Bittersteel, and Blackfyre's Worth

[Curled Finger]

10 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

@Lord Lannister How would Aemon know about Jon? (It's also disputed by the laws of Westeros that Jon's the "rightful heir", but that's not the topic here)

We have a lot of story here.  This topic is really getting some sketchy parts of the story into the light.  I have read @Lord Lannister posts a few times now because it takes real descriptions into consideration.   Gotta love a detail guy in all this!   Concentrating specifically on the North the only sword we know for certain is anywhere is Longclaw.  Yes, it's a bastard sword given to a bastard--from another house!  That's hinky enough to make you take a double look at the exchange.   Who gives swords away?   Jeor Mormont and Jamie Lannister among at least 12 houses who own VS, the Daynes, which brings the point into clear focus.  Ned killed everyone at the TOJ but still made time to return Dawn to House Dayne.   Tywin appropriated Ice from House Stark then had it reforged into 2 swords.  Jorah is desperate for money yet abandons Longclaw?  Further Maege doesn't think twice about keeping the priceless sword--the ancestral sword of House Mormont.  It's not like there are not more male heirs here--Alysanne has a son.   Shouldn't he get Longclaw?   These are by no means wimpy women and we have Visenya Targaryan to prove a woman may possess a magic sword.  Why send Longclaw back to Jeor at the Wall where he has taken oaths to leave his family?  To stress this oddity Jeor takes it a step further and has Longclaw's pommel remade from a pale stone and garnets specifically for Jon Snow.   Yah yah the silver bear melted, but this is just a weird exchange.  Jeor never tells Jon to rename the sword.  To add to the weird Jon abandons Longclaw!  Maybe Longclaw never really was House Mormont's ancestral sword...

@Laelor commented earlier that Dawn waits.  Perhaps all the swords wait for their real heroes and purpose.  

[Curled Finger]

On 12/3/2021 at 5:26 PM, Laelor said:

So then what's the connection to dragon glass and dragon steel? If the Valyrians invented the process of VS, and the First Men (or older) used dragon glass they found, is there any connection at all? Was it just dragon glass swords for a long time and then the Valyrians came along with VS and people got confused and mistook the two as the same? Or has VS been around a lot longer than it seems and these swords are much older than it appears?

It's interesting as you say, the swords have been stagnant for a long time and now very suddenly a lot of them are moving around and changing hands, placing themselves around important people. 

To boil it down to the simplest conclusion I can make, the "technology" for making dragon steel was rediscovered/perfected by the Valyrians with their wonderful dragons.  Dragon glass is simple obsidian which is no more that volcanic rock really.  But it's sharp--really sharp.  You can see and feel the glass pieces in a lump of volcanic rock.  I think dragon glass is a component in making dragon steel which was in use while the 1st Men were still using bronze for their weapons.   Dragon steel was out of time yet necessary for the time it was in use.  Whether this was Dawn or Ice, I cannot say, but this weapon was necessary for the pushing back of the Others.  Not destroyed, pushed back.  Eons later we find the Others returning.  Dragon glass is rediscovered.  While we don't know that dragon steel is Valyrian Steel, I am willing to be they are very close to the same thing.  

[Julia H.]

1 hour ago, Lord Lannister said:

Misgivings about that one question aside, Jeor's explanation on Longclaw and Bittersteel's caginess about having Blackfyre after Redgrass just don't add up.

The theory would be a great answer to the very legitimate questions regarding Longclaw and it can also explain Bittersteel's behaviour. It does raise more questions, however. Now, if those questions could be answered somehow, it would be fantastic.

There is obviously something going on with lost swords, legendary swords and magical swords in the novels - though I wonder if the author is just playing with a well-known fantasy trope (and the reader's imagination) or the recurring sword motif will actually lead somewhere.

[Curled Finger]

3 minutes ago, Julia H. said:

The theory would be a great answer to the very legitimate questions regarding Longclaw and it can also explain Bittersteel's behaviour. It does raise more questions, however. Now, if those questions could be answered somehow, it would be fantastic.

There is obviously something going on with lost swords, legendary swords and magical swords in the novels - though I wonder if the author is just playing with a well-known fantasy trope (and the reader's imagination) or the recurring sword motif will actually lead somewhere.

Hey Julia always good to see you.  Now you've piqued my interest.  So much is made of these tropy swords, true enough.  They have histories and names.   You find them mentioned in battle and among the dead in at least one case.  Seems like an awful lot of effort to put in for something that will go nowhere.  We've got a ton of focus on stupid Joffrey and to a lesser degree Arya's sword (s) naming.  Why bother if the swords are not real characters in this tale? 

[Julia H.]

3 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Hey Julia always good to see you.  Now you've piqued my interest.  So much is made of these tropy swords, true enough.  They have histories and names.   You find them mentioned in battle and among the dead in at least one case.  Seems like an awful lot of effort to put in for something that will go nowhere.  We've got a ton of focus on stupid Joffrey and to a lesser degree Arya's sword (s) naming.  Why bother if the swords are not real characters in this tale? 

Why bother, indeed?  

In myths and stories heroes often find, win or (re)forge the sword destined for them. This story is full of lost magical swords, so will at least some of these swords show up to find their respective heroes? There is also a split sword, but will it ever be reforged? Soldiers are also swords though. Moreover, the comet is compared to a sword (Ice), the Wall is also compared to a sword (Ice again?), and there is even a star called a Sword - the comet and the star are celestial bodies and are thus very old by human standards, and the Wall, though not a celestial object, is also ancient and magical. Where will it all lead? Is it just an exciting part of the world-building process or is there something more to the sword motif?

[Curled Finger]

1 hour ago, Julia H. said:

Why bother, indeed?  

In myths and stories heroes often find, win or (re)forge the sword destined for them. This story is full of lost magical swords, so will at least some of these swords show up to find their respective heroes? There is also a split sword, but will it ever be reforged? Soldiers are also swords though. Moreover, the comet is compared to a sword (Ice), the Wall is also compared to a sword (Ice again?), and there is even a star called a Sword - the comet and the star are celestial bodies and are thus very old by human standards, and the Wall, though not a celestial object, is also ancient and magical. Where will it all lead? Is it just an exciting part of the world-building process or is there something more to the sword motif?

There is no denying the truth in your words about the word "sword" in this story.  Immediate flash to "I am the sword in the darkness..."  Those Nights Watchmen sure have got a lot to do don't they?  Of course I do think there is much more to the swords and their purposes as much as any of the characters here.  I saw the COTF lambaste a few wights with something interesting, but outside a dwindling race's winter magic what else have humans got on their side in this?  Dany has dragons and that's a wonderful thing...if she happens to be around when the Others decide to appear enmass.  (Dragons will make wide swaths of snow between the wights.) When it comes down to a show down or even a negotiation with these Others I would think the humans need something portable to protect themselves with--an amulet, a crest or a spell.  Sadly our humans have none of these options.  Looks like all they can count on is weaponry and armor.  Admittedly I do see a battle on the horizon, but even if this showdown or palaver comes down to something as silly and cutting the oldest weirwood tree down, at least a real sword could be useful.  

I think the swords are finding their way to their heroes.  Longclaw sorta fell out of the sky for Jon Snow.  Jamie couldn't wait to give Oathkeeper to Brienne just as Joffrey couldn't wait to trash a good book with Widow's Wail.  Red Rain and Nightfall are won, but stayed tuned there.  It's likely 2 or 3 of the remaining missing swords will be found in TWOW--Blackfyre, Dark Sister and Vigilance.  Won't that be interesting.  I think this illustrates (hopes, rather) how the swords are becoming present in the over all story.  Who has Longclaw while Jon's, er, gone? 

Ah Julia H.   you must come play next time we try to match up the swords with the heroes.   I would love to see your pairings and the reasons for them.  Do Widow's Wail and Oathkeeper have to be reforged to be effective?  Jamie does dream them turn blue.   Ah sword betrayal would be so Martinesq.  Nonetheless your subdued use of symbolism would be very welcome in the fun.      

[Julia H.]

33 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Ah Julia H.   you must come play next time we try to match up the swords with the heroes.   I would love to see your pairings and the reasons for them.  Do Widow's Wail and Oathkeeper have to be reforged to be effective?  Jamie does dream them turn blue.   Ah sword betrayal would be so Martinesq.  Nonetheless your subdued use of symbolism would be very welcome in the fun.      

Just let me know when the next game is. 

[Laelor]

I'm very pleased with how much this topic is being discussed and the theories being thrown around.

I've been looking at Valyrian swords and have noticed that despite their importance to each house, very few of them have a well recorded history. Interestingly though, those that do have some history attached seem to appear around the same time.

Longclaw of House Mormont (as brought up by @Lord Lannister) has been carried by the Mormonts for 500 years. No mention of how they came to it.

Heartsbane of House Tarly has been a family heirloom for for 500 years. Again no mention of how they got it.

Brightroar of House Lannister came into their possession 100 years before the Doom (So about 200BC?). Rumoured that they bought it with enough gold to raise an army, but then every Lannister is chalked up to gold.

Lady Forlorn of House Corbray is named for an even older sword of unknown make dating back to the Coming of the Andals. They aquired a Valyrian sword at some point and named it Lady Forlorn. The earliest mention is a battle in 43AC. They could potentially have gotten it around the 200BC mark, although that's pure speculation.

Ice of House Stark is in a similar boat. Named for an even older sword of unknown make. They got their Valyrian steel copy 400 years before King Robert I becomes king. This puts it at the same time as the Doom, but could also be read as a little early as "Before King Robert I Baratheon's reign" is a bit vague.

The discussion around the swords showing up and disappearing is very interesting. Given how old the Valyrian Freehold was, and how old some of these Houses are, it seems odd that these swords aren't more staggered in when they were acquired.

@Curled Finger with all the information on which sword killed who, it seems strange no one wrote down a receipt.

[Curled Finger]

10 hours ago, Laelor said:

I'm very pleased with how much this topic is being discussed and the theories being thrown around.

I've been looking at Valyrian swords and have noticed that despite their importance to each house, very few of them have a well recorded history. Interestingly though, those that do have some history attached seem to appear around the same time.

Longclaw of House Mormont (as brought up by @Lord Lannister) has been carried by the Mormonts for 500 years. No mention of how they came to it.

Heartsbane of House Tarly has been a family heirloom for for 500 years. Again no mention of how they got it.

Brightroar of House Lannister came into their possession 100 years before the Doom (So about 200BC?). Rumoured that they bought it with enough gold to raise an army, but then every Lannister is chalked up to gold.

Lady Forlorn of House Corbray is named for an even older sword of unknown make dating back to the Coming of the Andals. They aquired a Valyrian sword at some point and named it Lady Forlorn. The earliest mention is a battle in 43AC. They could potentially have gotten it around the 200BC mark, although that's pure speculation.

Ice of House Stark is in a similar boat. Named for an even older sword of unknown make. They got their Valyrian steel copy 400 years before King Robert I becomes king. This puts it at the same time as the Doom, but could also be read as a little early as "Before King Robert I Baratheon's reign" is a bit vague.

The discussion around the swords showing up and disappearing is very interesting. Given how old the Valyrian Freehold was, and how old some of these Houses are, it seems odd that these swords aren't more staggered in when they were acquired.

@Curled Finger with all the information on which sword killed who, it seems strange no one wrote down a receipt.

There is a great deal of ambiguity regarding the appearances and histories of the swords--this has forced an awful lot of battle checking to see where members of certain houses crossed the paths of other houses.  Those appearance times are sketchy--I chalk this up to record keeping and perhaps literacy of sword possessing houses way back.   There is no reason at all these swords wouldn't have been around much longer, but this thinking only leads down long rabbit holes.   I think it's easier to take the times are reported and run with it best I can.  You mentioned Lady Forlorn which is a most curious sort of appearance.  Ice was also named for an older ancestral sword.  Just an odd occurrence or meaningful?  

I think who had, has and will have these swords is very important to the overall story as I do believe they serve a specific purpose near end game, perhaps beyond.   We have to toss Dawn and Needle into this sword salad, too, if for no other reason than the focus and mention given both.  

You really rekindled the spark in me @Laelor and I have begun collecting quotes regarding the swords and their um actions.  Perhaps another discussion will come of it all.  I hope you will join us if a topic happens to come of this research!   

[Mourning Star]

On 12/3/2021 at 5:53 PM, Laelor said:

I assumed Bittersteel picked up Blackfyre to fight Bloodraven, but looking now it doesn't actually say that anywhere.

In fact, the swords Dark Sister and Blackfyre aren't even really mentioned in the main series at all. So I do think we need to temper expectations about how involved they will be in the larger story. I do expect them to both reappear, but I don't think they compare to Dawn in "magical" significance. 

[Curled Finger]

26 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

In fact, the swords Dark Sister and Blackfyre aren't even really mentioned in the main series at all. So I do think we need to temper expectations about how involved they will be in the larger story. I do expect them to both reappear, but I don't think they compare to Dawn in "magical" significance. 

We did a study on precisely this and I have to agree with you that the Targaryan swords enter the story in a most tardy manner.  So many of them show up in TPATQ that we never heard of before.  Fire & Blood shed a lot of light on Orphan-maker and Truth, perhaps Caggo's arakh as well but no way to know for sure if that was a real connection.   Seems Vigilange is still lacking history and discussion--maybe a thing or not, but I know I'm watching TWOW for it! 

[Seams]

On 12/5/2021 at 3:15 PM, Julia H. said:

the Wall is also compared to a sword (Ice again?)

The Wall is "given" to Jon Snow by a smith. The same smith who gave Robert his war hammer. 

Quote

"I need two bows and two spears to help me hold the tunnel if they break the gate." More than ten stepped forward, and the smith picked his four. "Jon, you have the Wall till I return."

For a moment Jon thought he had misheard. It had sounded as if Noye were leaving him in command. "My lord?"

...

Donal Noye did not return, nor any of them who'd gone down with him to hold that black cold tunnel. The Wall is mine, Jon reminded himself whenever he felt his strength flagging.

...

Maester Aemon was courteous, but firm. "My lords, when Donal Noye was slain, it was this young man Jon Snow who took the Wall and held it, against all the fury of the north. He has proved himself valiant, loyal, and resourceful. Were it not for him, you would have found Mance Rayder sitting here when you arrived, Lord Slynt. You are doing him a great wrong. Jon Snow was Lord Mormont's own steward and squire. He was chosen for that duty because the Lord Commander saw much promise in him. As do I."

Aemon's version has three people choosing Jon Snow to take the Wall: Noye, Mormont and Aemon himself. His choice of phrase about the "fury of the north" is also a clue for us: in their house words, House Baratheon claims to own the fury but the north is "owned" by House Stark. If Jon Snow has held the Wall in spite of the fury of the north, has he been victorious over both of those Houses? 

And then Jon Snow takes up residency in the smith's vacated forge. Is Jon being reforged at that point? How about this possible interpretation, using the three men listed by Maester Aemon: Jon Snow is burned in Mormont's bedchamber. Jon Snow feeds raw meat to the ravens in Aemon's tower (i.e., gets blood on his hands). Jon Snow sleeps and heals in Noye's bedchamber / forge. Are fire, blood and sleep three necessary stages for reforging a sword? (Jon Snow left Longclaw in his bed when he deserted the Night's Watch. Maybe that was the necessary sleep for that sword.)

To understand the matches between people and swords, I think we need to examine smiths, who gave the sword to whom, Masters at Arms (is there a relationship between a claw and a Thorne?) and other things that are given or taken: horses, direwolves, betrothals, shields, ships, dragon eggs, gowns, cloaks, wedding gifts, Arya's odd gifts from the sailors, etc. Tommen having a pet fawn that Joffrey kills to make a doublet? For his groom's gifts, why does Joffrey receive horse-related gifts but no horse? We know that a dragon can have only one rider at a time; is this also true of swords? 

Swords are often handed down from father to son so the exceptions should stand out to us, as some of the previous comments in this thread have already pointed out. Tywin specifically recommends that Tyrion help himself to a dagger that Uncle Gerion gave to King Robert. (Like Donal Noye, Jeor Mormont and Maester Aemon choosing Jon Snow for command, is this the equivalent of three men - Gerion, Robert and Tywin - "giving" the dagger to Tyrion?) What is the significance of Dunk using the sword that came from Ser Arlan (and that would have gone to his nephew, Roger, if he had lived)? Mormont gives a sword to Jon Snow but he gives an axe to Craster. Asha catches an axe thrown along a table and she claims to have given birth to a dagger. 

Another set of clues for us: Thoros buys cheap swords in bulk and sets them on fire, causing them to deteriorate. Thoros is also able to breathe life into a dead guy. How is the sword trick the equivalent of the rebirth trick? Is a sword equal to a soul?

In addition to looking at who is slain by which sword, I think we need to look at pairings and clashes: Dark Sister and Blackfyre are linked. Oathkeeper and Widow's Wail are linked. Probably Brightroar and Red Rain are linked. I'm sure there are others. Do the swords "like" to be together, or do bad things happen when they are together? 

 

[Curled Finger]

7 hours ago, Seams said:

? Is a sword equal to a soul?

In addition to looking at who is slain by which sword, I think we need to look at pairings and clashes: Dark Sister and Blackfyre are linked. Oathkeeper and Widow's Wail are linked. Probably Brightroar and Red Rain are linked. I'm sure there are others. Do the swords "like" to be together, or do bad things happen when they are together? 

 

Our friend hiemel believes the swords eat souls. That is so creepy and cool at the same time.

Most of the swords are linked in different ways, but I think you are going with appearing together.  I have to figure the locations of the swords link them as well in that any war in the Vale would have seen both Lady Forlorn and Lamentation--both swords drinking souls for the team.  If that's true thinking we could put Red Rain and Nightfall, Longclaw and Ice, Vigilance and Heartsbane along side those you mentioned.  Still leaves some oddballs.  I think what I mean to stress in partnership with your statement is that these teams of swords do interact in most violent ways when together...but they do it alone as well.  I managed to download my google books to the computer so now I can search Fire and Blood.  The only quote I have for Lady Forlorn was something about her burying herself in someone's head.  You know I enjoy the possible magical sentience of the blades.  You make a valid point about the trouble these things get into.  Thanks Seams, now I go back to the drawing board AGAIN with endgame ideas!  

[Seams]

22 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

You know I enjoy the possible magical sentience of the blades.

Which raises the topic of the Iron Throne choosing who is allowed to sit on it, the death of Maegor, etc. 

My wordplay instincts tell me that Ser Alliser Thorne and the throne are linked. Ser Alliser is a Master at Arms and he seems disgusted with the Night's Watch recruits, who he sees as hopeless victims who will die beyond the Wall. 

But I'm told that "Dorn" is the German word for "thorn," which might mean that there is a parallel between the master at arms at the Wall and the one Cersei hopes to find for Tommen:

Quote

She left him on the drawbridge that spanned the dry moat with its bed of iron spikes and entered Maegor's Holdfast alone. Where am I to find a master-at-arms? she wondered as she climbed to her apartments. Having refused Ser Loras, she dare not turn to any of the Kingsguard knights; that would be salt in the wound, certain to anger Highgarden. Ser Tallad? Ser Dermot? There must be someone. Tommen was growing fond of his new sworn shield, but Osney was proving himself less capable than she had hoped in the matter of Maid Margaery, and she had a different office in mind for his brother Osfryd. It was rather a pity that the Hound had gone rabid. Tommen had always been frightened of Sandor Clegane's harsh voice and burned face, and Clegane's scorn would have been the perfect antidote to Loras Tyrell's simpering chivalry.

Aron Santagar was Dornish, Cersei recalled. I could send to Dorne. Centuries of blood and war lay between Sunspear and Highgarden. Yes, a Dornishman might suit my needs admirably. There must be some good swords in Dorne. (Feast, Cersei V)

...

Her patience with Pycelle had all but run its course. He had even had the temerity to object to her sending to Dorne for a master-at-arms, on the grounds that it might offend the Tyrells. "Why do you think I'm doing it?" she had asked him scornfully. (Feast, Cersei VI)

Could it be that the training we see with masters-at-arms (or Arya with Syrio, maybe even alone with a wooden sword on the branch of a tree) represents a dialogue with the sword itself? Hodor practices alone with the sword he took from the Winterfell crypt. Jaime practices with Ser Ilyn. Both Hodor and Ser Ilyn have linguistic challenges, so the idea of a "dialogue" with a sword is particularly intriguing in those cases. It raises the wordplay possibility of passing the sentence / swinging the sword (and a possible further connection to the word "sentience," that you have suggested). 

Magical or not-so-magical sentience, perhaps.

What do the swords answer back to the knights-in-training? Ser Alliser doesn't like Jon Snow. But he also doesn't like Tyrion Lannister, who is sitting on the throne when Ser Alliser shows up (with a dead wighted arm) in King's Landing. But Donal Noye tells Jon Snow how to get along with his fellow Night's Watch recruits; how to help them be better sword users. Noye's advice doesn't earn the love or respect of Ser Alliser, but it helps Jon to fit in and find a niche.

[Laelor]

On 12/7/2021 at 12:29 AM, Mourning Star said:

In fact, the swords Dark Sister and Blackfyre aren't even really mentioned in the main series at all. So I do think we need to temper expectations about how involved they will be in the larger story. I do expect them to both reappear, but I don't think they compare to Dawn in "magical" significance. 

This is why I think Blackfyre won't be there for fAegon to swing around as proof. I think it left the picture a long time ago.

Dark Sister I can go either way on, it either continues to sit in Bloodraven's cave or someone like Meera picks it up. I haven't looked into it but I'm curious if there's a through-line with the how the wielder of Dark Sister relates to the wielder of Blackfyre. Is there a common theme there?

[Laelor]

On 12/6/2021 at 8:43 PM, Curled Finger said:

There is a great deal of ambiguity regarding the appearances and histories of the swords--this has forced an awful lot of battle checking to see where members of certain houses crossed the paths of other houses.  Those appearance times are sketchy--I chalk this up to record keeping and perhaps literacy of sword possessing houses way back.   There is no reason at all these swords wouldn't have been around much longer, but this thinking only leads down long rabbit holes.   I think it's easier to take the times are reported and run with it best I can.  You mentioned Lady Forlorn which is a most curious sort of appearance.  Ice was also named for an older ancestral sword.  Just an odd occurrence or meaningful?  

I think who had, has and will have these swords is very important to the overall story as I do believe they serve a specific purpose near end game, perhaps beyond.   We have to toss Dawn and Needle into this sword salad, too, if for no other reason than the focus and mention given both.  

You really rekindled the spark in me @Laelor and I have begun collecting quotes regarding the swords and their um actions.  Perhaps another discussion will come of it all.  I hope you will join us if a topic happens to come of this research!   

I'm happy to have lit a fire under you so well. I look forward to seeing whatever you come up with based from this discussion.

[FictionIsntReal]

On 12/2/2021 at 6:25 PM, Jaenara Belarys said:

Illyrio, who's descended from the Blackfyres

Why do you think that? The Small Council knows about him sheltering Viserys & Daenerys, but nobody brings that up. And there are multiple Small Council members whose tenure predates Varys, so Varys wouldn't be able to conceal information about Blackfyre descendants marrying into the Mopatis family. I will admit that the Blackfyres both tracking & caring about female descendants and one of their offspring being a bravo is more plausible to me than the popular theory that Sera & Varys are Blackfyres (and recognized as such by the GC, thus guaranteeing support), despite both being sold as slaves when children.

On 12/5/2021 at 9:32 AM, Curled Finger said:

This topic is really getting some sketchy parts of the story into the light.

Here I think there isn't a Watsonian explanation, and the most sensible take is the Doylist one that GRRM didn't really think through how characters would treat such valuable items (I believe the rarity of Valyrian steel isn't emphasized as much in the first novel, so there's some Early Installment Weirdness).

On 12/7/2021 at 5:29 PM, Curled Finger said:

Our friend hiemel believes the swords eat souls. That is so creepy and cool at the same time.

I once suggested that Dawn itself might kill Darkstar for being "unworthy", and @Ran cited the example of Elric of Melnibone's sword "Stormbringer".

[Laelor]

9 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

I once suggested that Dawn itself might kill Darkstar for being "unworthy", and @Ran [url=https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/155528-has-grrm-stated-what-it-means-for-a-knight-to-be-worthy-to-wield-dawn/&do=findComment&comment=8442128]cited[/url] the example of Elric of Melnibone's sword "Stormbringer".

This would very interesting, if they come across Darkstar in a cave in the Dornish Pass and he's already dead. Maybe his wrists cut open like Maegor, with Dawn sitting just nearby. That would be a very fun if its true.

[Rondo]

So Blackfyre was pawned off to fund an army.  It's possible.  Perhaps Illyrio has it.  But no one alive today has seen the sword.  It will be terribly hard to authenticate.  It's not as if there were photographs.  Paintings perhaps but the accuracy will be questionable.  

[Curled Finger]

8 hours ago, Rondo said:

So Blackfyre was pawned off to fund an army.  It's possible.  Perhaps Illyrio has it.  But no one alive today has seen the sword.  It will be terribly hard to authenticate.  It's not as if there were photographs.  Paintings perhaps but the accuracy will be questionable.  

I don't recall all the details and apologize upfront for not providing direct quotes.  As I am recalling, the 1st edition of ADWD in either England or the US has a scene where Tyrion overhears some talk between Illyrio and someone from the GC in another language.  This is where Illyrio is sending chests of stuff for Young Griff.  The word he picks out is "sword" in relation to the contents of one of the chests.  

It's weird, but very cool and full of possibility.