Bittersteel, and Blackfyre's Worth

[Laelor]

I have a small theory (I'm new the to forums but haven't seen this elsewhere) about Aegor Rivers "Bittersteel" founding the Golden Company and the disappearance of the Blackfyre sword. I believe Bittersteel sold Blackfyre to afford the costs of starting a mercenary company. Bittersteel established the Golden Company as a way for the exiles to continue their support of the Blackfyre line. Notably, their first 'event' as a company is the sacking of Qohor. A place famous for supposedly having the only Valyrian steel blacksmiths left in the world. This puts him at a location familiar with Valyrian steel around the founding of the Golden Company, and coming away in the same time period with wealth.  

 

Daemon II notably doesn't have Blackfyre during the Second Blackfyre Rebellion, as Bittersteel doesn't agree with the plan and refuses to give him the sword. 

Haegon I is not mentioned wielding Blackfyre, but did "give up his sword" when he surrendered at the Third Blackfyre Rebellion. Bittersteel is also captured. If either possessed the Blackfyre sword, then the Targaryens would take it back at this point. This is also the second duel between Bittersteel and Bloodraven, and no clash of Targaryen blades is noted like the first duel. 

Daemon III comes back to Westeros with Bittersteel for the brief Fourth Blackfyre Rebellion. Again, no note of the Blackfyre sword being wielded by either of them. 

Maelys I is the last Blackfyre to rebel in the Blackfyre, and at the time, is leader of the Golden Company. There is no note of him wielding Blackfyre. At this point it can no longer be blamed on Bittersteel holding the sword back as he dead years earlier. As leader of the company built on aiding the Blackfyres, and a Blackfyre himself, if anyone should have the sword at that point its Maelys. Also, if he had wielded Blackfyre I'm not sure even Barristan the Bold could have defeated him.

 

Considering the origin of their name, and the legitimacy it lends to their claim, the Blackfyre sword is key to any Blackfyre being taken seriously. Yet only Daemon I wielded it. Given the timing around the Golden Company, their apparent wealth, and the absolute disappearance of the sword after this point, I think Bittersteel went to Qohor and sold it to the smiths there. Beyond the obvious, this also lends some weight to their words "Under the gold, the bitter steel". Not just the bitter man, but the bitter decision he made to sell their steel for gold and a chance to last long enough to fight again.

 

[EggBlue]

welcome! I like your theory. though if they sacked Qohor , then it could have been possible that they got Blackfyre back before its melting into other swords or that they could easily have the smiths forge it again. so, may I suggest that Bittersteel sold the sword elsewhere?

[Jaenara Belarys]

First off, welcome to the forum! Hope you have a good time here.

 

My personal headcanon is that the Blackfyres still had it, but they lost it and it somehow ended up with Illyrio, who's descended from the Blackfyres. I think he intends to give it to fAegon, his son with Varys' sister Serra. 

Entirely theory of course, we'd have to wait for another book. 

[Brynden"Bloodraven" Rivers]

24 minutes ago, Laelor said:

I have a small theory (I'm new the to forums but haven't seen this elsewhere) about Aegor Rivers "Bittersteel" founding the Golden Company and the disappearance of the Blackfyre sword. I believe Bittersteel sold Blackfyre to afford the costs of starting a mercenary company. Bittersteel established the Golden Company as a way for the exiles to continue their support of the Blackfyre line. Notably, their first 'event' as a company is the sacking of Qohor. A place famous for supposedly having the only Valyrian steel blacksmiths left in the world. This puts him at a location familiar with Valyrian steel around the founding of the Golden Company, and coming away in the same time period with wealth.  

 

Daemon II notably doesn't have Blackfyre during the Second Blackfyre Rebellion, as Bittersteel doesn't agree with the plan and refuses to give him the sword. 

Haegon I is not mentioned wielding Blackfyre, but did "give up his sword" when he surrendered at the Third Blackfyre Rebellion. Bittersteel is also captured. If either possessed the Blackfyre sword, then the Targaryens would take it back at this point. This is also the second duel between Bittersteel and Bloodraven, and no clash of Targaryen blades is noted like the first duel. 

Daemon III comes back to Westeros with Bittersteel for the brief Fourth Blackfyre Rebellion. Again, no note of the Blackfyre sword being wielded by either of them. 

Maelys I is the last Blackfyre to rebel in the Blackfyre, and at the time, is leader of the Golden Company. There is no note of him wielding Blackfyre. At this point it can no longer be blamed on Bittersteel holding the sword back as he dead years earlier. As leader of the company built on aiding the Blackfyres, and a Blackfyre himself, if anyone should have the sword at that point its Maelys. Also, if he had wielded Blackfyre I'm not sure even Barristan the Bold could have defeated him.

 

Considering the origin of their name, and the legitimacy it lends to their claim, the Blackfyre sword is key to any Blackfyre being taken seriously. Yet only Daemon I wielded it. Given the timing around the Golden Company, their apparent wealth, and the absolute disappearance of the sword after this point, I think Bittersteel went to Qohor and sold it to the smiths there. Beyond the obvious, this also lends some weight to their words "Under the gold, the bitter steel". Not just the bitter man, but the bitter decision he made to sell their steel for gold and a chance to last long enough to fight again.

 

This is a pretty good theory. I've also speculated that Blackfyre was lost by Bittersteel a long time ago. I would like to hear your opinion on whether Blackfyre will play a role in the upcoming novels.

[Laelor]

18 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

welcome! I like your theory. though if they sacked Qohor , then it could have been possible that they got Blackfyre back before its melting into other swords or that they could easily have the smiths forge it again. so, may I suggest that Bittersteel sold the sword elsewhere?

I like this, I'm not fully convinced on Qohor being relevant. It was just a connection between the steel and early days of the company. He could very easily have sold it somewhere else or had it reforged to hide it.

[James Steller]

I'm fully expecting fAegon to wield Blackfyre, which will be the clear hint to us that he's not actually Rhaegar's son. Jon Connington will be too stupid to see it; he'll buy whatever Varys tells him to explain everything. Maybe he won't even need convincing, he might be too desperate to question anything.

[Laelor]

14 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

First off, welcome to the forum! Hope you have a good time here.

 

My personal headcanon is that the Blackfyres still had it, but they lost it and it somehow ended up with Illyrio, who's descended from the Blackfyres. I think he intends to give it to fAegon, his son with Varys' sister Serra. 

Entirely theory of course, we'd have to wait for another book. 

This would be a great reveal, and Illyrio is certainly rich enough to purchase Valyrian steel. If he knew he was a Blackfyre from birth I can definitely see him clawing his way into wealth to purchase the family sword back.

[Jaenara Belarys]

4 minutes ago, Laelor said:

This would be a great reveal, and Illyrio is certainly rich enough to purchase Valyrian steel. If he knew he was a Blackfyre from birth I can definitely see him clawing his way into wealth to purchase the family sword back.

It would. However, that would also carry the risk of fAegon being branded "just another Blackfyre pretender", since they've had such an association with the sword in the last century, down to the family name. 

[Laelor]

6 minutes ago, Brynden"Bloodraven" Rivers said:

This is a pretty good theory. I've also speculated that Blackfyre was lost by Bittersteel a long time ago. I would like to hear your opinion on whether Blackfyre will play a role in the upcoming novels.

I think it's the expected reveal, that fAegon will come forward with the Blackfyre sword and reveal himself to be a Blackfyre (or think he's a Targaryen still, they had it first to be fair). He walks into the Golden Company with his hair out and the next time we see them they're fully invested. So the assumption is that he did something to prove himself.

Personally I think the theme of things never working out the way people ideally imagine will continue and the Golden Company flatly told fAegon they either lost it or sold it years ago.

[Laelor]

13 minutes ago, James Steller said:

I'm fully expecting fAegon to wield Blackfyre, which will be the clear hint to us that he's not actually Rhaegar's son. Jon Connington will be too stupid to see it; he'll buy whatever Varys tells him to explain everything. Maybe he won't even need convincing, he might be too desperate to question anything.

Definitely think Jon Connington will start making more erratic decisions and ignoring the truth as he tries to get fAegon on the throne before he dies.

[Laelor]

6 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

It would. However, that would also carry the risk of fAegon being branded "just another Blackfyre pretender", since they've had such an association with the sword in the last century, down to the family name. 

It's a real concern. If that was such a negative association would they even want the sword at that point? It proves they have Targaryen blood at least. Maybe at this point people are so fed up with a non-Targaryen monarch that they're willing to accept even a Blackfyre on the throne. People love talking about how distantly related they are to X house or X legendary figure.

[Mourning Star]

I think this is a great theory!

Quote

The dwarf pondered that. The Golden Company was reputedly the finest of the free companies, founded a century ago by Bittersteel, a bastard son of Aegon the Unworthy. When another of Aegon's Great Bastards tried to seize the Iron Throne from his trueborn half-brother, Bittersteel joined the revolt. Daemon Blackfyre had perished on the Redgrass Field, however, and his rebellion with him. Those followers of the Black Dragon who survived the battle yet refused to bend the knee fled across the narrow sea, among them Daemon's younger sons, Bittersteel, and hundreds of landless lords and knights who soon found themselves forced to sell their swords to eat. Some joined the Ragged Standard, some the Second Sons or Maiden's Men. Bittersteel saw the strength of House Blackfyre scattering to the four winds, so he formed the Golden Company to bind the exiles together.

From that day to this, the men of the Golden Company had lived and died in the Disputed Lands, fighting for Myr or Lys or Tyrosh in their pointless little wars, and dreaming of the land their fathers had lost. They were exiles and sons of exiles, dispossessed and unforgiven … yet formidable fighters still.

A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion II

I would even go a step further ang suggest that it was the Archon of Tyrosh who bought the sword from Bittersteal and they have since sold it back to Illyrio.

I don't have hard evidence of this, but there are, I think, several mentions of Tyrosh worth noting in regards to this:

The most obvious being that Daemon Blackfyre was married to Rohanne of Tyrosh, and it was to Tyrosh that Bittersteal and the remaining Blackfyres fled after the Redgrass field.

More recently in the plot the Archon of Tyrosh pops up at some interesting moments:

Quote

Illyrio whispered to them. "Those three are Drogo's bloodriders, there," he said. "By the pillar is Khal Moro, with his son Rhogoro. The man with the green beard is brother to the Archon of Tyrosh, and the man behind him is Ser Jorah Mormont."

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys I

And there is even the connection to Dorne amidst all the plots:

Quote

"That green-haired girl was the Archon's daughter. I was to have sent you to Tyrosh in her place. You would have served the Archon as a cupbearer and met with your betrothed in secret, but your mother threatened to harm herself if I stole another of her children, and I . . . I could not do that to her."

A Feast for Crows - The Princess In The Tower

 

[Jaenara Belarys]

@Curled Finger, any opinions?

[Curled Finger]

21 hours ago, Laelor said:

I have a small theory (I'm new the to forums but haven't seen this elsewhere) about Aegor Rivers "Bittersteel" founding the Golden Company and the disappearance of the Blackfyre sword. I believe Bittersteel sold Blackfyre to afford the costs of starting a mercenary company. Bittersteel established the Golden Company as a way for the exiles to continue their support of the Blackfyre line. Notably, their first 'event' as a company is the sacking of Qohor. A place famous for supposedly having the only Valyrian steel blacksmiths left in the world. This puts him at a location familiar with Valyrian steel around the founding of the Golden Company, and coming away in the same time period with wealth.  

Daemon II notably doesn't have Blackfyre during the Second Blackfyre Rebellion, as Bittersteel doesn't agree with the plan and refuses to give him the sword. 

Haegon I is not mentioned wielding Blackfyre, but did "give up his sword" when he surrendered at the Third Blackfyre Rebellion. Bittersteel is also captured. If either possessed the Blackfyre sword, then the Targaryens would take it back at this point. This is also the second duel between Bittersteel and Bloodraven, and no clash of Targaryen blades is noted like the first duel. 

Daemon III comes back to Westeros with Bittersteel for the brief Fourth Blackfyre Rebellion. Again, no note of the Blackfyre sword being wielded by either of them. 

Maelys I is the last Blackfyre to rebel in the Blackfyre, and at the time, is leader of the Golden Company. There is no note of him wielding Blackfyre. At this point it can no longer be blamed on Bittersteel holding the sword back as he dead years earlier. As leader of the company built on aiding the Blackfyres, and a Blackfyre himself, if anyone should have the sword at that point its Maelys. Also, if he had wielded Blackfyre I'm not sure even Barristan the Bold could have defeated him.

Considering the origin of their name, and the legitimacy it lends to their claim, the Blackfyre sword is key to any Blackfyre being taken seriously. Yet only Daemon I wielded it. Given the timing around the Golden Company, their apparent wealth, and the absolute disappearance of the sword after this point, I think Bittersteel went to Qohor and sold it to the smiths there. Beyond the obvious, this also lends some weight to their words "Under the gold, the bitter steel". Not just the bitter man, but the bitter decision he made to sell their steel for gold and a chance to last long enough to fight again.

 

Welcome, Laelor--nice introductory conversation.   I too, have long wondered why none of the Blackfyres ever turned up with the famed sword again though many rebellions followed. While I'm not sure that Blackfyre was sold, I think it may well have been given over for safekeeping in exchange for $$$ in the form of perhaps a dowry for Sera Blackfyre Mopatis.   As an end of the line Blackfyre, she's really the only one (prostitution had to be a long fall from grace for our lady) who could continue the line and a wealthy cheesemonger would be a great way to secure funds and support for the extension of that important line.  I like your thinking and believe we have similar ideas about this sword's fate.   As to Blackfyre's symbolism, I couldn't agree more.   It is the Targaryan sword of kings after all.  You put a clever spin on the Golden Company motto, too.   

That said I do think a certain VS sword was sold for cash to raise an army but in Westeros--Gull Town specifically.   That sword was Truth and I got to this conclusion by obsessively re-reading F&B.  Moredo was hurtin' for certain and had a very specific use for that cash.   Too bad it didn't turn out so well for the Rogarres which leads me to believe that one should hang on to their VS sword as long as possible all consequences be damned.  Isn't that so interesting with both Jamie Lannister and Jeor Mormont just gifting their swords away in our tale?  

5 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

@Curled Finger, any opinions?

Thank you for the invitation to join.   I do love a chat about the swords!  

[Laelor]

7 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

I think this is a great theory!

I would even go a step further ang suggest that it was the Archon of Tyrosh who bought the sword from Bittersteal and they have since sold it back to Illyrio.

I don't have hard evidence of this, but there are, I think, several mentions of Tyrosh worth noting in regards to this:

The most obvious being that Daemon Blackfyre was married to Rohanne of Tyrosh, and it was to Tyrosh that Bittersteal and the remaining Blackfyres fled after the Redgrass field.

More recently in the plot the Archon of Tyrosh pops up at some interesting moments:

And there is even the connection to Dorne amidst all the plots:

 

I think this is a great addition to the theory. As @EggBlue mentioned, it's probable he sold the sword somewhere besides Qohor and makes a lot of sense based on the connections you've made. Considering how important wealth and appearance is in Tyrosh, it's easy to imagine the Archon presenting Bittersteel with the hard choice of selling the sword to him. 

[Laelor]

13 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Welcome, Laelor--nice introductory conversation.   I too, have long wondered why none of the Blackfyres ever turned up with the famed sword again though many rebellions followed. While I'm not sure that Blackfyre was sold, I think it may well have been given over for safekeeping in exchange for $$$ in the form of perhaps a dowry for Sera Blackfyre Mopatis.   As an end of the line Blackfyre, she's really the only one (prostitution had to be a long fall from grace for our lady) who could continue the line and a wealthy cheesemonger would be a great way to secure funds and support for the extension of that important line.  I like your thinking and believe we have similar ideas about this sword's fate.   As to Blackfyre's symbolism, I couldn't agree more.   It is the Targaryan sword of kings after all.  You put a clever spin on the Golden Company motto, too.   

That said I do think a certain VS sword was sold for cash to raise an army but in Westeros--Gull Town specifically.   That sword was Truth and I got to this conclusion by obsessively re-reading F&B.  Moredo was hurtin' for certain and had a very specific use for that cash.   Too bad it didn't turn out so well for the Rogarres which leads me to believe that one should hang on to their VS sword as long as possible all consequences be damned.  Isn't that so interesting with both Jamie Lannister and Jeor Mormont just gifting their swords away in our tale?  

Thank you for the invitation to join.   I do love a chat about the swords!  

Safekeeping seems to be a more likely option if we expect the sword to show up again in the story. I think @Mourning Star is spot on with handing it over to the Archon of Tyrosh after the first failed rebellion. 

That's a great theory. Given the rarity of VS and the difficulty in reforging them it's a pretty hard guarantee for a big payout for anyone. 

[Curled Finger]

4 minutes ago, Laelor said:

Safekeeping seems to be a more likely option if we expect the sword to show up again in the story. I think @Mourning Star is spot on with handing it over to the Archon of Tyrosh after the first failed rebellion. 

That's a great theory. Given the rarity of VS and the difficulty in reforging them it's a pretty hard guarantee for a big payout for anyone. 

Stick around.   This is only the 1st time @Mourning Star will blow your mind.

[Laelor]

4 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Stick around.   This is only the 1st time @Mourning Star will blow your mind.

Do you think, given that other POV characters are in the same location as Dark Sister, we'll see another fight between the Targaryen house swords?

[Curled Finger]

Just now, Laelor said:

Do you think, given that other POV characters are in the same location as Dark Sister, we'll see another fight between the Targaryen house swords?

You know...that's actually a GREAT question.  Have they battled before?   Wow, I think you just inspired me to do some research.  Lady Forlorn has gone up against Blackfyre I would imagine, but have the Targ swords ever gone against each other?  Why would they?  Let me counter query this:  Do you believe the Valyrian Steel swords were all forged for the same purpose in this tale?    If so, what is that purpose?  I see a big hairy magical battle...an event the swords are drawn to.  To a lesser degree I think the swords tell us something about their wielders.   We don't know how magic works here really.  We have ideas, but we don't know.  These are magic swords.  

[Laelor]

6 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

You know...that's actually a GREAT question.  Have they battled before?   Wow, I think you just inspired me to do some research.  Lady Forlorn has gone up against Blackfyre I would imagine, but have the Targ swords ever gone against each other?  Why would they?  Let me counter query this:  Do you believe the Valyrian Steel swords were all forged for the same purpose in this tale?    If so, what is that purpose?  I see a big hairy magical battle...an event the swords are drawn to.  To a lesser degree I think the swords tell us something about their wielders.   We don't know how magic works here really.  We have ideas, but we don't know.  These are magic swords.  

I assumed Bittersteel picked up Blackfyre to fight Bloodraven, but looking now it doesn't actually say that anywhere. You're right about them being magic swords, do they work like the One Ring in LotR with their own vague wants? Do they want to fight, or not to fight? Does that influence anyone wielding them? The Sword of Morning is only given to the best sword fighter from House Dayne, which implies long periods of it just sitting around, waiting.