The Wheel of Time: Jane Farstrider Herself (Book Spoilers)

[fionwe1987]

Agree on Egwene and Perrin. Seems clear they went to the Tower for Healing.

 

By the way, it wasn't just Rand who was sidelined. This episode had barely any Mat or Perrin either. But that's ok, I think, since spending time on Siuan, and her relationship with Moiraine, was crucial. I agree they did a good job capturing the sacrifice these two have made, and gave you a good sense of how they got started, tough I'm sure there is more to come.

[karaddin]

I think it again had some really good work with scenes serving multiple purposes. Siuan talking to Nynaeve resulting in Egwene being crestfallen isn't just funny and possibly seeds some resentment, but along with her eagerness it also is another display of her being fundamentally ambitious in stark contrast to Nynaeve. It's all character work that's going to be paying off for seasons.

[Gertrude]

6 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

So looks like they’ve made Siuan a Dreamer? How’s this going to intersect with the Wise Ones? The meeting spot with Moiraine was, I thought, the World of Dreams, or a vacuole, which is very similar. Gateways leading to either are a very plausible kind of ter’angreal, and likely not easy to move around.

I thought Siuan was a Dreamer too, but maybe not. There was a painting very similar to Moiraine's in Siuan's quarters. Same frame, couldn't make out the picture inside. Ishamael may be projecting those dreams to Siuan, but I'm not sure why she would trust them if she wasn't a Dreamer. But anyway, there is wiggle room. I liked that they found some time for them to be  completely private and not stealing moments in Siuan's office.

I really liked this episode. As karaddin said, Siuan and Moiraine really sold their story. You could feel the burden Siuan was carrying and how much she didn't want it and that cold open helped to sell it. Liandrin was quite bold in the Hall, wasn't she? Very curious about her man and his significance.

As for the Ways, perhaps there are a couple of ways they can be activated - channeling obviously. Maybe Ogier have their own way of activating them unique to their race that just hasn't been shown yet. I'm expecting (hoping) for more explanation as they travel. I need more Loial - he's really been an afterthought so far, moreso than in the books. I do love how quickly non-readers have taken to him though!

That's what's hardest for me in this adaptation - forgetting my book knowledge and just reminding myself to let them tell the story at their pace.

[Werthead]

Interesting that we got a glimpse of the Stone of Tear as well.

I think the first half of the episode was very strong with the Siuan/Moiraine stuff and the second half felt a bit rushed. We go from not knowing the Eye of the World exists to needing to get over there ASAP in about three seconds. It was pretty quick in the book as well, but there were at least multiple warnings guiding them in that direction. Also, it looks like you need to channel to use the Waygate, which is odd (unless there's a mode you can use them by channelling or an Ogier farting around with them), but does seem to suggest they are combining the Waygates and Portal Stones into one device.

Like losing Alex in The Expanse, the way they had to get rid of Mat was awkward AF, but they did the best with it they could. The continuity people did a good job with keeping everyone looking the same though (since the scenes of the gang reacting to Mat not coming through the gate were filmed six months after the scene of them entering the Waygate).

Not the best episode of the season though, as I thought #4 was stronger, but this might slot into second place.

[karaddin]

I wasn't sure if the pillar with lots of characters on it outside TV in episode 5 was meant to be a portal stone or not, so I'm not assuming those don't still exist separately.

I also don't think that Moiraine opening the way gate with channeling rules out other mechanisms for opening it which don't require channeling - just that it's one way to open it. She's got Loial coming along for something as well, whether it's navigation within, something to do with exiting or something else entirely she needed him for something.

[Myrddin]

1 hour ago, karaddin said:

I think it again had some really good work with scenes serving multiple purposes. Siuan talking to Nynaeve resulting in Egwene being crestfallen isn't just funny and possibly seeds some resentment, but along with her eagerness it also is another display of her being fundamentally ambitious in stark contrast to Nynaeve. It's all character work that's going to be paying off for seasons.

I loved that moment and laughed out loud. My wife missed the exchange, so the subtlety may be lost on non-book readers. Definitely solid character work in a small space.

Which is part of my frustration with the series. It feels like they linger too long on some moments (the audience with Siuan) and short change others (Mat's sickness, quick healing, and uncertainty of dagger's location?). I mean on the one hand, the flashback scene was really well done. Both actors did a great job selling the relationship and fear of discovery, until Siuan had no choice but to leave. However, with such a short season, it just highlights that we're not getting enough time with the EF5. 

[SpaceChampion]

8 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

Can't be. I don't see Moiraine keeping that quiet for any reason, because it's proof Liandrin is Black.

I thought the implication was he's her lover, but I think the truth will turn out to be he's a Darkfriend she works with, and the lover thing is a ruse.

You can't make both statements.  How would Moiraine somehow know the guy in the first case is a channeller turned to the Dark, but not know the "lover" in the second case is a darkfriend?

[SpaceChampion]

1 hour ago, Gertrude said:

As for the Ways, perhaps there are a couple of ways they can be activated - channeling obviously. Maybe Ogier have their own way of activating them unique to their race that just hasn't been shown yet. I'm expecting (hoping) for more explanation as they travel.

Or the White Tower doesn't want the nearby waygate used by Shadowspawn, so removed the tri-foil chora leaf key, making it only accessible by channeling.  The Tower is still in denial about the Black Ajah of course, as it will be most of the books.

[fionwe1987]

2 hours ago, karaddin said:

I think it again had some really good work with scenes serving multiple purposes. Siuan talking to Nynaeve resulting in Egwene being crestfallen isn't just funny and possibly seeds some resentment, but along with her eagerness it also is another display of her being fundamentally ambitious in stark contrast to Nynaeve. It's all character work that's going to be paying off for seasons.

That was amazing, yes. Initially it felt weird, and then I realized this is the first moment in the show when Egwene figures out Nynaeve can channel.

They did reduce both their strengths, not in raw terms, but in terms of how they compared to sisters in the Tower. In the books, Nynaeve is close to the strongest the Tower had ever had, whereas it is Elayne and Egwene who are the strongest in a thousand years.

2 hours ago, Gertrude said:

I thought Siuan was a Dreamer too, but maybe not. There was a painting very similar to Moiraine's in Siuan's quarters. Same frame, couldn't make out the picture inside. Ishamael may be projecting those dreams to Siuan, but I'm not sure why she would trust them if she wasn't a Dreamer. But anyway, there is wiggle room. I liked that they found some time for them to be  completely private and not stealing moments in Siuan's office.

The ter'angreal would allow them to meet in secret, but the Dream itself, as Siuan described it, sounded like a Dreamer's dream. I can't imagine her sending everyone to the Dark One's prison if it was just a random dream. 

Also, she Siuan cannot see ta'veren in the show, I assume? She has no reaction to Egwene at all.

2 hours ago, Gertrude said:

 

 

25 minutes ago, SpaceChampion said:

You can't make both statements.  How would Moiraine somehow know the guy in the first case is a channeller turned to the Dark, but not know the "lover" in the second case is a darkfriend?

No, I'm not saying she knows he's a Darkfriend. She says something about Liandrin's Ajah having something to say, which to me implies she thinks it's a lover, which I can see the Reds frowning upon.

I'm also saying it's unlikely he is her lover, unless they're changing her character way more. I think the lover thing is a front, and Liandrin is afraid more that if anyone investigates further, they'll find out he's a Darkfriend.

But maybe Liandrin hasn't sworn to the Dark One in the show, yet. That's entirely possible, too, in which case this lover may be for real.

[Ran]

On the whole, liked this episode. Sophie Okonedo is a great presence, though the way she's written her Siuan is quite different from that of WoT. The scenes with Moiraine were definitely among the strongest writing we've seen this season.

That said, there's things that leave me scratching my head. In rough order:

I quite liked the opening vignette and our unexpected first glimpse at the Stone of Tear looming in the distance... but the opening choral harmony after the first few seconds sounds so much like the opening of Enya's "Triad" that it's uncanny. Coincidence? Deliberate homage? The triad of the song are St. Patrick, Cú Chulainn, and Oisin, but Jordan's notes often referred to the female Celtic trinity...

All that said, why create such a wildly different origin for Siuan? She grew up in Tear-proper, in a rough and dangerous area. And she was certainly not a pre-pubscent 8 year old (per Google for the actress) who was channeling on her own! Why make her so young when she's actively channeling? I could easily have seen her as a 13-year-old in the rough-and-tumble Maule, an orphan who's been taken under the wing of a one-handed fisherman or a Fagan type or something, and just go from there. 

(I'm starting to think that they've cut out the Sea Folk entirely from the show. The Sea Folk aren't one of the "national groups" they were trying to figure out on that map we saw, near as I recall, and giving the Tairens this tattoo thing feels like taking an element that wasn't going to be depicted otherwise.)

And why in the world did people burn their home as soon as they returned? All anyone could have seen her do was fiddle around with her hands like a kid playing cat's cradle or something, no obvious anything happening that would lead them to think she was channeling. They should have had fish leaping into the boat or something obvious rather than undoing a knot that no one could possibly have seen from the shore.

Just lazy.

The cinematography at the opening of the Hall scene was clumsy with the transition from the arc shot to the zoom out overhead being really rough. It feels like this was the best take they got, but in general these things tend to be pitch perfect on most prestige shows, so it's a shame they weren't able to do it better. (Also, for purely aesthetic reasons, I also question the order they did this -- should have started way up at the top, zoom all the way down as you see these colored dots and then this mysterious golden train sweeping by them and towards her seat, and then transition to the shot behind Moiraine.)

(Sanderson's reminder that Judkins worked on Agents of SHIELD makes me wonder if the generally mediocre cinematography and lighting of the show is because that's basically what he's used to and doesn't aspire to much more.)

Do like the Logain stuff, except two things: the idea that his army formed entirely because he said he was going to take down the Amyrlin (admittedly, this may be mostly about his trying to get Siuan angry enough to order his execution), and the reference from the Amyrlin that he would live until his madness consumed him. This is a lore change, right? They die of the depression that comes from being gentled/stilled, generally, and the madness doesn't progress once you're gentled.

I appreciate that they did what they were signaling, that Siuan was deliberately going to come off as Moiraine was not a friend and instead an insubordinate figure, but the punishment of "exile" for refusing to answer the Amyrlin seemed very flimsy and everyone among the Sitters should have noticed that the Amyrlin chose not to press for an answer as a proviso of ending her penance .... almost as if she may already know what Moiraine can't talk about and is just manipulating everyone.

So we remarked on Rand being too clean-cut for a couple of episodes. Now, however, the question is is why are he and Mat still so damned dirty? They even show they have a bowl and must have water and such, trivial for Rand to clean them both up with a washcloth. And they're still dirty at the end while Perrin and Egwene are all tidied up. Very weird continuity choice.

Liked the signal from the eyes and ears, and the way that ties into the flowers hanging where Perrin and Egwene are. (OTOH, weird to have them doing a sauna-type thing when that's something they can keep unique to the Aiel...)

Going to assume that they have made Siuan a Dreamer, and the ter'angreal frames they have open into T'A'R. Dangerous to be there in the flesh, of course... Good scene, though, between them, real chemistry. And I guess the ferry keeper's son or son-in-law must have witnessed the ferry sinking and his father/father-in-law drowning, and survived to tell the tale... or are we to take it that the Fade filed a report to the eyes-and-ears? Heh.

On the one hand, I appreciate that Siuan had the "Dark One" telling her he's super weak at the Eye of the World and please, please, please don't send the Dragon to kill me, and she falls for it... but weird that "the Eye of the World" is now the prison of the Dark One, no? Guess there's no Shayol Ghul.

Super weak to have Moiraine questioning Gitara's Foretelling as the reason she thinks there might be five(! that number again!) Dragons. This is all a consequence of this poorly-wrought idea of trying to make a mystery out of it, and the end result is that they're short-changing Rand a lot, and there's some anecdotal evidence that neophytes are going to be sad that Rand is the Dragon precisely because he's such a nothing of a character right now.

I also find it weird that there seems to be no evidence of Moiraine to make any effort to find out where any of the five were born. The only person whose birth status she appears to know anything about is Nynaeve. Are we to believe Egwene, Perrin, and Mat were also all born outside of the Two Rivers? Seems like the only reason they're not testing the Foretelling information vs. the facts is so they can continue this canard of the "many-headed Dragon".
No one has remarked this that I've seen, but that exchange with Liandrin suggests that the Red Ajah enforces lesbianism by harming the men their Sisters may consort with. The Reds are bad enough as they are, this just makes them cartoonish militant lesbians.

"Now that you've blown smoke up our ass" -- stellar writing there, team.

Don't like the Oath Rod being used this way, just to show it off now rather than letting us come to it down the road. And simple exile for an Aes Sedai who we're told has spent 20 years rarely at the Tower doesn't seem like any kind of punishment.

Awkward way to see Mat go. Looks like they used B-roll of reactions and comped him in standing alone.

ETA: Also guessing that Fain is not following them into the Ways. Presumably he'll be pulled toward the dagger and steal it, maybe? Or Mat will be, and Fain will follow him and take it? Who knows.

@IFR

Really good point on the ter'angreal picture frame. She really should be carrying it around with her to keep in touch with Siuan...

[fionwe1987]

39 minutes ago, Ran said:

I quite liked the opening vignette and our unexpected first glimpse at the Stone of Tear looming in the distance... but the opening choral harmony after the first few seconds sounds so much like the opening of Enya's "Triad" that it's uncanny. Coincidence? Deliberate homage? The triad of the song are St. Patrick, Cú Chulainn, and Oisin, but Jordan's notes often referred to the female Celtic trinity...

All that said, why create such a wildly different origin for Siuan? She grew up in Tear-proper, in a rough and dangerous area. And she was certainly not a pre-pubscent 8 year old (per Google for the actress) who was channeling on her own! Why make her so young when she's actively channeling? I could easily have seen her as a 13-year-old in the rough-and-tumble Maule, an orphan who's been taken under the wing of a one-handed fisherman or a Fagan type or something, and just go from there. 

(I'm starting to think that they've cut out the Sea Folk entirely from the show. The Sea Folk aren't one of the "national groups" they were trying to figure out on that map we saw, near as I recall, and giving the Tairens this tattoo thing feels like taking an element that wasn't going to be depicted otherwise.)

And why in the world did people burn their home as soon as they returned? All anyone could have seen her do was fiddle around with her hands like a kid playing cat's cradle or something, no obvious anything happening that would lead them to think she was channeling. They should have had fish leaping into the boat or something obvious rather than undoing a knot that no one could possibly have seen from the shore.

Just lazy.

I'm guessing the Maule wasn't depicted for budgetary reasons, because yeah, it would have been way cooler to have that part of her story intact. 

And yeah, I have no idea why they showed her so young. That's a creative decision, and one I just cannot comprehend. 

39 minutes ago, Ran said:

Do like the Logain stuff, except two things: the idea that his army formed entirely because he said he was going to take down the Amyrlin (admittedly, this may be mostly about his trying to get Siuan angry enough to order his execution), and the reference from the Amyrlin that he would live until his madness consumed him. This is a lore change, right? They die of the depression that comes from being gentled/stilled, generally, and the madness doesn't progress once you're gentled.

This part is definitely a lore change. His madness wouldn't go away post-gentling, but it wouldn't advance, either. But it's possible that what remains of it continues to be a probelm. We don't see that explored in the books, but it's feasible, at least. 

39 minutes ago, Ran said:

I appreciate that they did what they were signaling, that Siuan was deliberately going to come off as Moiraine was not a friend and instead an insubordinate figure, but the punishment of "exile" for refusing to answer the Amyrlin seemed very flimsy and everyone among the Sitters should have noticed that the Amyrlin chose not to press for an answer as a proviso of ending her penance .... almost as if she may already know what Moiraine can't talk about and is just manipulating everyone.

Yeah, I was wondering about why no one cares that she wasn't forced to answer, either.

Exile is different from voluntary wandering, though. The way everyone turns from her, it seems clear the sentence means she won't be able to work with other sisters or count on the support of the Tower when out and about. Given what we know is coming, that's an advantage, but I can buy that sisters who have no idea what Moiraine's goals are would think this is a huge punishment. 

39 minutes ago, Ran said:

Liked the signal from the eyes and ears, and the way that ties into the flowers hanging where Perrin and Egwene are.

Missed this completely.

39 minutes ago, Ran said:

On the one hand, I appreciate that Siuan had the "Dark One" telling her he's super weak at the Eye of the World and please, please, please don't send the Dragon to kill me, and she falls for it... but weird that "the Eye of the World" is now the prison of the Dark One, no? Guess there's no Shayol Ghul.

If it was a prophetic Dream, it wouldn't be the Dark One saying it, just Siuan intuiting it. Though clearly, the "Dark One" she's referring to is going to be Ishamael, anyway. 

39 minutes ago, Ran said:

Super weak to have Moiraine questioning Gitara's Foretelling as the reason she thinks there might be five(! that number again!) Dragons. This is all a consequence of this poorly-wrought idea of trying to make a mystery out of it, and the end result is that they're short-changing Rand a lot, and there's some anecdotal evidence that neophytes are going to be sad that Rand is the Dragon precisely because he's such a nothing of a character right now.

Agreed. The mystery angle continues to hamper the story. They really shouldn't have leaned into it. It's fine for the characters in the show not to know, but just like in the books, the audience knowing would have been fine, I think. 

39 minutes ago, Ran said:

I also find it weird that there seems to be no evidence of Moiraine to make any effort to find out where any of the five were born. The only person whose birth status she appears to know anything about is Nynaeve. Are we to believe Egwene, Perrin, and Mat were also all born outside of the Two Rivers? Seems like the only reason they're not testing the Foretelling information vs. the facts is so they can continue this canard of the "many-headed Dragon".

This depends on what Gitara's prophesy would be, in show. Maybe she doesn't see him being born on Dragonmount's slopes, and there isn't another Prophesy that says that is where he'll be born. 

39 minutes ago, Ran said:

No one has remarked this that I've seen, but that exchange with Liandrin suggests that the Red Ajah enforces lesbianism by harming the men their Sisters may consort with. The Reds are bad enough as they are, this just makes them cartoonish militant lesbians.

Not enforces lesbianism, necessarily, just no relations with men. That definitely is a change from the books, but not a very wild one. The Reds discourage friendship outside the Ajah, too, in the books, so this doesn't seem too far out there. 

39 minutes ago, Ran said:

"Now that you've blown smoke up our ass" -- stellar writing there, team.

Yeah the dialog has just been shit, and takes me away from the world each time they drop lines like this in. 

39 minutes ago, Ran said:

 

@IFR

Really good point on the ter'angreal picture frame. She really should be carrying it around with her to keep in touch with Siuan...

Its possible this only works in proximity, but they really should have dropped some info about that in the show, if so. 

[Gertrude]

The biggest thing that is disappointing me about this series is how little time we get to spend with out EF 5. I kind of get why they are going this route - we are going to get much more of them in later seasons and spend time really getting to know them and they feel they need to set up the world and there is only so much time, etc. And I don't necessarily disagree - introducing the Aes Sedai and Tower politics, as well as Logain are things I think are smart changes. It just ends up feeling so rushed and our gang getting the short end of the stick. It's asking us to invest in the world rather than the main characters and I don't know if that's the right decision or not.

Overall I am enjoying it, obviously, but there are flaws, and I think this is one of them.

[Poobah]

I really liked the episode but completely agree that the "Dragon mystery" is hampering the plotting and forcing some silliness, especially making Rand into Bland.

1 hour ago, fionwe1987 said:

Exile is different from voluntary wandering, though. The way everyone turns from her, it seems clear the sentence means she won't be able to work with other sisters or count on the support of the Tower when out and about. Given what we know is coming, that's an advantage, but I can buy that sisters who have no idea what Moiraine's goals are would think this is a huge punishment. 

Yeah there were a lot of implications that people assumed that Moiraine has designs on the Amyrlin Seat or other political ambitions because of her strength in the power and secretiveness and in such a scenario Siuan essentially just destroyed a rival in a big power move.

[BigFatCoward]

The freaky looking red bitch can't act for shit. 

[Ran]

2 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

I'm guessing the Maule wasn't depicted for budgetary reasons, because yeah, it would have been way cooler to have that part of her story intact. 

True, though they could have swung it by having them at some small boat shack on some distant dock that conveniently blocks the camera's view of the city and just see the Stone looming, add some environmental noise... but sure, a couple of extras would probably help.

The age is the more baffling thing.

2 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

Exile is different from voluntary wandering, though.

Fair enough. Just seemed like the failure to get her to beg forgiveness and reveal the reason would make some think that it was a poor exile. Better to exile her to hard labor on the farm, surely, for such open defiance of the Amyrlin Seat?

Quote

If it was a prophetic Dream, it wouldn't be the Dark One saying it, just Siuan intuiting it.

Don't you think the Dark One/Ishamael could convince a Dreamer that they were having a prophetic dream?

Speaking of the dream... the Amyrlin Seat, born to great power, believed she could destroy the Dark One ... with a crack team of a single Aes Sedai, her Warder, five kids from the Two Rivers, and an Ogier ... the arrogance! 

2 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

This depends on what Gitara's prophesy would be, in show.

Fair. Apparently one of the early drafts of the script had Gitara's scene as the opener and it was pretty much what was shown in New Spring. I wonder to what degree this means that it was Amazon that insisted on making a mystery of who the Dragon is, and it wasn't originally Rafe's intention...

But since it didn't make it to the final cut, I guess it remains a question.

2 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

The Reds discourage friendship outside the Ajah, too, in the books, so this doesn't seem too far out there. 

Surely by discouraging Red sisters who stray. Moiraine's thing about Liandrin "know[ing] what your sisters would do to him" is the specifically objectionable thing.

ETA: Speaking of Ogier, the animated Ogier featurette is the best one yet. Real mood to it.

[fionwe1987]

14 minutes ago, Ran said:

True, though they could have swung it by having them at some small boat shack on some distant dock that conveniently blocks the camera's view of the city and just see the Stone looming, add some environmental noise... but sure, a couple of extras would probably help.

The age is the more baffling thing.

Agreed. 

14 minutes ago, Ran said:

Fair enough. Just seemed like the failure to get her to beg forgiveness and reveal the reason would make some think that it was a poor exile. Better to exile her to hard labor on the farm, surely, for such open defiance of the Amyrlin Seat?

Oh for sure. It was a lighter punishment, and didn't change the fact that she didn't answer the question.

That said, the question itself is baffling. Liandrin points to some intelligence failures, which surely aren't just Moiraine's job in her Ajah. The show could have found a more convincing thing for Moiraine to be punished for, where she wasn't continuing to do the thing she's being exiled for. 

14 minutes ago, Ran said:

Don't you think the Dark One/Ishamael could convince a Dreamer that they were having a prophetic dream?

At least based on the books, no. Ishamael can send troubling dreams to an inexperienced Dreamer, but the identification of  True Dreams is part of the Talent, and not something we have any evidence can be messed with, any more than "Listening to the Wind", for instance, can be faked out. 

14 minutes ago, Ran said:

Speaking of the dream... the Amyrlin Seat, born to great power, believed she could destroy the Dark One ... with a crack team of a single Aes Sedai, her Warder, five kids from the Two Rivers, and an Ogier ... the arrogance! 

Lol. I see what you did there. And this only reveals the absurdity of that line from Moiraine. She is doing plenty of arrogant stuff herself. I just don't buy that she'd judge Lews Therin, least of all every single male channeler. 

14 minutes ago, Ran said:

Fair. Apparently one of the early drafts of the script had Gitara's scene as the opener and it was pretty much what was shown in New Spring. I wonder to what degree this means that it was Amazon that insisted on making a mystery of who the Dragon is, and it wasn't originally Rafe's intention...

But since it didn't make it to the final cut, I guess it remains a question.

Yeah I'm beginning to see how the mystery aspect is likely one of the things Amazon insisted on. And hey, if they predicted this would increase social media engagement, they may even have been right, but the story definitely suffers for it.

Starting with the Prophesy might have been a great scene, actually. Definitely better than the stuff we got. 

14 minutes ago, Ran said:

Surely by discouraging Red sisters who stray. Moiraine's thing about Liandrin "know[ing] what your sisters would do to him" is the specifically objectionable thing.

Yeah, that part is definitely the worst of it. It's hard to buy, to be honest. Again, they could come up with a better set of lines to have pretty much the same effect, but for it to hang together better. 

14 minutes ago, Ran said:

ETA: Speaking of Ogier, the animated Ogier featurette is the best one yet. Real mood to it.

I enjoyed it a lot, yes. 

[Maithanet]

This whole plan to go confront the dark one feels completely half baked.  I mean, why are Siuan/Moiraine so confident that the dark one will be completely alone?  Both know of the existence of black ajah, so what if there are a few dark channelers there?  Surely she knows the two rivers group is too inexperienced to be of much help.  So she's bringing the dragon to the dark one, and just assuming everything will go right?  Why?!  Why not focus on getting the two rivers crew ready for the the trials ahead?

This feels like very sloppy writing.

Other than that, it was a good ep.  Siuan and Moiraine were interesting and well acted.

[fionwe1987]

22 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

This whole plan to go confront the dark one feels completely half baked.  I mean, why are Siuan/Moiraine so confident that the dark one will be completely alone?  Both know of the existence of black ajah, so what if there are a few dark channelers there?  Surely she knows the two rivers group is too inexperienced to be of much help.  So she's bringing the dragon to the dark one, and just assuming everything will go right?  Why?!  Why not focus on getting the two rivers crew ready for the the trials ahead?

This feels like very sloppy writing.

Other than that, it was a good ep.  Siuan and Moiraine were interesting and well acted.

Yeah, the rush in these episodes means even the exposition we do get is half baked. 

[Darryk]

The  Siuan / Moiraine stuff was strong, making them lovers (they were just good friends in the books, right?) does make the relationship more poignant.

This sidelining of Rand, which I'm guessing is intentional because they're trying to maintain the mystery, is in danger of backfiring on them as it seems it's resulted in a lot of viewers not liking the character, which could be an issue going forward.

Siuan's dialogue with Logain seemed a bit off. Dunno why she says "until the madness takes you completely" when he's been gentled and can't channel anymore. Confusing and unnecessary line.

Shame about the Barney Harris send off, but can't hold that against them as cast-related difficulties are out of their hands.

"Since you're blowing smoke up our asses" aaargh, can't stand this kind of dialogue, just feels so out of place in this setting.

So the Eye of the World is the Dark One's prison now? Maybe they thought Shayol Ghul was too similar to Mount Doom from LOTR? The Eye seems like a much less dramatic location for the prophesied Last Battle to take place though.

Also why would Moraine think that the Dark One can be stopped this early on? Surely she'd be aware from the prophecies that the Dragon has a long way to go before he's ready to face the Dark One?

Also what's this with Siuan's dreams about a three-headed dragon? Was that in the books? Or are they getting their WoT and ASOIF prophecies mixed up?

[IFR]

22 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

This whole plan to go confront the dark one feels completely half baked.  I mean, why are Siuan/Moiraine so confident that the dark one will be completely alone?  Both know of the existence of black ajah, so what if there are a few dark channelers there?  Surely she knows the two rivers group is too inexperienced to be of much help.  So she's bringing the dragon to the dark one, and just assuming everything will go right?  Why?!  Why not focus on getting the two rivers crew ready for the the trials ahead?

I'm just curious how the writers are going to proceed with this.

This scenario would never happen in the books because Siuan isn't a Dreamer, and even if she was, the Forsaken wouldn't have the ability to "corrupt" dreaming. But that aside, Moiraine didn't go to the Eye with the impression that the Last Battle of the Dragon vs the Dark One would be fought, as is the case here apparently. So many of the Prophecies remain unfulfilled to even announce the Dragon.

But with the approach of the show, it seems like the Prophecies are highly obscure and vague and really not of much use. Which will require changes down the road, because much of the driving force behind people accepting Rand as the Dragon is that he clearly fulfills the Prophecies.

If these Prophecies are in doubt as much as they are portrayed, why would anyone accept Rand as anything other than as a man who can channel? 

I wonder if the Aiel and Sea Folk Prophecies will be this much in doubt too?

Another consequence of this development is why should people believe Dreamers now that is has been demonstrated that the Dreams are corruptible?