What Happened at Summerhall

[Frey family reunion]

2 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Eh, we know the dragons were awake in the eggs long before the tent ceremony. Dany was getting vivid dreams way back in the Great Grass Sea, and she felt heat from them when no one else could. So I don't see how we can trace the origin of the dragons to this ceremony.

Plus, the math doesn't add up. Only death can pay for life. So in the tent we had two deaths, the horse and Rhaego. And these paid for Drogo and all three dragons?

No, my point is that you can't neatly seperate the two ceremonies.  In other words, I'm not saying that the blood magic ritual resulted in the birth of the dragons, I'm saying that the blood magic ritual in connection with the funeral pyre birthed the dragons.  That the time that the spirt/soul of Rhaego and Drago entering the eggs would have been at the time of the blood magic ritual.  Dany birthed something "long dead", while Drogo came out of that tent, not really Drogo anymore.  

[John Suburbs]

18 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Well Viserys going into one of the Eggs is irrelevant of Mirri. Varymyr six skins shows us that. Visery's could've fled on his own into the eggs. That doesn't mean it hatch still though. Varymyr isn't hatching eggs, he's finding his second life

Eh, even that's a stretch. Second lives are lived in an animal that you've warged. So we can see evidence of this in both Robb and Jon, who both uttered their wolves' names as they died. Viserys was not warging a dragon egg, as far as we can tell. But we can see that Dany was getting dragon dreams well before Vis died. So whatever life force that was present in the eggs did not require Viserys' death to come into being.

And again, I just can't believe that any death at any time in the past is enough to pay for a life. Otherwise, people would be getting all kinds of magical prizes from the lives of relative who passed years, decades or even centuries ago.

So in the end, we have three lives that were available for the pier, two of whom we know were there. We have two of the three dragons emerging with personalities that closely match the two we know were in the pyre, and the third closely matches the personality of the only other death at that time and whose remains -- just like Drogo's -- were available to be placed in the pyre as well.

I don't see any reason to reach back to an earlier death to pay for Viserion. We have a death right here -- one that was a far more potent sacrifice for Dany than the brother who beat her and tormented her all those years.

[John Suburbs]

18 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

No, my point is that you can't neatly seperate the two ceremonies.  In other words, I'm not saying that the blood magic ritual resulted in the birth of the dragons, I'm saying that the blood magic ritual in connection with the funeral pyre birthed the dragons.  That the time that the spirt/soul of Rhaego and Drago entering the eggs would have been at the time of the blood magic ritual.  Dany birthed something "long dead", while Drogo came out of that tent, not really Drogo anymore.  

But if that was the case, then the eggs should have been completely inert until the blood ceremony. But we know they weren't: Dany has vivid dragon dreams after she takes possession of the eggs and long before the blood ceremony, and she can feel heat from them when others can't.

And if both Rhaego's and Drogo's lives had already entered the eggs, then why do they each have uniquely different personalities, with one of them strongly resembling Drogo, especially when Drogo didn't actually die in the blood ceremony? How are we getting three dragons out of what is essentially only one death?

My solution is not nearly so convoluted. Three deaths paying for three lives, and the three lives have personalities that strongly resemble the three deaths. 

[Springwatch]

57 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

My solution is not nearly so convoluted. Three deaths paying for three lives, and the three lives have personalities that strongly resemble the three deaths. 

And you need to add some complexity to your solution. Simply bundling everything into the one word 'life' doesn't cover everything we see. Drogo gained health, lost spirit. Rhaego lost life, but more specifically gained years, which is highly relevant to the eggs, which were too old to hatch. Rhaego's sacrifice affected all three eggs, it seems. The transfer of spirit and personality can be an entirely separate matter. Why don't you like Rhaego-Rhaegal? Most people do - the greedy dragon and the Stallion that Mounts the World. Sounds fine to me.

[Moiraine Sedai]

21 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Im not sure what you're saying here, but yea, Dany is tied to the 3 mythology. I tend to think she's Nissa Nissa though, not Azor Ahai. Nissa rhymes with Meesa. Corruption of the legend perhaps?

Dany is Azor Ahai. Drogo was Nissa Nissa. 

[chrisdaw]

3 hours ago, Springwatch said:

And you need to add some complexity to your solution. Simply bundling everything into the one word 'life' doesn't cover everything we see. Drogo gained health, lost spirit. Rhaego lost life, but more specifically gained years, which is highly relevant to the eggs, which were too old to hatch. Rhaego's sacrifice affected all three eggs, it seems. The transfer of spirit and personality can be an entirely separate matter. Why don't you like Rhaego-Rhaegal? Most people do - the greedy dragon and the Stallion that Mounts the World. Sounds fine to me.

Rhaego is in Drogon with Drogo, and at the end of the series when Dany dies and joins them that's the three heads.

Rhaegal is MMD is to be ridden by Faegon, the outsider and betrayer.

[Jaenara Belarys]

3 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Dany is Azor Ahai. Drogo was Nissa Nissa. 

I agree about Dany being AA, but how's Drogo Nissa Nissa?

[AlaskanSandman]

11 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Dany is Azor Ahai. Drogo was Nissa Nissa. 

I can totally see why you see it that way. I just don't.

Nissa Nissa is the mother Meesa who birthed dragons. 
 

Azor, is the guy who stuck his fire sword in Nissa Nissa. His "Sword" is his "Pillar and Stones" if you catch my meaning. Its also a literal sword he kills he with. She is the mother who does the birthing though.

Drogo as Nissa Nissa in my mind doesn't work as he births nothing and isn't stabbed to death.

[AlaskanSandman]

14 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Eh, even that's a stretch. Second lives are lived in an animal that you've warged. So we can see evidence of this in both Robb and Jon, who both uttered their wolves' names as they died. Viserys was not warging a dragon egg, as far as we can tell. But we can see that Dany was getting dragon dreams well before Vis died. So whatever life force that was present in the eggs did not require Viserys' death to come into being.

And again, I just can't believe that any death at any time in the past is enough to pay for a life. Otherwise, people would be getting all kinds of magical prizes from the lives of relative who passed years, decades or even centuries ago.

So in the end, we have three lives that were available for the pier, two of whom we know were there. We have two of the three dragons emerging with personalities that closely match the two we know were in the pyre, and the third closely matches the personality of the only other death at that time and whose remains -- just like Drogo's -- were available to be placed in the pyre as well.

I don't see any reason to reach back to an earlier death to pay for Viserion. We have a death right here -- one that was a far more potent sacrifice for Dany than the brother who beat her and tormented her all those years.

Well, to be fair, how ever it happened is probably a stretch. Im not sure any one "knows" how to hatch dragons and I tend to think it was a couple things working together that were unrelated.  Like Mirri, second life's, ect. Drogo and the Dothraki exhibit the same unspoken bond with their horses, that the Targaryen's have with their Dragons. Its not the same as Warging, but close. 

[John Suburbs]

22 hours ago, Springwatch said:

And you need to add some complexity to your solution. Simply bundling everything into the one word 'life' doesn't cover everything we see. Drogo gained health, lost spirit. Rhaego lost life, but more specifically gained years, which is highly relevant to the eggs, which were too old to hatch. Rhaego's sacrifice affected all three eggs, it seems. The transfer of spirit and personality can be an entirely separate matter. Why don't you like Rhaego-Rhaegal? Most people do - the greedy dragon and the Stallion that Mounts the World. Sounds fine to me.

No, the simplest explanation is usually the correct one.

Three deaths = three lives. And the deaths have to be commensurate in value to the lives. If it were any other way, then no one would have to sacrifice to the HoBaW. Just any old death at any time in the near or distant past pays for a life today. And you need to kill a king, or a princess, no problem. Your mother and father died tragically 20 years ago, that should do it. Jaquen's requirement for three deaths to pay for the three lives saved from the fire would not make any sense, to anyone. Just count three of the lives that died in the fight. Mel doesn't need to sacrifice anyone to work her magic or raise dragons from stone. Somebody somewhere died at some time. It's all just whatever.

And if Rhaego/Drogo paid for all three dragon's lives, then they would all be relatively the same, physically and personality wise. But we can clearly see the largest, fiercest one is Drogo. And to me it is equally clear that the hostile, suspicious one is MMD and the clingy needy one is Rhaego. Again, three deaths, three lives. not two deaths for partial life for three dragons, then more deaths by the same two dead people and one live one for the rest of the three lives . . .

[John Suburbs]

9 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Well, to be fair, how ever it happened is probably a stretch. Im not sure any one "knows" how to hatch dragons and I tend to think it was a couple things working together that were unrelated.  Like Mirri, second life's, ect. Drogo and the Dothraki exhibit the same unspoken bond with their horses, that the Targaryen's have with their Dragons. Its not the same as Warging, but close. 

Well, that's the point. We don't have to stretch the basic facts very far to get the gist of what happened. Three deaths, three lives. Two of those lives closely resemble the two deaths, personality-wise. The third resembles the only other possible life that could have made a suitable sacrifice on the pyre.

The simplest answer is usually the correct one.

And sorry, but I don't see Dothraki riding horses as anything even close to warging. Literally everybody else in the world rides horses, and the more you ride a particular horse, the more it may anticipate your commands. If anyone was warging the Dothraki horses, it was the Ifequevron, which is why the Dothraki left them alone.

 

[Frey family reunion]

28 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

The simplest answer is usually the correct one.

In real life perhaps, but I don't think that maxim holds true in overly convoluted fantasy novels. 

I don't think it's a coincidence that GRRM had our characters go through a blood magic ceremony right before the funeral pyre.  A ceremony specifically designed to transfer the spirt from one being to another.  Nor do I think it's a coincidence that this blood magic ceremony happened in the same tent that Dany's dragon eggs were in.  Nor do I think it a coincidence that Dany and her unborn son were brought into the tent in violation of MMD's specific orders to keep her out of said tent.

The fact that we have eggs present for a blood magic ritual, and then placed into a funeral fire, parallels the Targaryen words, blood and fire.  Both are necessary components to bring dragons into the world.

[LynnS]

7 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

The fact that we have eggs present for a blood magic ritual, and then placed into a funeral fire, parallels the Targaryen words, blood and fire.  Both are necessary components to bring dragons into the world.

What is the business of cradle eggs?  What is that supposed to accomplish?  Does this have something to do with soul bonding between infant and egg?   Can dragon eggs be repositories for dead Targaryens who bond with the eggs/dragons?  Does soul transfer cause a gender change, since we are told that can happen?

 

[Frey family reunion]

Just now, LynnS said:

What is the business of cradle eggs?  What is that supposed to accomplish?  Does this have something to do with soul bonding between infant and egg?   Can dragon eggs be repositories for dead Targaryens who bond with the eggs/dragons?  Does soul transfer cause a gender change, since we are told that can happen?

 

I think it's a mistake to confuse the Targaryen practice of bonding with their eggs before the dance, with the steps required to bring dragons back into the world after the Dance.

My guess is there was a belief that the Targareyns could better bond with their dragon if they were in contact with it while still in the egg.  It didn't seem to be a necessary pre-requisite for hatching the eggs, because it seemed that even wild dragons were hatched without having to be in close contact with a Targaryen.  But I dont' have a real strong opinion on this.

I think the issue GRRM presented, was how to create life from death.  And the current state of the dragons, indicated that these eggs were barren, at least up until the necessary magics happened that restored them to life.

 

[Frey family reunion]

Going back to Summerhall, if we assume that Dany stumbled onto the necessary pre-requisites to hatch a dragon, i.e., blood magic and an extremely hot fire, perhaps Aegon through research came to the same conclusion.

If that's the case, then perhaps it explains the presence of the pyromancers at Summerhall, they were needed for a flame hot enough to hatch the dragons.  But presumably that wasn't enough.  That there also had to be a sacrifice, or multiple sacrifices for the blood magic to create life where there previously was no life. 

That might explain the next tidbit we have from Summerhall, that there was a betrayal.  We might have a sort of parallel with Duncan the Tall and Aegon that we've seen with Davos and Stannis.  Davos betrays Stannis when he sends Edric Storm away, to prevent Melisandre from sacriicing him.  The parallel would obviously be Duncan betraying Aegon to prevent the sacrifices planned at Summerhall.  And the end result being wildfire going out of control in the ensuing chaos.

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

Going back to Summerhall, if we assume that Dany stumbled onto the necessary pre-requisites to hatch a dragon, i.e., blood magic and an extremely hot fire, perhaps Aegon through research came to the same conclusion.

I think you also need someone who has undergone the spiritual transformation Dany undergoes when she wakes the dragon and becomes the bride of fire and the mother of dragons.

 

 

 

[Frey family reunion]

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

I think you also need someone who has undergone the spiritual transformation Dany undergoes when she wakes the dragon and becomes the bride of fire and the mother of dragons.

 

 

 

No, I definitely agree that Dany was the missing ingredient to hatch the dragons, both in Summerhall, and perhaps at the tower of joy as well...

[chrisdaw]

4 hours ago, LynnS said:

What is the business of cradle eggs?  What is that supposed to accomplish?  Does this have something to do with soul bonding between infant and egg?   Can dragon eggs be repositories for dead Targaryens who bond with the eggs/dragons?  Does soul transfer cause a gender change, since we are told that can happen?

Dragon riding children soul slipping while in the womb into eggs is probably a thing, and that contaminates the mother as well as the child with dragon blood (as explained in the text skin changing/soul swapping leaves a part of the soul/blood and brings a part of the other soul/blood back with it). And then probably again as children next to a cradled egg.

Dany too along with Drogo and Rhaego was undergoing the process of dying and entering the egg during the wake the dragon dream, her soul got all the way inside a dragon/egg but her human body survived and her soul snapped back to it, like Varamyr's getting thrown out of Thistle and snapping back to his body. We are going to find out that's what happened to baby Rhaegar at Summerhall, and that his obsession with waking dragons and the death of kings is going to be spurred by similar dreams/visions as Dany's wake the dragon dream and subsequent visions.

Dragon dreams are probably a Targ/Valyrian's soul swapping with a dragon's while the person is sleeping.

Dragons can definitely take multiple souls (and one can dominate another, that's what Bran/Hodor and the Varamyr prologue is explaining) and dragon riding families (dragonlords) will all have had second lives inside their dragons, even the ones that didn't ride(that's why dragons keep growing, they're adding more souls). That's the significance of this passage.

Quote

Some scholars have suggested that the dragonlords regarded all faiths as equally false, believing themselves to be more powerful than any god or goddess. They looked upon priests and temples as relics of a more primitive time, though useful for placating "slaves, savages, and the poor" with promises of a better life to come. Moreover, a multiplicity of gods helped to keep their subjects divided and lessened the chances of their uniting under the banner of a single faith to overthrow their overlords. Religious tolerance was to them a means of keeping the peace in the Lands of the Long Summer.

When you understand that they will die and second life dragons the point of the above passage becomes clear, and why they name their dragons gods.

[LynnS]

16 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

When you understand that they will die and second life dragons the point of the above passage becomes clear, and why they name their dragons gods.

I find this very interesting and plausible.

[LynnS]

16 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

Dragon dreams are probably a Targ/Valyrian's soul swapping with a dragon's while the person is sleeping.

What do you make of this passage:

Quote

 

A Storm of Swords - Daenerys III

That night she dreamt that she was Rhaegar, riding to the Trident. But she was mounted on a dragon, not a horse. When she saw the Usurper's rebel host across the river they were armored all in ice, but she bathed them in dragonfire and they melted away like dew and turned the Trident into a torrent. Some small part of her knew that she was dreaming, but another part exulted. This is how it was meant to be. The other was a nightmare, and I have only now awakened.

She woke suddenly in the darkness of her cabin, still flush with triumph. Balerion seemed to wake with her, and she heard the faint creak of wood, water lapping against the hull, a football on the deck above her head. And something else.