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What exactly was Torrhen Stark doing?


James Steller

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We all know that story; Torrhen Stark summons his bannermen and marches south with an army of thirty thousand men at his back. They cross the Neck and enter the Riverlands, only to be confronted with Aegon, his sisters, their dragons, and forty-five thousand men from all the kingdoms which had already submitted to House Targaryen. The Northerners debate on whether they should make their stand, retreat to Moat Cailin, or send an assassin to take out the dragons with weirwood arrows (that's a whole other thing, but anyway).

But what was Torrhen Stark's original plan? Why was he marching south in the first place? The only explanation I can find is that he didn't know about the dragons, or about any of the conquests which Aegon and his sisters carried out while Torrhen was busy assembling his army. But that seems a bit ridiculous to me. As distant and isolated as the North is, I find it very unlikely that Torrhen heard absolutely nothing about what was going on in the south, and if he had heard nothing, why was he marching south anyway?

Repeatedly, we have been told of how the North's geography is their biggest defence. The cold climate, the nigh-impenetrable Neck, and so on. What made Torrhen think that marching south was going to be a good idea? Was he going to fight the Targaryens in the riverlands? How far was he willing to march just to fight Aegon? And depending on his answer to that question, why the hell would he march so far into other people's lands just for a fight? It's not like Aegon was threatening the North at the time, he was marching south when Torrhen drew attention to himself. And yes, I'm sure Aegon was bound to go north eventually, but surely Torrhen and his people could have pulled a Dorne on him? The North's big enough for that, after all, not to mention how not even three dragons could melt all the snow and ice up there.

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The North is pretty backwards and the little information reaching Lord Torrhen failed to adequately convey the majesty of the dragons.  (Reading printed descriptions of nuclear weapons is not the same as seeing footage of a nuclear explosion).  More accurate and complete information reached him regarding the magnificence of the dragons as he marched to the south.  He realized he was out of his league, his foes had superior power, and he did the smart thing for a Stark and surrendered. 

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1 hour ago, James Steller said:

We all know that story; Torrhen Stark summons his bannermen and marches south with an army of thirty thousand men at his back. They cross the Neck and enter the Riverlands, only to be confronted with Aegon, his sisters, their dragons, and forty-five thousand men from all the kingdoms which had already submitted to House Targaryen. The Northerners debate on whether they should make their stand, retreat to Moat Cailin, or send an assassin to take out the dragons with weirwood arrows (that's a whole other thing, but anyway).

But what was Torrhen Stark's original plan? Why was he marching south in the first place? The only explanation I can find is that he didn't know about the dragons, or about any of the conquests which Aegon and his sisters carried out while Torrhen was busy assembling his army. But that seems a bit ridiculous to me. As distant and isolated as the North is, I find it very unlikely that Torrhen heard absolutely nothing about what was going on in the south, and if he had heard nothing, why was he marching south anyway?

Repeatedly, we have been told of how the North's geography is their biggest defence. The cold climate, the nigh-impenetrable Neck, and so on. What made Torrhen think that marching south was going to be a good idea? Was he going to fight the Targaryens in the riverlands? How far was he willing to march just to fight Aegon? And depending on his answer to that question, why the hell would he march so far into other people's lands just for a fight? It's not like Aegon was threatening the North at the time, he was marching south when Torrhen drew attention to himself. And yes, I'm sure Aegon was bound to go north eventually, but surely Torrhen and his people could have pulled a Dorne on him? The North's big enough for that, after all, not to mention how not even three dragons could melt all the snow and ice up there.

 

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

A dark-eyed youth, pale and fierce, sliced three branches off the weirwood and shaped them into arrows. 

 Was prepped with the arrow none the less. Three well prepared archers placed in strategic spots to take out all three at once, while Torrhen talks to Aegon and distracts them.

The 45,000 soldier return home to lick their wounds from Aegon beating them, and fight among them selves again, while the Starks return north to eat ice cream.

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4 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

 

 Was prepped with the arrow none the less. Three well prepared archers placed in strategic spots to take out all three at once, while Torrhen talks to Aegon and distracts them.

The 45,000 soldier return home to lick their wounds from Aegon beating them, and fight among them selves again, while the Starks return north to eat ice cream.

Lord Torrhen obviously didn't believe it could be done and ignored his stupid kin.  He did what was needed and knelt to the Valyrian Dragonlords.  It wasn't much of an insult on his pride because he was not submitting to anotherGreat Lord who he considered an equal.  The Targaryens stood far above the Starks and so the sting of the kneeling was not so bad.  If he had knelt to Loren, yes, it would hurt.  But this was the Targaryens he knelt to. 

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44 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

 

 Was prepped with the arrow none the less. Three well prepared archers placed in strategic spots to take out all three at once, while Torrhen talks to Aegon and distracts them.

The 45,000 soldier return home to lick their wounds from Aegon beating them, and fight among them selves again, while the Starks return north to eat ice cream.

Do we know for sure whether weirwood arrows have a special ability against dragons? That might just be Northern superstition.

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2 hours ago, James Steller said:

Do we know for sure whether weirwood arrows have a special ability against dragons? That might just be Northern superstition.

They killed 3 "dragons" in the first Blackfyre rebellion. Or were those just weirwood bows not arrows? Can't remember

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3 hours ago, Josette DuPres said:

Lord Torrhen obviously didn't believe it could be done and ignored his stupid kin.  He did what was needed and knelt to the Valyrian Dragonlords.  It wasn't much of an insult on his pride because he was not submitting to anotherGreat Lord who he considered an equal.  The Targaryens stood far above the Starks and so the sting of the kneeling was not so bad.  If he had knelt to Loren, yes, it would hurt.  But this was the Targaryens he knelt to. 

Well, he didn't go with it, that's for sure

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3 hours ago, James Steller said:

Do we know for sure whether weirwood arrows have a special ability against dragons? That might just be Northern superstition.

No idea, but power resides where men believe it does. Maybe he thought it would work until actually seeing the size of them. Not sure.

Personally I found Aegon to be a let down. His whole conquest made little sense. The Norman conquest of England made sense. England had already been unified before the Invasion. William's claim to the English throne was based on his assertion that, in 1051, Edward the Confessor had promised him the throne (he was a distant cousin) and that Harold II - having sworn in 1064 to uphold William's right to succeed to that throne - was therefore a usurper.

Aegon invades, after the Targaryens had been quietly living on Dragonstone. With no known blood tie to anyyyy of the 7 kingdoms, Aegon just randomly invades and claims all 7 are going to be his. We are never told why, and we are never once told he was aware of the White Walkers, legend of the Wall, Prince that was Promised, or anything. The Targaryen's proceed to rule with no thought or regard for the Wall, why its there, or if the Others are real and seek them out to end any future threats. Ice creatures, and you're riding fire dragons, but yea no, squabbling over a throne is much more important. 

Targayen swords are given to lords but isn't a plan to arm Westeros against the others. Nothing. 

Then, the one war we're are told happened by Jaehaerys II to his grandkids in the World book, but then goes against it and even changes the order of kids and their names for Fire and Blood. So no war at the wall with Dragons vs giants or anything.  

Either history has been rewritten in world, or Martin just rewrote it out right. Either way, doesn't leave much to go on. 

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7 hours ago, James Steller said:

We all know that story; Torrhen Stark summons his bannermen and marches south with an army of thirty thousand men at his back. They cross the Neck and enter the Riverlands, only to be confronted with Aegon, his sisters, their dragons, and forty-five thousand men from all the kingdoms which had already submitted to House Targaryen. The Northerners debate on whether they should make their stand, retreat to Moat Cailin, or send an assassin to take out the dragons with weirwood arrows (that's a whole other thing, but anyway).

But what was Torrhen Stark's original plan? Why was he marching south in the first place? The only explanation I can find is that he didn't know about the dragons, or about any of the conquests which Aegon and his sisters carried out while Torrhen was busy assembling his army. But that seems a bit ridiculous to me. As distant and isolated as the North is, I find it very unlikely that Torrhen heard absolutely nothing about what was going on in the south, and if he had heard nothing, why was he marching south anyway?

Torrhen was facing political pressure from the north.  The north has an independent streak and more brio than common sense. If the men were anything like the Great Jon Umber, many just wanted a battle.  

7 hours ago, James Steller said:

Repeatedly, we have been told of how the North's geography is their biggest defence. The cold climate, the nigh-impenetrable Neck, and so on. What made Torrhen think that marching south was going to be a good idea? Was he going to fight the Targaryens in the riverlands? How far was he willing to march just to fight Aegon? And depending on his answer to that question, why the hell would he march so far into other people's lands just for a fight? It's not like Aegon was threatening the North at the time, he was marching south when Torrhen drew attention to himself. And yes, I'm sure Aegon was bound to go north eventually, but surely Torrhen and his people could have pulled a Dorne on him? The North's big enough for that, after all, not to mention how not even three dragons could melt all the snow and ice up there.

The north is resource poor.  They cannot survive an isolation from the south.  The Targaryen allies can very easily blockade Manderly's port and the north will slowly but surely die when the weather turns cold.  Torrhen had enough sense to see the writing on the wall and made the proper choice.  

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He knelt after negotiations, sending his brother and three maesters to talk on his behalve. I do not know what he got out of it, but showing how powerfull he was to Aegon could not have hurt his position. He also likely wanted his bannerman who might be reluctant to follow him in kneeling to see the dragons, hear the stories about Harrenhall from the riverlanders and maybe even an eyewitness acount of the Field of Fire. The would be less likely to protest or rise in rebellion after they returned North having seen and heard about the dragons first hand.

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26 minutes ago, direpupy said:

He knelt after negotiations, sending his brother and three maesters to talk on his behalve. I do not know what he got out of it, but showing how powerfull he was to Aegon could not have hurt his position. He also likely wanted his bannerman who might be reluctant to follow him in kneeling to see the dragons, hear the stories about Harrenhall from the riverlanders and maybe even an eyewitness acount of the Field of Fire. The would be less likely to protest or rise in rebellion after they returned North having seen and heard about the dragons first hand.

Not at all suspicious. Considering the North is an independent Kingdom that worships the old gods, and where the Andals made no head way. Save for House Manderly, every one in the North should be of First men blood.

 

So, why does a Stark have a Maester? and 3 of them no less. Even Kings Landing only has one Maester. If not all his, then which houses did the other 2 belong to? and why send Maesters from lords houses instead of just the one from the Kings?

Is every Maester to a King a Grand Maester? Or was that just for Kings Landing? 

 

Or did Old Town simply send envoys to negotiate with Stark. To talk him down from war. House Hightower never took the field against the Targaryens 

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14 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Not at all suspicious. Considering the North is an independent Kingdom that worships the old gods, and where the Andals made no head way. Save for House Manderly, every one in the North should be of First men blood.

 

So, why does a Stark have a Maester? and 3 of them no less. Even Kings Landing only has one Maester. If not all his, then which houses did the other 2 belong to? and why send Maesters from lords houses instead of just the one from the Kings?

Is every Maester to a King a Grand Maester? Or was that just for Kings Landing? 

 

Or did Old Town simply send envoys to negotiate with Stark. To talk him down from war. House Hightower never took the field against the Targaryens 

Maesters aren't septons, they're under no obligation to pray the Sevens or convert others to the Faith. 

Plus there were many benefits into accepting and getting the services of maesters in the North such as their medicine expertise and knowledge in sciences, geography, history and other areas of knowledge; not counting their ravens allowing better communications and political or economical connection with the south, and that they are given for free.

The Starks and northern lords aren't like the Old Way and Drowned God fanatics in the Iron Islands, they certainely saw the advantages and benefits of having maesters at their disposal.

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46 minutes ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

Maesters aren't septons, they're under no obligation to pray the Sevens or convert others to the Faith. 

Plus there were many benefits into accepting and getting the services of maesters in the North such as their medicine expertise and knowledge in sciences, geography, history and other areas of knowledge; not counting their ravens allowing better communications and political or economical connection with the south, and that they are given for free.

The Starks and northern lords aren't like the Old Way and Drowned God fanatics in the Iron Islands, they certainely saw the advantages and benefits of having maesters at their disposal.

Maesters were established with the Andals if Im not mistaken. When you draw up the timeline proper, you see the Andals arrived around the time of the Long Night. They built the Citadel by a old pirate den. (Likely Iron Island holdings and why they keep waring against old town, other than for riches.). 

The Maesters are not free either. The lords and kings pay for them, to Old Town and the Citadel. You think they run off donations? The North is an independent kingdom that didn't even care to help when Aegon invaded. Why would the north care about Ravens to stay in touch with a bunch of Andal Kingdoms and southerners? You think the Kings of Europe had such people they sent out along the silk roads to maintain good communications with people in China? Not at all. They had no idea where the goods were coming from, cause the traders kept it a secret. The North doesn't need communications with the south to maintain it self. They are a sparse kingdom and big compared to the other ones, and they have seasonal grow times. You realize it snows in a lot of farm countries right? It snows in England, Ireland, Germany, and France. Im from Alaska, we grow most all our own food, and could easily go with out the stuff we import. There is plenty of wildlife, and the summer is plenty warm for growing. In fact we have volcanic soil which is rich in nitrate, so good for growing. In Alaska, we refer to the rest of the U.S. as the lower 48's and couldn't care a fig what is going on with them most the time. Same as the North in ASOIAF. The thing the North in Asoiaf may have to trade for would be metal. As metal deposits are not evenly distributed. Alaska has tin, but not really any copper. We have Iron and Gold though. So Bronze age would suck, but Iron age not so much. Ocean is available for salt and we have a flower up there natives use to wrap meat with as it has a high acidity and keeps out oxidization. 

That being said, trade is good for the economy and money as it can create new jobs. It isn't required though. 

I imagine the Sentinelese have been doing just fine with out computers, phones, writing, mail, or even likely fire. Yet here we are in 2021, and the people of that Island are considered an uncontacted tribe. 

Tribes in the Amazon still uncontacted too. 

Plus, why would Old Town care whats going on in Winterfell. Like anyone in the south has anything nice to say about Winterfell.  They don't seem to much apart of the affairs, dramas, or even fashions of the south. So why need constant communication past your trade ports?

Frankly, the concept of Maesters is weird and not realistic anyways. Like any King is dumb enough to not realize he's allowing a spy into his council? No king would allow this in real life because its not smart. If they were religious, a Septon, yes. As Kings had priest, and cardinals in their Kingdoms that were answerable to Rome. That though, was under the Holy Roman Empire. Westeros is not the Holy Empire of the Sept. Even the Church of Rome had little say over England, France, and Spain going to war with each other. They did it all the time, despite each being a part of the Holy Roman Empire. Specially if they were one of the Kingdoms who's king was not chosen to be Holy Roman Emperor. Which usually went to France or Spain. England got the short end, so little surprise they broke away when the Church denied Henry. 

The North of Westeros would get equally as little attention as England did. Just as Scotland got less attention than Whales, Cornwall, or England. Being far from the center of power leaves you to your own devices more oft than not.

 

 

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46 minutes ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

Maesters aren't septons, they're under no obligation to pray the Sevens or convert others to the Faith. 

Plus there were many benefits into accepting and getting the services of maesters in the North such as their medicine expertise and knowledge in sciences, geography, history and other areas of knowledge; not counting their ravens allowing better communications and political or economical connection with the south, and that they are given for free.

The Starks and northern lords aren't like the Old Way and Drowned God fanatics in the Iron Islands, they certainely saw the advantages and benefits of having maesters at their disposal.

This is another attempt to create an alternate history to what the Maesters have told us, put together from multiple accounts. In the hopes it will reveal a truer picture of what has been happening in Westeros. After I will give an account pointing out specific dates and what the implication is by them. This is for those interested or who may not have seen my older threads. 

 

Next to each event is a number that can also be found at the bottom of the thread with the corresponding quotes and references.

Two inclusion marked in Red, the Andal invasion and Blackwood/Bracken Feud are the only ones included by me that actually have multiple dates given, and I’ve chosen one.

Other two inclusions in black bold, by me have no dates given for them in the books and are placed in based on surrounding events or info about them. Such as Bael and the kingsroad.

All other accounts listed have only one date mentioned for them.

 

2700Bc  - Blackwoods vs Bracken feud begins during the Age of Hereos 1. Gendel and Gorne 2.

 

 

1700 Bc – Dawn Forged to fight the Long Night.  3 . Joramun teams up with Brandon the Breaker against the Night King? Or the Century afer? 4. Andal Invasion of Westeros 5. Inner Walls and only defense of Winterfell built 6. Abandonment of Zamettar by Ghis 7.

1436 Bc- Scouring of Lorath by Valyria 8

1336 Bc- Boash on Lorath 9

 

1000 Bc- Starry Sept built in Old Town after Andal Conquest 10, Glass Candles brought to Old Town from Valyria 11, Falcon Crown first worn by Artys Arryn I forged 12

 

 

Its in the details about the Crown and when the Andals are invading in comparison to the crowns formation.

 

A Dance with Dragons - Jaime I

“Only no one knows when the Andals crossed the narrow sea. The True History says four thousand years have passed since then, but some maesters claim that it was only two. Past a certain point, all the dates grow hazy and confused, and the clarity of history becomes the fog of legend."

 

A Feast for Crows - Prologue

The Lord's Sept joined in a moment later, then the Seven Shrines from their gardens across the Honeywine, and finally the Starry Sept that had been the seat of the High Septon for a thousand years before Aegon landed at King's Landing. 

The World of Ice and Fire - The Reach: Oldtown

When the Andals came, the Hightowers were amongst the first lords of Westeros to welcome them. "Wars are bad for trade," said Lord Dorian Hightower, when he set aside his wife of twenty years, the mother of his children, to take an Andal princess as his bride. His grandson Lord Damon (the Devout) was the first to accept the Faith. To honor the new gods, he built the first sept in Oldtown and six more elsewhere in his realm. When he died prematurely of a bad belly, Septon Robeson became regent for his newborn son, ruling Oldtown in all but name for the next twenty years and ultimately becoming the first High Septon. The boy he raised and trained, Lord Triston Hightower, raised the Starry Sept in his honor after his passing.

 

A Feast for Crows - Prologue

Pate knew about the glass candles, though he had never seen one burn. They were the worst-kept secret of the Citadel. It was said that they had been brought to Oldtown from Valyria a thousand years before the Doom. He had heard there were four; one was green and three were black, and all were tall and twisted.

The World of Ice and Fire - The Reign of the Dragons: The Conquest

The two queens smiled at one another and exchanged courtesies instead. Then Lady Sharra sent for the three crowns (her own regent's coronet, her son's small crown, and the Falcon Crown of Mountain and Vale that the Arryn kings had worn for a thousand years), and surrendered them to Queen Visenya, along with the swords of her garrison. And it was said afterward that the little king flew thrice about the summit of the Giant's Lance and landed to find himself a little lord. Thus did Visenya Targaryen bring the Vale of Arryn into her brother's realm.

The World of Ice and Fire - The Vale: House Arryn

The true tale of House Arryn contains neither giants nor griffins nor huge falcons, yet from the day Ser Artys first donned the Falcon Crown to the present, they have rightly held a storied place in the history of the Seven Kingdoms. 

 

 

This all is about the Sept and Andals, yes, but shows that it wasn't long after the Long Night. The Maesters were not around for long before the Andals, if at all before them.

Quote

 

You've mentioned that Dawn has an illustrious history -- is there a ballpark figure for how long the Daynes and/or Starfall/Dawn have existed?

Oh, I'd say Dawn goes back a couple thousand years... and before that, things get a little fuzzy anyway.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Category/C91/P75/

 

 

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52 minutes ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

Maesters aren't septons, they're under no obligation to pray the Sevens or convert others to the Faith. 

Plus there were many benefits into accepting and getting the services of maesters in the North such as their medicine expertise and knowledge in sciences, geography, history and other areas of knowledge; not counting their ravens allowing better communications and political or economical connection with the south, and that they are given for free.

The Starks and northern lords aren't like the Old Way and Drowned God fanatics in the Iron Islands, they certainely saw the advantages and benefits of having maesters at their disposal.

Consider this, in over 2000 years, the Starks never came south of the Neck that we are told. To help in any war, to wed anyone, nothing. No southern ambitions till Maester Walys. 

A Dance with Dragons - The Prince of Winterfell

"That was how it was with Lord Rickard Stark. Maester Walys was his grey rat's name. And isn't it clever how the maesters go by only one name, even those who had two when they first arrived at the Citadel? That way we cannot know who they truly are or where they come from … but if you are dogged enough, you can still find out. Before he forged his chain, Maester Walys had been known as Walys Flowers. Flowers, Hill, Rivers, Snow … we give such names to baseborn children to mark them for what they are, but they are always quick to shed them. Walys Flowers had a Hightower girl for a mother … and an archmaester of the Citadel for a father, it was rumored. The grey rats are not as chaste as they would have us believe. Oldtown maesters are the worst of all. Once he forged his chain, his secret father and his friends wasted no time dispatching him to Winterfell to fill Lord Rickard's ears with poisoned words as sweet as honey. The Tully marriage was his notion, never doubt it, he—"
 

A Dance with Dragons - The Turncloak

"The day I learned that Brandon was to marry Catelyn Tully, though … there was nothing sweet about that pain. He never wanted her, I promise you that. He told me so, on our last night together … but Rickard Stark had great ambitions too. Southron ambitions that would not be served by having his heir marry the daughter of one of his own vassals. Afterward my father nursed some hope of wedding me to Brandon's brother Eddard, but Catelyn Tully got that one as well. I was left with young Lord Dustin, until Ned Stark took him from me."
"Robert's Rebellion …"
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11 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Maesters were established with the Andals if Im not mistaken. When you draw up the timeline proper, you see the Andals arrived around the time of the Long Night. They built the Citadel by a old pirate den. (Likely Iron Island holdings and why they keep waring against old town, other than for riches.). 

The Maesters are not free either. The lords and kings pay for them, to Old Town and the Citadel. You think they run off donations? The North is an independent kingdom that didn't even care to help when Aegon invaded. Why would the north care about Ravens to stay in touch with a bunch of Andal Kingdoms and southerners? You think the Kings of Europe had such people they sent out along the silk roads to maintain good communications with people in China? Not at all. They had no idea where the goods were coming from, cause the traders kept it a secret. The North doesn't need communications with the south to maintain it self. They are a sparse kingdom and big compared to the other ones, and they have seasonal grow times. You realize it snows in a lot of farm countries right? It snows in England, Ireland, Germany, and France. Im from Alaska, we grow most all our own food, and could easily go with out the stuff we import. There is plenty of wildlife, and the summer is plenty warm for growing. In fact we have volcanic soil which is rich in nitrate, so good for growing. In Alaska, we refer to the rest of the U.S. as the lower 48's and couldn't care a fig what is going on with them most the time. Same as the North in ASOIAF. The thing the North in Asoiaf may have to trade for would be metal. As metal deposits are not evenly distributed. Alaska has tin, but not really any copper. We have Iron and Gold though. So Bronze age would suck, but Iron age not so much. Ocean is available for salt and we have a flower up there natives use to wrap meat with as it has a high acidity and keeps out oxidization. 

That being said, trade is good for the economy and money as it can create new jobs. It isn't required though. 

I imagine the Sentinelese have been doing just fine with out computers, phones, writing, mail, or even likely fire. Yet here we are in 2021, and the people of that Island are considered an uncontacted tribe. 

Tribes in the Amazon still uncontacted too. 

Plus, why would Old Town care whats going on in Winterfell. Like anyone in the south has anything nice to say about Winterfell.  They don't seem to much apart of the affairs, dramas, or even fashions of the south. So why need constant communication past your trade ports?

Frankly, the concept of Maesters is weird and not realistic anyways. Like any King is dumb enough to not realize he's allowing a spy into his council? No king would allow this in real life because its not smart. If they were religious, a Septon, yes. As Kings had priest, and cardinals in their Kingdoms that were answerable to Rome. That though, was under the Holy Roman Empire. Westeros is not the Holy Empire of the Sept. Even the Church of Rome had little say over England, France, and Spain going to war with each other. They did it all the time, despite each being a part of the Holy Roman Empire. Specially if they were one of the Kingdoms who's king was not chosen to be Holy Roman Emperor. Which usually went to France or Spain. England got the short end, so little surprise they broke away when the Church denied Henry. 

The North of Westeros would get equally as little attention as England did. Just as Scotland got less attention than Whales, Cornwall, or England. Being far from the center of power leaves you to your own devices more oft than not.

The North wasn't completely cut from the south in terms of economical and cultural exchanges even if it remained independant politically and majorly stayed true to its First Men heritage.

Also european rulers and greatest minds have known about India and China and the Silk Roads since ancient Greece and Rome eras, even if they only had limited informations about what asian countries were like, it wasn't a trader secret at all.

I don't doubt that the Starks and most northern lords knew the advantages of trading with the south and Essos and did that very long before Aegon's Conquest, to get more food to better prepare for and survive winter and get ressources not found in the North such as Reach or Dorne fruits or wines.

And even if they were likely slower to adopt maesters the northmen certainely realized the advantages of having maesters, medicine, knowledge and communication, and adopted the system too if for their own pragmatic reasons. Even Balon Greyjoy was smart enough to realize the advantages of keeping maesters in the Iron Islands so I don't see why the Starks would have refused to allow maesters in the North.

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38 minutes ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

The North wasn't completely cut from the south in terms of economical and cultural exchanges even if it remained independant politically and majorly stayed true to its First Men heritage.

Also european rulers and greatest minds have known about India and China and the Silk Roads since ancient Greece and Rome eras, even if they only had limited informations about what asian countries were like, it wasn't a trader secret at all.

I don't doubt that the Starks and most northern lords knew the advantages of trading with the south and Essos and did that very long before Aegon's Conquest, to get more food to better prepare for and survive winter and get ressources not found in the North such as Reach or Dorne fruits or wines.

And even if they were likely slower to adopt maesters the northmen certainely realized the advantages of having maesters, medicine, knowledge and communication, and adopted the system too if for their own pragmatic reasons. Even Balon Greyjoy was smart enough to realize the advantages of keeping maesters in the Iron Islands so I don't see why the Starks would have refused to allow maesters in the North.

A Dance with Dragons - The Prince of Winterfell

"That was how it was with Lord Rickard Stark. Maester Walys was his grey rat's name. And isn't it clever how the maesters go by only one name, even those who had two when they first arrived at the Citadel? That way we cannot know who they truly are or where they come from
 
So Lady Dustin is the only person with a brain to distrust the Maesters? Right.
Also, I covered everything else. And what wine? Tyrion brings his own stash of summerwine since its only mulled wine in the north. A fact ive pointed out about Mance saying he's tasted Dornishman's wives and summerwine, when he's talking to Melisandre. They had oranges in the Vale, but i've never read about fruit in the north. Aside from lemon cakes that sansa likes. 
 
And no, Maesters make no sense. And yes, they cost money. They are not cheap.
 
You're paying for your own spy, to council you the way Old Town wants you to act or think. While they read  your messages, write your letters for you wording things how they will. (This is the bases for the Maester Conspiracy, they are controlling things.) Yet, of all the distrusting lords and kings, only Lady Dustin is smart enough to not trust them. 
 
Its like hiring Mirri Maz Dur to be your healer and wisdom guide. Not to be trusted. 
 
And no, Europe had no idea what China was like till Marco Polo. Hence his fame. It was a traders secret because people were not traversing the whole path them selves. It went person to person down the silk roads. So by time it reached Europe, it had passed too many hands and the earliest hands it passed, didn't tell where it came from. Like the secret of Silk. Then when finally sought it out cause muslims cut off the trade road, they discovered America. They knew sooooo much about China and India, that they thought America was India. Hence why we call native Americans, Indians. By time they realized it wasn't India, the name stuck. That's pretty well known actually. There are some ancient accounts of a few people traveling that far and writing about it, but nothing I recall for diplomatic reasons, or trade. Just exploration. At least in roman times. That was before the Muslims cut off the routes though. Even Alexander the Great never made it to India proper. Just got to their borders if im not mistaken. That didn't last long either as he died and his men fought them selves for the scraps. 
 
What the Romans knew, wasn't known by Europe though till the Renaissance and more recent times. Hence the "Dark Ages". 
 
 
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11 hours ago, James Steller said:

Why was he marching south in the first place?

His army of 30k men needed at least 30.000 kg food per day (that number do not even cover horse fodder) so only way he could feed that army was to march to Riverlands and made feeding that army problem for Riverlanders. Or when he called that horde at arms he had to invade south or empty all granaries in North. Basically he made northern Riverlords pay his war.

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26 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

A Dance with Dragons - The Prince of⁸ Winterfell

"That was how it was with Lord Rickard Stark. Maester Walys was his grey rat's name. And isn't it clever how the maesters go by only one name, even those who had two when they first arrived at the Citadel? That way we cannot know who they truly are or where they come from
 
So Lady Dustin is the only person with a brain to distrust the Maesters? Right.
Also, I covered everything else. And what wine? Tyrion brings his own stash of summerwine since its only mulled wine in the north. A fact ive pointed out about Mance saying he's tasted Dornishman's wives and summerwine, when he's talking to Melisandre. They had oranges in the Vale, but i've never read about fruit in the north. Aside from lemon cakes that sansa likes. 
 
And no, Maesters make no sense. And yes, they cost money. They are not cheap.
 
You're paying for your own spy, to council you the way Old Town wants you to act or think. While they read  your messages, write your letters for you wording things how they will. (This is the bases for the Maester Conspiracy, they are controlling things.) Yet, of all the distrusting lords and kings, only Lady Dustin is smart enough to not trust them. 
 
Its like hiring Mirri Maz Dur to be your healer and wisdom guide. Not to be trusted. 
 
And no, Europe had no idea what China was like till Marco Polo. Hence his fame. It was a traders secret because people were not traversing the whole path them selves. It went person to person down the silk roads. So by time it reached Europe, it had passed too many hands and the earliest hands it passed, didn't tell where it came from. Like the secret of Silk. Then when finally sought it out cause muslims cut off the trade road, they discovered America. They knew sooooo much about China and India, that they thought America was India. Hence why we call native Americans, Indians. By time they realized it wasn't India, the name stuck. That's pretty well known actually. There are some ancient accounts of a few people traveling that far and writing about it, but nothing I recall for diplomatic reasons, or trade. Just exploration. At least in roman times. That was before the Muslims cut off the routes though. Even Alexander the Great never made it to India proper. Just got to their borders if im not mistaken. That didn't last long either as he died and his men fought them selves for the scraps. 
 
What the Romans knew, wasn't known by Europe though till the Renaissance and more recent times. Hence the "Dark Ages". 
 
 

The maesters' competences such as them having knowledge and practice of medicine and sciences far above anyone else, them having ravens far more reliable than other birds for communication and the good advices they can gibe, and the fact that their duty is to be loyal to the castle they are assigned to outweight the risks of them being spies for the Citadel which hasn't much power to endanger or influence the North anyway.

If the Starks were willing of welcoming the Manderlys in the North despite them being southerners and worshippers of the Seven, there is no reason for them to have refused to get their own Maesters for the reasons cited before. 

Even the Ironborn were capable of making economical and cultural exchanges with the rest of the mainland after the arrival of the Andals, so the less hostile and narrow-minded Stark kings...

And Lady Dustin's says are about one maester, not against all maesters, she certainely has her own and it's more to vent out her frustration over having not been capable of marrying Brandon Stark than her having isolationist views.

Also greek and roman kings, emperors, scientists and philosophers knew about at least the existence of China and India and that they had precious ressources not found in Europe and that they could trade with.

Not knowing fully about the other countries or continents haven't stopped men from Asia, Africa and Europe to have economical, cultural and technological exchanges with each other since Antiquity. It's in human nature to try to explore and exchange things to strengthen the economy, find and gain new ressources and better their lives. 

Edit: Another proof of the northmen being perfectly capable of accepting and getting their own maesters and of making cultural exchange and assimilation is that their ancestors were willing to do it with the Children of the Forest following their war and to adopt the Children's religion and cultural practices. 

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6 hours ago, James West said:

The north is resource poor.  They cannot survive an isolation from the south.  The Targaryen allies can very easily blockade Manderly's port and the north will slowly but surely die when the weather turns cold.  Torrhen had enough sense to see the writing on the wall and made the proper choice.  

They can absolutely survive isolation from the south. After all they managed to survive for thousands of years where they were actively at war with the IB, Valemen, and rivermen. They would definitely be susceptible to a naval blockade and invasion near WH but that's not even comparable to isolation.

 

1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

And no, Europe had no idea what China was like till Marco Polo.

What the Romans knew, wasn't known by Europe though till the Renaissance and more recent times. Hence the "Dark Ages". 

Parts of Europe definitely knew what was going on. Romans traded in India and China and SE Asia. Alexander the Great's successors in Bactria -- greek culture and language -- regularly traded with China along the silk road. One of the Byzantine emperors sent Christian monks to steal silkworms from China and the Byzantines became the only source for silk in the Mediterannean. Those lands were in Italy.  The crusaders got their taste of China and India as well, as well as bringing back the greek and latin classics well before the Renaissance started. Those classics were also studied in Spain and southern france too, as the moors had kept those books. Marco Polo wasn't even the first Euro merchant to write about China. He's just by far the most famous and accepted by the Chinese royalty.

Not to mention there were enclaves of jews all over SE asia before the renaissance. 

2 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Maesters were established with the Andals if Im not mistaken. When you draw up the timeline proper, you see the Andals arrived around the time of the Long Night. They built the Citadel by a old pirate den. (Likely Iron Island holdings and why they keep waring against old town, other than for riches.). 

There's really no solid evidence to back that up. All we know is that the founder was a grandson of Garth Greenhand and probably lived during the age of heroes. I'm not sold on the timeline you put together. There's just too much variability in accounts about the andals landing.

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