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The Wheel of Time: Jane Farstrider Herself (Book Spoilers)


Ran

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4 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

You're unable to separate the fact that there is personal preference, like how diverse the show should be. You're allowed to have those, and express those, even though they smell like rotten fish. I vehemently disagree with the idea that RJ's vision had anything to do with lack of diversity, but hey, if that's what you perceive, so be it.

The issue I have is with you thinking having the opposite perspective to yours is the cause  of bad writing and dialogue, or whatever "secular" critiques there may be about the show, which are independent of your stance on issues like diversity. 

The Expanse is a diverse speculative fiction series. It does very well in aspects like pace, sensible changes to source material, even CGI than WoT is currently doing. It definitely helps that the authors of the books are part of the writing.

But imagine for a moment that the same cast was hired, but RJ was alive and consulting on the scripts, and was helping them cut the story the right way for the screen. Are you telling me the show would definitely have been bad, because it hired a diverse cast and tried to foreground the most modern, distinct and interesting parts of RJ's world building? 

If you think that, you show that it isn't exactly RJ's vision that you don't think is being respected. 

One of my favorite TV shows ever is The Wire. I have absolutely nothing against minorities and that show showcase amazing talents across the board. 

There are plenty of people of colors in WoT, just not among the leads. This goes against RJ's vision, for they are not even close to any of the books' descriptions (other than for Rand and Mat). The same way I don't want actors/actresses to be whitewashed to generate more interest if series/movies, I also would like adaptation to be faithful to the source material. 

Which is why I love the fact that basically 99% of the most important characters in The Wire are black. But I would have been against making the Starks people of color in the HBO adaptation of GoT because they were always meant to be white. Diversity works in The Expanse because it's an important part of the books. No argument there.

If RJ was still among us and was 100% behind the changes and happy with them, then no one could say that the TV series goes against his vision. But he's not and Judkins is calling the shots and making those decisions.

Trying to be progressive and show diversity does hurt the show because it sometimes feel like they ascribe more importance to those elements than on writing, you know, a good, cohesive, and entertaining story.

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10 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

The Expanse is a diverse speculative fiction series. It does very well in aspects like pace, sensible changes to source material, even CGI than WoT is currently doing. It definitely helps that the authors of the books are part of the writing.

I agree with the gist of your argument but to me there is a distinct difference between how the two shows handle it. In The Expanse the diversity does not feel like diversity if that makes any sense. It just feels right and proper there. I just never think about it while watching the show.

I do not think that's the case with WOT where it feels a bit forced, clunky and for the sake of it. Which makes me notice it.

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7 minutes ago, Lord Patrek said:

Trying to be progressive and show diversity does hurt the show because it sometimes feel like they ascribe more importance to those elements than on writing, you know, a good, cohesive, and entertaining story.

You know, I'm sure there are people for whom having to show diversity, or think progressively would be a burden that cuts down creativity and harms their art. 

But I think you're assuming that has to be true for everyone. There is no necessary contradiction between a diverse, progressive story and a good, cohesive entertaining story. You're just assuming there is. 

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3 minutes ago, sologdin said:

what about the narrative requires specific racialization of the cast? it's not like it's othello, calling specific attention in the plot to the race differential. 

The sole race differencial that matters is that Rand is distinctly more fair skinned than his adopted land of Two Rivers. Racial or ethnic markers don't play much of a role in the story, otherwise.

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Yeah the show hasn't said jack about the races of any character other than Rand, anything being brought into it is either the meta conversation or your own feelings.

And I'm pretty sure the guy acting like depicting a couple of warders as bisexual is somehow an affront to Jordan's vision has nothing against any minorities, look he liked the wire!

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The skin colors of these characters have nothing to do with the dismal product on display. 

Bad writing. Terrible creative choices. Not great acting, though I'm loathe to be too hard on the actors because the people running this show have no idea what they're doing and it's probably a ramshackle work environment. 

That was terrible.

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1 hour ago, Lord Patrek said:

Unless you have your head in the sand, perusal of any message boards or online venues will show you that this doesn't sit well with a good chunk of WoT fandom. And I'm not even talking about the Whitecloaks on Reddit and other such fucktards.

Production is often trying too hard with the more progressive elements, especially those that differentiate this series from WoT. How many times do you have to talk about Allanah and her many Warders (wink-wink)?

As you know, I had problems with the casting from the get-go because I would have preferred a more faithful adaptation. Having said that, with atrocious lines and questionable storytelling, even actors/actresses that fit RJ's vision would look bad with such scripts. :(

Oh for the love of CROM, fuck of with this nonsense. If anything the diverse casting is one of the few bright spots. Anyone still complaining about that crap needs to sit themselves down and have a real hard think about why it upsets them so. 

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Schlock. Pure schlock. I thought I was being hard on the show at work earlier, saying it was like season 8. May the light illumine me, that was horrible. Just horrible. What the hell is this Judkins character thinking??? Who is running this clown car company? You cut Caemlyn, the MAIN CHARACTER MEETING THE PRINCESS, and the badass Elaida Sedai, so that you can focus on two characters who do not survive as many episodes!??

And what's with all the hocus pocus rituals? Everybody's got a ritual! Why?? Five minutes of each episode, at least, is structured around some stupid ceremony that they made up. Which is fine, I guess, if the characters are actually gonna get developed instead of fluttering along with nothing to do.

And if you're writing a story how in the hell do you not present Nynaeve as at least maybe being interested in the Reds? I'm not saying that fits the character, but you keep structuring scenes and dialogue around the possibility that she would go red, while everything about the character screams (as it should) that she would never do that. This completely eliminates any tension from Liandrin trying to recruit her, or explain why she might be more red than Moiraine thinks. Which means you're wasting my fucking time by bringing it up after that initial conversation, where it's appropriately treated as a joke. Who is writing this!?! Why? Why are they writing it like they've never seen a TV before? 

The sets look good. The CGI is good. I even think y'all are being hard on the Loial. But the story is just terrible. 

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I'm glad they cut Caemlyn from the show at this point. It can be written around, so go for it. I am not sad we're not getting their meet-cute because it was overly contrived. Blah blah, ta'veren, blah blah crush. I wanted an overhaul of the books and I am getting it and I couldn't be happier that they are cutting sacred cows left and right. This is the adaptation I wanted.

Is it perfect? No. It's rough. It's improving though and I don't think it's bad on it's own. Is it like the books? Roughly. That's good enough for me, because I've never understood the copious amounts of praise the books got anyway. They were ok.

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Trying to be progressive and show diversity does hurt the show because it sometimes feel like they ascribe more importance to those elements than on writing, you know, a good, cohesive, and entertaining story.

People say that, but I've never seen it backed up with examples.

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I truly don't mind about the diversity in the show. I've heard some people say it makes the world confusing, but, come on. No it doesn't. I watched Braveheart with my son awhile back, and it was shocking to see a film with such a huge cast and so many extras that were all white. 

In fantasy world, give people a color a chance.

That said, I'm not convinced at all by any of the actors except Rosamund Pike--who is amazing. The rest are wooden, and their characters are "frustrated" or "angry." Who is Rand? Or Mat? Or Perrin and Egwene? Worst of all, why is Nynaeve so wooden and emotionless.

I can't say I like any of the characters in this show. The Tinkers and their costumes looked like a high school production forced to borrow their parents' old hippy clothes. 

And I have no clear memory of what's happened over the last five episodes. It's just a blur of a lot of nothing happening.

Fantasy is hard to do. I think I'll support the show by turning it on in the background when I'm not watching. 

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Dawg, I'm not mad they changed stuff. I'm mad the show is terrible. I'm watching with someone who hasn't read the books and he doesn't know anything about any of the characters except Nynaeve heals, Perrin killed his wife, and Egwene got brush raped. 

Because of this imbecilic urge to make the Dragon a mystery you've somehow managed to go 5 episodes and the most clearly defined characters are a red sister not named Elaida and a gaidin who is dead. 

Is that supposed to be a shield from criticism? That they made fundamental changes to the story somehow exempts them from an expectation that the material presented be of a pleasing calibre? What the hell kind of standard is that?

 

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I'm just so confused by people seeing Nynaeve as emotionless, she comes across as highly emotional and the actress as quite emotive to me. It's got me wondering if there's something in Aus&NZ acting coaching that doesn't read well to other audiences or something because there's plenty of you that aren't getting something from her performance which Brook and I are.

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1 hour ago, Centrist Simon Steele said:

I watched Braveheart with my son awhile back, and it was shocking to see a film with such a huge cast and so many extras that were all white. 

I mean, it's a historical drama set in medieval Scotland and England... Were you shocked by all the black Zulus in Shaka Zulu as well? 

I get your point about fantasy worlds, but am a bit confused about how Braveheart gets roped into it. If you had said The Lord of the Rings, that would make a bit more sense, fantasy to fantasy. The difference between LotR and WoT was that the former seems to have tried to strongly adhere to the world building of its 19th-century-born author and the latter has re-envisioned chunks of it to write what Jordan "hopefully" would have written if he had started writing in 2021 (. . .)

1 hour ago, Gertrude said:

This is the adaptation I wanted.

Is it perfect? No. It's rough.

Be careful what you wish for, I guess? Heh.

ETA: Speaking of diversity, the extras on costuming shows sort of how they decided to start with things: make the whole of the central region, from the Two Rivers to Tar Varlon and on into Cairhien, "Blood of all peoples", basically just a huge ethno-cultural melting pot, whereas the regions on the periphery -- the Borderlands, Arad Doman, Tarabon, Illian, Tear, etc. -- would have more distinctive cultural traits, if not necessarily ethnic by the looks of the casting for Shienar (which, weirdly, kept being misspelled by some assistant to the costumer as Shainar.)

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2 hours ago, karaddin said:

I'm just so confused by people seeing Nynaeve as emotionless, she comes across as highly emotional and the actress as quite emotive to me. It's got me wondering if there's something in Aus&NZ acting coaching that doesn't read well to other audiences or something because there's plenty of you that aren't getting something from her performance which Brook and I are.

I agree with you and I'm not from ANZ so can't be that.

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Not as good as the previous episode, but the focus on the Warder's pain of losing their Aes Sedai and Lan's pain at losing his friend was interesting.

The Perrin + Egwene torture scene didnt quite have the tension I think they were trying to go for, and the music was really weird and inappropriate. I don't think they did enough to set up Perrin's wolf connection either.

Still think the series has potential but there's something missing, at the moment it still feels like a generic fantasy series.

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4 hours ago, Babblebauble said:

Schlock. Pure schlock. I thought I was being hard on the show at work earlier, saying it was like season 8. May the light illumine me, that was horrible. Just horrible. What the hell is this Judkins character thinking??? Who is running this clown car company? You cut Caemlyn, the MAIN CHARACTER MEETING THE PRINCESS, and the badass Elaida Sedai, so that you can focus on two characters who do not survive as many episodes!??

And what's with all the hocus pocus rituals? Everybody's got a ritual! Why?? Five minutes of each episode, at least, is structured around some stupid ceremony that they made up. Which is fine, I guess, if the characters are actually gonna get developed instead of fluttering along with nothing to do.

 

I think a reaction like this illustrates why it can be good to be informed beforehand on a TV adaptation of a book. I learned about Caemlyn being dropped early on, IIRC before the first trailer even. And the reason it was dropped is simple: they lacked the budget and had to choose between, say, portraying Shadar Logoth and Tar Valon (as Werthead remarked probably with the same set) or portraying Caemlyn and Whitebridge.

I do think it's a shame, I wanted more of Rand and Matt and Thom travelling and to get the Caemlyn scenes of the book, but that it wasn't possible isn't because Judkins would be a clown but because he didn't have the money (and time, probably) to film it all.

It's good to learn and speculate in advance about what could be/will be changed, and what the consequences would be.

I do agree that the rituals are over the top in the show, starting with the nonsensical (and inappropriate for book-Two Rivers) and dangerous Women's Circle ritual. IIRC it was stated somewhere that one of the Amazon notes was asking Judkins to tone it down on that front, so hopefully less rituals in S2. To be fair, the books loved their rituals as well.

The funeral of Kerene and the others (like the King of Ghealdean) was fine though.

4 hours ago, Gertrude said:

I'm glad they cut Caemlyn from the show at this point. It can be written around, so go for it. I am not sad we're not getting their meet-cute because it was overly contrived. Blah blah, ta'veren, blah blah crush. I wanted an overhaul of the books and I am getting it and I couldn't be happier that they are cutting sacred cows left and right. This is the adaptation I wanted.

 

I agree with the general sentiment (the general idea of WOT and parts of the books are very good, and I don't think the series is near as derivative as people tend to say, but the books do have a lot of weak points that could stand some change), but the Caemlyn scene is a favourite of mine. The mutual Rand-Elayne crush was the most believable part of their relationship, and it was a memorable scene with Elaida in there as well. Contrived? Ok, but if we accept the concept of ta'veren it is perfectly in line with the world of WOT. The scene was also a nice way to introduce Elayne as a princess, before she was re-introduced as a novice from Egwene's POV. It makes it clear that Elayne adapts quite easily to her circumstances.

I hope the introduction of Elayne in the show will also leave an impression.

About Liandrin and Elaida: I'm not necessarily in favour of a potential merge, but it looks like it is a possibility. Liandrin does act differently than in the books and is far more prominent, so if she is not merged with Elaida than at least with Galina, it seems. However, the mention that the Amyrlin is coming up from Caemlyn - with Alanna not even mentioning that Elaida is accompanying her - seems a warning light for me. Is Elaida really needed, given they could potentially drop things like her foretelling? Or could Liandrin-new style take over Elaida's tower plot?

The books didn't do much with the pre-existing connection between Elayne and Elaida, for example.

2 hours ago, Ran said:

I mean, it's a historical drama set in medieval Scotland and England... Were you shocked by all the black Zulus in Shaka Zulu as well? 

I get your point about fantasy worlds, but am a bit confused about how Braveheart gets roped into it. If you had said The Lord of the Rings, that would make a bit more sense, fantasy to fantasy. The difference between LotR and WoT was that the former seems to have tried to strongly adhere to the world building of its 19th-century-born author and the latter has re-envisioned chunks of it to write what Jordan "hopefully" would have written if he had started writing in 2021 (. . .)

 

Very good point about Braveheart, there is nothing shocking in the population of medieval Scotland and England being white.

As for Lord of the Rings, it's still a valid decision if they want to make their fantasy world the way Tolkien probably meant it, since he was a product of his time and of his country/environment. Just as it is fine for Judkins to emphasise the diversity in the WOT universe a bit, arguably beyond what RJ intended (though RJ was admittedly suitably vague so interpretation is possible).

What do you think about black Velaryons, Ran?

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A note:

If people can't be civil, we don't really need to have this thread, folks, and you can find some other place to talk about the show.

@Wouter

Already remarked on it when the casting was announced. It's not ASoIaF canon whatsoever, of course, but the show has its own canon, the Velaryons were never mentioned outside of animated extras, and HBO can do as they please with it. Given reports of the first actor considered for the role (it was not Touissant), it seems fairly clear they settled on making the Velaryons racially different from the Targaryens and much of the rest of the cast from the outset of the project, which happens to fall in line with what we know of how other successor projects in development were casting in relation to GoT. So to some degree it seems like there was a corporate mandate, or at least a suggestion, to potential show runners.

But, again, HotD is its own thing, and the problems they create in regards to the canon going forward or backward is something they'll have to sort out somehow. Or not, they can just ignore them.

 

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