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The Wheel of Time: Jane Farstrider Herself (Book Spoilers)


Ran

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10 hours ago, Arakasi said:

The Ajahs have the same issues the countries in the Westland have. He slaps some very broad categories on big things to differentiate them

Yeah, I've always thought of his worldbuilding as broad, but shallow. There are a few exceptions - the Aiel are very well fleshed out, but sometimes too much so. Kind of like the one power. A lot of it seemed random just to be random - X number of women can link but not past Y where they need a man and then you can go to z etc - that kind of thing.

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While I definitely think there's a profusion of cultures and concepts and structures, some more thinly developed than others, in the books, the sheer number of words for them still ends up giving them some semblance of depth. 

That may be one of the things that's been bugging me about the show, actually. RJ could afford to throw in a smorgasbord of fantasy cities and worlds in the books, but getting even as much of it on screen as the writers have tried to do has meant not one has had enough time devoted to it to make it feel interesting, in the show. Everything from Shadar Logoth to Ogier have felt awfully thin. Tar Valon and the White Tower are probably the only places which have any depth in the show, so far. 

And I don't think there was any way they could do that for everything anyway. I'd rather they cut even further and focus more time on developing some concepts instead of perfunctory explorations of everything in the books.

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The show was always going to feel thin to fans of the books. If you thought different you were kidding yourself. I (and other YouTube reviewers I watch who like it) are rather surprised the first season is actually lining up with the first book and that they are giving us the Eye of the World similar to how it is in the books. They have slowed down the show to explore the main characters and themes more but now they have to shove 13 600+ page books in the remaining seven seasons.

Sure they could have cut 20 minutes of warder stuff from episode five and given that to the kids but that is not going to fix anything who is measuring against what they have in the books. And you can’t have it like the books where first couple books the pov is like four kids and then later the pov is dozens. They’ve chosen for good reason to give more screen time to Moiraine and Lan and the tower now.
 

Regardless Wot as written is utterly unsuited to be adapted to the screen in live filming. It’s just too many locations, too many characters, too big a scale and way too much exposition done by narrator or internal monologue.
 

Anime could work since they could then do it for cheaper and not deal with actors aging. But live as they’re doing it is going to demand massive cuts. Characters will be cut or merged.  Plot points smushed together or cut entirely. If you came in here hoping for a faithful adaptation of the books you came in with some unrealistic expectations.

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For the guys who know stuff - do the Browns (Verin aside, of course) ever contribute anything of note to the plot in future books?

And, more importantly, can anybody name any important philosophic contribution of the Whites who are supposed to be 'philosophers'.

As I said, the Grays, Whites, and Browns could also include non-channelers in their ranks, heping them doing scholarly stuff, philosophy, politics, and diplomacy. None of their professions seem to imply they have to be able to channel to excel at their professions.

The only Ajah who actually need channelers seem to be the Yellow and Green - the Reds could also have non-channeler man-haters in their ranks, helping them to capture male channelers, the Blues could work with mundane folks who also like to have 'causes', and so on.

25 minutes ago, Arakasi said:

Regardless Wot as written is utterly unsuited to be adapted to the screen in live filming. It’s just too many locations, too many characters, too big a scale and way too much exposition done by narrator or internal monologue.

Anime could work since they could then do it for cheaper and not deal with actors aging. But live as they’re doing it is going to demand massive cuts. Characters will be cut or merged.  Plot points smushed together or cut entirely. If you came in here hoping for a faithful adaptation of the books you came in with some unrealistic expectations.

Actually, WoT can only profit narrative-wise from massive cuts and changes. A lot of scenes are badly written and a huge waste of time. If anyone would actually bother to include all the interactions Lanfear has with the gang it would be unbearable, for instance.

And locations are mostly superficial, too. Jordan always has his characters hang out in some inn - you can condense that to just one inn rather than the dozens he has. The Caemlyn inn plot, for instance, could have worked just as well with the Tar Valon where they had the meeting with Loial.

It wouldn't actually change the story if they condensed, say, five inns to just one for the story. A dozen villages to one, and so on.

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3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

For the guys who know stuff - do the Browns (Verin aside, of course) ever contribute anything of note to the plot in future books?

And, more importantly, can anybody name any important philosophic contribution of the Whites who are supposed to be 'philosophers'.

As I said, the Grays, Whites, and Browns could also include non-channelers in their ranks, heping them doing scholarly stuff, philosophy, politics, and diplomacy. None of their professions seem to imply they have to be able to channel to excel at their professions.

Saerin, a Sitter for the Browns, takes charge of the group that is trying to root out the Black Ajah in the Tower. Unfortunately, the group is largely made irrelevant in Sanderson's books. The Browns are also generally the ones who know all the laws in the books best, and there is a badly written scene in one of Sanderson's books where a Brown nearly foils one of Egwene's schemes.

I thought the Whites were more on the lines of cold logic and reasoning, not so much philosophy. But no, I can't think of anything specific.

It would be nice if the AS of the these Ajahs you mentioned would at least seek out Warders who had a mind for their subject of interest, and not just be guys who fight well.

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8 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

Saerin, a Sitter for the Browns, takes charge of the group that is trying to root out the Black Ajah in the Tower. Unfortunately, the group is largely made irrelevant in Sanderson's books. The Browns are also generally the ones who know all the laws in the books best, and there is a badly written scene in one of Sanderson's books where a Brown nearly foils one of Egwene's schemes.

I thought the Whites were more on the lines of cold logic and reasoning, not so much philosophy. But no, I can't think of anything specific.

It would be nice if the AS of the these Ajahs you mentioned would at least seek out Warders who had a mind for their subject of interest, and not just be guys who fight well.

I think we see several Brown Warders who do have a more scholarly bent (though in look more than action, since they never get to be much in the way of characters). I agree, seeing more types of Warders would be nice.

Verin and Saerin end up being the only Browns that matter. While the Black Ajah hunt is definitely weirdly sidelined, that group does get colored by Egwene, and become her strongest supporters in the reunited Tower, so I guess there's that.

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8 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

Saerin, a Sitter for the Browns, takes charge of the group that is trying to root out the Black Ajah in the Tower. Unfortunately, the group is largely made irrelevant in Sanderson's books. The Browns are also generally the ones who know all the laws in the books best, and there is a badly written scene in one of Sanderson's books where a Brown nearly foils one of Egwene's schemes.

So it basically boils down to them giving some cues, no?

8 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

I thought the Whites were more on the lines of cold logic and reasoning, not so much philosophy. But no, I can't think of anything specific.

Well, 'logic' is worth even less during the apocalypse, so I guess they are a complete waste of time.

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Just watched episodes 5 and 6 together. I really hate that they're releasing episodes on a weekly basis, and I feel the show might be way more watchable if one could watch more episodes in a single sitting. The scenes are really hit and miss, and it's easier to dismiss the weaker ones when you can just enjoy the overall story.

Right from the start of episode 5, I thought the graves were too shallow (this is a world with a lot of wild animals), and also, whose were all these bodies supposed to be?
The Whitecloaks really aren't working for me. Valda is needlessly sadistic, and the torture scene seemed straight out of a mediocre TV show, with the bad guy's cruelty angering the main characters until they off him (though I assume he didn't actually die). Also, not sure about the way the wolves' attack is shown, because Whitecloaks shouldn't have been that easy to take down: surely some of them should be able to defend themselves properly against wolves?
Lan's grief was too extreme in my book. I mean, Lan Mandragoran, screaming to the sky and showing his chest? Too much.
All in all, though I see what they shot for (foreshadowing Lan becoming Nynaeve's warder), episode 5 felt relatively weak and cheap.

By contrast, I liked how they covered the Tower politics. There was some subtlety there at least. Of course, knowing that Siuan and Moiraine were working together from the start probably spoiled the reveal that they are actually lovers.
Not sure I liked the relationship between Moiraine and Siuan though. While their complicity was well portrayed, Moiraine asking Siuan to get on her knees stood out for me. Sophie Okonedo and Rosamund Pike have a lot of presence and manage to sell it, but it seemed obvious to me that the actresses do not actually have physical attraction to one another.
Otoh, I thought it amusing that they took care to make post-sex Moiraine seem noticeably happier and relaxed (is it me, or did they even put more red on her cheeks?).

Really didn't like Loial's looks, though the acting and dialogue somehow made up for it imho.

It did feel like Moiraine was teleporting all over the place. Generally speaking, many small details make it hard for me to be immersed in the show. At the end of episode 6, it seemed a bit ridiculous that Loial would arrive first, on an obviously slow horse, while the others clearly had faster mounts and came galloping.

On the plus side, there were many scenes and interactions that did work. The acting and special effects are very decent, the sceneries beautiful, the music great. The world-building continues, but the show remains entertaining.
Nonetheless, I'm left wondering whether I'd be as interested had I not read the books. It's obvious this is a world with a lot of depth, and yet some scenes seem cheap and/or poorly written. They really need the final two episodes to land.

 

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You’d probably enjoy it far more if you’ve not read the books. By all accounts the show is doing a very good job of drawing people into the books. EotW book sales are way up. It’s harder to nitpick when you have nothing to compare it against. Of the things you mentioned in your post most of them come from comparisons to expectation of the books. 
 

For me I like some of the changes you find jarring. I find book Lan to be overall boring and trite and have no understanding of what Nynaeve saw in him or any sign of charisma between the characters. Something the show already has done quite a bit better.

On the whitecloaks sure they’ve been shown to be overly sadistic so far but in the books they were pretty much a joke so I like the more threatening aspect they have here.

Not saying I love everything here. The guessing on the dragon doesn’t make sense when you have to cut one of the characters out of a couple episodes due to casting changes. Fine idea just sabotaged by reality. I’d like to have a bit more Rand and Mat and ten minutes less of Steppin. Been quite happy with all the women and Perrin though. But I can see the reality of changes they have to make because of things like budget and trying to flesh out important concepts in the world.

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28 minutes ago, Arakasi said:

Of the things you mentioned in your post most of them come from comparisons to expectation of the books.

For me I like some of the changes you find jarring. I find book Lan to be overall boring and trite and have no understanding of what Nynaeve saw in him or any sign of charisma between the characters. Something the show already has done quite a bit better.

I can't quite agree. I don't mind that they changed Lan, and I agree it's for the best. But the scene was emotionally powerful enough without the final scream and chest-bearing.
It's the "over-the-top" quality of it that I find jarring, not the characterization.

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40 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

I can't quite agree. I don't mind that they changed Lan, and I agree it's for the best. But the scene was emotionally powerful enough without the final scream and chest-bearing.
It's the "over-the-top" quality of it that I find jarring, not the characterization.

My interpretation of the scene is that it was a wailing ritual so it was meant to be overblown. The old Warder says Lan will be the one to express all their grief.

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Can someone explain the situation with the actor for Mat leaving the show?  I can't find much information other than "he left the show".  But the "why", while maybe interesting, isn't exactly what I'm asking.  Reading the comments here, it seems the end of this most recent episode was re-filmed to explain his absence in the last two episodes.  But didn't he film the whole first season?  Didn't he film scenes for the last two episode - including, presumably, scenes in The Ways, and with all the other characters?  Did they re-shoot everything for the last two episodes, or are we going to see some awkward editing?

On a different topic...I see a lot of discussion about the show building up the mystery of who the DR is - good or bad - and how Rand hasn't been featured much.  Some significant changes have already been introduced...any chance they're really going to throw us a curve and actually change who the DR is?
 

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6 minutes ago, HokieStone said:

Can someone explain the situation with the actor for Mat leaving the show?  I can't find much information other than "he left the show".  But the "why", while maybe interesting, isn't exactly what I'm asking.  Reading the comments here, it seems the end of this most recent episode was re-filmed to explain his absence in the last two episodes.  But didn't he film the whole first season?  Didn't he film scenes for the last two episode - including, presumably, scenes in The Ways, and with all the other characters?  Did they re-shoot everything for the last two episodes, or are we going to see some awkward editing?
 

The last 2 episodes were filmed much later because of the Covid lockdowns. It appears the actor left the show during that break. No reason has been officially revealed, and I am not aware of any gossip.

7 minutes ago, HokieStone said:

On a different topic...I see a lot of discussion about the show building up the mystery of who the DR is - good or bad - and how Rand hasn't been featured much.  Some significant changes have already been introduced...any chance they're really going to throw us a curve and actually change who the DR is?
 

If they did that, I think the book readers would truly riot. Besides they've already given Rand his book background, and one of remaining episodes will even show events from 20 years ago. 

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40 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

The last 2 episodes were filmed much later because of the Covid lockdowns. It appears the actor left the show during that break. No reason has been officially revealed, and I am not aware of any gossip.

Ah, ok...that makes sense now if there was a long COVID break before filming the last few episodes.

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On your comment about Rand and who is the dragon well go look at Wertheads spoiler from two pages ago. I think any worry of that happening has gone out the window. Not like I think that was ever on the table. They just made a choice to give other characters more screen time in season one. I’m sure we’ll see enough of Rand by the time it’s done.

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7 hours ago, Rippounet said:

and yet some scenes seem cheap 

The cinematography and lighting of most scenes is pretty poor and is behind a lot of what people have remarked on. There was a recent /r/television thread asking people what they thought of the show and the top-voted thread was all about the problem with how they've lit things, and someone shared this small Youtuber's video that I think pretty effectively and concisely explains the problem with the lighting:

I really don't understand how the lighting and cinematography of the show came out as it did. I can only speculate that Judkins stuck to the setups he saw being used for Marvel's Agents of SHIELD which was a show made on a third of the per-episode budget of WoT and in an entirely different kind of milieu , and that others couldn't steer him away. The chief cinematographer who lit half the episodes, David Moxine has a handful of award nominations to his credit (and a win in 2007 for an episode of Smallville), so he's not unfamiliar with how to light things well... though admittedly, for the most part his last decade has been fallow of awards, so perhaps he's become less ambitious.

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5 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

My interpretation of the scene is that it was a wailing ritual so it was meant to be overblown. The old Warder says Lan will be the one to express all their grief.

Ah, fair enough.

Still don't like the (final scream of that) scene though :P, but at least now it's just a question of taste.

4 hours ago, HokieStone said:

On a different topic...I see a lot of discussion about the show building up the mystery of who the DR is - good or bad - and how Rand hasn't been featured much.  Some significant changes have already been introduced...any chance they're really going to throw us a curve and actually change who the DR is?

Not a chance, since Rand recognized Dragonmount.
 

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