What exactly was Torrhen Stark doing?

[AlaskanSandman]

1 minute ago, direpupy said:

Apart from me not really seeing the two different cultures, there is the problem i also do not see the antagonism that would result from the competition between those two cultures. This lack of solid evidence apart from the Hightowers and there fortress on Battle Isle for a competing culture to that of the First Men is where for me the first cracks apear in the theory, i say crack because its not a hole, the fortress and the seastone chair are hints to an other culture, so its not baseless just unlikely.

You could with some imagination see two competing cultures in the Durran Godsgrief story, if you leave out the gods and look at it as man from one culture takes woman from other culture against her parents wishes causing a war. But one story thats pretty slim in regards to evidence.

Well, in it's simplest terms I think it would be one people who live peacefully with the land and don't cut down the sacred Tree's, while the other one doesn't trust the Trees, and cuts them down. There does seem to be a bride theft implied in Duran's legend that may be a carry over from some legend in the east, or Westeros but who knows on that one for sure.

[AlaskanSandman]

7 minutes ago, direpupy said:

Apart from me not really seeing the two different cultures, there is the problem i also do not see the antagonism that would result from the competition between those two cultures. This lack of solid evidence apart from the Hightowers and there fortress on Battle Isle for a competing culture to that of the First Men is where for me the first cracks apear in the theory, i say crack because its not a hole, the fortress and the seastone chair are hints to an other culture, so its not baseless just unlikely.

You could with some imagination see two competing cultures in the Durran Godsgrief story, if you leave out the gods and look at it as man from one culture takes woman from other culture against her parents wishes causing a war. But one story thats pretty slim in regards to evidence.

There is also the idea that the Sea People are connected to dragons. Something maybe the First Men and the Cotf were not keen on. Just two ideas though.

 

Edit- Dragons would of course by pass the need for either group to have ships

[AlaskanSandman]

20 minutes ago, direpupy said:

Apart from me not really seeing the two different cultures, there is the problem i also do not see the antagonism that would result from the competition between those two cultures. This lack of solid evidence apart from the Hightowers and there fortress on Battle Isle for a competing culture to that of the First Men is where for me the first cracks apear in the theory, i say crack because its not a hole, the fortress and the seastone chair are hints to an other culture, so its not baseless just unlikely.

You could with some imagination see two competing cultures in the Durran Godsgrief story, if you leave out the gods and look at it as man from one culture takes woman from other culture against her parents wishes causing a war. But one story thats pretty slim in regards to evidence.

Aegon's invasion could be similar. Coming from over the sea, on dragons. Forming bases first on Islands, before invading. 

 

Making the question of Stark kneeling and being the last of Westeros to submit, indeed interesting especially with the Starks wanting to use 3 weirwood arrows. 

 

Edit- How likely is it the dragons only lasted a couple hundred years till the Long Night, just as currently. Appearing just long enough to help in the Long Night before being wiped out them selves.

[direpupy]

27 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Well, in it's simplest terms I think it would be one people who live peacefully with the land and don't cut down the sacred Tree's, while the other one doesn't trust the Trees, and cuts them down. There does seem to be a bride theft implied in Duran's legend that may be a carry over from some legend in the east, or Westeros but who knows on that one for sure.

Honestly that sounds more like a split among the First Men not two different cultures, you would have the ones who accepted the pact with the CotF and those who don't and would have continued to worship there own gods.

28 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

There is also the idea that the Sea People are connected to dragons. Something maybe the First Men and the Cotf were not keen on. Just two ideas though.

 

Edit- Dragons would of course by pass the need for either group to have ships

I am assuming that you are talking about the fortress on Battle Isle beëing made of similar material to the Valyrian roads and Dragonstone?

19 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Aegon's invasion could be similar. Coming from over the sea, on dragons. Forming bases first on Islands, before invading. 

This apart from the Dragon bit sounds more like  the Andals to be honest.

[Seams]

3 hours ago, direpupy said:

And this is where i would suspect them of grand ambitions, i don't really link those ambitions to the distant past. For a king of all Westeros before the Long Night i would look more at the legends of Garth Greenhand in the Reach and the legend of the First King and his barrow in the North. They only legend the Ironborn have that comes close is that of the Grey King but they never claimed he ruled over more then the Iron Isles, were ass they other two are both clamiants to rule of all the First Men and thus all of Westeros before the Long Night.

I think this starts to get at a major set of plot points about the unfolding "House Bolton vs. Everyone else" struggle in the north right now; probably even the "House Stark vs. Everyone else" dynamic that preceded the consolidation of power by the early Stark Kings in the North.

House Stark is closely connected with the color grey - to the extent that I can't think of another house with a grey sigil. (If there is one, I bet it's a symbolic House Stark.) You could make a case for House Greyjoy but the close link between Theon Greyjoy as the ward of Ned Stark (and, later, the Prince of Winterfell) leads me to think that House Greyjoy and House Stark are symbolic parallels. 

Of course, Lady Dustin expresses her anger toward Ned Stark and toward the refusal to betroth her to Brandon Stark (the uncle). She also shows her disdain for the "grey rats," and blames them for leading House Stark into bad decisions. In other words, the grey House Stark and the grey rats (maesters) have teamed up to frustrate the hopes and plans Lady Dustin has for herself and her family. 

As the widow of House Dustin, Lady Dustin is, essentially, the Barrow Queen. She is the sole surviving heir to the oldest monarchy in the North and she has been stymied at every turn in her efforts to reestablish a barrow dynasty: she was not allowed to marry the heir to House Stark. Ned Stark didn't return the bones of her husband, so she had no recyclable material to haul into a barrow and bring about a magical rebirth. (Review the wildling beliefs about burning bodies or about shadowcats breaking bones to prevent the Others from wighting them.) Her nephew was killed by Ramsay Snow. (A symbolic Jon Snow.) Ned Stark never arranged a remarriage for her, which we know was his responsibility because we saw Bran debating what to do for Lady Hornwood or her heir. Was keeping Barbrey Dustin single and isolated part of Ned's strategy for neutralizing Lady Dustin and making sure she never produced an heir? She can't even get her hands on Ned Stark's bones, which might allow her to create a glamour or a Rattleshirt-style of "reborn" Ned under her control. 

I realize that Lady Dustin was originally a Ryswell, with a horse-head sigil. I'm not 100% sure, but I think that horses are symbolic souls of some kind. Giving someone a horse and having that horse accepted as a gift puts the person's soul under your control - or maybe control isn't the right word. But there's a link or a sponsorship that causes a bond to form. We see Egg accept a mule from his brother, who is studying to be a maester and, later in the same story, accept a horse as a gift from Rohanne Webber (who is linked to Lady Dustin as a parallel character, imho). Dunk refuses to accept the horse that Lady Rohanne offers to him. Dany accepts "my silver" as a wedding gift from her husband. There are lots of other examples of buying or taking horses, Sandor Clegane's horse "Stranger" refusing to cooperate for anyone other than The Hound, Bran eating horse flesh through his direwolf, Summer; Jon Snow ingesting horse blood with oats at the direction of Qhorin; Dany eating a stallion heart, Ser Gregor beheading his own horse, etc. 

So the first sign that Lady Dustin may be making some progress in her clandestine efforts to get out of Stark jail and exert some Barrow King influence is that she gives a pair of colts to Little and Big Walder just as they become allies of Ramsay Bolton (no longer Ramsay Snow). Remember what happened to the horse she sent south with her husband when he accompanied Ned Stark to the Tower of Joy? Ned returned the horse but not the bones of her husband. It was clear that Ned was not going to let that gift horse out into the world or to keep it for himself. Remember how Lady Dustin described Brandon and Lyanna Stark? They were like centaurs. And Lady Dustin could not possess Brandon, much to her frustration. 

To some of your other points: Yes, Garth Greenhands was a unifying (if that's the right word) figure for many Houses of Westeros. Kind of a god-king. I think he is part of a cycle that is central to GRRM's plotting of the clash of kings: green and brown taking turns in nature, with green leaves falling to the ground, decaying to make topsoil and feeding the new growth that becomes living plants and the next generation of leaves. The off-kilter seasons in Westeros are a sign that green and brown are out of balance and something or someone needs to restore them to a normal cycle. Garth has disappeared and Westeros needs him back. House Tyrell, as the current lords of Highgarden, are big players in the effort to "bring back" Garth. Renly was playing the Garth role until he was killed by (probably) Melisandre and Stannis, using the shadow assassin. 

Which brings me to:

1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

You don't have to think about the gods as being alive. The point is that you have two different cultures competing in Westeros. One who worship the Trees, and one who worship the Drowned God or some sorts and are a sea faring people. While the Tree God worshippers had no ships.

Actually, I believe the masts burned by Melisandre and Stannis on Dragonstone were very significant as they were carved images of the new gods that incorporated masts of ships that were made from TREES. In other words, House Targaryen managed to unify several important religions by creating these objects of worship that were unique to their House. Melisandre and Stannis burned those masts. (Take a look at the burned Wat's Wood in The Sworn Sword and the drowned trees in Tyrion's voyage along the Rhoyne for related symbolism.) 

There is symbolism in Tyrion's arc about feeding acorns (also known as mast) to a pig. A storm snaps off a ship's mast but the remaining stump of the mast looks like a dwarf. I believe this may signal Tyrion's attempt to reestablish the tree/mast unity that provides a stable foundation for a unified Westeros.

A key to understanding the balance of worship is House Hoare, a line from the Iron Islands that becomes ruler of the Riverlands. Their sigil chains together a ship, tree, grapes (associated with the Arbor and the Reach, through House Redwyne) and a raven. The background colors on their sigil are also significant. The person who successfully controls Harrenhal will be the one who reunites Westeros (and might also bring about the balancing of the seasons). It is important that Arya was the one who freed the northmen from the dungeon at Harrenhal, even though there was a secret plan for them to be freed by Vargo Hoat's men. At one point, Arya muses about whether Harrenhal is her home. Others in this forum have traced the line to show that Catelyn, through her mother's line, is an heir to House Whent and possibly an heir to Harrenhal. (We have to see what happens to Edmure and his Frey baby.) Arya is the secret Team Stark player practically and symbolically preventing others from taking control of Harrenhal at a strategic turning point. 

Uniting the Ironborn and the tree worshippers may be a major challenge in reestablishing the balance for Westeros. The last king of the Mountains and Rivers was Tristifer Mudd. The lover who most desires to marry Asha Greyjoy is named Tristifer. Theon remarks about Asha's ship being Black Wind and Robb Stark's wolf being Grey Wind and says, "We are all windy." At the Kingsmoot, Asha offers pine cones and a stable life in the green lands to the Iron Island people who have to know that Pyke is crumbling and falling into the sea. Theon wishes that he could have married Sansa or Arya and he tells Lady Dustin that he wished he were a Stark. There is a longing for unification that, I suspect, will find some kind of fulfillment before the series ends. 

[Mourning Star]

5 hours ago, Seams said:

Ned Stark never arranged a remarriage for her, which we know was his responsibility because we saw Bran debating what to do for Lady Hornwood or her heir. Was keeping Barbrey Dustin single and isolated part of Ned's strategy for neutralizing Lady Dustin and making sure she never produced an heir?

Ned never returned Lord Dustin’s bones, and never sought to have Lady Dustin remarry. Call me crazy but it almost sounds like Lord Dustin didn’t die at the Tower of Joy! 

I find Lady Dustin to be a fascinating character. I simply do not believe the show of being a bitter vengeful old widow can be real. And I think there are a lot of little details surrounding her that are interesting, and probably worth their own topic as it would be a total tangent here.

As always, I enjoyed your post!

But… since I’m here, and you are talking Grey horses…

Outside, beneath a cold autumnal sky, the hunters were pouring through the gates. Ben Bones led the way, with the girls baying and barking all around him. Behind came Skinner, Sour Alyn, and Damon Dance-for-Me with his long greased whip, then the Walders riding the grey colts Lady Dustin had given them. His lordship himself rode Blood, a red stallion with a temper to match his own. He was laughing. That could be very good or very bad, Reek knew.

Seven men arrive by horse.

One riding a large red stallion.

And oddly enough, the two young Freys ride grey mounts that were gifts of Lady Dustin.

Make of it what you will!

[Seams]

1 hour ago, Mourning Star said:

I find Lady Dustin to be a fascinating character.

I love her, too. I had a completely different theory about her before I started writing that post for this thread - I was thinking that she was on team Manderly. But now I have my doubts. She is mysterious.

 

1 hour ago, Mourning Star said:

then the Walders riding the grey colts Lady Dustin had given them.

I had forgotten what color the colts are! Nice catch!

[AlaskanSandman]

8 hours ago, direpupy said:

Honestly that sounds more like a split among the First Men not two different cultures, you would have the ones who accepted the pact with the CotF and those who don't and would have continued to worship there own gods.

I am assuming that you are talking about the fortress on Battle Isle beëing made of similar material to the Valyrian roads and Dragonstone?

This apart from the Dragon bit sounds more like  the Andals to be honest.

Well, how else do new civilizations and cultures generally form? By splitting from another. They both very well could have came from the same place and developed two different ways of lives and culture.  

Well, assuming there were dragon riders, and or seafarers, would explain the Iron Born, The Magnars on Skagos, House Redwyne of the Arbor, and House Hightower due to reports of them being sea farers who made their home on Battle Isle, an Island. The fused stone isn't found on the Arbor or Skagos so far as we know, so wasn't resting my case on that.

It should, it is like the Andals, and the Rhoynar.

[AlaskanSandman]

8 hours ago, Seams said:

I think this starts to get at a major set of plot points about the unfolding "House Bolton vs. Everyone else" struggle in the north right now; probably even the "House Stark vs. Everyone else" dynamic that preceded the consolidation of power by the early Stark Kings in the North.

House Stark is closely connected with the color grey - to the extent that I can't think of another house with a grey sigil. (If there is one, I bet it's a symbolic House Stark.) You could make a case for House Greyjoy but the close link between Theon Greyjoy as the ward of Ned Stark (and, later, the Prince of Winterfell) leads me to think that House Greyjoy and House Stark are symbolic parallels. 

Of course, Lady Dustin expresses her anger toward Ned Stark and toward the refusal to betroth her to Brandon Stark (the uncle). She also shows her disdain for the "grey rats," and blames them for leading House Stark into bad decisions. In other words, the grey House Stark and the grey rats (maesters) have teamed up to frustrate the hopes and plans Lady Dustin has for herself and her family. 

As the widow of House Dustin, Lady Dustin is, essentially, the Barrow Queen. She is the sole surviving heir to the oldest monarchy in the North and she has been stymied at every turn in her efforts to reestablish a barrow dynasty: she was not allowed to marry the heir to House Stark. Ned Stark didn't return the bones of her husband, so she had no recyclable material to haul into a barrow and bring about a magical rebirth. (Review the wildling beliefs about burning bodies or about shadowcats breaking bones to prevent the Others from wighting them.) Her nephew was killed by Ramsay Snow. (A symbolic Jon Snow.) Ned Stark never arranged a remarriage for her, which we know was his responsibility because we saw Bran debating what to do for Lady Hornwood or her heir. Was keeping Barbrey Dustin single and isolated part of Ned's strategy for neutralizing Lady Dustin and making sure she never produced an heir? She can't even get her hands on Ned Stark's bones, which might allow her to create a glamour or a Rattleshirt-style of "reborn" Ned under her control. 

I realize that Lady Dustin was originally a Ryswell, with a horse-head sigil. I'm not 100% sure, but I think that horses are symbolic souls of some kind. Giving someone a horse and having that horse accepted as a gift puts the person's soul under your control - or maybe control isn't the right word. But there's a link or a sponsorship that causes a bond to form. We see Egg accept a mule from his brother, who is studying to be a maester and, later in the same story, accept a horse as a gift from Rohanne Webber (who is linked to Lady Dustin as a parallel character, imho). Dunk refuses to accept the horse that Lady Rohanne offers to him. Dany accepts "my silver" as a wedding gift from her husband. There are lots of other examples of buying or taking horses, Sandor Clegane's horse "Stranger" refusing to cooperate for anyone other than The Hound, Bran eating horse flesh through his direwolf, Summer; Jon Snow ingesting horse blood with oats at the direction of Qhorin; Dany eating a stallion heart, Ser Gregor beheading his own horse, etc. 

So the first sign that Lady Dustin may be making some progress in her clandestine efforts to get out of Stark jail and exert some Barrow King influence is that she gives a pair of colts to Little and Big Walder just as they become allies of Ramsay Bolton (no longer Ramsay Snow). Remember what happened to the horse she sent south with her husband when he accompanied Ned Stark to the Tower of Joy? Ned returned the horse but not the bones of her husband. It was clear that Ned was not going to let that gift horse out into the world or to keep it for himself. Remember how Lady Dustin described Brandon and Lyanna Stark? They were like centaurs. And Lady Dustin could not possess Brandon, much to her frustration. 

To some of your other points: Yes, Garth Greenhands was a unifying (if that's the right word) figure for many Houses of Westeros. Kind of a god-king. I think he is part of a cycle that is central to GRRM's plotting of the clash of kings: green and brown taking turns in nature, with green leaves falling to the ground, decaying to make topsoil and feeding the new growth that becomes living plants and the next generation of leaves. The off-kilter seasons in Westeros are a sign that green and brown are out of balance and something or someone needs to restore them to a normal cycle. Garth has disappeared and Westeros needs him back. House Tyrell, as the current lords of Highgarden, are big players in the effort to "bring back" Garth. Renly was playing the Garth role until he was killed by (probably) Melisandre and Stannis, using the shadow assassin. 

Which brings me to:

Actually, I believe the masts burned by Melisandre and Stannis on Dragonstone were very significant as they were carved images of the new gods that incorporated masts of ships that were made from TREES. In other words, House Targaryen managed to unify several important religions by creating these objects of worship that were unique to their House. Melisandre and Stannis burned those masts. (Take a look at the burned Wat's Wood in The Sworn Sword and the drowned trees in Tyrion's voyage along the Rhoyne for related symbolism.) 

There is symbolism in Tyrion's arc about feeding acorns (also known as mast) to a pig. A storm snaps off a ship's mast but the remaining stump of the mast looks like a dwarf. I believe this may signal Tyrion's attempt to reestablish the tree/mast unity that provides a stable foundation for a unified Westeros.

A key to understanding the balance of worship is House Hoare, a line from the Iron Islands that becomes ruler of the Riverlands. Their sigil chains together a ship, tree, grapes (associated with the Arbor and the Reach, through House Redwyne) and a raven. The background colors on their sigil are also significant. The person who successfully controls Harrenhal will be the one who reunites Westeros (and might also bring about the balancing of the seasons). It is important that Arya was the one who freed the northmen from the dungeon at Harrenhal, even though there was a secret plan for them to be freed by Vargo Hoat's men. At one point, Arya muses about whether Harrenhal is her home. Others in this forum have traced the line to show that Catelyn, through her mother's line, is an heir to House Whent and possibly an heir to Harrenhal. (We have to see what happens to Edmure and his Frey baby.) Arya is the secret Team Stark player practically and symbolically preventing others from taking control of Harrenhal at a strategic turning point. 

Uniting the Ironborn and the tree worshippers may be a major challenge in reestablishing the balance for Westeros. The last king of the Mountains and Rivers was Tristifer Mudd. The lover who most desires to marry Asha Greyjoy is named Tristifer. Theon remarks about Asha's ship being Black Wind and Robb Stark's wolf being Grey Wind and says, "We are all windy." At the Kingsmoot, Asha offers pine cones and a stable life in the green lands to the Iron Island people who have to know that Pyke is crumbling and falling into the sea. Theon wishes that he could have married Sansa or Arya and he tells Lady Dustin that he wished he were a Stark. There is a longing for unification that, I suspect, will find some kind of fulfillment before the series ends. 

I tend to think the gods, or some form of them are real. I was just using that as an example to get across to him about there being two civilizations with out him getting hung up on the gods. 

 

Though I tend to suspect both Fire and Ice are coming from the same source, the Trees. So im suspect about both sides really. 

 

Cat and the Whents and Harrenhal all tie back to the Iron Born imo. Her symbol is also that of a fish. The Starks I suspect of being linked to Garth so a union between Tully and Stark is kinda the same as Iron Born and Starks. Unless the blood or something runs more true in the Iron Born.  Long as Edmure survives though and they wipe out house Frey, then Riverrun can just claim the Twins through Edmure's son. 

[AlaskanSandman]

1 hour ago, Seams said:

I love her, too. I had a completely different theory about her before I started writing that post for this thread - I was thinking that she was on team Manderly. But now I have my doubts. She is mysterious.

 

I had forgotten what color the colts are! Nice catch!

She tells Theon that Manderly is a fat craven. As craven as Theon. He ran from the South and he'll run again.

[direpupy]

9 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Well, how else do new civilizations and cultures generally form? By splitting from another. They both very well could have came from the same place and developed two different ways of lives and culture.  

A split between the First Men sounds a lot more plausible so that would be a point towards your theory, certainly it would be a good explanation for the Ironborn and the Sistemen. But i'm less certain when it comes to the Hightowers who very much seem to have had amiable relations with the rest of what would become the Reach, its the same for the Redwyne's and the Farman's in the Westerlands, so to put them in with the Ironborn reavers and the Sistermen pirates whose culture is based on atacking others is something i would be reluctant to do. As for Skagos we simply know so little about them i can not really make a call on that one

[AlaskanSandman]

11 hours ago, direpupy said:

A split between the First Men sounds a lot more plausible so that would be a point towards your theory, certainly it would be a good explanation for the Ironborn and the Sistemen. But i'm less certain when it comes to the Hightowers who very much seem to have had amiable relations with the rest of what would become the Reach, its the same for the Redwyne's and the Farman's in the Westerlands, so to put them in with the Ironborn reavers and the Sistermen pirates whose culture is based on atacking others is something i would be reluctant to do. As for Skagos we simply know so little about them i can not really make a call on that one

Yea Im honestly not sure we'll get to much concrete evidence beyond multiple vague suggestions. 

[Mourning Star]

21 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

She tells Theon that Manderly is a fat craven. As craven as Theon. He ran from the South and he'll run again.

Ya, but it sure seems like Lady Dustin is doing at least a little and probably a lot of lying to Theon in Dance, so it's hard to know what to take at face value. For instance, we know that Manderly isn't just going along with the Freys and Boltons. Doesn't it seem possible that this comment is really more to see what Theon knows? and what side he is on? Remember, Lord Manderly knows Theon didn't kill Bran and Rickon, and likely so do the Clans. Does Lady Dustin? The events of the sack of Winterfell aren't exactly common knowledge.

"I …" Theon put a gloved hand against a pillar. "… I wanted to be one of them …"
"And never could. We have more in common than you know, my lord. But come."

I'm still very intrigued by Lady Dustin, and have to think there is more going on here. I suspect she may well be a loyal Stark bannerman yet.

There are some other interesting details, like her always wearing black. She was married to Willem Dustin for like 6 months... and he died 17 years ago. Not only that, but they still fly his flag along side her own?

Lord Bolton led him toward the keep, where the banners were those of the late Lord Dustin and his widowed wife. His showed a spiked crown above crossed longaxes; hers quartered those same arms with Rodrik Ryswell's golden horsehead.

And Ned never tried to get her to remarry? And never returned Lord Dustin's bones? And she didn't just go get them if she cared so much?

Call me a conspiracy theorist all you want, something smells.

[AlaskanSandman]

7 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

Ya, but it sure seems like Lady Dustin is doing at least a little and probably a lot of lying to Theon in Dance, so it's hard to know what to take at face value. For instance, we know that Manderly isn't just going along with the Freys and Boltons. Doesn't it seem possible that this comment is really more to see what Theon knows? and what side he is on? Remember, Lord Manderly knows Theon didn't kill Bran and Rickon, and likely so do the Clans. Does Lady Dustin? The events of the sack of Winterfell aren't exactly common knowledge.

"I …" Theon put a gloved hand against a pillar. "… I wanted to be one of them …"
"And never could. We have more in common than you know, my lord. But come."

I'm still very intrigued by Lady Dustin, and have to think there is more going on here. I suspect she may well be a loyal Stark bannerman yet.

There are some other interesting details, like her always wearing black. She was married to Willem Dustin for like 6 months... and he died 17 years ago. Not only that, but they still fly his flag along side her own?

Lord Bolton led him toward the keep, where the banners were those of the late Lord Dustin and his widowed wife. His showed a spiked crown above crossed longaxes; hers quartered those same arms with Rodrik Ryswell's golden horsehead.

And Ned never tried to get her to remarry? And never returned Lord Dustin's bones? And she didn't just go get them if she cared so much?

Call me a conspiracy theorist all you want, something smells.

Oh totally, I just thought id throw it out there since at face value its what she claims. Yet Manderly also claims to be loyal to the crown and shushes his daughter when speaking loyal northern talk.

[AlaskanSandman]

On 12/14/2021 at 2:12 AM, direpupy said:

 

A Clash of Kings - Tyrion V

"That is from the cold, my lord," said Hallyne, a pallid man with soft damp hands and an obsequious manner. He was dressed in striped black-and-scarlet robes trimmed with sable, but the fur looked more than a little patchy and moth-eaten. "As it warms, the substance will flow more easily, like lamp oil."

The substance was the pyromancers' own term for wildfire. They called each other wisdom as well, which Tyrion found almost as annoying as their custom of hinting at the vast secret stores of knowledge that they wanted him to think they possessed. Once theirs had been a powerful guild, but in recent centuries the maesters of the Citadel had supplanted the alchemists almost everywhere. Now only a few of the older order remained, and they no longer even pretended to transmute metals . . .

 

 

It is suggested that the Maesters only rose in prominence with the rise of the Targaryen's, and that the Targaryen's were not that big into the Pyromancers. So there is no reason to think Torhen "Should" have a Maester, let a lone 3 Maesters. Or that Maesters have been serving the Major houses as they do now, since their inception back in the Age of Heroes.

[direpupy]

12 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

A Clash of Kings - Tyrion V

"That is from the cold, my lord," said Hallyne, a pallid man with soft damp hands and an obsequious manner. He was dressed in striped black-and-scarlet robes trimmed with sable, but the fur looked more than a little patchy and moth-eaten. "As it warms, the substance will flow more easily, like lamp oil."

The substance was the pyromancers' own term for wildfire. They called each other wisdom as well, which Tyrion found almost as annoying as their custom of hinting at the vast secret stores of knowledge that they wanted him to think they possessed. Once theirs had been a powerful guild, but in recent centuries the maesters of the Citadel had supplanted the alchemists almost everywhere. Now only a few of the older order remained, and they no longer even pretended to transmute metals . . .

 

 

It is suggested that the Maesters only rose in prominence with the rise of the Targaryen's, and that the Targaryen's were not that big into the Pyromancers. So there is no reason to think Torhen "Should" have a Maester, let a lone 3 Maesters. Or that Maesters have been serving the Major houses as they do now, since their inception back in the Age of Heroes.

Not really, what is suggested is that the alchemists until the decline of the magic the alchemists used, where rivals of the maesters. We also have no idea when they where founded, so while the maesters are a First Men creation the alchemist might not have arrived until they Andals. In that sence it actually makes more sence for a First Men house to have a maester then to have a alchemist.

I see no reason for the existence of they alchemist to make it strange that Torrhen had a maester, even the fact he send three is not that strange. Some of his bannerman may have brought there's, they need not all three have been in his service.