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How come Walder Frey agreed to have Robb marry one of his daughters at the end of the war?


Alex13
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It seems foolish/stupid for Walder to agree to that, considering that Robb could die or get injured in the war and not be able to have children, thus depriving Walder of his desire to have a daughter of his as the Lady of Winterfell and the North.

I understand that they were under a time constraint and could not have a wedding at the Twins, as they needed to march and relieve Riverrun. But the wedding could have taken place after the siege of Riverrun was lifted and thus Walder and the Frey's would have been more secure in Robb's camp. Not to mention, Robb would have done his duty and slept with his wife and she might end up pregnant quickly, which would have secured Robb's line, in case he would be injured or killed.

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15 minutes ago, Alex13 said:

It seems foolish/stupid for Walder to agree to that, considering that Robb could die or get injured in the war and not be able to have children, thus depriving Walder of his desire to have a daughter of his as the Lady of Winterfell and the North.

I understand that they were under a time constraint and could not have a wedding at the Twins, as they needed to march and relieve Riverrun. But the wedding could have taken place after the siege of Riverrun was lifted and thus Walder and the Frey's would have been more secure in Robb's camp. Not to mention, Robb would have done his duty and slept with his wife and she might end up pregnant quickly, which would have secured Robb's line, in case he would be injured or killed.

Well, Robb and the Frey girl marrying at the end of the war means Robb and the Frey girl marrying if Robb wins the war. Otherwise nope, no wedding, no alliance. After all, if Robb loses the war, he will be in no position to get married, and Walder will have jumped ship by that time anyway.

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7 minutes ago, Julia H. said:

Well, Robb and the Frey girl marrying at the end of the war means Robb and the Frey girl marrying if Robb wins the war. Otherwise nope, no wedding, no alliance. After all, if Robb loses the war, he will be in no position to get married, and Walder will have jumped ship by that time anyway.

Yea I think that's it, it's not in Walders interest to jump in bed with Robb, leave it at an engagement. 

He can always cancel the wedding if things go bad, like say, Ramsay destroys his home and he loses the Karstarks. (Anyone really thinks Walder would have acted the same if those things did not happen... anyone lol?)

33 minutes ago, Alex13 said:

would have secured Robb's line

They got Arya for that

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Out of opportunism, to finally get his family tied to one of the great houses that he has been seeking for a very long time and to get in a higher position of the Stark-Tully does win while still being able of jumping ships like he always does if things go south for them, and likely out of pettiness, with him in his view getting back for the Tullys having look down on him (not that it was totally unjustified anyway).

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12 hours ago, Alex13 said:

It seems foolish/stupid for Walder to agree to that, considering that Robb could die or get injured in the war and not be able to have children, thus depriving Walder of his desire to have a daughter of his as the Lady of Winterfell and the North.

I understand that they were under a time constraint and could not have a wedding at the Twins, as they needed to march and relieve Riverrun. But the wedding could have taken place after the siege of Riverrun was lifted and thus Walder and the Frey's would have been more secure in Robb's camp. Not to mention, Robb would have done his duty and slept with his wife and she might end up pregnant quickly, which would have secured Robb's line, in case he would be injured or killed.

They were playing a high stakes game and he placed his bet on the wrong house.  Time constraint and the threat of the Starks also forced Walder to make a bad decision.  The Freys gave too much trust and too much help to the Starks. 

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11 hours ago, Paul Serone said:

Though their history should have been a clue. 

Aside from Lyanna, what other time did House Stark renege on a marriage agreement before the events of ASOIAF? If anything, it’s House Baratheon with the track record of bad marriages and opportunistic marriage deals.

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1 minute ago, Canon Claude said:

Aside from Lyanna, what other time did House Stark renege on a marriage agreement before the events of ASOIAF? If anything, it’s House Baratheon with the track record of bad marriages and opportunistic marriage deals.

Nothing to see here, it's just to spit on house Stark.

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16 hours ago, Julia H. said:

Well, Robb and the Frey girl marrying at the end of the war means Robb and the Frey girl marrying if Robb wins the war. Otherwise nope, no wedding, no alliance. After all, if Robb loses the war, he will be in no position to get married, and Walder will have jumped ship by that time anyway.

:agree:Beat me to it. They could have done a proxy wedding -- just a quick little thing to make it all legal in the eyes of the church -- and then do a big bash later, but that would have tied Walder to Robb's cause and would probably have cost him lands and titles if/when he lost. This way, he keeps his options open, knowing he will get a queen out of it if successful but not losing anything should Robb fail.

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I assume that major reason why Freys allied themselves with Starks was that Walder still that time thought that they would have full support of Arryns. After all if he had known that Valelords stayed "neutral" during Wo5K smartest thing for W would had been to be loyal to "King Joffrey" and wait until army of Northmen either will be smashed between walls of Twins and army of Tywin or they would be smart enough to return to North. 

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On 12/8/2021 at 3:39 PM, Canon Claude said:

Aside from Lyanna, what other time did House Stark renege on a marriage agreement before the events of ASOIAF? If anything, it’s House Baratheon with the track record of bad marriages and opportunistic marriage deals.

Don't waste your time with him, Moiraine Sedai or Rondo, they are just Stark haters who like to spite them.

Add them to your ignored users list if you can't stand their replies.

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On 12/9/2021 at 9:40 AM, Willam Stark said:

Don't waste your time with him, Moiraine Sedai or Rondo, they are just Stark haters who like to spite them.

 

Or the same person........in any case, it's business as usual. 

 

My interpretation is that if Robb lost, he wouldn't have gone through with the marriage. The one thing you have to understand about Walder Frey is that's he a bandwagon sort of guy (like me, when I was younger and people asked what football team I liked). 

Edited by Jaenara Belarys
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Walder and the Freys will make sure their future brother-in-law doesn't die on the battlefield.  They did just that and made sure he was safe.  Robb dying on the battlefield would lose them the benefit of the marriage.  It gives the Freys an out clause.  But if they were tied by marriage, no such thing.  The Freys will be bound to support Catelyn and her children. 

Walder saw no need to distrust the Starks.  He was dealing with Cateyn whom he knew.  He had reasons to trust the words of Catelyn.  Most mothers could control their sons.  The deal was made with Catelyn before he met Robb Stark.  He didn't know anything about Robb and assumed he was a reasonably intelligent young man.  Which Robb was not.  Walder is not an evil man nor overly distrustful. He knew he could trust Catelyn.  Catelyn gave her word and Robb swore an oath.  It was as good as done. Except Robb was an idiot and broke the deal.  

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Shame on Walder.  He should have asked for payment in advance.  Marriages form the unbreakable bond between allies before they embark on something as dangerous or as dumb as rebellion.  Ned was a known criminal who was guilty of treason and his son is in the act of rebelling.  Walder had a brain fart to give his trust to outlaws.  A man like Walder would never agree to join a rebel without marriage.  It only had to happen for plot reasons.

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  • 2 weeks later...

While it could be playing both sides - just like planting seeds here and there in case Starks win. Most likely though, this was a trap from the first as it is hard to believe that Frey would want to swear fealty to house Stark - a house Freys never had anything to do with. That said, Cat mentioned (and regrattably understimated) the fact that Frey's were married into the Lannister family (Tywin's sister is Cleos' mom and if you look at the Frey fam tree there's marriages with Tywin's bannermen i.e Brax). This to me is huge part of the whole betrayal. I think that having a Frey-Lannister marriage is not just a marriage to get rid of offspring but it is a represensation of an alligiance. A consumated marriage has to be 1000X better than a marriage pact with a would-be King as there were no guarantee that Robb would survive battle or win or  keep his word. I think Robb was dead the minute Cat made a deal with Walder. Walder leaned with the side that provided him security and protection from becoming traitors to the crpwn and losing all their assets - that wasn't House Stark, that was the Lannisters from the first. Wlader also had beef with the Tullys way before the war and he simply had been looking elsewhere for alligiances for protection perks exactly to be used in these type of conflicts. 

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On 12/22/2021 at 5:02 PM, Tywin's Wallet said:

While it could be playing both sides - just like planting seeds here and there in case Starks win. Most likely though, this was a trap from the first as it is hard to believe that Frey would want to swear fealty to house Stark - a house Freys never had anything to do with. That said, Cat mentioned (and regrattably understimated) the fact that Frey's were married into the Lannister family (Tywin's sister is Cleos' mom and if you look at the Frey fam tree there's marriages with Tywin's bannermen i.e Brax). This to me is huge part of the whole betrayal. I think that having a Frey-Lannister marriage is not just a marriage to get rid of offspring but it is a represensation of an alligiance. A consumated marriage has to be 1000X better than a marriage pact with a would-be King as there were no guarantee that Robb would survive battle or win or  keep his word. I think Robb was dead the minute Cat made a deal with Walder. Walder leaned with the side that provided him security and protection from becoming traitors to the crpwn and losing all their assets - that wasn't House Stark, that was the Lannisters from the first. Wlader also had beef with the Tullys way before the war and he simply had been looking elsewhere for alligiances for protection perks exactly to be used in these type of conflicts. 

Walder didn't think he was swearing fealty to Robb. He thought he was getting a marriage to a Great House. At the time Robb was pronounced king, there were no Freys there to confirm or fight against the move. He's already committing treason by siding with Robb but that protection doesn't come until after WF burns and Stannis loses. Robb might have been making a deal with the devil but he wasn't dead yet.

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Walder Frey is a cunning grasper.   What says Frey wasn't already loyal to Tywin with a marriage already secured between Lannister and Frey?  I don't underestimate Walder Frey's ability to at least conceptualize some conniving angle to get in even better with his son's in laws.   The Lannisters were after all, the main House of the Land at the time Robb approached them.  Or Cat approached them as the case was.  His disdain for the Tullys is palpable.  I can only see an extension of that deep hatred for the Starks by association.   Old Walder Frey had a raven flying for Tywin before Cat even left the The Twins the 1st time.  Give the devil his due.  The Red Wedding may not have been his specific idea, but favor with House Lannister was already in Walder's thoughts and if he had the opportunity to bring House Tully and Friends down, the sweeter the reward in f*cking over Robb.  Or Cat as the case may have been.  

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On 12/7/2021 at 6:23 PM, Alex13 said:

It seems foolish/stupid for Walder to agree to that, considering that Robb could die or get injured in the war and not be able to have children, thus depriving Walder of his desire to have a daughter of his as the Lady of Winterfell and the North.

I understand that they were under a time constraint and could not have a wedding at the Twins, as they needed to march and relieve Riverrun. But the wedding could have taken place after the siege of Riverrun was lifted and thus Walder and the Frey's would have been more secure in Robb's camp. Not to mention, Robb would have done his duty and slept with his wife and she might end up pregnant quickly, which would have secured Robb's line, in case he would be injured or killed.

Hedging his bets . If Robb wins then his daughter is a queen in the North . if not then Lady of the Riverlands .

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On 12/23/2021 at 3:43 PM, Universal Sword Donor said:

Walder didn't think he was swearing fealty to Robb. He thought he was getting a marriage to a Great House. At the time Robb was pronounced king, there were no Freys there to confirm or fight against the move. He's already committing treason by siding with Robb but that protection doesn't come until after WF burns and Stannis loses. Robb might have been making a deal with the devil but he wasn't dead yet.

I disagree. Simply put - Frey was never going to give Robb a daughter - a red wedding was always gonna be the plan. The bethrotal was a tactic to give him time to plot betrayal with the Lannisters. Siding with the traitors is way too much risk for an upstart house.  He simply gave Robb a false sense of security by pretending to be on his side so he couldn't doubt him.  He was always going to off him.  Frey puts lots of value on family becuase to him it's a means of advancement, he was not about go waste one of his daughters  and all the alligiances he's had forged with the Lannisters on a rebel king for a cause he doesn't care about. 

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