What Happened at Summerhall

[LynnS]

8 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

Viserion = Viserys. Coloured for his crown.

My pick is Viserys + Victarion + Dragonbinder = Viserion.

[AlaskanSandman]

On 12/1/2021 at 8:42 PM, chrisdaw said:

I don't seem to have ever created a topic for my own theory, so I'm doing it now.

There was at Summerhall attempts to wake dragons by multiple mostly harmless methods. There was however someone(s) who believed or suspected the sacrifice of Targaryen lives was a requirement to waking dragons. In pursuit of this idea they sabotaged an event at Summerhall for the purpose of sacrificing Targaryen lives to wake dragons, the result was the tragedy at Summerhall. The offender was/is correct as far as if Rhaegar had died and burned dragons would have been hatched, but Dunk saved Rhaegar.

The death of a child is a requirement to waking dragons, it happened in the series, Dany did it by accident. The text makes clear through symbolism (and theme) that the death of her unborn child Rhaego (not coincidentally named for Rhaegar) was key to the process. In the fever dream occurring during or directly after she lost Rhaego there are these passages, between the reoccurring line warning her of, and then prompting her to, wake the dragon.

Dany conceives Rhaego with Drogo, and instantly comes the great wings and the world becomes fire, obviously dragon symbolism.

She sees Rhaego's future, but it turns into fire. Fire out his mouth and fire in his chest, and he is lost. When she weeps for him her tears turn to steam. It is simple symbolism for a simple trade, Rhaego's life for fire, Rhaego for a dragon. Don't even weep for him because you were compensated in return for his life with the gift of fire. It goes to this line,

The answer to Marwyn's question in the case of Dany's dragons is that Rhaego feeds the fire, the child's soul. Thus the requirement of the sacrifice in waking dragons, they're what feed the dragon's fire. The premise is what the fiery heart of R'hllor symbolises and the inscription on Dragonbinder. It is a key component and someone around Summerhall knew it and tried to make it into reality, but who?

Bloodraven, being morally dubious and a (basically confirmed) sorcerer is a decent candidate. A better candidate though is Shiera Seastar. Shiera is a reputed sorcerer with a thirst for knowledge of the unknown and arcane. She'd bed Bloodraven but would not marry him, because, in GRRM's own unfiltered through a POV words, she enjoyed making him jealous. Men die around her like no other woman in the series, in duels for her favour and by suicide after falling out of her favour. The love two brothers had for her it is said caused the Blackfyre Rebellion and all the deaths that came with it. She is a curious, bold, mischievous, the type to test the boundaries of what she can do just for the sake of proving to herself she can, or even just the fun in it. She is this universes Loki, and seemingly perfect for this part.

The how of it could go a few ways. The person with the knowledge could have understood Egg would never agree to such a sacrifice and so resorted in secret to the sabotage. They could have pitched the sacrifice to Egg and been rebuffed and so resorted to the sabotage. Or they could have won Egg over, and Egg have agreed in the belief the sacrifice of a few would be a price worth paying for the ultimate good he would do realm wide with the unfettered power of being a dragon rider, but would want to keep the sacrifice secret so as not to appear the monster, and the execution of it all just got out of hand.

Whatever the case, the tragedy at Summerhall was a result of someone understanding that sacrifices were required to wake dragons, and attempting to make it happen. And had Dunk not saved Rhaegar, they would have succeeded. And that's why we know (correction, we don't know this, it is just strongly suggested Dunk saved someone(s) life from the fires) Dunk saved Rhaegar, why it's the ending/pinnacle of the (D&E and Summerhall) story and why the events of Summerhall are a spoiler for the rest of the series.

I think Aegon was going to sacrifice Rhaegar till Dunk saved Rhaegar and stopped Aegon, resulting in the Blaze that killed everyone. Unlike Jamie, who is blamed for killing a king despite saving a city. Dunk is hailed for saving people despite having killed his king. 

[AlaskanSandman]

9 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

I think Aegon was going to sacrifice Rhaegar till Dunk saved Rhaegar and stopped Aegon, resulting in the Blaze that killed everyone. Unlike Jamie, who is blamed for killing a king despite saving a city. Dunk is hailed for saving people despite having killed his king. 

Who finds out the truth about Jamie? Brienne. Dunk's descendant. Just saying, its very "History doesn't repeat but it sure rhymes"        

Edit-   Brienne is likewise blamed for killing her king, Renly. 

[John Suburbs]

18 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

Viserion = Viserys. Coloured for his crown.

Antogonistic brother who would be king, like . . . Viserion's eventual rider will be, Tyrion (also defined by the mother's love he never had). Viserys + Tyrion. Just as with Drogo = Drogon and a lot of things that came at the start of the series, it's fairly straight-forward because it wasn't envisioned we'd have decades of internet discussion between books to collectively puzzle things out.

Rhaego's part of the sacrificed (Valyrian blooded) child is more the mechanism that fuels it or allows it all to happen (hence why Euron needs a child specifically by Dany as he plans to become a dragon too).

Eh, I doubt it. Only deaths in the pyre should be relevant to the dragon's lives. Otherwise, you could exchange any past death for a life, Rhaegar, Aerys, Rhaella . . . And Dany specifically says the deaths that paid for the dragon's lives were her sun and stars, her unborn child and the maegi, MMD, not Viserys.

And personality-wise, abusive, hostile Viserys would not become the clingy, needy Viserion we see today. But infant Rhaego would.

So in my head canon, the dragon-rider relationship should be:

Drogon -- Jon. Drogon launches right into the battle, seeks out danger, which is what Jon will need (if his story arc plays out as expected).

Viserion -- Dany. Vis will put Dany's needs above all other concerns, protect her, defend her, get her out of danger, not launch her into it.

Rhaegal -- Tyrion. Rhae is untrustworthy, even suspicious of Dany, certainly not loyal, like Tyrion.

[Megorova]

2 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Only deaths in the pyre should be relevant to the dragon's lives.

Exactly!

And Rhaego's body or his bones were not in the pyre! Thus he wasn't one of the three sacrifices.

You said so yourself - "Only deaths in the pyre".

Though it should be - "Only a sacrifice that burned in the pyre", because Drogo was killed hours prior his dead body was placed onto the pyre, and the horse also was placed under the pyre, when it was already dead. So only MMD out of the three sacrifices actually died on the pyre, and the other two died before that.

2 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

And Dany specifically says the deaths that paid for the dragon's lives were her sun and stars, her unborn child and the maegi, MMD, not Viserys.

Dany is stupid, so we can ignore what she said.

She doesn't know that Rhaego is alive, so she thinks that Rhaego was one of the three sacrifices. She is as mistaken about this as the ASOIAF's readers, who missed the fact that the horse, that burned in the pyre, also counts as a sacrifice. Life is life. In the eyes of the Gods any life is equal, whether it's a life of a royal Princess or a life of a moth or an earthworm. Also, this specific ritual required just "the blood of a King" to be sacrificed, not necessary the King's life itself. Khal Drogo was Aegon the Unworthy's three times-great-grandson.

1. Aegon IV + Elaena Targaryen = 2. Viserys Plumm (pureblooded dragonseed) + a wife from Dorne (possibly a member of House Dayne and Dyanna Dayne's younger sister, a descendant of Rhaena Targaryen and Garmund Hightower, and thus also a partial dragonseed) = children, amongst them - 3. a daughter (50+ % of her DNA were Targaryen genes, so she was a bit more than 1/2 Targaryen) + Dothraki Khal = children, amongst them - 4. a father of Khal Bharbo (a bit more than 1/4 Targaryen) + wife = 5. Khal Bharbo (a bit more than 1/8 Targaryen) + wife = 6. Drogo (a bit more than 1/16 Targaryen) - Aegon IV's great-great-great-grandson.

Both Dany and Stannis are also Aegon IV's 3-times-great-grandchildren, though not thru Daeron II, but thru Mya Rivers. Because Daeron II was not Aegon's son. He was the Dragonknight's bastard. Otherwise GRRM wouldn't have raised this topic in two separate books - in AGOT, when maester Aemon revealed to Jon that he is a Targaryen, and in TWOIAF, when there was information that Aegon IV accused his wife in adultery.

1. Aegon IV + Melissa Blackwood = 2. Mya Rivers (1/2 Targaryen) + Blackwood-husband = 3. Betha Blackwood (1/4 Targaryen) + Aegon V = 4. Jaehaerys + Shaera (6/8 or 75% Targaryens); Rhaelle (6/8 Targaryen) + Ormund Baratheon = 5. Aerys + Rhaella (12/16 or 3/4 or 75% Targaryens); Steffon Baratheon (3/16 Targaryen) + Cassana = 6. Dany (pureblooded Targaryen); Robert, Stannis, Renly (1,5 / 32 or 0,04 % Targaryens).

Stannis' "King's blood", his dragonseed blood, despite being very deluted, a mere 0,04%, is still enough for Melisandre to create with it a demonic-shadow assassins using fire&blood-magic. So Khal Drogo's blood, who is a bit more than 1/16 Targaryen, or had 0,06% of dragonseed-DNA, was sufficient enough to hatch Dany's dragons. The other two sacrifices - the horse and MMD, were there for "the head count". In a sense that if you want to hatch three dragons, then you have to sacrifice a "King's" blood. And because only Khal Drogo was a carrier of a special blood, to hatch her dragons Dany had to pay with Drogo's life, and in additon to his blood also to provide two additional lives, to pay for what she wanted.

Though, based on what we know about the events at Summerhall - Aegon V gathered there 7 dragon eggs. So it's likely that the 7 owners of those eggs were also present there. Though they (nor Aegon) weren't intending to sacrifice there anyone's life. They weren't going to kill anyone. Instead each owner of those dragon eggs was going to use his/her own blood to wake his/her dragon, in a blood&fire-magic ritual.

And then the Faceless Men got in the way of the ritual, started a fire (probably using a wildfire), killed people, and so on.

We have already met the Ghost of High Heart, but she didn't revealed anything important, in connection to the events that have occurred at Summerhall. That's because this role - who will reveal to us the truth, GRRM withheld for another character. Probably we will find out about this in one of Arya's chapters in TWOW, from the Kindly Man, who is the current Sealord of Braavos and the leader of the Faceless Men. He is old and ailing, so it's likely that he is 60-70+ years old. Thus, at the time when Summerhall burned, this guy was already an active member of the FM's Guild. And thus it's likely that he was present at Summerhall, when there happened whatever there happened. So he will be our source, from which we will find out what really happened at Summerhall.

[chrisdaw]

5 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Eh, I doubt it. Only deaths in the pyre should be relevant to the dragon's lives. Otherwise, you could exchange any past death for a life, Rhaegar, Aerys, Rhaella . . . And Dany specifically says the deaths that paid for the dragon's lives were her sun and stars, her unborn child and the maegi, MMD, not Viserys.

His soul went to the egg and nothing will have come of it unless there was the Rhaego death/sacrifice. Rhaego didn't die in the pyre and his body wasn't in the pyre. Drogo didn't die in the pyre and his soul was gone before Dany killed him.

15 hours ago, LynnS said:

My pick is Viserys + Victarion + Dragonbinder = Viserion.

I doubt Victarion existed as a formed named character in either notes or GRRM's mind when Viserion was named, and think it likely the other way around, Victarion is named for Viserion. Vic might ride Viserion but he's a stopgap to help get Viserion west and to the time and place GRRM wants for the event of Tyrion mounting it.

[Texas Hold Em]

19 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Eh, I doubt it. Only deaths in the pyre should be relevant to the dragon's lives. Otherwise, you could exchange any past death for a life, Rhaegar, Aerys, Rhaella . . . And Dany specifically says the deaths that paid for the dragon's lives were her sun and stars, her unborn child and the maegi, MMD, not Viserys.

And personality-wise, abusive, hostile Viserys would not become the clingy, needy Viserion we see today. But infant Rhaego would.

So in my head canon, the dragon-rider relationship should be:

Drogon -- Jon. Drogon launches right into the battle, seeks out danger, which is what Jon will need (if his story arc plays out as expected).

Viserion -- Dany. Vis will put Dany's needs above all other concerns, protect her, defend her, get her out of danger, not launch her into it.

Rhaegal -- Tyrion. Rhae is untrustworthy, even suspicious of Dany, certainly not loyal, like Tyrion.

I would get sick if it were to happen as you wish it to.  Daenerys is the Mother of Dragons.  Jon has no connection to the dragons. If he is very fortunate, and I hope he isn't, he might get to sweep their poop and ride Rhaegal once in a while.  Khal Drogo's soul is Drogon.  Drogon is Daenerys Targaryen's dragon.  All three of them are her dragons. 

[Frey family reunion]

3 hours ago, Texas Hold Em said:

Jon has no connection to the dragons. If he is very fortunate, and I hope he isn't, he might get to sweep their poop

That cracked me up.  Well played.

[John Suburbs]

20 hours ago, Megorova said:

Exactly!

And Rhaego's body or his bones were not in the pyre! Thus he wasn't one of the three sacrifices.

You said so yourself - "Only deaths in the pyre".

Though it should be - "Only a sacrifice that burned in the pyre", because Drogo was killed hours prior his dead body was placed onto the pyre, and the horse also was placed under the pyre, when it was already dead. So only MMD out of the three sacrifices actually died on the pyre, and the other two died before that.

Dany is stupid, so we can ignore what she said.

She doesn't know that Rhaego is alive, so she thinks that Rhaego was one of the three sacrifices. She is as mistaken about this as the ASOIAF's readers, who missed the fact that the horse, that burned in the pyre, also counts as a sacrifice. Life is life. In the eyes of the Gods any life is equal, whether it's a life of a royal Princess or a life of a moth or an earthworm. Also, this specific ritual required just "the blood of a King" to be sacrificed, not necessary the King's life itself. Khal Drogo was Aegon the Unworthy's three times-great-grandson.

1. Aegon IV + Elaena Targaryen = 2. Viserys Plumm (pureblooded dragonseed) + a wife from Dorne (possibly a member of House Dayne and Dyanna Dayne's younger sister, a descendant of Rhaena Targaryen and Garmund Hightower, and thus also a partial dragonseed) = children, amongst them - 3. a daughter (50+ % of her DNA were Targaryen genes, so she was a bit more than 1/2 Targaryen) + Dothraki Khal = children, amongst them - 4. a father of Khal Bharbo (a bit more than 1/4 Targaryen) + wife = 5. Khal Bharbo (a bit more than 1/8 Targaryen) + wife = 6. Drogo (a bit more than 1/16 Targaryen) - Aegon IV's great-great-great-grandson.

Both Dany and Stannis are also Aegon IV's 3-times-great-grandchildren, though not thru Daeron II, but thru Mya Rivers. Because Daeron II was not Aegon's son. He was the Dragonknight's bastard. Otherwise GRRM wouldn't have raised this topic in two separate books - in AGOT, when maester Aemon revealed to Jon that he is a Targaryen, and in TWOIAF, when there was information that Aegon IV accused his wife in adultery.

1. Aegon IV + Melissa Blackwood = 2. Mya Rivers (1/2 Targaryen) + Blackwood-husband = 3. Betha Blackwood (1/4 Targaryen) + Aegon V = 4. Jaehaerys + Shaera (6/8 or 75% Targaryens); Rhaelle (6/8 Targaryen) + Ormund Baratheon = 5. Aerys + Rhaella (12/16 or 3/4 or 75% Targaryens); Steffon Baratheon (3/16 Targaryen) + Cassana = 6. Dany (pureblooded Targaryen); Robert, Stannis, Renly (1,5 / 32 or 0,04 % Targaryens).

Stannis' "King's blood", his dragonseed blood, despite being very deluted, a mere 0,04%, is still enough for Melisandre to create with it a demonic-shadow assassins using fire&blood-magic. So Khal Drogo's blood, who is a bit more than 1/16 Targaryen, or had 0,06% of dragonseed-DNA, was sufficient enough to hatch Dany's dragons. The other two sacrifices - the horse and MMD, were there for "the head count". In a sense that if you want to hatch three dragons, then you have to sacrifice a "King's" blood. And because only Khal Drogo was a carrier of a special blood, to hatch her dragons Dany had to pay with Drogo's life, and in additon to his blood also to provide two additional lives, to pay for what she wanted.

Though, based on what we know about the events at Summerhall - Aegon V gathered there 7 dragon eggs. So it's likely that the 7 owners of those eggs were also present there. Though they (nor Aegon) weren't intending to sacrifice there anyone's life. They weren't going to kill anyone. Instead each owner of those dragon eggs was going to use his/her own blood to wake his/her dragon, in a blood&fire-magic ritual.

And then the Faceless Men got in the way of the ritual, started a fire (probably using a wildfire), killed people, and so on.

We have already met the Ghost of High Heart, but she didn't revealed anything important, in connection to the events that have occurred at Summerhall. That's because this role - who will reveal to us the truth, GRRM withheld for another character. Probably we will find out about this in one of Arya's chapters in TWOW, from the Kindly Man, who is the current Sealord of Braavos and the leader of the Faceless Men. He is old and ailing, so it's likely that he is 60-70+ years old. Thus, at the time when Summerhall burned, this guy was already an active member of the FM's Guild. And thus it's likely that he was present at Summerhall, when there happened whatever there happened. So he will be our source, from which we will find out what really happened at Summerhall.

Ya sure?

Quote

Dany is stupid, so we can ignore what she said.

Where do you get that idea? And no, long-winded, highly subjective theories with absolutely no proof do not count.

 

[John Suburbs]

19 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

His soul went to the egg and nothing will have come of it unless there was the Rhaego death/sacrifice. Rhaego didn't die in the pyre and his body wasn't in the pyre. Drogo didn't die in the pyre and his soul was gone before Dany killed him.

Nope. Dothraki are not dead and their souls do not leave their bodies until they are burned. Drogo and Rhaego might not have been technically alive in the pyre, but their lives were still viable.

I don't think there is any question that Drogo's life force, or whatever you want to call it, passed into Drogon. So if his remains could wake a dragon, so could Rhaego's.

[John Suburbs]

4 hours ago, Texas Hold Em said:

I would get sick if it were to happen as you wish it to.  Daenerys is the Mother of Dragons.  Jon has no connection to the dragons. If he is very fortunate, and I hope he isn't, he might get to sweep their poop and ride Rhaegal once in a while.  Khal Drogo's soul is Drogon.  Drogon is Daenerys Targaryen's dragon.  All three of them are her dragons. 

Nettles had no connection to a dragon that anyone is aware of. Neither did Ulf the White and Hugh Hammer. At best they might have been a dragon-seeds, but the same might be true for Jon.

I don't see where people get the idea that Drogon is now "Dany's dragon" just because she rode him out of the pit. She is the mother of all three dragons, so it stands to reason that she could ride any of them. My suggestion for Viserion isn't based on the idea that she shares any greater or less of a connection with him, but that it would be most practical. He will protect and defend her more loyally than the other two. We can see that by the way he acts toward her, which is suspect is due to his life coming from Rhaego.

 

[Megorova]

2 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Ya sure?

Yes. We'll see later whether my assumptions were correct or wrong.

2 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Quote

Dany is stupid, so we can ignore what she said.

Where do you get that idea? And no, long-winded, highly subjective theories with absolutely no proof do not count.

ADWD, Dany I -

Quote

"Cleon the Great sends these slippers as a token of his love for Daenerys Stormborn, the Mother of Dragons."

Irri slid the slippers onto Dany's feet. They were gilded leather, decorated with green freshwater pearls. Does the butcher king believe a pair of pretty slippers will win my hand? "King Cleon is most generous. You may thank him for his lovely gift." Lovely, but made for a child. Dany had small feet, yet the pointed slippers mashed her toes together.

...

“Magnificence,” said Reznak, consulting his list, “the noble Grazdan zo Galare would address you. Will you hear him?”

“It would be my pleasure,” said Dany, admiring the glimmer of the gold and the sheen of the green pearls on Cleon’s slippers while doing her best to ignore the pinching in her toes.

...

Reznak would have summoned another tokar next, but Dany insisted that he call upon a freedman. Thereafter she alternated between the former masters and the former slaves. Many and more of the matters brought before her involved redress.

...

A rich woman came

...

A former slave came

...

A boy came

...

By midday

...

In the afternoon

...

The slippers the Butcher King had sent her had grown too uncomfortable. Dany kicked them off and sat with one foot tucked beneath her and the other swinging back and forth. It was not a very regal pose, but she was tired of being regal.

She was wearing those too small for he slippers for HOURS, and bearing with pain and discomfort that they caused her. That shows that she's DUMB.

[Jaenara Belarys]

34 minutes ago, Megorova said:

She was wearing those too small for he slippers for HOURS, and bearing with pain and discomfort that they caused her. That shows that she's DUMB.

How do you propose that she stop the court, therefore halting everything completely, and also sort of rejecting Cleon's "gift" gracefully? Besides, wearing uncomfortable slippers for hours doesn't show that you're dumb. Plus, by your logic, every woman who has ever had to wear uncomfortable slippers for hours is an idiot. 

[Megorova]

27 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

every woman who has ever had to wear uncomfortable slippers for hours is an idiot. 

If it's a grown up woman, that we're talking about, and she still doesn't have any common sense, despite her sizable life experience (years of life), then - yes, she's an idiot.

Smart females (girls, teens) over time, while gaining various life experiences, should come to these simple conclusions (because they are obvious) - don't buy uncomfortable footwear, because the money spent on it, are the money waisted; don't wear totally new shoes to any extended event, or to someplace where you will need to walk a lot, stand a lot, or where you won't be able to change into a different footwear, if this one will turn out to be too uncomfortable, etc. If a female didn't got to these obvious realisations, while she was still a girl, a teen, or a young adult, and she's already a mature woman (let's say 25+ years old), then - yes, in my opinion, she is utterly dumb. Especially if she is willing to suffer wearing uncomfortable shoes, just because they are pretty, or because she likes them a lot. Because wearing uncomfortable footwear will eventually ruin your feet, and your spine, and your posture. Those who don't know, despite being past their teen years, that wearing uncomfortable shoes negatively affects a person's health (especially this is true for females, because their feet and spine will be taking tremendous burden during their pregnancy), are ignorant simpletons.

So those women, who are not smart enough not to end up in a situation, in which they are compelled to for hours to wear uncomfortable shoes, are indeed idiots.

27 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

How do you propose that she stop the court, therefore halting everything completely, and also sort of rejecting Cleon's "gift" gracefully?

There was no need to stop the court. Also, people came and then went away. The guy who presented Dany with those slippers, was the first supplicant. He came, said his part, gave the slippers, and left. And she kept wearing those slippers even after he left. She could have taken them off between the supplicants - when the previous one leaves, it takes time for the servants to call in the next one, in that pause between visitors she could have taken those slippers off, and could have worn whatever shoes she was wearing before she wore those. Instead for hours she was unnecessary bearing with pain and discomfort, only to later kick them off her feet in the presence of witnesses, with a "f*ck it all"-attitude.

35 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

Besides, wearing uncomfortable slippers for hours doesn't show that you're dumb.

No? Then what does it show? - That you're a masochist?

Dany is a Queen, so if she wanted to, she could have held court while being totally naked, and nobody would have said to her anything about it.

She eventually took the shoes off, and slouched in her seat, because she got tired being regal, and she took the shoes off because her feet hurt too much. She was bearing with pain for hours, not because she didn't wanted to take them off in a presence of her courtiers and supplicants, but because the shoes were pretty. She willingly suffered for hours, while wearing those too small shoes, and was bearing with pain, merely because she liked the look of those shoes. Doesn't that make her stupid?

GRRM can show a level of a character's intelligence, thru simple scenes/events. Like this one with Dany's slippers, or this one (about Sansa):

Quote

He’s no boy, though, he’s a man grown, a knight of the Kingsguard. She thought he looked even finer in white than in the greens and golds of House Tyrell.

...

Wed to Ser Loras, oh… Sansa’s breath caught in her throat. She remembered Ser Loras in his sparkling sapphire armor, tossing her a rose. Ser Loras in white silk, so pure, innocent, beautiful. The dimples at the corner of his mouth when he smiled. The sweetness of his laugh, the warmth of his hand. She could only imagine what it would be like to pull up his tunic and caress the smooth skin underneath, to stand on her toes and kiss him, to run her fingers through those thick brown curls and drown in his deep brown eyes. A flush crept up her neck.

“OH, I’M A MAID, AND I’M PURE AND FAIR! I’LL NEVER DANCE WITH A HAIRY BEAR! A BEAR! A BEAR! I’LL NEVER DANCE WITH A HAIRY BEAR!”

“Would you like that, Sansa?” asked Margaery. “I’ve never had a sister, only brothers. Oh, please say yes, please say that you will consent to marry my brother.”

The words came tumbling out of her. “Yes. I will. I would like that more than anything. To wed Ser Loras, to love him…”

“Loras?” Lady Olenna sounded annoyed. “Don’t be foolish, child. Kingsguard never wed. Didn’t they teach you anything in Winterfell? - ASOS, Sansa I.

Sansa was aware that Loras is a Kingsguard. Despite that, she thought that Olenna was talking about him, when she said that Sansa should marry with her grandson. She may not have known that Olenna has another grandson, besides Loras, which doesn't in any way influence the fact that Loras is a Kingsguards, and thus can't marry.

Both Dany and Sansa are very pretty and very dimwitted. And their age has nothing to do with their low level of intelligence. They won't become smarter when they will become older. It's a misconception that people become more intelligent over time. They obviously learn new things and gain new experiences, but their overall intellectual level doesn't change much, from the time when they were children, to the time when they became adults, and then old. Arya is smarter than Sansa, despite being a younger sister, and she always will be smarter than Sansa. Same with Dany - she isn't bright, and she will always be not bright. Thus back to what I said before - just because Dany thinks that Rhaego, Drogo and MDD were the three sacrifices, with which she paid for the life of her dragons, doesn't mean that it is so. Because Dany is stupid, and she does, says and thinks a lot of stupid things.

Which gets us back to this thread's topic - concidering that there is no evidence of Rhaego being dead, and being one of the three sacrifices, there are no basis to think that at Summerhall someone was intending to sacrifice newborn Rhaegar, to hatch dragons. That's absurd. Amongst other things - because what would have been the point for Jaehaerys and Shaera marrying their children to each other, and Egg agreeing to it, only to kill their child later, despite that child supposedly being prophesied by the Ghost of High Heart to be a Promised Prince, or something amongst those lines?

[chrisdaw]

4 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Nope. Dothraki are not dead and their souls do not leave their bodies until they are burned. Drogo and Rhaego might not have been technically alive in the pyre, but their lives were still viable.

I don't think there is any question that Drogo's life force, or whatever you want to call it, passed into Drogon. So if his remains could wake a dragon, so could Rhaego's.

Dany woke from her fever dream after the tent incident without Rhaego in her womb. The funeral pyre came after and Rhaego's body is not ever said to be or ever implied to be in the funeral pyre. Rhaego was not in the funeral pyre.

[AlaskanSandman]

8 minutes ago, Megorova said:

If it's a grown up woman, that we're talking about, and she still doesn't have any common sense, despite her sizable life experience (years of life), then - yes, she's an idiot.

Smart females (girls, teens) over time, while gaining various life experiences, should come to these simple conclusions (because they are obvious) - don't buy uncomfortable footwear, because the money spent on it, are the money waisted; don't wear totally new shoes to any extended event, or to someplace where you will need to walk a lot, stand a lot, or where you won't be able to change into a different footwear, if this one will turn out to be too uncomfortable, etc. If a female didn't got to these obvious realisations, while she was still a girl, a teen, or a young adult, and she's already a mature woman (let's say 25+ years old), then - yes, in my opinion, she is utterly dumb. Especially if she is willing to suffer wearing uncomfortable shoes, just because they are pretty, or because she likes them a lot. Because wearing uncomfortable footwear will eventually ruin your feet, and your spine, and your posture. Those who don't know, despite being past their teen years, that wearing uncomfortable shoes negatively affects a person's health (especially this is true for females, because their feet and spine will be taking tremendous burden during their pregnancy), are ignorant simpletons.

So those women, who are not smart enough not to end up in a situation, in which they are compelled to for hours to wear uncomfortable shoes, are indeed idiots.

There was no need to stop the court. Also, people came and then went away. The guy who presented Dany with those slippers, was the first supplicant. He came, said his part, gave the slippers, and left. And she kept wearing those slippers even after he left. She could have taken them off between the supplicants - when the previous one leaves, it takes time for the servants to call in the next one, in that pause between visitors she could have taken those slippers off, and could have worn whatever shoes she was wearing before she wore those. Instead for hours she was unnecessary bearing with pain and discomfort, only to later kick them off her feet in the presence of witnesses, with a "f*ck it all"-attitude.

No? Then what does it show? - That you're a masochist?

Dany is a Queen, so if she wanted to, she could have held court while being totally naked, and nobody would have said to her anything about it.

She eventually took the shoes off, and slouched in her seat, because she got tired being regal, and she took the shoes off because her feet hurt too much. She was bearing with pain for hours, not because she didn't wanted to take them off in a presence of her courtiers and supplicants, but because the shoes were pretty. She willingly suffered for hours, while wearing those too small shoes, and was bearing with pain, merely because she liked the look of those shoes. Doesn't that make her stupid?

GRRM can show a level of a character's intelligence, thru simple scenes/events. Like this one with Dany's slippers, or this one (about Sansa):

Sansa was aware that Loras is a Kingsguard. Despite that, she thought that Olenna was talking about him, when she said that Sansa should marry with her grandson. She may not have known that Olenna has another grandson, besides Loras, which doesn't in any way influence the fact that Loras is a Kingsguards, and thus can't marry.

Both Dany and Sansa are very pretty and very dimwitted. And their age has nothing to do with their low level of intelligence. They won't become smarter when they will become older. It's a misconception that people become more intelligent over time. They obviously learn new things and gain new experiences, but their overall intellectual level doesn't change much, from the time when they were children, to the time when they became adults, and then old. Arya is smarter than Sansa, despite being a younger sister, and she always will be smarter than Sansa. Same with Dany - she isn't bright, and she will always be not bright. Thus back to what I said before - just because Dany thinks that Rhaego, Drogo and MDD were the three sacrifices, with which she paid for the life of her dragons, doesn't mean that it is so. Because Dany is stupid, and she does, says and thinks a lot of stupid things.

Which gets us back to this thread's topic - concidering that there is no evidence of Rhaego being dead, and being one of the three sacrifices, there are no basis to think that at Summerhall someone was intending to sacrifice newborn Rhaegar, to hatch dragons. That's absurd. Amongst other things - because what would have been the point for Jaehaerys and Shaera marrying their children to each other, and Egg agreeing to it, only to kill their child later, despite that child supposedly being prophesied by the Ghost of High Heart to be a Promised Prince, or something amongst those lines?

None? Not one example you can think of? Not one instance of "Kings blood" being used? Not even touching the show and Shereen. Melisandre hasn't used anyone for the "Kings Blood"? You don't think Melisandre would give over a baby to the flames for her Stannis Azor. 

Aemon thought Rhaegar was the one, I don't recall Aegon thinking Rhaegar was. For all we know, Aegon thought he himself was the promised prince. Making Rhaegar's kingsblood a needed thing. Aemon could've only started thinking Rhaegar after Rhaegar survived Summerhall, only to switch when Rhaegar suspected his own son.

 

A Dance with Dragons - Daenerys IV

Ser Barristan went on. "I saw your father and your mother wed as well. Forgive me, but there was no fondness there, and the realm paid dearly for that, my queen."

"Why did they wed if they did not love each other?"

"Your grandsire commanded it. A woods witch had told him that the prince was promised would be born of their line."

 

Aegon V did not command it, his son Jaehaerys did. There is no word about Aegon V believing it was Rhaegar

 

The World of Ice and Fire - The Targaryen Kings: Aegon V

Even that could not restore the peace, nor win back the friendship of Storm's End, however. The father of the spurned girl, Lord Lyonel Baratheon of Storm's End—known as the Laughing Storm and famed for his prowess in battle—was not a man easily appeased when his pride was wounded. A short, bloody rebellion ensued, ending only when Ser Duncan of the Kingsguard defeated Lord Lyonel in single combat, and King Aegon gave his solemn word that his youngest daughter, Rhaelle, would wed Lord Lyonel's heir. To seal the bargain, Princess Rhaelle was sent to Storm's End to serve as Lord Lyonel's cupbearer and companion to his lady wife. Jenny of Oldstones—Lady Jenny, as she was called by courtesy—was eventually accepted at court, and throughout the Seven Kingdoms the smallfolk held her especially dear. She and her prince, forever after known as the Prince of Dragonflies, were a favorite subject of singers for many years.

Jenny of Oldstones was accompanied to court by a dwarfish, albino woman who was reputed to be a woods witch in the riverlands. Lady Jenny herself claimed, in her ignorance, that she was a child of the forest.

 

 

There is also the issue of Jenny and the Prince of Draonflies kids. Summerhall was quite sometime after they wed. They would likely have kids. It is possible that Rhaegar was not the child to be sacrificed, but Jenny and Duncan's. I think it was Rhaegar, but i do wonder about Jenny and Duncan having children.

 

However, in 239 AC, while traveling in the riverlands, Duncan encountered and fell in love with and married a "strange, lovely, and mysterious" peasant woman known as Jenny of Oldstones.^[5]

 

In 259 AC, Prince Duncan died in the Tragedy at Summerhall along with his father, King Aegon V Targaryen, his namesake Ser Duncan the Tall, and several other members of the royal court.^[10][3][11]

 

239-259.        20 years they were married with no children?

[Megorova]

4 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

239-259.        20 years they were married with no children?

That's because when they met, Jenny was only 9 years old. That's my theory, that Jenny actually was a daughter of Rohanne Webber-Lannister, fathered by Duncan the Tall. Rohanne, who was a witch, used love potion on Dunk, to have his child. Then, when she became pregnant, she had to dissapear, because the birth of that child made her to rapidly age, and she turned into the Ghost of High Heart. So Jenny was only 29, at the time when Summerhall burned, and yes, at that age she gave birth for the first time to a child that has lived, same as it was with Rohanna - her first child that had survived to adulthood, was born by her when she was 29 years old. So in 259, 29-years old Jenny, gave birth to her and Duncan the Small's daughter - Melisandre.

Melisandre's birth, on the night when the castle burned - that's one of the most important things that have happened then.

[AlaskanSandman]

5 minutes ago, Megorova said:

That's because when they met, Jenny was only 9 years old. That's my theory, that Jenny actually was a daughter of Rohanne Webber-Lannister, fathered by Duncan the Tall. Rohanne, who was a witch, used love potion on Dunk, to have his child. Then, when she became pregnant, she had to dissapear, because the birth of that child made her to rapidly age, and she turned into the Ghost of High Heart. So Jenny was only 29, at the time when Summerhall burned, and yes, at that age she gave birth for the first time to a child that has lived, same as it was with Rohanna - her first child that had survived to adulthood, was born by her when she was 29 years old. So in 259, 29-years old Jenny, gave birth to her and Duncan the Small's daughter - Melisandre.

Melisandre's birth, on the night when the castle burned - that's one of the most important things that have happened then.

Interesting. Im not sure about the aging fast after having kids though. Is their pretext for this?

Ive always been partial to the idea that Melisandre is the Bleeding Star. Bloodraven (Bleeding) Shiera Sea(star). That Mel is quite old and wearing a glamour to hide her age. 

 

 

[Megorova]

10 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Interesting. Im not sure about the aging fast after having kids though. Is their pretext for this?

The birth of Mel's shadow-demons took life-force out of Stannis. And they were merely shadows, born to kill a specific person and then to ceaze existing. And Stannis was very ill afterwards, drained. So for the birth of a magical being that also will be a real human, what is required is a tremendous amount of life-force. For example - Shiera's birth killed both of her parents, Mel's birth took years of life out of her mother.

Though there is no textual evidences, those are just my assumptions. Not about Stannis, just about Shiera and Mel.

[AlaskanSandman]

3 hours ago, Megorova said:

The birth of Mel's shadow-demons took life-force out of Stannis. And they were merely shadows, born to kill a specific person and then to ceaze existing. And Stannis was very ill afterwards, drained. So for the birth of a magical being that also will be a real human, what is required is a tremendous amount of life-force. For example - Shiera's birth killed both of her parents, Mel's birth took years of life out of her mother.

Though there is no textual evidences, those are just my assumptions. Not about Stannis, just about Shiera and Mel.

Definitely something ill have to consider and watch for. I really hope Martin is able to wrap up his story the way he wants in his time. The mystery of Mel is one im certainly curious about. Who ever her parents are. Hopefully we'll get some more pov chapters with her.