Characters Who Married Up

[Lilac & Gooseberries]

48 minutes ago, Megorova said:

 

Which doesn't make any difference to my post, because Baelor still could have offered to Maron any of those three Princesses. But he didn't, because the age difference between them and Maron was too significant. Thus - Maron was a younger sibling. And by the laws of Dorne (which Dornishmen were able to keep even after the merging) - it's the older sibling, no matter of what gender, who becomes the successor. So Maroh thru marriage with Daenerys did leveled-up.

Oh dear more fan fiction instead of actual facts.

[Lilac & Gooseberries]

32 minutes ago, Willam Stark said:

What is the point of this topic exactly?

Something different than Arya/Jon/Bloodraven is the worst villain who ever lived is always welcomed. No?

[Jaenara Belarys]

8 minutes ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

Oh dear more fan fiction instead of actual facts.

Standard operating procedure. Didn't you hear?

 

Also, @Megorova. Westeros doesn't care about "age gaps." This is the world where Sansa was married at twelve, and Unwin Peake's daughter died in childbirth at you guessed it, age twelve. 

[Megorova]

@Jaenara Belarys Isn't it correct that if Myriah had divorced with Daeron, then she would have regained a right to succeed the Throne of Dorne? Because it's the same kind of thing as this -> Tyrion is Tywin's heir, though if Jaime will be extricated from the Kingsguard, then Jaime will again become Tywin's heir, and will succeed him as the Lord of the Casterly Rock. That's what Tywin was trying to do.

~~~

 

More examples of those who married up:

Dalla to Mance Rayder. She's a mere smallfolk, or maybe a daughter of a chieftang, and her husband is the King-Beyond-The-Wall.

Selyse to Stannis -> she's from a bannermen House, and he is from the rulling House of Stormlands, furthermore - the King's brother.

Jorah Mormont to Lynesse Hightower.

Tysha to Tyrion.

Hizdahr to Dany -> he used to be just one of the Great Masters of Meereen, and thru marriage with her became the King of Meereen.

Serra to Illyrio -> from a pleasure slave to the wife of a wealthy trader.

There was also this character - called the Widow of the waterfront, she's the one who gave a ship to Jorah and Tyrion. She used to be a bedslave, but then married with the Triarch of Volantis.

8 hours ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

Cersei to Robert: the marriage made her the Queen. You cannot get any better position than the Queen's.

Yes, you can -> Durran Godsgrief married with a Goddess. His wife was Elenei - the Goddess of the Wind, and a daughter of the Sea God. Some people marry with Nobility, some with Royalty. But Durran surpassed all of them, by marrying with a Deity. Husband of a Goddess That's what I call significant leveling-up thru marriage.

Durran ruled for a thousand years, could be that it was the marriage with a Goddess that made him more than a mere mortal, and thus his life-span got significally extended.

Edited December 11, 2021 by Megorova

[Megorova]

15 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

Westeros doesn't care about "age gaps." This is the world where Sansa was married at twelve, and Unwin Peake's daughter died in childbirth at you guessed it, age twelve. 

Of course they do. ->

There was only one case (from the top of my head I remember only one ) when the wife-to-be was older than her fiencee - Larra Rogare was 7 years older than Viserys.

In all the other cases the females were always younger than males. So I'm sure that Maron was a younger of the two Martell-siblings. Significally younger, and thus it wouldn't have suited for him to marry with any of Daeron's/Baelor's sisters. Because if he is indeed was (closer in age to Daenerys than to Daeron II and Baelor I's sisters) 19-25 years younger than them, then by the time when he would have been able to perform his husbandry duties, his wife would have been already past her childbirthing years. And that's why things like that - an older bride with a younger husband, is not something that is usually done, not even at Westeros. With Larra and Viserys being a rare exception.

[Jaenara Belarys]

19 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Isn't it correct that if Myriah had divorsed with Daeron, then she would have regained a right to succeed the Throne of Dorne? Because it's the same kind of thing as this -> Tyrion is Tywin's heir, though if Jaime will be extricated from the Kingsguard, then Jaime will again become Tywin's heir, and will succeed him as the Lord of the Casterly Rock. That's what Tywin was trying to do.

 

No. The marriage was consummated and produced multiple children. I think it could be slightly possible with the bias towards men if it was the other way around, but the only way out a of a consummated marriage is for your husband to contract a sudden, fatal case of sword-through-bowels. (The woman needs to wait for her husband to kindly die is what I mean). 

9 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Of course they do. ->

 

The objections to that have nothing to do with age gaps (foriegn birth, "wrong gods", guards, language stuff). Indeed, one of the reasons everyone is so happy to see Viserys is that he has a beautiful wife in her childbearing years, which FaB went into briefly.  Besides, we're talking about a situation with older man/younger woman. 

Edited December 11, 2021 by Jaenara Belarys

[Megorova]

15 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

Besides, we're talking about a situation with older man/younger woman. 

Don't try to move the point of discussion onto a different topic. No, we're not talking about a situation with older man/younger woman. We're talking about the situation that Maron Martell, most likely, based on the fact that he married with princess Daenerys only 17 years after his sister married with Daeron, because he was a younger out of the two Martell-siblings. And if that is so - if he is indeed was younger, then it was Myriah and not Maron, who would have became the Ruler of Dorne, after the death of their father.

Which also means that originally Maron was merely a second in line of the Dorne Throne's succession. So for him to marry with a royal Princess was a level-up.

Ex-Royalty and Ex-second in line to Dornish Throne < Husband of the 7K's Royal Princess and the King's sister.

 

Also - the point of my previous post was that the situations in which there is an older man/younger woman, are fairly normal in Westeros. Even if there's a huge age gap between the spouses. Though that's not the same with a reversed situations, in which the wife is older than the husband. Things like that are not done. Not usually. Not in Westeros.

And that's why Maron didn't married with Princess Rhaena, Daena, or Elaena, who were significally older than him. So instead his wedding with a Targaryen Princess, which would have finalized the pact arranged by Baelor I between Martells and Targaryens, had to be postponed for many years, until Maron and Daenerys both have reached a suitable age for the wedding. Which had occurred 17 years after Daeron's wedding with Myriah.

Whether it was possible for Myriah to divorce with Daeron and to return to Dorne as the Rulling Princess, is a secondary question. Because whether it was possible or not, in no way influences the fact (or nearly a fact) of Maron Martell, most likely, being a younger sibling, which also means that without those two marriages - Myriah's with Daeron and Maron's with Daenerys, which were a combo-deal, Maron wouldn't have became the Rulling Prince of Dorne. The point of the Pact was for both of the Martell-siblings to marry with Targaryens. So without that Pact, which was a Double-Marriage Pact, Myriah would have remained being heir apparent of the Prince of Dorne, and after her father's death she would have became the Rulling Princess of Dorne, and Maron would have remained being just her younger brother. Though the Pact happened, was finalized thru double-marriages between their families, and thus Maron leveled-up - from the second in line to the Ruler of Dorne.

So Maron did indeed leveled-up thru his marriage with Daenerys. Which was the point of my original post in this thread. But you just had to come here, and to begin nagging and nagging and nagging

You wrote ->

16 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

Westeros doesn't care about "age gaps."

in response to my post ->

17 hours ago, Megorova said:

17 hours ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

How so? He was the ruler of his own free domain not a mere vassal.

No, originally he wasn't that. Because there was a big age difference between Daeron II and his younger sister Daenerys. Daeron married with Maryah Martell, and Daenerys married with Maryah's younger brother - Maron. So if Maryah didn't married with Daeron, then she, as an older sibling, would have ruled over Dorne. So Maron, as a younger sibling, originally was not a rulling Prince of Dorne, he became it only thru his sister's marriage with Daeron, and his own marriage with Daenerys. Because both of those unions turned Dorne into the 7th Kingdom.

And I provided in my next post the evidences that people in Westeros do care about "age gaps", in cases when it's an older wife VS younger husband. Which would have been Maron's case, if he married with either Rhaena, Daena, or Elaena. And that's why he didn't married with either of those three, why Baelor the Blessed didn't negotiated for Maron's marriage with one of his sisters, and instead arranged his marriage with a significally younger Princess Daenerys, who was close to Maron's own age. And you're trying to switch the focus off the topic with ->

15 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

The objections to that have nothing to do with age gaps (foriegn birth, "wrong gods", guards, language stuff). Indeed, one of the reasons everyone is so happy to see Viserys is that he has a beautiful wife in her childbearing years, which FaB went into briefly.  Besides, we're talking about a situation with older man/younger woman. 

What all that gibberish, that you wrote, has to do with what I wrote in answer to your objection that - Westeros doesn't care about "age gaps". And no - we were not talking about a situation with older man/younger woman. I was talking about THE OPPOSITE. I provided viable arguments that proved that your statement about Westerosians not caring about age gaps, in Maron's case was wrong, and you're trying to switch the focus onto a different point, not the one that was written in my post? You're constantly pestering me on this forum, and when you're failing, once again, to show that I'm wrong and to mock me (since you registered on this forum, you post Haha reaction to a lot of my posts), you're writting all sorts of irrelevant gibberish, and trying to switch the focus onto a completely different point, from what I actually wrote. Really? Does that tactic works for you in real life? Why won't you just stop nitpicking at everything I write. Your pathetic attempts to outsmart me, are getting stale. Do something with your attitute, otherwise you will look like a complete moron with all those Hahas, when it will be confirmed that my (tinfoily and absurd, in your opinion) theories were actually correct.

~~~

@The Bard of Banefort Sorry for taking your thread off topic.

Joffrey Lydenn, who originally was just a mere knight, married with the King Gerold III Lannister's daughter, and became the King of the Rock.

"The Maid brought forth a girl supple as a willow with eyes like deep blue pools that Hugor took as his first wife." <- that girl to Hugor of the Hill. He was the first King of the Andals, and she had a shady origin, maybe she was even a clone or an alien, or something like that, in case if the Seven were aliens.

The Tiger-woman to the Bloodstone Emperor.

Samantha Tarly to both of her husbands - Ormund and Lyonel Hightowers.

Alys Rivers - a bastard servant of House Strong, she claimed that her son was Prince Aemon Targaryen's legitimate child. So they supposedly secretly married.

Edited December 12, 2021 by Megorova

[The Bard of Banefort]

3 hours ago, Willam Stark said:

What is the point of this topic exactly?

Just for fun. List-making is fun.

Edited December 12, 2021 by The Bard of Banefort

[Julia H.]

20 hours ago, Groo said:

Are we talking about where the character started or their position at the time of the marriage? 

Hm... how about Dany to Drogo? 

Also, Mellario to Prince Doran.

[Lord of Oldstones]

Bronn-Lollys 

Merchant daughter to Lord Corbray 

Among nobles:

Baelish-Lysa

Minisa to Hoster

Alyn to Baela

Cassanna Estermont to Lord Steffon 

Some Mormont to Alaric Stark

Morya Darry to Merrett Frey

Jeyne to Robb 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Thomaerys Velaryon]

On 12/11/2021 at 4:23 AM, The Bard of Banefort said:

Bonus: Planned marriage of Lord Manderly to Viserra Targaryen (he had already outlived four wives and had heirs of his own; she was a fifteen-year-old princess)

I still don't understand this one. Why did Alysanne do this ? She had a good relationship with Lord Alaric Stark but he died 15 years prior to this betrothal. Did Alysanne really think the best option to maintain a good relationship with the North was to betroth her 15 years old daughter to an elderly lord ? Why not betroth Viserra to Theomore's grandson (or his great-grandson Desmond depending on the timeline) instead ?

[Jaenara Belarys]

36 minutes ago, Thomaerys Velaryon said:

I still don't understand this one. Why did Alysanne do this ? She had a good relationship with Lord Alaric Stark but he died 15 years prior to this betrothal. Did Alysanne really think the best option to maintain a good relationship with the North was to betroth her 15 years old daughter to an elderly lord ? Why not betroth Viserra to Theomore's grandson (or his great-grandson Desmond depending on the timeline) instead ?

There is a theory about that Alysanne was jealous or somesuch about Viserra.....I don't recall the specifics. But yes, thinking that betrothing her daughter to an old man who already has heirs (heirs to have a marriage with instead of some old man) is a bad idea. 

[Lilac & Gooseberries]

48 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

There is a theory about that Alysanne was jealous or somesuch about Viserra.....I don't recall the specifics. But yes, thinking that betrothing her daughter to an old man who already has heirs (heirs to have a marriage with instead of some old man) is a bad idea. 

What? 

[Jaenara Belarys]

1 minute ago, Lilac &amp; Gooseberries said:

What? 

*shrugs. That was what I read last year. 

[The Bard of Banefort]

17 minutes ago, Lilac &amp; Gooseberries said:

What? 

The problem is, there's no logical reason for Viserra to be betrothed to Old Man Manderly, so we need to look elsewhere for answers. Alysanne was apparently miffed that Viserra wanted to marry her brother and become the queen, despite Alysanne having married her brother against her mother's wishes and becoming the queen. She was essentially punishing her daughter for being ambitious and beautiful. 

[The Wondering Wolf]

On 12/11/2021 at 9:40 PM, Megorova said:

No, originally he wasn't that.

Doesn't matter. He was the son of the Prince of Dorne and at the time of the wedding he was the ruling Prince himself and thus an independent ruler. Apart from her own family, Daenerys couldn't have married anyone more prestigious.

[The Bard of Banefort]

18 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

The problem is, there's no logical reason for Viserra to be betrothed to Old Man Manderly, so we need to look elsewhere for answers. Alysanne was apparently miffed that Viserra wanted to marry her brother and become the queen, despite Alysanne having married her brother against her mother's wishes and becoming the queen. She was essentially punishing her daughter for being ambitious and beautiful. 

It occurred to me that this is even worse when you consider that Viserra was their last marriageable daughter. Daenerys, Alyssa, and Daella were dead, Maegelle was in the Faith, Saera had run off, and it sounds like Gael had a handicap that prevented her parents from arranging a match for her.

[Daeron the Daring]

On 12/11/2021 at 11:10 PM, Megorova said:

P.S. If you meant what Daeron II's reasons to arrest Daemon had to do with marrying up, then - if Daenerys left Maron, then Dorne possibly would have extricated itself from the other Kingdoms. Maryah also could have divorced with Daeron II, and if she did and then returned to Dorne, then she would have replaced Maron as the ruler of Dorne. So as long as everyone remained in their assigned places - Daeron married with Maryah, and Daenerys with Maron, Maron was a rulling Prince of Dorne, and not a younger brother of a rulling Princess of Dorne. So that's how it's connected to leveling-up thru marriage.

Doesn't make much sense. Just think about it. The dornishmen negotiated with Baelor a truce that's been sealed with a marriage pact. If Daeron's wife were to inherit when the marriage was arranged, it would've meant handing over their desired independence, for which they fought for amd technically won. The situation was rather similar to what Doran had in his mind. From the moment he tought Arianne will marry Viserys, he tought of Quentyn as his heir, not her. Daeron II was expected to sit on the chair at some point, so that meant a Martell Queen at some point anyway it happens. It was something the Lords of The Sveen Kingdoms would've not agreed to, Baelor was looked down for being an idiot in this case (as well), as it benefited the dornishmen. That wouldn't be the case if Baelor's treaty was good for the Iron Throne as it would've meant the annexation of Dorne. Otherwise, (and I mean if Myriah Martell wasn't disinherited) we would remember Baelor I as the one who brought Dorne under the Crown. Hence Myriah Martell wasn't meant to inherit from the moment of the peace treaty and was never considered as such after. It was beneficial because it beought Daeron II and Maron closer, but nothing else. 

Also, the reason Daeron I was included in the peace treaty and not a sister of Baelor and Daeron I is because they weren't 'for sale' at the time. They've never been until Baelor died, because he never wanted them to marry. He was a strange person, and the reason why he locked his sisters in a tower is because they were too big of a temptation to him. 

The point is, in no way was Maron Martell marrying up, unless everyone who marries a Targaryen marries up. 

The thing that actually indicates Maron's age isn't that he didn't marry a sister of Baelor, but that he wasn't married by the time Daenerys became available. 

But at the same time Maron Martell could've been a smart guy, and awaited for Daenerys to become available. I mean, if he wasn't a stupid as a brick (or even multiple bricks), he probably foresaw that this IT vs Dorne will end badly for the dornish anyway at some point, so he might have aimed for those divine rights he got from the annexation of Dorne without a fight. But even if not, the age gap could very well had been 10 years, with him being 25 and Daenerys 15. Easy to imagine, if you ask me, and the age gap could also very well be a thing that made the marriage a one with no love included (and that is supported from every direction). 

Edited December 13, 2021 by Daeron the Daring

[Daeron the Daring]

21 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

The problem is, there's no logical reason for Viserra to be betrothed to Old Man Manderly, so we need to look elsewhere for answers. Alysanne was apparently miffed that Viserra wanted to marry her brother and become the queen, despite Alysanne having married her brother against her mother's wishes and becoming the queen. She was essentially punishing her daughter for being ambitious and beautiful. 

Given how religious of a mindset Jaehaerys I and Alysanne had, that could very well be a reason. 

2 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

and it sounds like Gael had a handicap that prevented her parents from arranging a match for her.

Gael wasn't handicapped. She grew up as Alysanne's toy because of the unlucky events of the past when her sisters died, which made Alysanne mentally break, so she kept Gael pretty close to herself, who was groomed in a bad way. Half of that could be enough foe Gael to turn out like she was. And she doesn't sound handicapped, just innocent, which shows her inexperience with the world, and that can be traced bacj to Alysanne, who made her sleep alongside her until the end of her time. 

Edited December 13, 2021 by Daeron the Daring

[The Young Maester]

I’m pretty sure Jenny of oldstones is the character that married way above her station.

A random low born women of questionable parentage. Managed to marry the crown Prince of absolute and legitimate royal blood.