Jump to content

The Wheel of Time: Jane Farstrider Herself (Book Spoilers)


Ran

Recommended Posts

I'm with you on the Whitecloaks, I didn't enjoy that part at all. On the upside, maybe Hopper is still alive since he hasn't been named yet?

I really enjoyed all the warder stuff though, thought it really fleshed out a group I never connected to in the books beyond Lan himself. I also think it was doing a ton of set up and foreshadowing, so it's not just a change for the sake of change, but a change to sacrifice some screen time on set up now that will save more time in subsequent seasons when they hope (I assume they hope) they have a larger budget/more freedom to depict other things.

To go back to the GoT comparison there were a lot of lines I viewed as "iconic" which were really obvious and seemed pointless changes to me. I don't have quite the same memory of the equivalent lines in WoT so if that happens I'm admittedly less likely to pick up on it, but those are definitely what I'm seeing as red flags in retrospect - if the scene is basically unchanged, but the snappy line is changed just for the sake of changing it. I know there are others that I'm blanking on, but the one I can think of right now is if they changed "your dress is green" while the rest of the scene is unchanged.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, karaddin said:

That's all fair, and I was probably overly antagonistic last night so apologies to you on that score as well.

No worries! I try to be courteous to others always, but I like to think I'm very hard to offend myself. 

19 minutes ago, karaddin said:

To go back to the GoT comparison there were a lot of lines I viewed as "iconic" which were really obvious and seemed pointless changes to me. I don't have quite the same memory of the equivalent lines in WoT so if that happens I'm admittedly less likely to pick up on it, but those are definitely what I'm seeing as red flags in retrospect - if the scene is basically unchanged, but the snappy line is changed just for the sake of changing it. I know there are others that I'm blanking on, but the one I can think of right now is if they changed "your dress is green" while the rest of the scene is unchanged

Jordan wasn't nearly as good a writer as Martin, so I don't know if there is much in the way of iconic lines.

But I would take an early GoT approach to adapting this any day. If only. GoT adapted the first book virtually scene for scene. There was some stuff added and some stuff taken out, but for the most part it was very loyal to the book. A lot of lines were verbatim from the book.

With WoT, it's shocking when there is a scene from the book in the show. It's almost entirely original material. And I think (though I'm not sure) that the Manetheren speech and Loial's lines were some of the few bits of dialog from the book used in the show. And they were both used in a pretty different context.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Ran said:

I kept telling myself that the warder grief ritual they did was one in which the selected person had to enact the grief of everyone there or something, so that Lan was to some degree acting out a ritualized role rather than conveying his personal feelings.

I doubt that's what they were thinking, but nothing contradicts it. Call it my personal head canon for the show, to try and keep TV-show Lan a bit closer to the stoic character from the novel.

I 100% think that's what they were going for. I definitely got 'designated mourner' vibes in that ritual.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't care that much about the source material as you well know ... but this was just boring as hell. The plot was nearly as slowly progressing as in some of the later the books. And that's not really that much of a problem in TEotW.

What's with those rituals all the time? We got it they have rituals when they buried the dead in the beginning, we didn't need this to happen a second time at the end.

And then waste so much time of a character you are going to kill ... but not show how Loial first met Nynaeve and brought her to the boys? And if you have to focus on the guy then why not have Ishamael show up in a dream or as a voice and being the guy who finally drove him into suicide. If you have him talk about the Forsaken then make it more than just a weird info dump scene.

Are we do believe Valda is more than just a Whitecloak questioner? Does he have a means to protect himself from the One Power? That could explain why he isn't afraid of the Aes Sedai and hasn't been killed by them so far? They could make him a secret Darkfriend ... assuming he survived the knife in the throat. But I guess he has.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, Gertrude said:

As for the money thing with Rand and Mat, yeah, sketchy. I am choosing to believe they sold their stolen horses at some point and that's where their coin came from. Mat is a horse trader, after all :p

Someone in the last thread asked if the show was going to combine Liandrin and Elaida. Personally, I think Liandrin could be combined with Alviarin pretty well with how they are building up her Tower influence.

I don't think Moiraine will defy Siuan by taking them all along the ways, but I do think she will have to sneak them out of the Tower, because I find it much less likely that the Aes Sedai will let Nyneave and Egwene out of their sight. They need to identify the DR still, so I think they (M&S) will probably decide the Eye of the World is the best way to figure that out.

 

A good suggestion that Rand and Matt sold the horses. Moreover, Matt robbed the Aiel he buried and got his coins back from Thom, while Rand saved his coin also. They probably saved everything for use at the Tar Valon inn, which is probably the safest place for them (within the walls of Tar Valon, which is a very hard nut to crack for Trollocs, and yet outside the view of Aes Sedai). If Basel Gill is anything like in the books, he could also have givem them a discount (though Rand wasn't much impressed with it, if so).

It does look like Liandrin and Elaida may be combined. The Amyrlin was coming back from Caemlyn (quite possibly, with Elayne in tow), which suggests that Elaida may not be there if the Amyrlin takes care of that personally. In that case, Liandrin may not be black in the show. Alviarin is best kept separately.

Siuan and Moiraine are probably working together, but hiding it in public. Siuan would probably approve whatever plan Moiraine has.

6 hours ago, Maia said:

Valda seems to have a ter'angreal like Mat's foxhead or maybe whatever Cadsuane had if it didn't require channeling. I guess that his victims didn't figure out alternative courses of action quickly enough when their weaves failed against him. And that he didn't move against Moiraine because Lan was right there, prepared to cut him down and he also suspected Egwene of being a second AS with warders. Once it became clear that she was not, he pegged her for a novice recruit, which is why he was so casual with her and gave her so much leeway.

It's possible, Valda did seem very confident Egwene couldn't hurt him, maybe much like Matt in the books (until he realises there are ways around the foxhead medallion).

I also suspect that he realised Moiraine was very likely an Aes Sedai, but that he is also quite cowardly (or prudent) and he didn't think he would survive a fight (Lan was very close to him) and the Whitecloaks might loose the battle. At least Rand and Perrin must have looked like potential fighters as well, with Egwene and Nynaeve being potential channelers. And that assesment wouldn't even be far from the truth.

As for Logain, it is quite possible he does see ta'veren and he was looking at both Matt and Rand. The former, because of the influence of the dagger, feels himself more targeted by Logain's laugh than Rand does.

Episode 5 was less good than 4, with a bit too much emphasis on Steppin. I liked the portrayal of Loial, who was well acted and has the right lines so far.

As for Nynaeve, like many here I also think she channeled already in her story about Egwene nearly dying. They did oversell Egwene's steely qualities though, showing it with Valda and telling about it with Nynaeve as well. I like the portrayal of Nyneave, though, the book character needed some toning down.

Padan Fain was briefly half visible, when the boys entered the inn.

I think next episode will be better, with the Amyrlin coming home and the gang leaving TV again.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Can’t believe some of you are complaining about the Stepin storyline when the Velda Egwene one exists. :P 

I did find it odd the amount of time they devoted to a Warder’s grief journey but I’m happy to let them tell the story they want to, I’ll judge at the end if it was worth it. It seemed to me like they just wanted something for Rosamund and Daniel to do as much as anything. Lan was already clearly a different character from the books so didn’t even blink at him letting rip with the anguished howling.

The Valda thing, on the other hand, was utter nonsense. What, Valda kidnaps and tortures all women with male companions the light brings before his eyes twice?? He either meets very few women or he’s a very busy boy.

On the whole I was probably more disappointed by that episode than any of the others, even if there might have been more objective problems in the first couple.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

50 minutes ago, IFR said:

But I would take an early GoT approach to adapting this any day. If only. GoT adapted the first book virtually scene for scene. There was some stuff added and some stuff taken out, but for the most part it was very loyal to the book. A lot of lines were verbatim from the book.

With WoT, it's shocking when there is a scene from the book in the show. It's almost entirely original material. And I think (though I'm not sure) that the Manetheren speech and Loial's lines were some of the few bits of dialog from the book used in the show. And they were both used in a pretty different context.

I do wonder if it'll be the reverse in the show, though. That they'll add more iconic lines in later seasons, because EotW is rather short on them..more a hope than a thought, this.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 minutes ago, Wouter said:

It does look like Liandrin and Elaida may be combined. The Amyrlin was coming back from Caemlyn (quite possibly, with Elayne in tow), which suggests that Elaida may not be there if the Amyrlin takes care of that personally. In that case, Liandrin may not be black in the show. Alviarin is best kept separately.

Siuan and Moiraine are probably working together, but hiding it in public. Siuan would probably approve whatever plan Moiraine has.

I also suspect that he realised Moiraine was very likely an Aes Sedai, but that he is also quite cowardly (or prudent) and he didn't think he would survive a fight (Lan was very close to him) and the Whitecloaks might loose the battle. At least Rand and Perrin must have looked like potential fighters as well, with Egwene and Nynaeve being potential channelers. And that assesment wouldn't even be far from the truth.

I disagree that Liandrin and Elaida would be a good smash-up. Of the two, Elaida is the bigger character, so they should have just named her Elaida from the beginning. Liandrin is not an important character on her own, she just gets things moving. Merging her early threat into a longer term threat seems more logical to me, plus they have more in common whereas Elaida is just misguided.

Oh I think S&M are working together too, obviously, but I still think the girls will have to be snuck out of the Tower (maybe with Siuan's help) because there is no good reason to let them go from anyone else's perspective.

Nyneave wasn't with them at the time, but otherwise, yeah. I think Valda knew/suspected but is also smart enough to pick and chose his battles. It's still pretty wonky what he's doing, but it's not completely off the rails.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, IFR said:

CW is an American network that specializes in producing extremely bland programming that is designed for 14 year olds. The shows have a reputation for being mindless, generic, extremely campy, and generally nonsensical.

I think the most famous CW show is Rivervale. There's also The Flash, Batwoman, and Supergirl, among others. Generally the shows have all the quality of background noise - inoffensive and forgettable.

Yeah, this show is nothing like that CW crap.

This thread is a reminder why it was probably a good decision to park the rest of the Expanse books whilst it's on telly.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, john said:

 

The Valda thing, on the other hand, was utter nonsense. What, Valda kidnaps and tortures all women with male companions the light brings before his eyes twice?? He either meets very few women or he’s a very busy boy.

To be fair, there are Whitecloaks who get convinced someone is a Darkfriend on nearly as thin grounds. Bornhald Jr. is certainly convinced about as easily.

Of course, mistaking someone for Aes Sedai isn't an issue in the books. Aes Sedai have the ageless look, there. But it'd be consistent for Whitecloaks to assume a woman can channel on equally thin grounds.

The issue is more that he success, and the way he lets her channel. That was just dumb.

Bad as that scene was on the whole, though, I felt Madden for the first time convinced me she'd be a good Egwene in the later seasons. She does steely resolve well, and she's gonna have to do a lot of that in the later seasons if the show manages to survive that long. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Gertrude said:

I disagree that Liandrin and Elaida would be a good smash-up. Of the two, Elaida is the bigger character, so they should have just named her Elaida from the beginning. Liandrin is not an important character on her own, she just gets things moving. Merging her early threat into a longer term threat seems more logical to me, plus they have more in common whereas Elaida is just misguided.

I'd agree that they should have named the Liandrin character Elaida if she is going to play the Elaida role ... but it still seems she will play roughly that role. She is very much established as the Red leader and one of the most powerful Aes Sedai aside from, apparently, Moiraine and Siuan.

They still could have her as a Black Ajah, but she will never play the role Liandrin had in book 2-3. And to my knowledge, Liandrin is basically a burned/not very important character after book 3.

@fionwe1987

Back to the thing from the last thread:

I think the point about the Dark One being free/imprisoned is that there is only one Dark One and one Creator beyond space and time. The Bore (in those worlds were it exists, that is) has to be imagined as a tunnel with one end at the Dark One's prison and an infinite number of ends for the infinite number of worlds where the moron Aes Sedai created their Bores.

And if the good guys succeed in one world and seal the Bore they do not just close their end of the tunnel but they also close the Dark One's prison itself. They close his end of the tunnel as well. And that's why he is imprisoned in all worlds if he is imprisoned in one.

Vice versa, if the Dark One is free in one world he will unmake this world as well as all the others in existence because that's what people believe he can do.

And of course a free Dark One doesn't just mean the end of the world but the retroactive annihilation (or recreation) of existence - which means you and your world won't just be destroyed ... they will never have existed.

As for the Forsaken:

Didn't they sell their souls to the Dark One and that's why he can bring them back after their deaths? If the Dragon ever did that, wouldn't then his soul the Dark One's like he owns, say, the souls of Lanfear and Ishamael?

In fact, aren't all the Darkfriends bound to the Dark One in a similar manner? It might be that he cannot really collect their souls while he is (sort of) sealed away, so perhaps you can get off the hook somehow, but the Forsaken clearly had no choice.

The reason why I think we cannot really accept or assume the Dragon ever joined the Dark One 'properly' (i.e. in the way the Forsaken did) is (1) that the Dark One was never freed (and we can assume that the Dragon fighting for the Shadow should have freed him), and (2) that the Dark One doesn't control the Dragon's soul ... like he controls those of the Forsaken.

As for the Dark One's time perception:

I think it doesn't make sense that the Dark One is outside of space and time but is imagined as perceiving time only in a linear fashion through the Bore. He is beyond space and time in his prison and at his end he shouldn't watch a movie of things unfolding in the various realities he touches but rather a picture which includes all events in time he can perceive, i.e. everything from the opening to the closing of the Bore.

The idea that balefire kind of messes with that just doesn't fit very well with the general nature of the Dark One.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

31 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

 

@fionwe1987

Back to the thing from the last thread

No thanks. If you think you can confidently spout declarations about the philosophical underpinnings of the series based on reading 3 books and some wiki entries, more power to you. I think I've proven conclusively to myself that you're not engaged in any kind of honest critique of anything here, so I'm done engaging. 

***

About Liandrin... I think it is clear to me the person she's being merged with is Galina. Perhaps Alviarin. There's nothing about her indicating Elaida. She doesn't have the Foretelling. She's got almost nothing of Elaida's personality, and we've seen no hints of antipathy to Siuan, which makes no sense if they're going to have this character be the one that becomes Amyrlin after illegally stilling Siuan. 

Even her interaction with Moiraine seems mild and pleasant. Apart from not naming her Elaida, which definitely would have made more sense, stripping all of Elaida's personality and abilities makes little sense.

The "charm" of Elaida is how almost comically wrong she is on a few issues that have the greatest importance. She's so blinded by her megalomania that she cannot think objectively, and despite having Fortellings that could have placed her right close to Rand if she'd thought them through, she spent all her energy doing completely useless things. And this continues in her tenure. I have no idea why they'd remove that aspect of her character, no matter what name the person occupying that role has in the show. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I understand that enjoying/hating a TV series is a very subjective thing. And that purists would prefer an adaptation that's more faithful to the source material and the author's vision, while others are happy with this progressive version which features a lot of diversity, etc. As such, everyone's mileage will vary and that's the way love goes.

But the quality of the writing and the dialogue are approaching the fanfic level of the dumpster fires that were the last 2 seasons of GoT. Despite this being another turning of the Wheel, there's no getting around that. :unsure:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

46 minutes ago, Lord Patrek said:

I understand that enjoying/hating a TV series is a very subjective thing. And that purists would prefer an adaptation that's more faithful to the source material and the author's vision, while others are happy with this progressive version which features a lot of diversity, etc. As such, everyone's mileage will vary and that's the way love goes.

I love how you try to make it that the show isn't good because it is progressive. As if the one has anything to do with the other. 

46 minutes ago, Lord Patrek said:

But the quality of the writing and the dialogue are approaching the fanfic level of the dumpster fires that were the last 2 seasons of GoT. Despite this being another turning of the Wheel, there's no getting around that. :unsure:

Indeed. It is definitely bordering that for me too. But you seem to have ascribed additional causation to this that isn't based on any evidence.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

I love how you try to make it that the show isn't good because it is progressive. As if the one has anything to do with the other. 

Indeed. It is definitely bordering that for me too. But you seem to have ascribed additional causation to this that isn't based on any evidence.

Unless you have your head in the sand, perusal of any message boards or online venues will show you that this doesn't sit well with a good chunk of WoT fandom. And I'm not even talking about the Whitecloaks on Reddit and other such fucktards.

Production is often trying too hard with the more progressive elements, especially those that differentiate this series from WoT. How many times do you have to talk about Allanah and her many Warders (wink-wink)?

As you know, I had problems with the casting from the get-go because I would have preferred a more faithful adaptation. Having said that, with atrocious lines and questionable storytelling, even actors/actresses that fit RJ's vision would look bad with such scripts. :(

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yo, it's straight garbage.

Why have we gotten more character development for this dumbo gaidin who tells stories instead of scouting than any two of the main characters?

And then he dies before I'm done exclaiming!?! The Fuck???

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 minutes ago, Lord Patrek said:

Unless you have your head in the sand, perusal of any message boards or online venues will show you that this doesn't sit well with a good chunk of WoT fandom. And I'm not even talking about the Whitecloaks on Reddit and other such fucktards.

Production is often trying too hard with the more progressive elements, especially those that differentiate this series from WoT. How many times do you have to talk about Allanah and her many Warders (wink-wink)?

As you know, I had problems with the casting from the get-go because I would have preferred a more faithful adaptation. Having said that, with atrocious lines and questionable storytelling, even actors/actresses that fit RJ's vision would look bad with such scripts. :(

You're unable to separate the fact that there is personal preference, like how diverse the show should be. You're allowed to have those, and express those, even though they smell like rotten fish. I vehemently disagree with the idea that RJ's vision had anything to do with lack of diversity, but hey, if that's what you perceive, so be it.

The issue I have is with you thinking having the opposite perspective to yours is the cause  of bad writing and dialogue, or whatever "secular" critiques there may be about the show, which are independent of your stance on issues like diversity. 

The Expanse is a diverse speculative fiction series. It does very well in aspects like pace, sensible changes to source material, even CGI than WoT is currently doing. It definitely helps that the authors of the books are part of the writing.

But imagine for a moment that the same cast was hired, but RJ was alive and consulting on the scripts, and was helping them cut the story the right way for the screen. Are you telling me the show would definitely have been bad, because it hired a diverse cast and tried to foreground the most modern, distinct and interesting parts of RJ's world building? 

If you think that, you show that it isn't exactly RJ's vision that you don't think is being respected. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Really shallow graves. Just feeding the wildlife I suppose.

Loial brought to mind the Beast from the live action Beauty and the Beast from a few years ago.

Dang it Egwene. Practice your stabbing.

I barely restrained myself from explaining to the non book reader I’m watching with why Logain started laughing maniacally when he saw Mat and Rand. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, A True Kaniggit said:

Really shallow graves. Just feeding the wildlife I suppose.

Loial brought to mind the Beast from the live action Beauty and the Beast from a few years ago.

I did think that about the graves but then I figured they were so very shallow that maybe it was for a reason (that wasn't explained, mind you).

I also agree on Loial. It was like time travelling back to a network show from the 90s.

I will continue to watch because, overall, I think it is alright. In a 6 out 10 kind of way. But they have made some choices that, in my mind, needlessly cheapens the show.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...