualities change. Many of them get maxed out sooner or later and stop numbing. Most of them cause major withdrawal, which has been relabeled “ discontinuation syndrome”. And that is how you can look it up.There is a lot of denial about the side effects…political by companies and the just pass the bar acceptance of medication. They just passed a drug for Alzheimer’s with no efficacy shown! One member quit over it.

Once a new med has passed any doc can prescribe it, for any reason pumped up by the pharmacy reps( not scientists) If it is used “ off label” the doctor can just have some belief, which is probably not going to be discussed with the patient.

All science starts out anecdotal. Then one forms an hypothesis based on an idea. Then it is tested, and hopefully not by specially interested labs( but they are notorious, like the cigarette promoting ones) I wish I could say my many observations were rare.

it is intensely political.

Ok but where are your sources, pls.with links so is not just your opinion.

I have adhd and depression i took ritalin for like 2 years it didnt really worked for me,but at no time i felt like i needed to kill somebody, i didnt go shoot up a school.

Now im on adderall,and no hallucinations,no homicidal tendencies,but a lot of fucking help to try and live a "normal" life.

 

[HoodedCrow]

Your story is anecdotal:) 

Yes, I know some drugs work for some people, and that is great. Notice that Ritalin did not work for you, but Adderall does and that’s fantastic! I couldn’t be happier for you. The most important thing is that it works and you are able to monitor yourself.
 

We also had kids slumping at desks on “Cylert”. 
 

Eric Harris was in the middle of changing antidepressants. Kip Kingel was on one. And if anyone has a hobby on school shooters, I don’t, so that would be an interesting angle.

Me, I just worked in health care, have a lot of friends, and moved a lot for DH’s work.

[sologdin]

parents are still responsible and can be sued.

state law will control parental liability.  most places have caps.

 

the viability line is the central holding of those cases

this is a bit of a distortion of roe.  viability is discussed, but it was not as significant as in later casey, which envisions a moving line.

 

it is intensely political.

quite correct. the great mark fisher:

Quote

Mental health, in fact, is a paradigm case of how capitalist realism operates. Capitalist realism insists on treating mental health as if it were a natural fact, like weather (but, then again, weather is no longer a natural fact so much as a political economic effect). In the 1960s and 1970s, radical theory and politics (Laing, Foucault, Deleuze and Guattari, etc.) coalesced around extreme mental conditions such as schizophrenia, arguing, for instance, that madness was not a natural, but a political, category. But what is needed now is a politicization of much more common disorders. Indeed, it is their very commonness which is the issue: in Britain, depression is now the condition that is most treated by the NHS. In his book The Selfish Capitalist, Oliver James has convincingly posited a correlation between rising rates of mental distress and the neoliberal mode of capitalism practiced in countries like Britain, the USA and Australia. In line with James's claims, I want to argue that it is necessary to reframe the growing problem of stress (and distress) in capitalist societies. Instead of treating it as incumbent on individuals to resolve their own psychological distress, instead, that is, of accepting the vast privatization of stress that has taken place over the last thirty years, we need to ask: how has it become acceptable that so many people, and especially so many young people, are ill? The 'mental health plague' in capitalist societies would suggest that, instead of being the only social system that works, capitalism is inherently dysfunctional, and that the cost of it appearing to work is very high. 

capitalist realism at 19. that said, a direct correlation of major depressive disorder and juvenile violence might need more rigorous documentation.

[Larry of the Lawn]

1 hour ago, HoodedCrow said:

Your story is anecdotal:) 

Yes, I know some drugs work for some people, and that is great. Notice that Ritalin did not work for you, but Adderall does and that’s fantastic! I couldn’t be happier for you. The most important thing is that it works and you are able to monitor yourself.
 

We also had kids slumping at desks on “Cylert”. 
 

Eric Harris was in the middle of changing antidepressants. Kip Kingel was on one. And if anyone has a hobby on school shooters, I don’t, so that would be an interesting angle.

Me, I just worked in health care, have a lot of friends, and moved a lot for DH’s work.

These drugs are present all over the world.  Do we see an uptick in violent behavior anywhere else?  Simon linked some studies, do you have anything besides a hunch and your anecdotal observations to support this idea?

[HoodedCrow]

I observe, I notice a pattern, I check, and I look for scientific corroboration. It is best if  the studies are replicable and taken at long term intervals. ( and they stop testing)But conflictingthoughts has one report of Ritalin not working, so that is one out of one on this thread. He says Adderall worked, but how come that was not discovered for two years? It should take weeks to show that, with questionaires.

There are books on Prozac filled with studies. However, I read a memoir on someone who successfully took it for OCD, until it completely “pooped out”. I know many people who talk about pooped out meds, SSRI,s, SNRI’s( don’t know how Effexor is still on the market with its extreme withdrawals) and atypicals. Actually, they keep finding fresh new off label symptoms for which to take Effexor.

Instead of going for a minimum effective dose, doctors are encouraged to max them out until the are “working” using a company protocol. Most patients are not monitored well, but they do get a package insert. Definitely read those.

Vaccines, on the other hand, have been studied well, normally. Pandemics are real! The stats on not dying are convincing to me. However, we know J&J marketed theirs as one and done. It isn’t. There are modern scientific miracles, like birth control, antibiotics, knee replacements, heart surgery and vaccines. Some meds work for some people, but pay attention. There are genetic variations causing different medication metabolism , and it may be just a blip of DNA. Also, some pharmaceutical companies have poor suppliers or lack quality assurance. 

 

 

 

[Conflicting Thought]

25 minutes ago, HoodedCrow said:

I observe, I notice a pattern, I check, and I look for scientific corroboration. It is best if  the studies are replicable and taken at long term intervals. ( and they stop testing)But conflictingthoughts has one report of Ritalin not working, so that is one out of one on this thread. He says Adderall worked, but how come that was not discovered for two years? It should take weeks to show that, with questionaires.

There are books on Prozac filled with studies. However, I read a memoir on someone who successfully took it for OCD, until it completely “pooped out”. I know many people who talk about pooped out meds, SSRI,s, SNRI’s( don’t know how Effexor is still on the market with its extreme withdrawals) and atypicals. Actually, they keep finding fresh new off label symptoms for which to take Effexor.

Instead of going for a minimum effective dose, doctors are encouraged to max them out until the are “working” using a company protocol. Most patients are not monitored well, but they do get a package insert. Definitely read those.

Vaccines, on the other hand, have been studied well, normally. Pandemics are real! The stats on not dying are convincing to me. However, we know J&J marketed theirs as one and done. It isn’t. There are modern scientific miracles, like birth control, antibiotics, knee replacements, heart surgery and vaccines. Some meds work for some people, but pay attention. There are genetic variations causing different medication metabolism , and it may be just a blip of DNA. Also, some pharmaceutical companies have poor suppliers or lack quality assurance. 

 

 

 

Where are the links with the scientific info to support your claims.

And Ritalin didnt work FOR ME,it does work for others.

Its like is the 90s all over again

[HoodedCrow]

No, I have an advanced degree in science and quite a lot of experience with clients/ patients. That is not bs at all. Most doctors, by the way, are not scientists. Most have taken one class on beginner statistics. I have run into quite a few that don’t know a lot about…autism, ADHD, cancer, insomnia, depression, anxiety, OCD, enzyme pathways, side effects, long term side effects, discontinuation side effects, etc. if a drug works for you, then, that’s great.
I got a couple of nasty surprises for medication for insomnia. ( one raised my heart rate by around twenty beats per minute, which I noticed) I gained so much weight, so rapidly that people thought that I was pregnant. As soon as I stopped the med,( with side effects like my skin peeling)my weight and heart rate turned to normal. The cardiac side effects and weight gain were well known but my doctor kept telling me to raise the dose. This drug is still on the market. 
The nice doctor who ordered up the chemotherapy minimized the effects and did not tell me that it would improve my survivability by 5% at most with many long term side effects.( it is still hard to eat and I’m trying to build some stamina) There is no monitoring at all and I’m doing my own rehab. Good luck possums:)

[Larry of the Lawn]

8 minutes ago, Conflicting Thought said:

Where are the links with the scientific info to support your claims.

And Ritalin didnt work FOR ME,it does work for others.

Its like is the 90s all over again

Yeah but how many schools did you shoot up?

[DireWolfSpirit]

3 hours ago, Conflicting Thought said:

Now im on adderall,and no hallucinations,no homicidal tendencies,but a lot of fucking help to try and live a "normal" life.

Just as adderall has helped you thankfully. And you have anecdotally shared with us it helping you. I can also share with you that it has caused suicidal tendencies in some users, including a first cousin of mine who in spite of having an nice house, family and successful business took his own life. His widow at his wake insisted to me that it was adderall to blame in her eyes.

Never having even heard of adderall before those events I searched online and discovered self help forums where people struggling with the side effects of that drug give testament to how it negatively affects them and family members. I'm not going to provide a link but if your interested enough the info is out there.

Back to the school shooting,

The parents are also being charged with homicide now.

This D.A. is not letting anything slide, justice will be sought in every corner.

Michigan shooter's parents charged

https://www.cnn.com/webview/us/live-news/oxford-school-shooting-michigan-12-03-21/h_0632e1efaed7ceccc8c42660da93990b

[Centrist Simon Steele]

3 hours ago, Conflicting Thought said:

Ok but where are your sources, pls.with links so is not just your opinion.

I have adhd and depression i took ritalin for like 2 years it didnt really worked for me,but at no time i felt like i needed to kill somebody, i didnt go shoot up a school.

Now im on adderall,and no hallucinations,no homicidal tendencies,but a lot of fucking help to try and live a "normal" life.

 

It's weird, I've been taking Concerta and anti-depressants--both well beyond a placebo effect--and I'm a pacifist. So, hm. Maybe this is how science works? We can start developing some kind of hypothesis that says, "We're pretty sure with all the people on these meds and a drop in violent crime rate over three decades that these aren't turning people into homicidal monsters, right?"

[Martell Spy]

There I started a thread to argue about this shootings and medications business:

Shootings: Medications and Video Games

[Centrist Simon Steele]

3 hours ago, sologdin said:

 

capitalist realism at 19. that said, a direct correlation of major depressive disorder and juvenile violence might need more rigorous documentation.

I know studies have been done, but I think the easiest thing to do for those without access to academic libraries is to ask: it is the meds they all have in common, or something else? Could it be the prescription of medications were attempts to help kids in serious need, but they weren't enough or soon enough?

I mean, what we're discussing here is, "I ate spaghetti, and my hip hurt the next morning. Then two weeks later, I ate spaghetti and my hip hurt in the morning!" 

Doctor: "You also had significant hip surgery in your twenties, you're in your forties now, you mentioned you haven't bought a new mattress since you were in your twenties, and you still like to go out and run 5ks in full battle rattle like you're still in the marines."

Me: You're just going to discount the spaghetti? 

[Centrist Simon Steele]

4 minutes ago, Martell Spy said:

There I started a thread to argue about this shootings and medications business:

Shootings: Medications and Video Games

I appreciate the gesture, but I think the whole conversation is offensive and provably wrong. Would we tolerate a thread on race science, or why women are physically unable to do what men can do so they should be paid less?

[Martell Spy]

2 minutes ago, Centrist Simon Steele said:

I appreciate the gesture, but I think the whole conversation is offensive and provably wrong. Would we tolerate a thread on race science, or why women are physically unable to do what men can do so they should be paid less?

I'm just trying to rescue the U.S. Politics thread man.

[Centrist Simon Steele]

Just now, Martell Spy said:

I'm just trying to rescue the U.S. Politics thread man.

I know (no worries), I threw my comment over there.