The Return and Role of Rickon Stark.

[three-eyed monkey]

I wanted to revive this thread because it relates to another discussion where I argue that Sansa will not be coming north from the Vale, as expected, but will be returning to King's Landing instead. Naturally, some people disagree and argue that Sansa will indeed be coming north.

In this thread I argue that Stannis will win the North, thanks to Davos and Rickon, given that Jon has temporarily been removed from the board and Bran is still on the missing list for now. I don't think it's a coincidence that Jon and Bran are out of the picture at this time, as their presence would nullify Rickon's potential role, as well as that of Davos.

I'm curious as to how people who believe Sansa is coming north, see her fitting into the northern question?

 

[Frey family reunion]

On 12/6/2021 at 2:32 PM, BlackLightning said:

Good stuff but you're forgetting something important...

Sansa.

Not only is her resurgence going to naturally disrupt any plan Stannis makes (as well as all those of the Boltons) but she will be the one who will wield the most control over Rickon. Let's not forget how much she resembles her mother. Rickon - who has not seen his mother in years - will see her and instantly latch himself onto her. She might be the only one who can control wild, violent, possessive Rickon

Both of you might be right in a way.  It seems that Baelish is positioning Sansa to become a Winter Queen.  She has a claim to Winterfell, she is the daughter of a Tully, Baelish is the technical head of the Riverlands, and he is positioning Sansa into a marriage of the heir of the Vale assuming Sweet Robin is sacrificed.  In other words, Littlefinger may succeed where Robb Stark failed, and he may create a Northern kingdom separate from the Iron Throne consisting of the Vale, the Riverlands and the North.  And he may be looking to put his protege on its throne.

If so, there still needs to be a Lord of Winterfell.  Perhaps that’s where Rickon steps in.  He becomes one of the lords who bends the knee to his older sister Sansa, rather than whoever claims the Iron Throne.

[three-eyed monkey]

The problem with Sansa winning the north is that it ends Stannis' arc prematurely. By that I mean that there are essential questions Stannis must answer to complete his arc and to answer those questions he needs to first return to a position of strength, otherwise the questions become moot.

One of the main questions is, is Stannis someone who puts winning the throne ahead of saving the kingdom or is it the other way around? He says he had it wrong, he put his rights ahead of his duty until Davos set him straight, but saying it is one thing, words are wind, Stannis needs to prove it. As Aemon told Jon, it's easy to say you're honorable when there is nothing at stake, but there comes a day when it is not so easy, a day when every man must choose. That day can only come for Stannis if he is in a position to choose between winning the throne or saving the realm. If he never returns to a position of strength, then there is no choice because he can do neither.

If, on the other hand, Stannis wins the North, thanks to Rickon and Davos, then he will inevitably face that choice. Does he march north to the Wall to save the realm or south to King's Landing to win the throne?

If Sansa comes to power in the North, then obviously Stannis will not. You might say, so what? He's a spent force, he's done, his story is over. However, if that's the case then I would say Stannis' arc has come to an unsatisfactory conclusion because some of the character questions raised in his arc were never answered. I don't expect that from GRRM, not just in relation to Stannis but for any character.

That's why I believe, like Jon and Bran, Sansa has to be kept from the North for now. She must either stay in the Vale or, far more likely in my opinion, be returned to King's Landing against her will.

[BlackLightning]

On 3/16/2022 at 7:33 AM, three-eyed monkey said:

However, if that's the case then I would say Stannis' arc has come to an unsatisfactory conclusion because some of the character questions raised in his arc were never answered. I don't expect that from GRRM, not just in relation to Stannis but for any character.

That's why I believe, like Jon and Bran, Sansa has to be kept from the North for now. She must either stay in the Vale or, far more likely in my opinion, be returned to King's Landing against her will.

You talk about how Stannis' arc taking unsatisfactory turns and coming to unsatisfactory conclusions...but then you turn right around and say that Sansa being taken back to King's Landing against her will is a valid plot-point even though it is literally sending her all the way back to square 1.

I don't understand it.

If Sansa goes back to King's Landing, it's going happen because she wants to go and because it serves her purposes to do so. She's supposed to become a player of the game.

On 3/16/2022 at 7:33 AM, three-eyed monkey said:

there are essential questions Stannis must answer to complete his arc and to answer those questions he needs to first return to a position of strength, otherwise the questions become moot.

One of the main questions is, is Stannis someone who puts winning the throne ahead of saving the kingdom or is it the other way around? He says he had it wrong, he put his rights ahead of his duty until Davos set him straight, but saying it is one thing, words are wind, Stannis needs to prove it. As Aemon told Jon, it's easy to say you're honorable when there is nothing at stake, but there comes a day when it is not so easy, a day when every man must choose. That day can only come for Stannis if he is in a position to choose between winning the throne or saving the realm. If he never returns to a position of strength, then there is no choice because he can do neither.

I feel like this question has - for the most part - already been addressed and answered.

It's no longer a question of is Stannis someone who puts saving the kingdom above winning the throne--ultimately, he cares about winning the throne more than saving the kingdom but that's besides the point. The question is more about is if Stannis is someone who puts his rights above both his duty and the rights of others.

But Stannis has to face a reckoning for his abandonment of Ned Stark, his needless antagonization of Robb Stark and his kinslaying of Renly.

 

Something has to happen by the end of this book that will push Stannis out of the picture and restore the Starks.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

Sansa is obviously going to be the political mind of restored House Stark, and she will arrive in the North not knowing that Rickon is here or with Littlefinger believing that it's an impostor and planning to use Sansa to get the North to his side only to realize that it's the true Rickon. 

Jon is most surely going to be alive again and in Winterfell too when this happens.

[three-eyed monkey]

1 hour ago, BlackLightning said:

You talk about how Stannis' arc taking unsatisfactory turns and coming to unsatisfactory conclusions...but then you turn right around and say that Sansa being taken back to King's Landing against her will is a valid plot-point even though it is literally sending her all the way back to square 1.

I don't understand it.

If Sansa goes back to King's Landing, it's going happen because she wants to go and because it serves her purposes to do so. She's supposed to become a player of the game.

Not back to square 1.

In King's Landing, Sansa was used by Cersei, etc. as a pawn in a game she knew nothing about. Sansa has since been learning about the nature of the game and how it is played. Her character has progressed in that direction, and the test of how far she has come awaits her back in King's Landing, where her enemies like Cersei are. That's where Sansa will face her greatest test and will be forced to emerge as a player if she is to survive. That's where she will look like she's doomed but find a way to succeed. That's where she will interact again with characters like Cersei and Sandor and later Tyrion, all of whom are important to her own arc.

Now, one might say, Sansa will win the North and the Vale and then return to King's Landing as a player, as many readers expect. However, that route will sever the arcs of characters like Stannis. And, while there is a miniature game of thrones going on in the North right now, the main game is in King's Landing. Sansa could learn to play the game in a pro-Stark North, but the lessons would not nearly be as hard as what she will face in King's Landing.

Also, the battle for the North is taking place right now, between Stannis and the northern lords, with Davos and Rickon primed to play a role. Stannis is outside the walls of Winterfell now with the norther lords inside. Davos left for Skaagos before Wyman departed White Harbor, and a considerable amount of time has passed since then. Sansa's not even married to Harry yet so I doubt she would get north in time to take part.

2 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

I feel like this question has - for the most part - already been addressed and answered.

It's no longer a question of is Stannis someone who puts saving the kingdom above winning the throne--ultimately, he cares about winning the throne more than saving the kingdom but that's besides the point. The question is more about is if Stannis is someone who puts his rights above both his duty and the rights of others.

No that's not the question. Stannis considers himself the rightful king, the throne is his by law, he doesn't care about the rights of others. There's no such thing really in a feudal setting.

The question is, is Stannis a true king or a false king? True kings put their duty ahead of their rights. False kings put their rights ahead of their duty. Stannis says he puts his duty first, having been set straight by Davos, but characters need to prove their positions with actions, particularly in the case of non-pov characters, otherwise the reader does not know whether they were lying or not.

2 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

But Stannis has to face a reckoning for his abandonment of Ned Stark, his needless antagonization of Robb Stark and his kinslaying of Renly.

Stannis will face his reckoning. He'll win the north, prove that he cares more about winning the throne than saving the kingdom by marching south to King's Landing instead of north to the Wall, and by his actions prove that he is a false king. This will ultimately bring him into conflict with Dany who has lies to slay, and false kings to burn, etc. When Stannis is faced with dragons, he will need a dragon of his own, which sets up the burning of Shireen in an attempt to wake his own dragon from stone.

7 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Something has to happen by the end of this book that will push Stannis out of the picture and restore the Starks.

Stannis will be pushed out by the end of Winds or early Dream, depending on how quickly Dany can arrive. The resolution of main pov character-arcs like Sansa, Bran and Arya will happen at the climax of the series, naturally, which will come in the latter half of Dream.

6 hours ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

Sansa is obviously going to be the political mind of restored House Stark, and she will arrive in the North not knowing that Rickon is here or with Littlefinger believing that it's an impostor and planning to use Sansa to get the North to his side only to realize that it's the true Rickon. 

Jon is most surely going to be alive again and in Winterfell too when this happens.

So let's say Sansa gets an easy ride and goes back to help the Starks regain Winterfell. What then? Showdown with the Others in Winterfell and then on to king's landing to set the realm to right? I doubt it.

The Others are the very reason the factions of the realm must set their differences aside and come together. Dany dreamed of facing them on the Trident, which obviously can't happen if they are defeated at Winterfell. The show cannon was extremely disappointing in this respect and I wouldn't take it as a guide to where the books go. GRRM is on a different level than D&D when it comes to story-telling. He's been honing his craft for decades and is not going to make amateur writing mistakes like that. I don't know if we'll see the last book, but if we do it's not going to reach the same unsatisfying and senseless end the show reached.

Stannis will take the north and move south towards King's Landing, which will allow the Others advance from the north behind him. This way the whole realm will be threatened, the stakes will be raised, and all that good stuff that we should expect from a good story. Just watch all the action collapse on King's Landing over the next book and a half, including the north.

[The Young Maester]

If Rickon survives and arrives at white harbour safe and sound. I’d love to see littlefingers reaction to rickon being alive. It would literal alter all of his plans for sansa.

[BlackLightning]

3 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

Not back to square 1.

In King's Landing, Sansa was used by Cersei, etc. as a pawn in a game she knew nothing about. Sansa has since been learning about the nature of the game and how it is played. Her character has progressed in that direction, and the test of how far she has come awaits her back in King's Landing, where her enemies like Cersei are. That's where Sansa will face her greatest test and will be forced to emerge as a player if she is to survive. That's where she will look like she's doomed but find a way to succeed. That's where she will interact again with characters like Cersei and Sandor and later Tyrion, all of whom are important to her own arc.

Now, one might say, Sansa will win the North and the Vale and then return to King's Landing as a player, as many readers expect. However, that route will sever the arcs of characters like Stannis. And, while there is a miniature game of thrones going on in the North right now, the main game is in King's Landing. Sansa could learn to play the game in a pro-Stark North, but the lessons would not nearly be as hard as what she will face in King's Landing.

Also, the battle for the North is taking place right now, between Stannis and the northern lords, with Davos and Rickon primed to play a role. Stannis is outside the walls of Winterfell now with the norther lords inside. Davos left for Skaagos before Wyman departed White Harbor, and a considerable amount of time has passed since then. Sansa's not even married to Harry yet so I doubt she would get north in time to take part.

This is what you're not understanding.

If Sansa is abducted and forcibly taken back to King's Landing and then made to stay there for a period of time, then it is going backwards to square 1.

It is not progression; it's a regression.

She has to choose to go back to King's Landing if it is to be a progression. And more than just a couple of things need to unfold in order for her to want to go back to King's Landing, least of all when the Lannister-Tyrell machine is still in power.

Stannis' character arc is honestly coming to its end. Who knows how it will end? But the end is coming. Dragonstone and Storm's End are both lost. 

The arrival of Sansa (or Jon, for that matter) could end Stannis' arc, true, but who is to say that that's not supposed to happen.

Like I said, Stannis has a lot to answer for as far as Ned and Robb are concerned. I don't think people realize that the way he treated and talked about them has him on thin ice with the northmen. How do you think Wyman Manderly will react when he hears that Stannis used blood-magic (blood forcibly taken from his own kinsman, mind you) to curse Robb Stark?

St

3 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

No that's not the question. Stannis considers himself the rightful king, the throne is his by law, he doesn't care about the rights of others. There's no such thing really in a feudal setting.

The question is, is Stannis a true king or a false king? True kings put their duty ahead of their rights. False kings put their rights ahead of their duty. Stannis says he puts his duty first, having been set straight by Davos, but characters need to prove their positions with actions, particularly in the case of non-pov characters, otherwise the reader does not know whether they were lying or not.

Wrong. The rights of others are a thing in a feudal setting. Else, there would be no social contract between an overlord and his vassals...the vassals pay the overlord homage and the overlord protects and upholds the vassals.

As far as Stannis and co. know, Sansa is the rightful ruler of Winterfell and the North.

He is a hypocrite to not support Sansa. Not only does he refuse to support Sansa, he supports Jon (a bastard, as far as he knows) over Sansa...which makes him even more of a hypocrite seeing that his rightful position to the Iron Throne is being impeded and threatened by a bastard.

Is this the way a true king should act?

3 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

This will ultimately bring him into conflict with Dany who has lies to slay, and false kings to burn, etc. When Stannis is faced with dragons, he will need a dragon of his own, which sets up the burning of Shireen in an attempt to wake his own dragon from stone.

Now we're talking the same language.

I think Stannis' downfall will happen north of the Neck. But it'll be at the Nightfort rather than Winterfell which will have been snatched away from him by the Starks.

I think Nightfort is where we will see Stannis really decide that he cares about the Iron Throne much more than anything else. I think that blood-magic fire ritual will be the straw that broke the camel's back--in other words, I think that the magic will make the Wall collapse.

Then again, I'm not so sure that Stannis will actually be the one to sacrifice Shireen.

3 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

Stannis will be pushed out by the end of Winds or early Dream, depending on how quickly Dany can arrive.

If Stannis doesn't become a Night's King-type figure that allies with the Others in a last-ditch effort to take the Iron Throne, I'm thinking that it will happen in the Winds epilogue or the Dream prologue.

3 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

So let's say Sansa gets an easy ride and goes back to help the Starks regain Winterfell. What then? Showdown with the Others in Winterfell and then on to king's landing to set the realm to right? I doubt it.

No.

First of all, the North doesn't have the resources for any kind of true showdown with the Others. In other words, it's not a showdown if one side is getting steamrolled and curb-stomped without the other side breaking a sweat.

The Others can simply walk around Winterfell, leaving the castle to be besieged with zombies, darkness and subzero temperatures.

Meaning the northern lords and smallfolk can be braving a siege from within Winterfell at the same time that the most of the Others' strength can be inching beyond the Neck.

 

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

3 hours ago, The Young Maester said:

If Rickon survives and arrives at white harbour safe and sound. I’d love to see littlefingers reaction to rickon being alive. It would literal alter all of his plans for sansa.

Yep and that's not counting his reaction when Jon will enter the fray and once he hears than Bran may be alive  thus completely ruining his calculations. 

[three-eyed monkey]

 

15 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

This is what you're not understanding.

If Sansa is abducted and forcibly taken back to King's Landing and then made to stay there for a period of time, then it is going backwards to square 1.

It is not progression; it's a regression.

She has to choose to go back to King's Landing if it is to be a progression. And more than just a couple of things need to unfold in order for her to want to go back to King's Landing, least of all when the Lannister-Tyrell machine is still in power.

I disagree. Sansa thought she was going home to Winterfell when she left KL. She was tricked and taken to the Vale and had to become Alayne, but it did not stop her character progression. Arya was captured and taken to Harrenhal, but it did not stop her character progression. Jaime was captured at the whispering woods, and it marked the beginning of a new journey in which his character would begin to grow. It doesn't matter how a character is put into a difficult position, what matters is how that character responds to the position, that's where the potential for character growth lies.

In any story, characters pushed into more difficult circumstances have more potential to grow than characters who are in less difficult circumstances. That's why if you look at the stages of the hero's journey you will see words like trials, tests, ordeal or phrases like belly of the whale or the dragon's lair, etc.

If Sansa just goes back to being a scared and naive hostage, then I agree there will be no growth. However, I suggest she will go back to stand trial for Joffrey's murder, therefore the Lannister-Tyrell machine must still be in power at the time, and the clock is running for that axis. In a trial, Sansa stricken of allies and security, will have to fend for herself, just as Tyrion did. However, a trial would also act as a beacon for other character's whose arcs depend on Sansa, such as Sandor or Brienne and Jaime, to converge on King's Landing to defend her if it comes to trial by combat.

A trial puts Sansa's life on the line but also provides the mechanism to prove her innocence of the false accusation. A trial gives her agency and the potential to start gaining allies, while also pitching her against Cersei, her accuser, and Margery, a member of the guilty party. I suggest this miniature game of thrones will be the environment that Sansa starts playing in, but the arrival of Aegon will widen the scope of the game, as will the eventual arrival of Dany and Tyrion.

So there's lots of potential for Sansa to progress in King's Landing, particularly if she goes into a hostile environment against her will. I don't see the same potential to grow if she goes back to a pro-Stark north.

15 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Stannis' character arc is honestly coming to its end. Who knows how it will end? But the end is coming. Dragonstone and Storm's End are both lost. 

The arrival of Sansa (or Jon, for that matter) could end Stannis' arc, true, but who is to say that that's not supposed to happen.

Like I said, Stannis has a lot to answer for as far as Ned and Robb are concerned. I don't think people realize that the way he treated and talked about them has him on thin ice with the northmen. How do you think Wyman Manderly will react when he hears that Stannis used blood-magic (blood forcibly taken from his own kinsman, mind you) to curse Robb Stark?

Stannis expected to lose Storm's End and Dragonstone when he sailed north, at least that it was highly likely, but he sees a different route to the throne through the North and Iron Isles. Stannis will fight to the bitter end, and then some. I believe the crofter's village marks the bitter end for Stannis but we are about to see and then some. Stannis will win the North. I'm not saying the northern lords will be happy about it, but with Jon out of the picture Rickon is their liege lord.

Stannis was openly playing for Jon's sword, while the northern lord's were doing it secretly, but it was a contest nonetheless and the North was the prize. Jon has now been removed from the board. Rickon is now the key piece in the contest and that piece is going to be with Davos. I don't believe burning leeches had anything to do with Robb's death, it was just a trick by Mel, but I agree it adds a further wrinkle to the conflict between Stannis and the northern lords. Don't forget that Stannis had already declared Robb a traitor anyway, so there will never be an easy alliance between Stannis and the North.

The North want independence, they declared it under Robb and they were planning on continuing it through Robb's will. With Jon dead and Bran still missing, that now means independence under King Rickon, who is next in line according to the law. Stannis is opposed to northern independence. He considers the North to be part of his kingdom, and he hoped Jon would be the one to bend the knee and secure it for him as his Lord of Winterfell, Warden of the North, etc. With Jon now dead, Stannis needs Rickon to kneel and bring him the North. And what is Stannis offering in return? Restoration of House Stark to Winterfell and vengeance against the Freys and Lannisters, as Davos told Wyman. I am confident that this will appeal to Rickon, who will want vengeance for Robb and Ned.

In fact, I think it will appeal to other norther lords too. "The North remembers, Frey," is not an uncommon sentiment. Joining Stannis' cause does not mean ending northern independence, it just means postponing it. The northern lords are shrewd and patient and have already being playing Stannis and Roose against each other. I expect them to continue to play like that, by siding with Stannis at their liege lord's insistence. Why not march with Stannis at least as far as the Twins and avenge the Red Wedding? Maybe as far as Riverrun, or even King's Landing. After that, after that they're free to abandon the king and withdraw north of Moat Cailin again, to a North that's rid of both Roose and Stannis.

Of course, Stannis is not stupid so he will need to keep Rickon close as a hostage when he marches.

We should ask how Stannis' arc is connected to the story as a whole? What's the point of Stannis, or Rickon for that matter? The answer is their stories have points to make. By the climax of the story the true kings will succeed where false kings failed. Stannis is one of the false kings and he will demonstrate why false kings fail. He will do this by incorrectly answering the questions raised in his arc, the questions upon which the positive or negative resolution of his arc depends. The first relates to putting the realm ahead of the throne, and the other relates to the difference between sacrifice and true-sacrifice, which is self-sacrifice. Stannis will choose poorly on both counts, marching south for the throne instead of north to face the Others, and then by burning Shireen, which will lead to his doom. Therefore, the tale of Stannis is a cautionary tale that relates to Jon and Dany who will face similar dilemma's at the climax of the story.

It's the same with Rickon, who chooses vengeance and will meet his doom with Stannis. Again, a cautionary tale that relates to Arya and some others. The thematic point being made here is that vengeance is not a good choice, and characters who ultimately go that way will end with negative arcs.

17 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Wrong. The rights of others are a thing in a feudal setting. Else, there would be no social contract between an overlord and his vassals...the vassals pay the overlord homage and the overlord protects and upholds the vassals.

Yes, but Stannis believes he is the rightful king, the arbitrator in that social contract, and that empowers him to decide who has the right to Winterfell. If you're loyal you get rewarded, if you're treacherous you get punished. This agreement between powerful parties has nothing really to do with rights. Who could enforce these rights? It can only be the king or someone who usurpers the king and becomes the new king. Stannis would make Jon legit and give him Winterfell ahead of Sansa. Her rights have nothing to do with it. If she can bring what the king wants to the agreement, then her rights will be granted. If she can't, then they won't.

18 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

As far as Stannis and co. know, Sansa is the rightful ruler of Winterfell and the North.

He is a hypocrite to not support Sansa. Not only does he refuse to support Sansa, he supports Jon (a bastard, as far as he knows) over Sansa...which makes him even more of a hypocrite seeing that his rightful position to the Iron Throne is being impeded and threatened by a bastard.

Is this the way a true king should act?

I agree that he's a false king.

18 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Now we're talking the same language.

I think Stannis' downfall will happen north of the Neck. But it'll be at the Nightfort rather than Winterfell which will have been snatched away from him by the Starks.

I think Nightfort is where we will see Stannis really decide that he cares about the Iron Throne much more than anything else. I think that blood-magic fire ritual will be the straw that broke the camel's back--in other words, I think that the magic will make the Wall collapse.

Then again, I'm not so sure that Stannis will actually be the one to sacrifice Shireen.

Stannis already cares about the throne more than anything else, and the throne is south.

We're told that the Others cannot pass the Wall so long as the men of the Watch stay true. I think the spell that kept the Others back was broken in Jon XIII ADwD, not just by Jon but by Bowen Marsh and company too. 

When it comes to burning Shireen, you really just need to ask what is the most powerful story-telling choice GRRM could make in that respect and then ask yourself if you think he'll make it.

18 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

If Stannis doesn't become a Night's King-type figure that allies with the Others in a last-ditch effort to take the Iron Throne, I'm thinking that it will happen in the Winds epilogue or the Dream prologue.

The Night's King relates to choices blue-eyed Jon will have to make, not Stannis.

18 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

No.

First of all, the North doesn't have the resources for any kind of true showdown with the Others. In other words, it's not a showdown if one side is getting steamrolled and curb-stomped without the other side breaking a sweat.

The Others can simply walk around Winterfell, leaving the castle to be besieged with zombies, darkness and subzero temperatures.

Meaning the northern lords and smallfolk can be braving a siege from within Winterfell at the same time that the most of the Others' strength can be inching beyond the Neck.

That's a lot of inches to the Trident. Why would the Others just pass them by? How long do you think Winterfell can last in such conditions, given the difficulty Roose had maintaining his army there in conditions that were presumably not as bad as the long night?

Another possibility is that Stannis will march south, the Others will invade leaving no survivors in their wake, the northerners will have to migrate south seeking refuge, and that way all the action can collapse in the direction of King's Landing, as it is with every other significant strand of the story.

[Elegant Woes]

@three-eyed monkey So what if Sansa winning the North will end Stannis story? Also it’s rather presumptuous to assume his ending will be premature if he dies early on in TWOW? At the end of the day all Stannis is a third tier character whereas Sansa (and the other Starks) are the center and heroes of ASOIAF. Retaking the North/Winterfell is a storyline that can only be meaningful if it’s done by at least one Stark POV character.  No way will a third ranked character make the Starks secondary in their own story. It’s silly to assume otherwise. You are overblowing the importance of Stannis. 

[three-eyed monkey]

4 hours ago, Elegant Woes said:

@three-eyed monkey So what if Sansa winning the North will end Stannis story? Also it’s rather presumptuous to assume his ending will be premature if he dies early on in TWOW? At the end of the day all Stannis is a third tier character whereas Sansa (and the other Starks) are the center and heroes of ASOIAF. Retaking the North/Winterfell is a storyline that can only be meaningful if it’s done by at least one Stark POV character.  No way will a third ranked character make the Starks secondary in their own story. It’s silly to assume otherwise. You are overblowing the importance of Stannis. 

No I'm not overblowing the importance of Stannis. Sansa is a POV character and a main character and she is more important to the story than Stannis. If Stannis made Sansa secondary it would indeed be silly, but that's not the case.

Stannis is a secondary character, not a third-tier character. He has an arc. The questions set-up in his arc need to be answered, otherwise it will come to an unsatisfying conclusion and fail to make the point the author intends that character to make. His arc has a purpose in the story, it has points to make that inform the themes of the story. Those points will only be made if Stannis concludes the arc he's on. If his arc ends prematurely then the points will not be made.

If the only way to progress Sansa's arc was at the expense of Stannis' arc, then of course Sansa's arc would have to be prioritized, though that situation would point to a flaw in the story structure. But that is not the case. Stannis can still progress his arc to its resolution. So can Sansa. GRRM does not have to choose between them.

Stannis will win the North thanks to Rickon and Davos, and move towards answering the central thematic questions of his arc, which involve the definitions of a true king and of true sacrifice, questions he will answer incorrectly by marching south for the throne instead of north to defend the realm and then by burning Shireen, before he meets his doom. These same questions apply to other characters like Jon and Dany too, and they are the ones who will eventually answer the questions correctly in Dream. But first Stannis must fulfill the purpose of his arc by demonstrating where choosing incorrectly leads.

Rickon is also a secondary character, despite being a Stark, but he too has a purpose in the story. He will side with Stannis because he wants revenge for the Red Wedding and that is what Stannis is offering the North. As such, he too is choosing incorrectly and so he will also meet his doom with Stannis. This choice applies to Arya's central conflict. So Rickon's arc is to Arya what Stannis' arc is to Jon and Dany. These are secondary characters whose stories demonstrate the pitfalls of the choices the main characters will face when it comes to resolving their own arcs later.

Sansa going north would only interfere with all that. She doesn't need to go north, because the characters she needs to interact with to resolve her arc, like Cersei and Sandor, and characters who need to interact with her to resolve their arcs, like Brienne, are not in the North. Sansa is going to King's Landing against her will, courtesy of Ser Shadrich I'd imagine, to stand trial for the purple wedding. Cersei's there already. Sandor, Brienne and Jaime will go there to defend her. Tyrion will arrive eventually. Arya is going there too, in my opinion, as the remaining names on her list, like Cersei and Gregor and Ser Meryn are mostly there. All these characters have much to resolve amongst each other, and it's natural that the action collapses on a location where they all can interact.