Daemon , the Defiant's son and Rhaenaera's legacy in the current story

[EggBlue]

I've been wondering about a few different things that might not be all that far from each other so I put them all in this thread:) here are the topics:

• what was Daemon Blackfyre's reason to rebel so suddenly?
• how much influence did Daena have on her son? and did she approve what he was trying to achieve?
• what is Rhaenaera's legacy?and who won the Dance?
• the succession crisis in the ASOIAF

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Daemon I Blackfyre and the cause of his rushed rebellion feels like a mystery waiting to be unfold (perhaps in Fire&BloodII) ... 

we know why all his noble allies and his bastard brother joined him.... years after his death , we hear Daemon's supporters claiming that the war was for Daenarys. but even if Daemon & Daenerys were in love, by the time Daemon rose in rebellion, both were married for years and had their own families; why would he wait so long to become crossed over his lost love? 

Daemon's claim for the throne came from his father Aegon the Unworthy. and unworthy he was...an unworthy king, an unworthy husband , an unworthy brother and above all an unworthy father to all his children..true born or bastard. Aegon IV didn't even claim Daemon as his own son for twelve years and then it was at the height of his quarrels with his eldest son and after his wife and brother's deaths that Aegon finally recognized Daemon as his own, perhaps more to make his threats to Daeron more effective than anything else. he had threatened Daeron to set him aside in favor of one of his bastards.. but who would have accepted bastard son of a Bracken or Blackwood? though, a princess's bastard was a different matter entirely...and not long after that , Aegon decided to use the only bastard he could to win the support of Archon of Tyrosh.

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for all we know  , Daemon had no clue of his true parentage in his youth, making his mother Daena his only parent with any possible influence on him. the problem is we don't know anything about Daena after Baelor's death. therfore, we don't know how long she was around or if she was alive when Daemon rebelled and died. but we can be sure of this: she was alive till 176 (since she helped her sister Eleana with her pregnancy) and she definitely died before 220 when Eleana died. also, since unlike Eleana there is no mention of her marriage , she probably never wed after Baelor. she was rather an impressive woman for her time. she seemed close to her father and her brother Daeron, she wasn't meek by any means , she was a great horsewoman and archer and she fought fiercely for her rights. yet, sadly she was imprisoned for a decade by a brother who should have been her husband and ally.. her final defiant , Daemon, was in a way the key to her freedom. but Daemon alongside with her decade of isolation and general fears of another Dance of the Dragons was also a contributor factor in denying her of her queenship. was she angry at that? did she pass on her grudge against Viserys's line to her son? the son who could have become her Heir if she willed it as the queen?

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it is easy to forget that Daemon's claim could come from his mother as much as his father ,if not more. Daena and Daemon were from Aegon III 's line , while AegonIV and Daeron came from Viserys II. the irony here is that Aegon and Viserys were Rhaenaera Targaryen's sons, the WOMAN who fought for her rights to the throne all while she had 3 brothers. yet, after her death , her female descendants were not only passed over in favor of their younger brothers, but they were altogether ignored in the line of succession for favor of any male relative!.... this makes it even harder to tell who won the Dance! Aegon lived longer and was named king in history books but he didn't rule for more than a few months. Rhaenaera's line was preserved but no woman ever sat on the throne.

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and finally , what would it mean for the current story? if Aegon VI is a Targaryen there is no question in his claim... but even if he is a Blackfyre his claim could be disputable!!!.. if we follow Daena's line , Blackfyres have always been the rightful ruling family. and if not , that means we'd be favoring the agnatic-cognatic succession which means Aegon and Stannis , distant male relatives, will still be before Dany in the line of succession!

 

 

so, what do you guys think about all this  

[Moiraine Sedai]

What do I think about your theory? I disagree.  None of that matters because Daenerys can prove who she is. Something Aegon will never be able to do. Her big brother Viserys was the last Targaryen king and she was his heir.   Stannis is a distant relative who made a play for the crown and lost. Tyrion whipped his butt on He is also known as the lord who helped Jon Snow bring the Wildlings into Westeros.  He will be unpopular. Daenerys is the Mother Of Dragons, the Child Of Three. Any rule of succession is not as relevant in her case because she fulfilled the prophecy of the promised prince(ss) for the Targaryens.  Robert and his brothers already broke the rules of succession. It is no longer sacred. It is about power and proof . 

[EggBlue]

27 minutes ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

What do I think about your theory? I disagree.  None of that matters because Daenerys can prove who she is. Something Aegon will never be able to do. Her big brother Viserys was the last Targaryen king and she was his heir.   Stannis is a distant relative who made a play for the crown and lost. Tyrion whipped his butt on He is also known as the lord who helped Jon Snow bring the Wildlings into Westeros.  He will be unpopular. Daenerys is the Mother Of Dragons, the Child Of Three. Any rule of succession is not as relevant in her case because she fulfilled the prophecy of the promised prince(ss) for the Targaryens.  Robert and his brothers already broke the rules of succession. It is no longer sacred. It is about power and proof . 

that wasn't a theory! I was mostly looking forward to a discussion about Daena and Daemon..then about Rhaenaera and how Targaryen women had been treated so far and if that would change..... the last part was more of side note(more of a worry) to my ramblings about unfair fates of Daena , her son and Rhaenaera's legacy  I certainly hope for Dany to ascend the throne with her popularity intact, after all there had already been a Targaryen queen who was wrongly accused of being a second Maegor and there already is a mad queen in the story in Cersei. in my opinion, it won't be such good story with all the potential queens getting set aside unjustly or becoming mad.

[Mourning Star]

Just to address the first point, as I think it's extremely important and often overlooked, but I don't think Daemon just up and decided to rebel, I think his had was forced by Bloodraven trying to have him arrested.

Quote

In the end, years of such talk bore their fruit, and Daemon Blackfyre made his decision. Yet it was a decision he made rashly, for word soon reached King Daeron that Blackfyre meant to declare himself king within the turn of the moon. (We do not know how word came to Daeron, though Merion's unfinished The Red Dragon and the Black suggests that another of the Great Bastards, Brynden Rivers, was involved.) The king sent the Kingsguard to arrest Daemon before he could take his plans for treason any further. Daemon was forewarned, and with the help of the famously hot-tempered knight Ser Quentyn Ball, called Fireball, he was able to escape the Red Keep safely. Daemon Blackfyre's allies used this attempted arrest as a cause for war, claiming that Daeron had acted against Daemon out of no more than baseless fear. Others still named him Daeron Falseborn, repeating the calumny that Aegon the Unworthy himself was said to have circulated in the later years of his reign: that he had been sired not by the king but by his brother, the Dragonknight.

The World of Ice and Fire - The Targaryen Kings: Daeron II

We do not know any details.

But, this passage sounds like a very biased way of saying that the first act of war was taken by Daeron and Bloodraven, based on supposed "rumors".

Of particular note is the parallel that can be drawn between this event and the Mad King demanding the heads of Ned and Robert at the Start of Robert's Rebellion. Had Aerys won the war it's easy to imagine how the entire series of events could have been reframed in a similar way for the "histories".

Another "fun" detail here, that I'm not entirely sure is coincidence, but Quentyn Ball, Fireball, the man who saved Daemon from being arrested, was the master of arms at the Red Keep who instructed most of the princes and great bastards. He was promised a position on the Kingsguard, and made his wife join the silent sisters because of this (speaking of mistreated women...), but after Aegon the Unworthy died, his heir Daeron did not honor this promise and it was this Kingsguard, including Williem Wylde who "took his spot", whose attempted arrest Fireball spoiled here! He would later die before the Redgrass Field, murdered by a nameless archer I would be willing to bet was actually Bloodraven!

Edit: format, grammar, spelling and added the "fun" detail at the end!

[EggBlue]

2 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

Just to address the first point, as I think it's extremely important and often overlooked, but I don't think Daemon just up and decided to rebel, I think his had was forced by Bloodraven trying to have him arrested.

We do not know any details.

But, this passage sounds like a very biased way of saying that the first act of war was taken by Daeron and Bloodraven, based on supposed "rumors".

Of particular note is the parallel that can be drawn between this event and the Mad King demanding the heads of Ned and Robert at the Start of Robert's Rebellion. Had Aerys won the war it's easy to imagine how the entire series of events could have been reframed in a similar way for the "histories".

yeah , that was the impression I got too. but how close of a parallel do you think it is? we can be sure Daeron had a good enough reason..well.. better than Aerys at least.. nonetheless, it still seems Daemon was put in that position. did BR deliberately misinformed Daeron ? I personally guess that Bittersteel had gathered supporters mostly on his own and Bloodraven saw that with his Thousand eyes... still , I can't shake the feeling that that wasn't just it .. that Daemon did want the throne and he wasn't only thrown into that role. I wonder if the reason he wanted it has anything to do with the inherited sense from his mother that they were effectively overlooked in the family and were robbed of their position and their throne.. we could speculate these character motivations better if we knew what Daena thought , when she died and how close she was to her only son:( now .. we can only guess....

2 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

Another "fun" detail here, that I'm not entirely sure is coincidence, but Quentyn Ball, Fireball, the man who saved Daemon from being arrested, was the master of arms at the Red Keep who instructed most of the princes and great bastards. He was promised a position on the Kingsguard, and made his wife join the silent sisters because of this (speaking of mistreated women...), but after Aegon the Unworthy died, his heir Daeron did not honor this promise and it was this Kingsguard, including Williem Wylde who "took his spot", whose attempted arrest Fireball spoiled here! He would later die before the Redgrass Field, murdered by a nameless archer I would be willing to bet was actually Bloodraven!

such a gentleman was our Quentyn Ball! .. yes I think the archer was BR. why he felt the need to kill Ball before the battle is a mystery to me! maybe BR was crossed that he rescued Daemon?!

[chrisdaw]

With regards to impact on the story.

Dany and Aegon will war and a significant cause of this will be that Dany will come to believe, or use as an excuse the belief that Aegon is not the son of Rhaegar but a Blackfyre descendant. The lesson for contemporary characters is don't have bastards, or if you do, make sure you get them right out the way or the realm may bleed.

The lesson will be mostly for Arya, she will be around Dany when Dany is forming/projecting this belief that Aegon is not of proper blood and understand it as a root cause of the war between Aegon and Dany. Then she will become pregnant by Gendry and later marry a king.

[Darth Sidious]

Who won the Dance? No winners. The Targaryens and the Velaryons brought damage to their own families. The biggest losers were the dragons. 
 

The succession crisis in ASOIAF? There is no succession crisis. People already crowned Tommen. Anybody who wants to remove and replace him will need to use force. A claim is justification to take the throne but force is what will make it possible. Tommen is in danger. The winter will bring starvation and he will be facing riots in the city.  

[Daeron the Daring]

As of why Daemon rebelled:

I always tought he never meant to do so, but there were many who wanted this, on his side and on Daeron's side as well.

I guess someone may have arranged something to make Daeron think his brother intends to question his rule, which made him try to arrest Daemon, who in return rebelled. 

Who this person could be? Bittersteel or Bloodraven would be the safest bet to me. 

Did Daemon love Daenerys? He might have, for sure, but the implication the story makes is that he lived with it, even if that was the case. 

[EggBlue]

11 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

Then she will become pregnant by Gendry and later marry a king.

??

[Megorova]

22 hours ago, EggBlue said:

and finally , what would it mean for the current story? if Aegon VI is a Targaryen there is no question in his claim... but even if he is a Blackfyre his claim could be disputable!!!.. if we follow Daena's line , Blackfyres have always been the rightful ruling family. and if not , that means we'd be favoring the agnatic-cognatic succession which means Aegon and Stannis , distant male relatives, will still be before Dany in the line of succession!

The first person in the line of succession is actually Littlefinger. Surprise surprise

That's why he thinks that he has a right to sit on the Iron Throne. Because he actually does have that right, because his claim is the highest, by the laws of inheritance of the 7K. Higher than Jon's, Dany's, fAegon's, or Stannis'.

Aegon III died in 135, not in 157, so supposedly his five children actually were - Baelor and Rhaena - Gaemon Palehair's children; Daeron I, Daena the Defiant, and Elaena - Viserys II's children. So Daena and Elaena were Aegon IV's half-sisters, not his first cousins. So both Daena and Elaena were also the King's children, though bastard-born. And their mother - Queen Daenaera Velaryon, had no claim over Iron Throne and Targaryen crown. Also, unlike Aegon IV's acknowledged and legitimized bastards, Daena and Elaena were never revealed to public as Viserys II's bastard-children, and they were not legitimized. Though Aegon knew that those two were actually his half-sisters, that's why he had a child with each of them. Because that's what his mother made him to do. Elaena gave birth to Viserys Plumm, then Viserys' daughter married with a Dothraki Khal, and her great-grandson was Khal Drogo, thus Rhaego is a Targaryen also on his father's side, not only thru his mother. If Aegon IV, prior to his death, did acknowledged that Viserys Plumm is his son, then Khal Drogo and Brown Ben Plumm (who is also a great-great-grandson of Viserys Plumm) both would have been in the line of succession, same as fAegon.

Aegon IV + Daena = Daemon I Blackfyre + Rohanne of Tyrosh = Aenys Blackfyre + wife = a daughter + Lyonell Selmy = Barristan Selmy + Jeyne Swann/septa Lemore = fAegon. 

Aegon IV + Elaena = Viserys Plumm + wife = a daughter + Dothraki Khal = children (at least two sons - paternal grandfather of Khal Drogo, and maternal grandfather of Brown Ben Plumm) + spouses = Khal Bharbo + wife; Ben's mother + great-grandson (or great-great-grandson, or just grandson) of Balerion Otherys = Khal Drogo; Brown Ben Plumm.

So if the three Otheryses were also amongst Aegon IV's acknowledged children, then Brown Ben has a higher claim over Iron Throne than Khal Drogo. Because amongst Drogo's ancestors there's only Viserys Plumm - one of Aegon IV's bastards, and amongst Brown Ben Plumm's ancestors, besides Viserys Plumm, there's also Balerion Otherys, who also was one of Aegon IV's bastards. So Brown Ben has a double claim, higher than the claim that Drogo had.

fAegon amongst his ancestors also has only one Targaryen bastard - Daemon I. Drogo had one. And Brown Ben has two - Viserys and Balerion. And in all three cases those guys don't have an unbroken male line from them to Aegon IV - fAegon is a descendant of Aenys Blackfyre's daughter, Drogo and Brown Ben are descendants of Viserys Plumm's daughter. While Littlefinger is a descendant of Aegon IV from an unbrocken male-line.

Aegon IV + Falena Stokeworth = Jeyne Lothston

Aegon IV + Bellegere Otherys = Bellenora, Narha, Balerion

Balerion + wife (maybe his sister - Narha) = children (at least one son and one daughter)

Aegon IV + Jeyne Lothston = the Bastard of Harrenhal

the Bastard of Harrenhal + Balerion's daughter = the Sellsword from Braavos + wife = Hedge Knight +wife = first Lord Baelish + wife = Petyr Baelish.

Petyr amongst his ancestors has two sons of Aegon IV - Jeyne Lothston's bastard and Bellegere Otherys' bastard. So if Littlefinger has a prove that his great-great-grandfather - the Bastard of Harrenhal, was a son of Aegon IV, and if Bellegere's children were acknowledged by Aegon IV on his death-bed, then it means that Petyr has a claim thru a partially female line - thru the daughter of Balerion Otherys, who was Littlefinger's paternal great-great grandmother, and in addition to that he is also a descendant of Aegon's son - the Bastard of Harrenhal - the Sellsword from Braavos - the Hedge Knight - first Lord Baelish - Petyr <- an unbroken male-line from Aegon IV to Littlefinger.

Thus those four guys' claims were in this order:

4. fAegon <- a descendant of Aegon IV great-granddaughter (daughter of Aenys Blackfyre - a wife or paramour of Lyonell Selmy).

3. Khal Drogo <- a descendant of Aegon IV granddaughter (daughter of Viserys Plumm).

2. Brown Ben Plumm <- a descendant of Aegon IV granddaughter (daughter of Viserys Plumm) and a descendant of Aegon IV's son - Balerion Otherys.

[Ben also could be Aegon's descendant from an unbroken male line. That's if Balerion had a son, who then also had a son, and then Balerion's grandson (or great-grandson, or great-great-grandson) married with a great-granddaughter of Viserys Plumm - Ben's mother. If between Ben and Balerion Otherys there were only males, only sons, then Brown Ben has an equal claim over the Iron Throne, same as Littlefinger's.

Though if between Ben and Balerion the direct male-line was broken, then Ben has a lower claim than LF.

It's questionable whether Ben's claim should be higher than Khal Drogo's or lower. He has both - Balerion Otherys and Viserys Plumm, amongst his ancestors. Though in his line from Viserys, there are two females - Viserys' daughter and Ben's mother. While between Viserys and Drogo there was only one female - Viserys' daughter, and all the others were males. So if in line between Balerion and Ben there were only males, then he has a higher claim than Drogo had. Though if there was another female (in line from Baleion to Ben), then in addition to Viserys' daughter and Ben's mother, there will be a third female-ancestor in line between Ben and Aegon IV. Thus, in this case Ben will have lower claim than Drogo, and lower than LF.]

1. Petyr Baelish <- a descendant of Aegon IV's son and Aegon IV's daughter  (the Bastard of Harrenhal and Jeyne Lothston), and a descendant of Balerion Otherys' daughter (Aegon IV's granddaughter) - the mother of the Sellsword from Braavos (Petyr's paternal great-grandfather).

So Littlefinger's claim is the highest, because he has three of Aegon the Unworthy's children amongst his ancestors - Jeyne Lothston, the Bastard of Harrenhal, and Balerion Otherys. If he has a prove that those three were indeed King Aegon's children, then Petyr is a legitimate descendant of Aegon IV, and thus he can claim Targaryen throne. Because according to Aegon's decree, the one that legitimized his bastards, anyone who can prove that he (or she) is a descendant from one of Aegon's bastards, if he or she can prove that his/her ancestor really was King Aegon's child, then now this person can have a legit claim over the Iron Throne. And thus Petyr, as a descendant from a direct male-line, has the highest claim. Furthermore, he has several of Aegon's children amongst his ancestors, not like fAegon or Khal Drogo, who had only one - Aenys Blackfyre's daughter, and Viserys Plumm's daughter.

Now, concerning Dany and Jon.

Their 3 and 4 times great-grandfather - Daeron II, possibly was a bastard of Naerys and Aemon the Dragonknight. And any of Aegon's children, even his bastards, are first in line of succession, above any of Naerys' children or Aemon's children. If Daeron is not Aegon's son, then all of his descendants should be standing in line behind all of Aegon's descendants, legitimate and illegitimate. Thus Dany's and Jon's claims over the Iron Throne, thru them being Daeron II's descendants, is below the claim of those four - fAegon, Khal Drogo, Brown Ben Plumm, and Petyr Baelish.

Furthermore, the wife of Hoster Tully - Minisa Whent, was a descendant of the Bastard of Harrenhal, she was his granddaughter, or maybe great-granddaughter. So Catelyn Tully, and thru her all of her children, and also Robert Arryn, and Edmure and his unborn yet child - all of them also have a claim higher than Dany's, or Stannis'.

Neither Dany nor Jon would have had any claim over the Iron Throne, if they haven't descended from one of Aegon IV's bastards - Mya Rivers (Bloodraven's sister). Mya had at least two children - Betha Blackwood (who married with Aegon V) and Melantha Blackwood (who married with Willam Stark - Jon's maternal great-great-grandfather). So both Jon and Dany have a claim over the Iron Throne, but only thru a broken male-line:

Aegon IV + Melissa Blackwood = ab. Mya Rivers + Blackwood-husband = a1. Betha + Aegon IV; b1. Melantha + Willam Stark = a2. Jaehaerys + Shaera; b2. Edwyle Stark + wife = a3. Aerys + Rhaella; b3. Rickard Stark + wife = a4. Rhaegar + Lyanna; b4. Dany + Drogo; a5. Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon; b5. Rhaego.

Amongst Jon and Dany's ancestors from Aegon IV to them, there were two females: in Jon's case - Mya Rivers (Aegon's legitimized daughter) and Melantha Blackwood (King Aegon's granddaughter); in Dany's case - Mya Rivers, and Betha Blackwood. While in the other lines, that led from Aegon IV to his latest descendants, between Aegon IV and fAegon / Khal Drogo there was only one female. It's questionable whether Brown Ben Plumm has an unboken male-line that leads from him to Aegon on the Otherys-line, in which case he has two females between him and Aegon IV, same as Dany and Jon. Or could be that between Balerion and Ben's father there were only males. In either of this two cases, Brown Ben has a higher claim than Khal Drogo, because he's a descendant from two lines of Aegon IV - Viserys Plumm and Balerion Otherys, while Drogo had descended only from one line - Viserys Plumm's.

And Ben has a higher claim than Dany or Jon, no matter whether there were two females and one male amongst his dragonseed-ancestors, or three females, because his ancestor - Viserys Plumm, was King Aegon's son, while Jon and Dany's ancestor - Mya Rivers, was Aegon IV's daughter. So any of Viserys' descendants, and any of Balerion Otherys' descendants are standing in the line of succession closer to the throne, than any of Mya River's descendants. Including Stannis, who is a great-grandson of Mya's daughter - Betha Blackwood.

So their order, in which they are standing in the line of succession to the Iron Throne, is this:

1. Petyr Baelish (unbroken descend thru a male-line from Aegon IV to Littlefinger).

2. Brown Ben Plumm (his female-part-Targaryen ancestor was Aegon IV's granddaughter, and amongst his ancestors there was Aegon IV's son - Balerion Otherys).

3. Khal Drogo (his female-part-Targaryen ancestor was Aegon IV's granddaughter).

4. fAegon (his female-part-Targaryen ancestor was Aegon IV's great-granddaughter - a daughter of Aenys Blackfyre. So because the King's granddaughter (Viseys Plumm's daugher, who married with a Dothraki Khal, and is Drogo's paternal great-grandmother) is closer to him (the King) by blood than his great-granddaughter, fAegon's claim is lower than Drogo's).

5. Melisandre (she is Duncan the Small's daughter, and thus she is also a descendant of Mya Rivers (Aegon IV's daughter), thru Betha Blackwood).

6. Jon (thru two of Mya River's daughters - Melantha and Betha Blackwoods).

7. Dany (thru Betha Blackwood).

8. Stannis (Melisandre is a daughter of Duncan Targaryen, while Stannis is a grandson of Duncan's sister. Thus even Mel is standing closer to the Throne than Stannis).

[Mourning Star]

18 hours ago, EggBlue said:

yeah , that was the impression I got too. but how close of a parallel do you think it is?

This is obviously my interpretation, but...

I think there is a larger point being made here about not just "blood" but who you are and where you came from not being the determining factors in deciding worth, and instead that actions should be judged on their own merits.

So when we see two characters take similar actions, like demanding the arrest of men who have not committed a crime, and one of them is the "mad king" and the other is "the good", I think it's intentional. In both cases I think the action is wrong, though obviously no two situations are exactly the same.

At the end of the day the argument that one would do "bad" things for the sake of the greater good, or give up your honor for the sake of the realm, or anything like that, are being highlighted as dangerous and wrong. Good men aren't excused for doing bad things (and "good" men can be bad kings). Obviously, things aren't always simple, and looking at the hard cases makes for the best story telling.

18 hours ago, EggBlue said:

we can be sure Daeron had a good enough reason..well.. better than Aerys at least.. nonetheless, it still seems Daemon was put in that position. did BR deliberately misinformed Daeron ?

I am not sure Daeron had a good reason, or any better than Aerys's reason anyway. In both cases there was clearly a threat of rebellion, but also it seems like in both cases there was no active rebellion yet. There are always rumors of rebellion, and misusing power out of fear of losing power seems like a pretty classic case of digging your own grave to me. Also, in both cases, the best advise may have been for them to look to their own houses.

18 hours ago, EggBlue said:

I personally guess that Bittersteel had gathered supporters mostly on his own and Bloodraven saw that with his Thousand eyes...

Bittersteal sounds like a bad dude and Bloodraven seems to have a very personal vendetta against him, but this doesn't excuse injustice.

18 hours ago, EggBlue said:

still , I can't shake the feeling that that wasn't just it .

I think there is a long pattern of Bloodraven not being just that is not accidental.

18 hours ago, EggBlue said:

. that Daemon did want the throne and he wasn't only thrown into that role.

Did Robert "want the throne"? He felt obligated to rebel and saw taking the throne himself as the best option once that choice was made. I suspect the situation was similar for Daemon. From his point of view the king was misusing his power to try and arrest him, and that justified deposing him, after that it's just a matter of thinking you have the best claim or would make the best king. I think it's pretty clear that Daemon didn't make a claim tot he throne when it would have been easiest for him, when his father died, and that tells me he wasn't a character who always coveted the throne.

18 hours ago, EggBlue said:

I wonder if the reason he wanted it has anything to do with the inherited sense from his mother that they were effectively overlooked in the family and were robbed of their position and their throne.. we could speculate these character motivations better if we knew what Daena thought , when she died and how close she was to her only son:( now .. we can only guess....

We can only speculate, and so I do, wildly!

18 hours ago, EggBlue said:

such a gentleman was our Quentyn Ball! .. yes I think the archer was BR. why he felt the need to kill Ball before the battle is a mystery to me! maybe BR was crossed that he rescued Daemon?!

I really struggle to try and characterize Fireball. I don't even know what to think of his son, if it is his son, Glendon, who we see on page in Dunk and Egg get falsely accused of a crime and still generally behave bravely.

On the one hand Fireball sends his wife to the silent sisters in hopes of joining the Kingsguard, then fathers a bastard on Penny Jenny the camp follower? He was known as a hot head, but then does decidedly not hot headed stuff like this:

At the crossing of the Mandel, he cut down the sons of Lady Penrose one by one. They say he spared the life of the youngest one as a kindness to his mother.

Was Cortnay Penrose a descendent of this son? He was a knight who braved danger for the life of a bastard and was killed dishonorably outside of battle. Not an unremarkable parallel.

It's hard to know if the stories are all true, and he's just a misogynist with an archaic sense of honor, or if we are being mislead by some of the tales. Either way it sure seems like there is more to some of these stories about him than it first appears.

According to GRRM Fireball was loosely based on Henry Percy (Hotspur). I think it is worth noting that there are various accounts of his death, one where he is killed by an arrow when he opened his visor for a better view, and in William Shakespeare's telling, Hotspur is slain by Prince Hal, the future Henry V, in single combat.

[Lord Varys]

If George is smart, then a detailed history on the Blackfyre Rebellion will increase the importance of Daemon Blackfyre's claim through the female line.

Everything goes still back to Aegon IV first acknowledging and subsequently legitimizing Daemon as his son. But after he was legitimized the son of Daena the Defiant was no longer a bastard. And as such Daemon Blackfyre could certainly stress the fact that he inherited the blood of the dragon from both his parents, and that his mother was of the elder branch of the family - the eldest daughter of King Aegon III.

I'm not sure if this would be a big issue, but people who care about primogeniture might like such arguments.

But in the end the big issue is that Daeron II may have been a clandestine bastard, the illegitimate son of Naerys and the Dragonknight. That is the claim that threatens Daeron's kingship.

Who Daemon's mother is doesn't really as much. If his mother hadn't been a Targaryen princess he could have still pushed his claim the way he did.