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The Wheel of Time: Jane Farstrider Herself (Book Spoilers)


Ran

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1 hour ago, IFR said:

Disappointed fans can get ridiculously vile. Really it's unbelievable how bad it can get.

I've been watching some of those reviews (because I'm a sadist apparently, and like to hear radically different views for as long as I can take it). I think I mentioned Shad (Sahdiversity) as one such person and his review on ep 6 is starting out by saying that not only is this show bad, it's destructive and harmful for society. He is now actively calling out r/Whitecloaks for being the voice of reason in the fandom.

Yeah, I'm with Karaddin, it's sometimes hard to wrap my brain around how radically different people have interpreted the source material and the messages they take and cherish from it and reconcile that to my own. I know that's the eternal struggle, but sometimes it's harder than other times.

And yes, the name calling is sometimes the most disappointing part. Judkins is apparently a zero-talent hack with a radical feminist, communist agenda that is actively trying to bring about the downfall of civilization.

Thank you guys for being a bit of an oasis in the toxic sea of fandom.

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1 hour ago, karaddin said:

The narrative arc was superficially about Stepin, but it's actually about Lan and Moiraine. The way it was told didn't work for you, but that's a failure of execution, not being nonsensical story telling.

Steppin had 5 or 6 scenes. SCENES!!! In which he was the focus, the character around which the others orbited. That's more than any of the -ostensibly- main characters have gotten in any two episodes, let alone one. All in one episode! This dude who we met in the episode previous as a bit player was elevated to main character of an episode and then died. 

Suicide is a terrible, terrible, thing. Worth exploring in your fiction, because it's real. And using the Warder bond as a vehicle for such exploration is not a bad idea, it's actually rather inspired. But when you've gone out of your way to avoid revealing who your protagonist is for over five hours of material and are actively hamstringing the presentation (let alone development) of the MAIN CHARACTERS for the sake of keeping some poorly written secret... You do not have time for supplemental characters that do not continue to impact the story. That's bad writing, bad planning, and bad storytelling. 

  

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Sad to hear about Shad but having watched enough of his videos before I stopped watching it doesn’t surprise me. He’s not really a nice guy and basically reeks of privilege. I’ve been watching reviews like Dusty Wheel and Naeblis and others and they’ve been quite positive. I stay away from the Reddits though. Both my wife and I have read the books (we actually met on a forum that discussed the books) but we’re not wedded to the content like others are. For us we’ve enjoyed it a lot. I do think from reviews and such that people who have come into the series not reading the books are probably enjoying it more. Not to say there isn’t stuff in the show so far I would have changed like not opening the waygates with power or reducing the Steppin subplot in episode five by about five minutes to give more room to the others. And obviously it would have been nice if the Mat recasting wouldn’t have happened and they had kept him with the group.

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It is good to see that the writers of the show felt that Jordan's idea what the Blue Ajah were about made no sense, so they changed them to an intelligence-gathering Ajah - which explains why they have the large network of spies they have.

While in the books it makes, in context, little to no sense the Blues should have such a large spy network compared to the Ajahs who do actually deal with politics or hunt concrete individuals (male channelers) down.

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9 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

It is good to see that the writers of the show felt that Jordan's idea what the Blue Ajah were about made no sense, so they changed them to an intelligence-gathering Ajah - which explains why they have the large network of spies they have.

This was a change I liked. Having 'causes' was very nebulous in the books and we never explored other blues and their causes that I remember. Having blue be the CIA gives them a much more cohesive purpose.

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I was amused at that scene because I could feel Lord Varys preening through time :rofl:

For me, causes always translated to politics. And that made it perfectly reasonable they focussed on information gathering. But if they had to dumb it down for the show, I'm fine with it.

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Couple of questions for a non-book reader that doesn't mind spoilers:

- Why are Siuan and Moiraine hiding their plans from the wider Aes Sedai? Isn't the whole point of the Aes Sedai to defeat the Dark One? Or is their role more to control and eliminate male channelers?

- Are Black Ajah a surprise revealed later in the books? I assume these are Aes Sedai that go rogue and support the Big Bad?

- Will the Forsaken come up again? (I think these were the idols the sad Warder was praying to?) They sound interesting...sort of like the Taken in the Black Company series? Sub-Dark One boss fights?

- Are non-channeling supernatural powers like Perrin's a known thing in the world? Moiraine seemed to imply it might just be an unknown manifestation of Dragon Reborn powers?

- Is the mystery of who the Dragon Reborn is a thing at all in the books?

 

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1. Because dealing with male channellers is a good way to get the Reds on you and get stilled. Basically Siaun and Moiraine witnessed a prophecy about the dragon being born but believing that themselves is different from others believing it.

2. Yes and no. Dreadlords (evil channellers) are known of but the tower does have a bit of a blind spot to thinking those are just men. (See point 1). Women black ajah are a shock to good Aes sedai.

3. Yes (see werts spoiler) but we’ve already seen one in the dream scenes.

4. yes but it’s pretty rare. They mentioned it with tavern but they’re basically special people who basically got chosen to do cool shit because Robert Jordan said so. Of course all three in the books were male so some people are upset that women got into some of that and aren’t just waiting to be rescued by the men like the books. :p

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1 minute ago, fionwe1987 said:

I was amused at that scene because I could feel Lord Varys preening through time :rofl:

I'm actually not that surprised that the writers fix a lot of the smaller issues I have with the world-building and background.

1 minute ago, fionwe1987 said:

For me, causes always translated to politics. And that made it perfectly reasonable they focussed on information gathering. But if they had to dumb it down for the show, I'm fine with it.

But Jordan does have an entire 'politics Ajah' with the Grays. As I made clear - if an Ajah in the books should have the largest spy network it would be they. They have to know what's going on everywhere The Blues do not concern themselves with politics as such but - one imagines - larger or smaller causes which may or may not be 'political'.

And he also has two nerd Ajahs with the Brown and the White both of which could actually include/work with non-channeler nerds since you don't need to channel to be a good scholar, mathematician, philosopher, etc.

Also enjoyed the foreshadowing about Seanchan.

Liked that Moiraine and Siuan actually are a couple - and perhaps that helps to explain why their entire friendship is a secret if this kind of thing were frowned upon in the order.

Siuan's actress acts kind of weird, though. I cannot put my finger on it.

I liked the interaction between little Siuan and her father - although I, too, would have preferred if they had them live in Tear proper and we would have gotten a scene where the authorities of the state had decided to sent her to Tar Valon as soon as her abilities were revealed.

Liandrin as a Black Ajah gets more and more difficult the more sympathetic and layered she becomes - it could still be an interesting twist to have her as a Black Ajah but I still think she would work much better as the show's version of Elaida.

3 minutes ago, Infidel said:

Couple of questions for a non-book reader that doesn't mind spoilers:

- Why are Siuan and Moiraine hiding their plans from the wider Aes Sedai? Isn't the whole point of the Aes Sedai to defeat the Dark One? Or is their role more to control and eliminate male channelers?

Because the Aes Sedai aren't on the same page what to do with the Dragon Reborn once they find him. Keep in mind that in the books it is clear that he is male from the start, so the Reds might want to gentle him immediately, before he can fulfill his destiny. Others might want to use/control him in a way that would make it more difficult for him to succeed.

Moiraine/Siuan want to guide the Dragon in a subtle way, giving him more freedom than their sisters would.

3 minutes ago, Infidel said:

- Are Black Ajah a surprise revealed later in the books? I assume these are Aes Sedai that go rogue and support the Big Bad?

The Black Ajah are an evil secret Ajah within the White Tower itself. They are followers of the Dark One pretending to be sisters of the other Ajahs. In the books the first Black Ajah to show up and be revealed is Liandrin in book 2 - but she is a completely different character there and it might be that the show Liandrin isn't a Black Ajah.

3 minutes ago, Infidel said:

- Will the Forsaken come up again? (I think these were the idols the sad Warder was praying to?) They sound interesting...sort of like the Taken in the Black Company series? Sub-Dark One boss fights?

The Forsaken will come up again. If the show follows the book plot then two Forsaken will show up at the Eye, and Rand will also confront a third - Ishamael, the guy with the burning eyes, the gang already met in their dreams. He is effectively the leader of the Forsaken, the most powerful evil channeler.

The Forsaken are immortal followers of the Dark One from the Age of Legends who were sealed away with him and who can escape their prison long before the Dark One himself. They all know the Dragon from his previous incarnation as Lews Therin Telamon and have various personal issues with him.

3 minutes ago, Infidel said:

- Are non-channeling supernatural powers like Perrin's a known thing in the world? Moiraine seemed to imply it might just be an unknown manifestation of Dragon Reborn powers?

In the books that's a weirdo and very ancient talent that started to come back recently. There is at least one other sem-important character with the talent who acts as a mentor for Perrin for a time.

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1 hour ago, fionwe1987 said:

I was amused at that scene because I could feel Lord Varys preening through time :rofl:

For me, causes always translated to politics. And that made it perfectly reasonable they focussed on information gathering. But if they had to dumb it down for the show, I'm fine with it.

I wouldn't say "always", but literally most every "cause" we get any detail about is a political one where they see changing the political landscape as something that will promote justice.

One half of the "cause" thing is that they're basically the questing paladins, looking for a problem to solve, the other half is they are seen as the most political, scheming bunch of Sisters around. So, yeah, they are the CIA in Jordan's books. :P Or maybe the IMF is a more appropriate fictional organization. 

And the books already establish that the head of each Ajah's spy network and the heads of the Ajahs collect the material and send selected portions to the Amyrlin and the Sitters that they believe are of importance to the Tower as a whole. As far as that goes, I thought Jordan was creating a very interesting (and pretty much unique in fantasy) approach to competing intelligence bureaucracies massaging information to attempt to nudge the government in the direction they want. Remember, he served in the Vietnam War, he likely had a lot of views on the various activities the CIA, military intelligence, etc. were up to vis-a-vis the war and how they communicated it to the government.

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This last episode was definitely better than the fifth. I enjoyed the Moiraine/Aes Sedai politics angle and I'm glad that's getting some focus.

On the other hand... As a whole, they're really not doing a good job of getting you invested in an ensemble cast. Rand and Mat have done nothing for about three whole episodes. It's really hard to care about reunion scenes since the characters spent so little time together early in the season. And it's not like these episodes are so packed with cool stuff that there's no room for character work. There's been plenty of filler, even in the best episodes, but most noticably the Steppenwolf plotline from last episode (yaya, I know that's not his name, but I don't care enough to google him and find out). And so I go into these last couple of episodes with little investment in any of the Two Rivers crew but Nynaeve and Mat. But then...

Damn, when people said that the Mat actor was leaving, I didn't expect it to be in the middle of the season! This is nobody's fault, but it's a real pity, because Mat was by far the best actor of the Two Rivers folks. That's quite a loss for the show.

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2 hours ago, Infidel said:

Couple of questions for a non-book reader that doesn't mind spoilers:

- Why are Siuan and Moiraine hiding their plans from the wider Aes Sedai? Isn't the whole point of the Aes Sedai to defeat the Dark One? Or is their role more to control and eliminate male channelers?

There's two parts to this. One is that the Aes Sedai on the whole may want to capture, control or worse, gentle, the guy before they're even sure he's the Dragon Reborn.

But secondarily, they are the only two people who know that the Black Ajah started a pogrom that killed 10,000 men and boys in the first few years after the Dragon was reborn, in a quest to kill him before he becomes a threat. So they're extremely worried that this shadowy organization of unknown size and power would kill the Dragon Reborn if they don't play their cards close to their chest initially. 

2 hours ago, Infidel said:

- Are Black Ajah a surprise revealed later in the books? I assume these are Aes Sedai that go rogue and support the Big Bad?

They're revealed fairly early, but not all Aes Sedai believe in their existence for a good long while.

2 hours ago, Infidel said:

- Will the Forsaken come up again? (I think these were the idols the sad Warder was praying to?) They sound interesting...sort of like the Taken in the Black Company series? Sub-Dark One boss fights?

They're major antagonists thought the series. 

2 hours ago, Infidel said:

- Are non-channeling supernatural powers like Perrin's a known thing in the world? Moiraine seemed to imply it might just be an unknown manifestation of Dragon Reborn powers?

Yes they're known, some fairly common, some rare, and making a comeback. 

2 hours ago, Infidel said:

- Is the mystery of who the Dragon Reborn is a thing at all in the books?

 

Yes, to the characters, especially Moiraine and Lan. But we are able to figure it out very very soon (like, first chapter of the books soon).

2 hours ago, Ran said:

I wouldn't say "always", but literally most every "cause" we get any detail about is a political one where they see changing the political landscape as something that will promote justice.

One half of the "cause" thing is that they're basically the questing paladins, looking for a problem to solve, the other half is they are seen as the most political, scheming bunch of Sisters around. So, yeah, they are the CIA in Jordan's books. :P Or maybe the IMF is a more appropriate fictional organization. 

And the books already establish that the head of each Ajah's spy network and the heads of the Ajahs collect the material and send selected portions to the Amyrlin and the Sitters that they believe are of importance to the Tower as a whole. As far as that goes, I thought Jordan was creating a very interesting (and pretty much unique in fantasy) approach to competing intelligence bureaucracies massaging information to attempt to nudge the government in the direction they want. Remember, he served in the Vietnam War, he likely had a lot of views on the various activities the CIA, military intelligence, etc. were up to vis-a-vis the war and how they communicated it to the government.

Yeah the Ajahs all having their own filters on what kind of info they collect and send is very interesting. It's also why it makes sense the Blues have the best network. The Greys care about wars and legal disputes which they work to resolve, so it's not like they have a bad network, but the Blues have a broad, general purpose network. They don't have one goal for the entire Ajah, so they collect as much information as they can go guide their decisions. RJ says there are individual Blue sisters with networks comparable to some of the other Ajahs (the Whites are noted to have an abysmal network, which makes sense). 

The Amyrlin has a great network of her own, too, of course. Slow as some of the later books are, you do get interesting glimpses of the Ajahs trying to influence both Egwene and Elaida with the information they send.

Some interesting differences in what the Greens and the Grey's focus on, later:

Quote

Another problem was that the Ajahs saw different things as having paramount importance, and largely ignored anything else. The Greens, for example, were particularly concerned over tales of Borderland armies near New Braem, hundreds of leagues from the Blight they were supposed to be guarding. Their report talked of the Borderlanders and only the Borderlanders, as if something had to be done and done now. Not that they suggested anything, or so much as hinted, yet frustrations came through in the cramped, hasty handwriting that spidered urgently across the page.

...

While the Greens concentrated on the Borderlanders, the Grays focused south at present. Every Ajah was fascinated by the reports from Illian and Tear of large numbers of wilders among the Sea Folk, which they found interesting, if true, though there seemed strong doubt that it could be true, or else sisters would have known about it before this. After all, how could such a thing be hidden? No one mentioned that they had just accepted what they saw on the surface and never looked deeper. The Grays, though, were fascinated by the continued Seanchan threat to Illian and the recently begun siege of the Stone of Tear. Wars and threats of war always mesmerized Grays, since they were dedicated to ending strife. And to extending their influence, of course; every time the Grays stopped a war with a treaty, they increased the influence of all Aes Sedai, but of Grays most of all. The Seanchan seemed beyond negotiation, however, at least by Aes Sedai, and the Grays’ outraged sense of being thwarted came through in curt words about Seanchan incursions across the border and the increasing forces being gathered by Lord Gregorin, the Steward in Illian for the Dragon Reborn, a title that was a matter of some concern in itself. Tear had its own Steward for the Dragon Reborn, the High Lord Darlin Sisnera, and he was besieged in the Stone by nobles who refused to accept Rand. It was a very strange siege. The Stone had its own docks and Darlin’s enemies could not cut off supplies even holding the rest of the city as they did, and they seemed content to sit and wait in any event. Or perhaps they just could not see what to do next. Only the Aiel had ever taken the Stone by assault, and no one had ever starved it out. The Grays had some hopes in Tear.

 

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8 hours ago, Ran said:

I wouldn't say "always", but literally most every "cause" we get any detail about is a political one where they see changing the political landscape as something that will promote justice.

One half of the "cause" thing is that they're basically the questing paladins, looking for a problem to solve, the other half is they are seen as the most political, scheming bunch of Sisters around. So, yeah, they are the CIA in Jordan's books. :P Or maybe the IMF is a more appropriate fictional organization.

It is still pretty clear that the Ajah who do the actual political heavy-lifting should have their own spy network. And since causes are not exactly 'intelligence gathering' the thing there doesn't seem very well conceived - as are the Ajah in general.

Whatever 'cause' you espouse - since intelligence-gathering as such isn't that cause - you don't really need a large spy network. Unlike those Aes Sedai whose very existence is defined by politics and diplomacy. The issue isn't so much that the Blues have a large spy network - it is that they have the largest. And the show fixed that very nicely.

It is kind of hilarious how little impact the Grays have on the story when their very raison d'être should be to have sufficient information to their jobs effectively. Considering their profession and interests they should have had the most Amyrlins in living memory, not the Blues who are not politicians.

Also, the Greens should have agents all over the place in the Borderlands and close to the Blight to know what the Shadowspawn are doing, etc.

8 hours ago, Ran said:

And the books already establish that the head of each Ajah's spy network and the heads of the Ajahs collect the material and send selected portions to the Amyrlin and the Sitters that they believe are of importance to the Tower as a whole. As far as that goes, I thought Jordan was creating a very interesting (and pretty much unique in fantasy) approach to competing intelligence bureaucracies massaging information to attempt to nudge the government in the direction they want. Remember, he served in the Vietnam War, he likely had a lot of views on the various activities the CIA, military intelligence, etc. were up to vis-a-vis the war and how they communicated it to the government.

That doesn't fit at all with an organization which is 3,000 years old in its present form ... an organization that has a single head.

The idea that after all that time the Amyrlin Seat would still grant the Ajahs sufficient funding for their little side projects is ... pretty far-fetched. The organization has a centralist rule, so, over the centuries, power would inevitably shift more and more to the Amyrlin Seat and the Hall, away from the individual Ajah.

But more importantly, having an elected ruler serving for life for 3,000 years would have invitably led to the Amyrlin Seat - and the Hall as a body - to form institutions like secret agencies which are subject to them, and not the heads of the various Ajahs.

Perhaps there would remain spy networks only beholden to the various Ajahs ... but they would be outfunded by the official secret service of the White Tower run by the Amyrlin Seat herself.

Jordan's setting would make more sense if the Amyrlin were only a figurehead ... but that is clearly not the case.

It is also kind of silly in context to assume the divisions between the Ajahs would survive for thousands of years when the new generations only join an Ajah when taking their oaths and not before.

All their formative years they are just novices/Accepted, none belonging to any Ajah, so no Ajah-based divisions can develop among them. Yet we are to believe that adult women entering that circus just perpetuate this nonsense for 3,000 years when all of the friends they made before taking their Oaths might belong to different Ajahs?

Not to mention that the system even allows that sisters who deeply hate each other might end up in the same Ajah ... which means animosities from the training days would also be carried into the various Ajahs themselves, causing friction and hatred among them, rather than helping to enshrine the weirdo conflict along the borders of the different Ajahs for future generations.

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Fionwe - I'm expecting the content from TSR to be in the 3rd season, so it doesn't seem that far to me. One more season of the difficult early period then into the more straight forward part.

Between looking at the speed of this season, and knowing they realistically need to lose 5-6 books compared to the season count (IE 14 books into ~8 seasons) I'll be shocked if season 2 doesn't merge TGH and TDR into a new form. 

I know they'll get to merge other books later in the series, like I'd expect the cleansing and it's aftermath to fit into 2 episodes of visual story telling, but this seems like another spot to do it.

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32 minutes ago, Arakasi said:

A lot of Jordans stuff didn’t make a lot of sense. They were very flavorful though but at times not the most logically thought out. (In my opinion at least) Probably why I’m not as resistant to changes that others are.

From what I recall - the Reds actually still want 'payback' for the gentling of a Red Amyrlin taking placing in Hawkwing's days a thousand years ago. That's just silly pettiness, even if you take the extended lifespan of the Aes Sedai into account.

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The Ajahs have the same issues the countries in the Westland have. He slaps some very broad categories on big things to differentiate them. This is where the Asian looking people are, this county’s military is all heavy cavalry, this is the Spanish country, the French country, the country that sells this specific goods, etc. Pathfinder does much the same with Golarion and you can also sorta call it Civilization style of world building. Slap a military unit and a civil tech and give them some unique worker and voila world building! David Eddings was also quite guilty of this in all his fantasy works.
 

Real world tends to be a bit more messy. If someone has a dominant military style others tend to copy it. Natural resources are generally a bit more spread out. Organizations tend to not be so specific that they’d be okay with other orgs doing things from a different angle. The nations being so segregated racially don’t really make sense since it’s a few thousand years removed from a global megalopolis. (And with how many times it’s happened, probably everyone should have brown hair/eyes.)

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8 hours ago, Arakasi said:

The Ajahs have the same issues the countries in the Westland have. He slaps some very broad categories on big things to differentiate them. This is where the Asian looking people are, this county’s military is all heavy cavalry, this is the Spanish country, the French country, the country that sells this specific goods, etc. Pathfinder does much the same with Golarion and you can also sorta call it Civilization style of world building. Slap a military unit and a civil tech and give them some unique worker and voila world building! David Eddings was also quite guilty of this in all his fantasy works.
 

Real world tends to be a bit more messy. If someone has a dominant military style others tend to copy it. Natural resources are generally a bit more spread out. Organizations tend to not be so specific that they’d be okay with other orgs doing things from a different angle. The nations being so segregated racially don’t really make sense since it’s a few thousand years removed from a global megalopolis. (And with how many times it’s happened, probably everyone should have brown hair/eyes.)

My biggest problem has always been the large swaths of abandoned, or at least, unclaimed land. Jordan mentions there used to be nations that collapsed because of one reason or another without giving much detail. I can only attribute it to an actual lack of natural resources in these parts, because otherwise the existing nations would have fought over the land constantly and the borders would have been a lot closer to each other.

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