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The Wheel of Time: Jane Farstrider Herself (Book Spoilers)


Ran

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1 hour ago, Ran said:

I agree he's more "likeable" -- like, he's a guy you'd want to have a drink with in a bar -- but in return he loses a lot of his mystery, the thing that set him apart from the other characters and all. By making him more approachable, you bring him down to earth, basically, and he starts to feel more like just another guy rather than someone who exists on the sort of heroic or epic scale that he does in the books.

I don't really think that the show's portrayal of Lan is all that at odds with who he is in the books, just that we're seeing other sides of him much earlier by virtue of him being a part of the main cast of an ensemble show and needing to actually... act, rather than just hang around and be a silent, stoic cypher (and then have a romance announced with another character whose PoV we rarely see that apparently developed off screen come out of nowhere). In The Eye of the World we only really see glimpses of him through the eyes of Rand, and he's very much "on mission" the entire time with there being an ongoing sense of urgency to the adventure, but that's just not going to work in the format of the show, and as early as book two we see him taking on a more nurturing role with his training of Rand. We see more of him later with his relationship with Nynaeve, and in New Spring, and hear how liked and respected he is among the warders.

Aside from not giving his actor anything to work with and opening him and the show up to criticisms of being wooden or giving him no material the other issue with directly reflecting his book persona is that I just don't know how you could sensibly portray the supernatural/anime feats of swordsmanship he (and other blademasters) are capable of in a live action format, and that is a large part of who he is and how our bumpkin protagonists see and are in awe of him. Honestly I'm kinda glad that the show dodged falling in to the traps that befall many a new D&D player - people love reading about those stoic, silent, edgy, mysterious types with an "aura of danger" and little hints of their dark and troubles past and all that but it doesn't actually translate off the page in a fun or interesting way.

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16 minutes ago, Poobah said:

rather than just hang around and be a silent, stoic cypher

Worked for Mifune, Eastwood, Bronson, Marvin, et al.

There's something to peeling back the layers slowly rather than front-loading things, IMO.

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31 minutes ago, A True Kaniggit said:

That or the pregnancy issue. (I thought Laila was pregnant, others think Laila was barren)

I do wonder if the original cut of the first episode would have made it clearer that Laila was either pregnant or barren, and they decided afterwards that was too much (and maybe a bit too Red Wedding) and cut out all references to the situation, which meant cutting 90% of her lines and characterisation.

1 hour ago, Centrist Simon Steele said:

To clarify my point--media has done such an excellent job in diversifying casts that to go back and see Braveheart was just surprising. I'm not casting judgment on it. I wouldn't expect an historical account like this to necessarily cast for diversity (though if it did, I would be fine with that decision), and this is what my son and I actually talked about. Would making an historical film about a completely white culture, in an era where people of color are starting to find equal representation in film, be a good choice at all? I'm speaking specifically about big studio projects.

To be clear, I love Braveheart, but my point is that media has done a serviceable enough job in being more inclusive that an all white cast just stood out to me.

Braveheart is, in many respects, ahistorical bullshit of the highest order (albeit entertainingly-made ahistorical bullshit) with only the most tenuous of links to the real historical facts. On that basis I don't see how having black actors showing up would have been any more jarring than omitting the bridge from the Battle of Stirling Bridge or implying that Wallace had an affair with Isabella or showing everyone in kilts 300 years before they were a thing.

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14 minutes ago, Werthead said:

n that basis I don't see how having black actors showing up

Most people know fuck all about the history behind Braveheart, but they know there weren't black Scotsmen or English knights. Just as they know there weren't Asian Zulus. It's a suspension of disbelief issue in a film that presents the illusion of historicity to the majority of the audience. 

Things like The Great are great fun, cast diversely without giving a damn, and at the same time basically tells you it's not really history at the start so you just get to enjoy the antic without ever going, "Wait, hang on, that definitely didn't happen." 

 

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5 minutes ago, Ran said:

Worked for Mifune, Eastwood, Bronson, Marvin, et al.

There's something to peeling back the layers slowly rather than front-loading things, IMO.

I enjoy that Lan feels a little more fleshed out early in the story, but I think some of the “emotional development credibility” story time could have gone to some of the other main characters, and left Lan as inscrutable as they seem to be leaving Moiraine so far - his past is a big reveal, with a lot of backstory, that seems like you could use as a plot twist, or as an info dump flashback.  

Periodically, as we’ve watched these, my partner will turn to me and ask “Wait, why am I supposed to care about this character?”, to tease me, and I’ll have to launch into their backstory…it feels like the story so far is spread really thin amongst the characters.  I liked the mourning scene because it took some time to tell the story well and with enough depth (didn’t have to explain it to my partner), but thought it an odd choice.

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1 minute ago, VigoTheCarpathian said:

left Lan as inscrutable as they seem to be leaving Moiraine so far

Really good point here. They very much are making Moiraine very mysterious, so this idea that it's forced by the ensemble nature of the show strikes me as clearly wrong. it's a choice they made.

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18 minutes ago, Werthead said:

I do wonder if the original cut of the first episode would have made it clearer that Laila was either pregnant or barren, and they decided afterwards that was too much (and maybe a bit too Red Wedding) and cut out all references to the situation, which meant cutting 90% of her lines and characterisation.

Braveheart is, in many respects, ahistorical bullshit of the highest order (albeit entertainingly-made ahistorical bullshit) with only the most tenuous of links to the real historical facts. On that basis I don't see how having black actors showing up would have been any more jarring than omitting the bridge from the Battle of Stirling Bridge or implying that Wallace had an affair with Isabella or showing everyone in kilts 300 years before they were a thing.

Ha, I've heard this, and I thought about mentioning it. I remember reading up on the real story years ago and thinking, "Hm, that was...underwhelming (compared to the movie)."

I agree with you that it wouldn't matter if they diversified the cast--it's essentially fantasy at this point. 

Hamilton did a this and it really worked well.

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1 minute ago, Centrist Simon Steele said:

Hamilton did a this and it really worked well.

The racial casting of Hamilton was literally the point of the project, though. Extremely different kind of project than Braveheart.

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31 minutes ago, Ran said:

Most people know fuck all about the history behind Braveheart, but they know there weren't black Scotsmen or English knights. Just as they know there weren't Asian Zulus. It's a suspension of disbelief issue in a film that presents the illusion of historicity to the majority of the audience. 

I agree with you about what knowledge people watching would bring to Brave heart. But I'm not exactly clear why that means it's good to reinforce their lack of knowledge. When you perpetuate the idea that historical accuracy of race/ethnicity is more critical than other things, aren't you reinforcing that same ignorance? 

Now, if the argument is that's what sells, fair enough. But that's not a critical choice but a commercial one.

31 minutes ago, Ran said:

 

 

23 minutes ago, Ran said:

Really good point here. They very much are making Moiraine very mysterious, so this idea that it's forced by the ensemble nature of the show strikes me as clearly wrong. it's a choice they made.

She's not as much of a cypher either, though. She's way more caring and human on the show than in the books.

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5 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

But I'm not exactly clear why that means it's good to reinforce their lack of knowledge.

I didn't have any say in the making of Braveheart, so I'm not sure what you mean by this. I wish I had though, I'd be pretty wealthy! 

Now, if they introduced a Muslim character who had been part of some merchant business in France who ended up taking off and becoming William Wallace's sidekick, could have worked, and some people might even believe it was based on actual history! But no one has to pretend the character is an Englishman or Scotsman or Irishman then, because you explain where they come from. (Worked for Robin Hood, Prince of Thieves, right?)

On The Wheel of Time, they basically just erased any reference to the Two Rivers being isolated or that its people tend to look a certain way, so only book readers know they changed anything.  But imagine if they had said it was this particularly isolated place, and its people all tended to look a certain way because of that isolation... while casting the leads and extras just as they did. People who knew only the show would struggle to suspend disbelief when they see two contradictory ideas put together.  So they didn't. The Two Rivers is just a nice, cosmopolitan place populated by the blood of all nations. 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Ran said:

I agree he's more "likeable" -- like, he's a guy you'd want to have a drink with in a bar -- but in return he loses a lot of his mystery, the thing that set him apart from the other characters and all. By making him more approachable, you bring him down to earth, basically, and he starts to feel more like just another guy rather than someone who exists on the sort of heroic or epic scale that he does in the books.

Well I mean more than Lan in the book comes across as a bit of an arrogant dick, whereas the show's version of Lan is more compassionate. But I think the show's version still does have a mystique to him, like you can tell there's more going on there.

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I am honestly surprised that this forum is so negative about this show.  I feel like in general this board is typically pretty forgiving of middling sci-fi/fantasy. 

Adapting wheel of time means a ton of changes and cuts.  If you made a genuine page by page adaption of wot like a Dickens novel, it would be unwatchable.  Like...so bad.

Now, it's quite possible to cut a lot and still try to be as faithful as possible to wheel of time.  That is obviously not what they're doing here, but for me, I'm fine with that too because wheel of time has a lot of flaws that could be fixed or improved upon.  They are trying to do so.

Are they succeeding?  Debateable of course, but for the most part it's a solid B effort.  We'll see how it goes over time, but I'm enjoying this adaptation. Episode 1 was rough and I think the whitecloaks have been terrible, but other than that, this is pretty good entertainment.  I really liked the warder grieving ceremony.

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Looking back at the scene of Logain laughing, two interpretations seem possible:

-Logain was laughing at both Rand and Matt or even only at Rand, but due to his dagger-fueled paranoia Matt felt Logain was laughing specifically at him (this would be closest to the book equivalent)

-Logain wasn't laughing at all (some camera work suggests this; Logain is in his slump again in the first frame that doesn't have Matt's "paranoia filter" over it) and it was all in Matt's dagger-fueled imagination.

Which do we think is more likely?

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Just now, Wouter said:

-Logain was laughing at both Rand and Matt or even only at Rand, but due to his dagger-fueled paranoia Matt felt Logain was laughing specifically at him (this would be closest to the book equivalent)

This one.

Just now, Wouter said:

some camera work suggests this; Logain is in his slump again in the first frame that doesn't have Matt's "paranoia filter" over it

They have been very sloppy with continuity within scenes, as evidenced by the second scene of the first episode where the male channeler was flipping back and forth between slumped on all fours and upright on his knees. Wouldn't surprise me if this is another one of those.

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OK, I don't understand where the Perrin/Egwene thing is going or what it would add. I also agree that it's not clear that's what's happening in the show. I guess put an asterisk on that and see if it has any larger relevance?

As for Moiraine being more inscrutable than Lan, well, we've still got a few episodes left. I have a feeling that Moiraine will have some more humanizing moments coming up with Siuan arriving next episode. I also don't think they've stripped the mystery of Lan from him. I do think they need to give him more opportunities to be the dangerous warrior we know he is. We saw a glimpse of that in the first episode, and hopefully we see more in coming episodes. I do think they gave him some of that 'mystery' in his last talk with Stepin. Not as much as the books, but the books present him as a stereotype of the strong silent type. That's a trope that will resonate with some, but not all. I enjoy getting to know him, because I never felt that I knew him at all in the books, let alone understand what Nyneave saw in him. It's not that I am looking for romance in a story, but if it's presented, I at least would like to understand it so when I'm told to buy into it I can do so willingly. That's my take, anyway.

Another thing that occurred to me about the Stepin storyline. If we get the moment in the Eye of the World when Lan hesitates over protecting Moiraine or Nyneave, that is going to say a whole lot more knowing what a warder bond means for those involved. Enough to justify the time they gave it? Not on it's own, but there was quite a bit packed into that storyline.

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The latest ep was a bit of a miss for my wife and I.  The focus on Stepin, the warder bond, and an emotionally available Lan seemed like a bad use of screen time in S1.  It makes me think that they’ll rush toward the Nynaeve-Lan-Moraine triangle so they wanted to establish the source of conflict.

The Perrin-Egwene “tension” falls flat because Perrin is such a terrible actor.  It’s unfortunate that his voice and face seem incapable of any expression.  But they seem intent on creating a Perrin-Egwene-Ran triangle too for some drama, so they’re forcing it regardless.

On the plus side, skipping Caemlyn means we don’t have Elayne or Min yet, so perhaps the Rand harem storyline will be excised.

The Ogier worked fine.  Hopefully Matt will shrug off the dagger soon and return to the acting of the earlier episodes.  Moraine carries a lot of the plot arc, so they need to quickly reach the Moraine-Siuan plan to give some sense of purpose.  Otherwise the audience will feel they’re being asked to care about too many characters without any motivation.  Moraine-Lan-Nynaeve feels like the core of the show right now, with the others bumbling inconsequentially along in their wake.

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Egwene casting a fireball at Valda and it dying when it gets close to him suggests he must have a ter'angreal like the fox-head one.  It is at least consistent with him having one.

What if he's gone into the Tower of Genji to get it from the 'Finns?

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