The Wheel of Time: Jane Farstrider Herself (Book Spoilers)

[Darryk]

The biggest disappointment for me has been the absence of Ishamael. He was such a presence in the first book. They could have had him appearing to all of the Two Rivers folk in visions if they wanted to preserve the "Who is the Dragon Reborn" mystery.

I really hope we get the fight between Rand and Ishamael from The Great Hunt; Rand's "not once in a thousand lives have I ever served you" is one of the most epic lines in the series.

[Which Tyler]

2 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

I haven't in good faith been able to recommend the show to anyone who hasn't read the books, and for those who have, my recommendation is heavily caveated and basically boils down to "lots of issues, mixed with some signs of potential that I hope they capitalize on in future seasons".

And yet, from my media bubble, the non-readers seem to be enjoying this more than the readers.

 

I think the biggest thing this show is suffering from is the chop from 10 episodes to 8 - which seems to have been a late enough change that the chop comes in the editing suite, not the writing room.

The second biggest, as ever, is the book fans complaining about absent scenes, or looking for other reasons to criticise (and finding them, but it's the mindset) rather than just enjoy.

[Matrim Fox Cauthon]

My general impression from watching this WoT series is that a number of the changes to the plot reflect the need to show and not tell a lot of the exposition that is in the book, particularly info that comes up in the background, behind-the-scenes chapters. There are some nice little things that I actually find quite ingenious additions, such as spiritual practices and prayers for warding off the Forsaken among people. 

My partner has never read WoT, but they are really enjoying it. We are taking it slow, and we are still not caught up yet, which is how I prefer it. While I find some of the changes irksome, I think that in some respects they are necessary to ensure a good flow for the series while also updating some modern sensibilities. What's fun to read is not always fun to watch. And what's laborsome to read (hello later WoT books), may be better served by a more condensed narrative. 

Talking about the book series as well as a few changes that have come up, I have spoilered some things for my partner already. But if I had not - or if I had been ignorant of the series as well - I could imagine that there are some fairly fun twist and turn mysteries in this series, such as the guessing game about the Dragon Reborn. (But come on, peeps! It's the main character!) 

I'm not looking for a 100 percent faithful adapation here. My goal is to enjoy it for what it is. If only to introduce others to the World of Time, I think it does a pretty good job. My partner has already expressed an interest in reading the series, though I have already warned him about the pacing of the middle books onwards. 

[Werthead]

A whole bunch of shots and GIFs leaked from the final episode (they're being deleted as far as they're being mirrored).

Obviously read with caution, although it is drawing on material from the end of the first book:

Spoiler

Ishamael* is in, it looks like played by Swedish-Lebanese actor Fares Fares. He appears to Rand and tempts him with flashback-visions to the Two Rivers. At one point Rand starts channelling and the One Power flows between himself and the image of himself a baby in the crib, and there's a nice transition from Rand holding the Power in the vision to himself holding it in the present day, either at the Eye of the World or in Tarwin's Gap.

At one point the gang are attacked by a vast horde of Trollocs and it looks Rand, Nynaeve, Egwene and Moiraine link to generate a vortex of the Power that's many orders of magnitude above what we saw in Episode 1. It also looks like Ishamael blocks Moiraine from the Power and shields her whilst he's tormenting Rand.

*Assuming he's not playing Aginor, of course.

 

[IFR]

10 hours ago, karaddin said:

I think a lot of those complaints would have been resolved by a 10 episode season, and if you were not being annoyed by what's missing it might be easier to enjoy the additions which are there.

I would have agreed with this in part a couple of episodes. The show is too rushed, and a couple more episodes may have done the trick with the pacing issue.

After watching the last two episodes, I don't think that would have done much. The writers simply are bad at economic storytelling. I also think that even given more time, the writers are not interested in developing the EF5 yet because of their all consuming focus on maintaining this mystery of the DR. This has been a very poor decision that has greatly harmed the show.

3 hours ago, Which Tyler said:

The second biggest, as ever, is the book fans complaining about absent scenes, or looking for other reasons to criticise (and finding them, but it's the mindset) rather than just enjoy

I wish that the writers had written something that could be enjoyed. The production problems have been noted by Ran and fionwe, and I'll reiterate the opinion I remarked to Werthead that this is an expensive show that looks cheap. But the story is entirely generic so far. There is none of the Wheel of Time humor, and so we don't have the charm of Robert Jordan's world. Instead we have a broody, undercooked YA fantasy that is too cowardly to actually address the cruelties of the world in a realistic fashion, but then too grim to make the experience anymore than a joyless slog of generic fantasy scene after generic fantasy scene.

[Which Tyler]

11 minutes ago, IFR said:

I wish that the writers had written something that could be enjoyed.

"I don't enjoy this" =/= "this is not something that could be enjoyed"

 

Otherwise - yes, thank you for illustrating my point for me

[karaddin]

I'm just consistently unable to understand how it seems like we're watching two different shows. There is none of the humor? I'm finding a ton of it funny and it all feels appropriate humor to me. I also see an awful lot of criticizing the impact of the mystery on the story, but I really don't think resolving the mystery in episode 5 would really have changed all that much about the path of this story across the first season.

I see a whole bunch of scenes that are pulling double or even triple purposes to set up a lot and introduce the audience to various things they need to know while IFR thinks they have zero economy in their writing.

We also just seem to have fundamentally different takes on how we read the characters in the book if I can think they're really nailing the fundamentals of the characters and you find them utterly unrecognizable. I can understand how that's frustrating and not fun, I guess I'm just lucky that the show runners see the characters the same way I do.

I can understand wanting to see out a season but if you really can't stand this version of a show it's better to tap out than drive the frustration. I did that with GoT mid season 5 and never once regretted it. Despite my current positive approach of trying to enjoy stuff, I also did it a few weeks ago with the second season of Gen:Lock where HBO managed to retcon the entire plot, both sides of the conflict and all the characters going from an amazing season 1 into a grimdark season 2. And there were definitely people in the Foundation thread who should have given up on that. 

4 hours ago, Which Tyler said:

I think the biggest thing this show is suffering from is the chop from 10 episodes to 8 - which seems to have been a late enough change that the chop comes in the editing suite, not the writing room.

Yeah that's very much the impression I'm getting as well. Have we had statements on exactly what happened which contradict this? Because I know the pandemic really wreaked havoc on finishing the season, and it just doesn't look like some of this was how it was meant to play out when filmed.

[IFR]

1 hour ago, Which Tyler said:

"I don't enjoy this" =/= "this is not something that could be enjoyed"

I mean, clearly. I've stated several times I'm happy for those who enjoy this show. Taste is subjective. There is nothing wrong with liking this.

And there's nothing wrong with not liking it. This isn't a thread exclusively for those who absolutely adore the show. You have a mix of those who like it and those who don't.

1 hour ago, Which Tyler said:

Otherwise - yes, thank you for illustrating my point for me

I'm not sure what your point is. Why don't people stop complaining and just enjoy the Artemis Fowl movie? Or just enjoy Avatar: The Last Airbender movie? Or why doesn't everyone stifle their objections and just start liking every Michael Bay movie?

@karaddin

I think we indeed see things too differently to ever come to an agreement. A lot of this is based on emotional reception to events as they are portrayed.

For instance, I haven't gone back in the thread, but I imagine you enjoyed the sequence of Nynaeve's Healing, or Lan in the grieving ceremony, and weren't particularly bothered by Loial's appearance. In all of these instances, the immediate reaction of myself and those who watched it was to break out in laughter. The moving scenes have so far been very funny, not achieving the intended effect.

I'm sure if I watched these sequences and was moved by them, my opinion would be more favorable. Likewise, if you saw Lan tear open his robe and howl and thought that was hilarious, you probably would view the show less favorably.

As to why I'm still watching...because while the show is a far cry from great, I wouldn't consider it a true atrocity. It's a C, bordering on a C- for me right now. Usually I don't like campy shows that I think are mediocre, but the memory of the books are enough to keep me going.

If the show does indeed continue on its downward trajectory, I probably will stop though.

[fionwe1987]

Yeah I'm a tad confused here. No one (with the possible future exception of Lord Varys, I guess) is saying that anyone who likes the show is stupid, or that there's no way anyone can like the show. Nor are most people here claiming the production team is a bunch of hacks or anything.

I'm happy to give the show plenty of rope, and have noted various things that could explain the issues we're seeing, including the 10 episode to 8 transition.

You cannot both claim the show suffers from the absence of those two episodes, and claim that there's nothing to complain about.

If the choppiness of the editing and the weird modern dialog mixed in with portentous lines about the Wheel and the Dark One, or the underdevelopment of the Two Rivers five don't bother your enjoyment of the show, more power to you.

But to claim that because your bubble of non-book readers is liking the show, anyone disliking it must be a book reader and must be wrong is a bizarre take. At least, not without rebutting the actual criticisms various people are making.

[Werthead]

21 minutes ago, karaddin said:

Yeah that's very much the impression I'm getting as well. Have we had statements on exactly what happened which contradict this? Because I know the pandemic really wreaked havoc on finishing the season, and it just doesn't look like some of this was how it was meant to play out when filmed.

The compression from 10 to 8 happened very early in the process, long before writing the actual shooting scripts, and certainly not as a result of the pandemic.

[Ran]

2 minutes ago, Werthead said:

The compression from 10 to 8 happened very early in the process, long before writing the actual shooting scripts, and certainly not as a result of the pandemic.

Yeah, I was trying to find quotes to that effect somewhere. Specifically I recall Judkins having intended the first two episodes to cover the ground they covered in one, but Amazon scratched that idea with their 8 episode order. He still thinks the story would be easier to convey in 10 episodes a season, but near as I can tell he's gotten 8 for season 2, so Amazon isn't budging.

The reality of budgets and studio mandates, of course, but between that and Judkins's admission that his show is the "red-headed stepchild" at Amazon, his remark about the huge amount of notes, plus some of Sanderson's remarks, it's plain to me this is a particularly compromised effort to adapt the books to screen. It was going to be challenging enough to do it even in the best possible environment.

@IFR

Similar rating here from me. It's not the sort of show, quality-wise, that I would usually watch if I didn't have an interest from the pre-existing material and a curiosity about the adaptation. 

[karaddin]

3 minutes ago, Werthead said:

The compression from 10 to 8 happened very early in the process, long before writing the actual shooting scripts, and certainly not as a result of the pandemic.

Some of the "missing" bits could have been down to not having the budget to warrant unnecessary effects, like using the power to bury the bodies, but most of them would just have been talking on a set so can't be explained by that. Simplest remaining explanation is probably just down to Judkins being a bit inexperienced in the big seat. If that's the case then hopefully he either learnt a lot from s1 to smooth out the rough edges or gets some more assistance brought in - excessive notes from the studio aren't that though haha.

Fionwe - Yeah at no point have I claimed it's perfect, just that I'm enjoying it, think there's a lot they're doing right and particularly enjoying the cast. Hoping that the flaws which I agree are flaws get improved in subsequent seasons, and I still think a couple more episodes per season would also help. The part I've struggled with is just the size of the disconnect between my experience and some others.

IFR - the only episode I felt was campy to the point of being hyper aware and maybe cringe at times was the first. That scene in the Inn definitely wasn't the best. I liked most of Nynaeve healing, I can see keeping it smaller in scope (as in Lan+Moiraine physically touching each other) might have worked better but it didn't bother me, so that discomfort is just knowing it would bother others.

And yeah, I thought the Lan mourning scene was great - it landed emotionally for me because I'd been sold on Stepin and the relationship between the warders, and I think Lan's stoicism is about controlling what emotions he allows himself to feel in the moment to stay on task, not that he doesn't feel them. In a funeral ritual, letting those emotions out is staying on task.

As for Loial? Eh, it's not great lol. I think the actors doing his best though so I'm able to go with it.

[fionwe1987]

Loial is primarily there as an easy source of exposition, and because he's got an Ent-ish personality, it's charming to hear him give you that exposition from that outsider perspective.

In the show so far, he's massively underused. Hopefully, that changes in the Ways, though with the way they had Moiraine open the gate, I'm not quite sure we'll get that.

[Jace, Extat]

They had 7 hours to tell a story and haven't yet informed the audience who the main character is. Instead they spent the last 100 minutes developing a character who died (rather than killing him at the outset of episode 05 and developing Lan, dealing with grief of losing a warder friend and confronting the realities of his own bond with Nynaeve and Moiraine, y'know, the characters that are involved in the story), and then an Amrylin who was cool and interesting but has now exited the story for the remainder of the season, functioning only as a plot stirring device to get the heroes (about which we know Fuck all) to get to the climax... 

The creative decisions, how and where to focus the narrative thrusts of the episodes, are so baffling to me that I cannot even take the story at face value. 

There's nothing wrong with going a different way than the books. But just because you're blazing a new trail don't mean you're not leaping off a cliff.

[karaddin]

The narrative arc was superficially about Stepin, but it's actually about Lan and Moiraine. The way it was told didn't work for you, but that's a failure of execution, not being nonsensical story telling.

[Iskaral Pust]

We enjoyed ep6 too.  Siuan is a good presence (that actress is very good in Flack too).  The entire season has been told primarily from Moraine’s POV, which makes sense when she’s the star in the cast.  But it also means that the EF5 are badly underdeveloped, and that the story has opened as a palace intrigue rather than as a hero’s journey.

At this point it’s obvious that Bland alThor must be the DR because otherwise there is zero point to having him in the story.  It’s such a pity to lose  the actor playing Mat because he was easily the best of the EF5 actors and the other young actors are really not that good (Perrin is the worst).

Lots of plot holes and unsupported assertions, some unfortunate dialogue that veers from pompously portentous to gratingly contemporary, but still an enjoyable watch.

[IFR]

I do think that those who are upset that not everyone is liking this show should at least find consolation in that the criticisms here have been relatively mild. Disappointed fans can get ridiculously vile. Really it's unbelievable how bad it can get. There are plenty of fans who aren't satisfied with just criticizing the show, but sink to personal insults of the cast and crew. People have called for George Lucas' death. There's a GoT reddit where people refer to David Benioff and Dan Weiss as Dumb and Dumber, or Douche and Douchier, and so many other disgusting insults. There are so many fans who get carried away with the hostility, and it's insane.

At least in these threads, people limit the criticisms to the show itself, and are respectful of each other, whether we agree or disagree. I really like that.

25 minutes ago, Babblebauble said:

They had 7 hours to tell a story and haven't yet informed the audience who the main character is. Instead they spent the last 100 minutes developing a character who died (rather than killing him at the outset of episode 05 and developing Lan, dealing with grief of losing a warder friend and confronting the realities of his own bond with Nynaeve and Moiraine, y'know, the characters that are involved in the story), and then an Amrylin who was cool and interesting but has now exited the story for the remainder of the season, functioning only as a plot stirring device to get the heroes (about which we know Fuck all) to get to the climax... 

The creative decisions, how and where to focus the narrative thrusts of the episodes, are so baffling to me that I cannot even take the story at face value. 

There's nothing wrong with going a different way than the books. But just because you're blazing a new trail don't mean you're not leaping off a cliff.

 

I agree. Generally you want to develop your main characters at the beginning, and then work more on world building. WoT is inverting that by focusing on worldbuilding at the expense of the main characters. So far I would say Moiraine is the only one decently developed.

[karaddin]

Another point about the difficulty of this first season is being tied to the broad strokes of the first books climax. I'm convinced that if Jordan had been able to go back over TEOTW, TGH and TDR we'd see some pretty substantial changes to the way they build to climaxes which look like more than they are. 

I don't have a good suggestion for what climax you could use to replace the show down at that Eye of the World, but I'm sure the story could work better. Possibly something as simple as pushing it back a bit further into the story, although that would require bringing other elements forward until things were in the right place. I just think the books reasons for them to go are somewhat flimsy in hindsight, most of the climax is irrelevant in the long run, and the Eye is drained and accomplished nothing other than the destruction of a huge trolloc army that you can simply not have there at that time, and the death of a forsaken who is promptly jammed into another body. The meta reason is of course that it was the ending if he didn't get any further books, but he did.

There's a similar dynamic with Falme and Tear, and I think one fake out climax is good but two or kinda three? Not so much. But they can't change this first climax completely without causing a lot of outrage on top of needing to come up with something else, so we get a weak justification for the trip that probably fits this version of the story even less than the book version did. There may be similar issues with TGH and TDR, but I think they've got a lot more leeway to change things around and/or combine those two.

Once the show gets through to TSR I think some of the adaptation choices become easier. At least in terms of the season climaxes.

[fionwe1987]

1 hour ago, karaddin said:

The narrative arc was superficially about Stepin, but it's actually about Lan and Moiraine. The way it was told didn't work for you, but that's a failure of execution, not being nonsensical story telling.

I would say it is nonsensical in that it would have been way more effective in Season 2, after spending some time with Kerene and Stepin. It would have hit harder and the  stakes for Lan, Moiraine and Nynaeve would have been clearer. 

I do agree things get better for them tSR on, but that's why I'm concerned. That's a long way to go, and they better get us to care about more than Moiraine. So far, while the show claims to be aiming to be an ensemble story, it isn't behaving like one. 

[Which Tyler]

2 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

Yeah I'm a tad confused here. No one (with the possible future exception of Lord Varys, I guess) is saying that anyone who likes the show is stupid, or that there's no way anyone can like the show. Nor are most people here claiming the production team is a bunch of hacks or anything.

I'm happy to give the show plenty of rope, and have noted various things that could explain the issues we're seeing, including the 10 episode to 8 transition.

You cannot both claim the show suffers from the absence of those two episodes, and claim that there's nothing to complain about.

If the choppiness of the editing and the weird modern dialog mixed in with portentous lines about the Wheel and the Dark One, or the underdevelopment of the Two Rivers five don't bother your enjoyment of the show, more power to you.

But to claim that because your bubble of non-book readers is liking the show, anyone disliking it must be a book reader and must be wrong is a bizarre take. At least, not without rebutting the actual criticisms various people are making.

Talkeng about "no-one's saying what you say they're saying"

Have you got anyone saying what you're railing against here?