The Wheel of Time: The Wheel Weaves as Jeff Bezos Wills (Book Spoilers)

[fionwe1987]

I do have a feeling we'll get to see Lan cut loose and display similarly implausible levels of swordsmanship skills in the Blight.

[A True Kaniggit]

I am going to complain about the first look of the Blight. 
 

My own opinion, a clear dividing line between a verdant green thriving land and a flat, dead, sickly, wasteland would have been better. 
 

The weird grey jungle thing just didn’t do it for me.

(I’m giving the show leeway on where Malkier was actually located. Not between Shienar and the Blight apparently)

[Wouter]

On 12/17/2021 at 3:40 AM, fionwe1987 said:

I definitely didn't see the DR reveal coming this early or in this way. Rand accepting it on his own, that quickly, just doesn't ring true, and it will have ramifications later on.

Also, I really wonder if the exit of Barney Harris affected even this reveal, and the rest of the story of this episode. Moiraine asking the Reds to find him seems truly bizarre.

On the whole, it was an ok episode, though. Fal Dara was fine. The Ways were pretty close to what they are in the books, too, especially given how much everything else is changed. 

Tigraine fought for way too long, at the start. I get it, they want to establish her as a badass warrior. She's standing in for all the Aiel, too, so they needed her to be remembered as a warrior when the Aiel come up again next season. But it still felt too long, given that.

For me, Rand accepting it - enough to go to Moiraine to volunteer to go to the Eye - does ring true of the character. Not only is going it alone consistent with his book character (his TDR arc), in the show they have raised the stake with the misinterpreted/corrupted/false prophecy that anyone who goes with the Dragon to the Eye will die. Rand is protecting his friends, a great moment for the character in the show. There is still room for doubts afterwards, especially if Rand does not yet get revealed publicly during ep.8.

I also was floored by Moiraine's message to the Red Ajah. She may be acting on her stated goal of keeping the dragon from giving allegiance to the Dark One, but if the Reds interrogate Matt it may lead to unintended consequences. On the bright side, it may kickstart Matt book 3 storyline.

Ways were fine and sufficiently spooky, even if Machin Shin was somewhat underwhelming compared to the books. Some of what the Wind said was used effectively (especially thinking about Rand and Moiraine), though like apparently everyone here I could have done without the Perrin/Egwene/Rand thing.

The Blood Snows opening to me is too unrealistic even for the WOT universe, but many people actually seemed to like it (the emotional aspect of it, involving Tam and Rand, works I guess). Like you, I think it went on too long and as Ran wrote, it would have been better to have one or two other Maidens doing some of the fighting.

On 12/17/2021 at 10:59 AM, Ran said:

More negatively on the fight: why were siege engines bombarding empty positions on the Dragonmount, and was that thrown dagger Power-forged to be able to pierce steel plate from fifteen yards away? 

Besides that, what else? I guess I don't get Min not mentioning that she saw Rand holding a baby, which kind of implies he will in fact survive the Eye of the World. Convenient for her to just forget things she'd seen. I also feel like Min may not be a significant character in the Judkins plan for the rest of the series, but I could be wrong...

I liked when Lan said that before Moiraine he had nothing to live for... but expected him to say that he only had something to die for (lost Malkier) and instead he said he didn't have that, either. WTF?

 

Is it possible the projectiles were part of a small volcanic eruption of Dragonmount? Alternatively, it could be channelers from the White Tower instead of siege engines.

Min did mention "three beautiful women" in Rand's future (which also kind of implies he will survive). I wonder if she would include herself, if she is even aware of the identity of those women. She did not say he would have a relationship with all three, though. I suppose it's possible that Egwene remains in the picture, in the show, though this doesn't seem too likely.

I had the same reaction to Lan saying "nothing to live for", expecting "only something to die for". Maybe a mistake by the writers, though they may also deliberaly want to tone down the vengeance for Malkier thing.

I do applaud the way they brough Lan and Nynaeve to life, though, including the presence of the other Malkieri.

On 12/17/2021 at 10:16 PM, SpaceChampion said:

Regarding Agelmar, didn't seem hostile to Moiraine to me.  He was being a dick to his sister really.  Shienar is suppose to be more patriarchial, and he was patronizing her.  That probably pissed Moiraine off.  Agelmar apologized, but didn't sound like he understood for what he was supposed to be sorry for.

 

Show-Agelmar greeted Lan quite warmly, but he obviously doesn't have a good relation with show-Moiraine, unlike in the books. It seems like Agelmar is wary of Aes Sedai wanting to exercise control over Shienar, an interesting departure of the books (and maybe necessary to explain the absence of a permanent cadre of Green Aes Sedai in a way that does not make the Aes Sedai look incompetent or evil, as Maia wrote). I wonder if his sister not being raised Aes Sedai, despite her obviously having a decent channeling ability, may be part of that.

On 12/18/2021 at 2:00 PM, Maia said:

I also think that it was absolutely in character for Rand to come forth to save Egwene and his friends, particularly since he believes that it would be a one-and-done deal that he won't survive. He could still become plausibly reluctant when it becomes clear that he has to be there for the long haul and break the world no matter what he does. Also, it lays foundation for him trying to go it alone in the future.

So, one of the things that don't work in the books for me is the absence of AS at Tarwin's Gap and the fact that the Shienarans still revere them afterwards.  I mean, it has been known for months that the attack was coming and it would have required a level of incompetence worse than Elaida's on Siuan's part not to send help, BA machinations and the White Tower being flawed here or there. That alone should have led to her deposition, frankly. The show actually improves on this, by making  Shienarans less friendly to the White Tower and by making the attack sudden (presumably).

OTOH, there are certain things that seem muddled in the episode - like, The Eye of the World being just a day's foot march away from Fal Dara - so why did they initially aim for a Waygate in the Blight?

I  thought that in the episode 6 when Siuan sent her to the Eye they both were convinced that it was a death sentence not just for the kids who weren't the Dragon, but also for Moiraine herself? So why was she so shaken by the viewing that an Amyrlin would be her downfall, when she already knew that she was going to her death on Siuan's word? And how can it possibly happen? I mean in the books it is the other way round and even if they intend to kill Moiraine for good at the end of the 3rd season, would they really rob her of a heroic death against Lanfear in favor of Elaida offing her somehow?      

A couple of things where Moiraine's inability to lie was forgotten, IMHO - in the previous episode she said that they couldn't know for certain what would happen to the non-Dragons, but in this one she states plainly that the others would die. But there was nothing that would have led her to change her opinion about this - rather, Min's visions of the girls suggest the opposite, that they might have a future. She also shouldn't have been able to tell Lan "it is nothing", when it clearly isn't. Oh, well.

Fully agreed on the Rand reveal. I don't think Rand really knew before he encountered the Trolloc in the Ways and Machin Shin right after that, or even later once he admitted to himself that he had channeled there (and with Dana's door). We know that in the books, Rand (and Nynaeve) could channel without being consciously aware they did so.  Rand knew he was born outside the Two Rivers since he heard Tam's confession, but then he didn't know that would make him the candidate (and Nynaeve also comes from outside the Two Rivers, in the show). Rand's reaction was a great moment for the character. No doubt, his friends will come to help him anyway, in ep.8.

From ep.8 previews, a major attack on Tarwin's Gap/Fal Dara will come, and this time it looks like Agelmar isn't too confident. This may mirror the books a bit, where the "official" view was that the Trolloc army could be beaten, but privately characters in the Shienaran army were reduced to hoping that the capital city would hold and didn't seem to think Fal Dara stood a chance. Maybe the ability of the Dark One to move forces through the gates will also be a factor in his ability to mass a huge army against Fal Dara. I liked the reactions of the Shienarans in the books, after they were saved by a miracle. I hope we get something similar in the show, even though they shouldn't aware it was Rand.

As for the waygate, I think that the one in the Blight would be very close to the Eye and thus preferable to going actually through the Blight (more dangerous than the ways?), even if they need the same time (unlike the shortcut to Fal Dara, but non-linear I suppose).

The Amyrlin Seat being the downfall of Moiraine is curious, but maybe it is as simple as Elaida (or whoever deposes Siuan) blocking Moiraine's ability to get the White Tower to support Rand Al'Thor they way she would want, eventually leading to her facing Lanfear.

I don't think Moiraine is 100% certain everybody but the Dragon would die at the Eye, but when she is honest instead of being misleading without technically lying, she seemingly admits that the possibility of survival is very remote. However, Moiraine is more than likely wrong about that.

 

[Ran]

Yeah, I don't understand why they went so desert-y with Shienar (is Shienar even named?) Would have made the contrast with the Blight better. 

Re: fighting skills in WoT, yes, there's a level of superheroism/wuxia in the stuff Jordan describes. It's not purely "realistic" fighting, especially at high levels from Aiel to Warders and on through the very top end of blademasters and their non-sword-wielding equivalents (i.e. Mat, Couladin, Rhuarc). That said, I think the idea that your typical Maiden in the midst of labor is up to defeating five Companions of Illian, who are elite soldiers by Westlands standards, especially when it's three-on-one is just silly. Judkins talks about it being made to seem realistic, but... well, you know, it's cinematic. Which is fine, except again the Lan situation (and to a lesser degree Tam, who seriously got short-changed compared to what he managed to do in the book).

Book-wise, I'd say that you get this sense that your typical warrior society Aiel is, one-on-one, a little bit superior to your typical elite soldier (who tend to have the advantage of armor and horses) -- just -- but then as soon as you put a named top tier- fighter in the mix the nameless Aiel get cut down in droves, so they basically fight as well as plot dictates. Ditto things like Fades, which are extremely hard to kill and Rhuarc (who we're told is basically Lan-level as a fighter) said he and four others taking on three of them might have been manageable, but they'd have lost two or three, and if things went bad all of them might have died; but on other occasions people are able to fight and kill Fades on their lonesome.

I think the most significant thing about Aiel as a military force is that Jordan basically makes them very disciplined and very, very hardy, but in things like New Spring and Crown of Swords it's plain that they don't necessarily think they can just slice through a superior force (such as Lan noting 400 Aiel were not going to attack 600 men on high ground) and fight tactically to maximize their chances rather than just believing any one of them is worth several times their number of Wetlanders.

[Wouter]

On 12/17/2021 at 2:01 PM, Werthead said:

Certainly nothing in Episodes 1-6 hint at a Perrin crush on Egwene, so I wonder if it was a rewrite, otherwise they missed lots of opportunities to flag it earlier.

[...]

Rand apparently carrying the secret of knowing he was DR around since Episode 1 did feel a bit off though. One advantage of the way the books did it was giving him doubt through his dad's fever dream and not really confirming it until later on, and giving Mat and Perrin comparable reasons why it might be them. The problem with an adaptation is that the second Tam opens his mouth to start talking about the mountain and the snow and everything else, and we flash to it, it's game over.

In ep.1 Nynaeve was aware of Perrin's (probably harmless) little crush on Egwene. Laila didn't go to the Tavern, and Nyneave seemed to know that was because of Perrin's supposed feelings. Nynaeve noted that it's hard to work iron alone (she probably got that from talking to Laila herself, as she was annoyed that Perrin went there to see Egwene after her ceremony), after which Perrin got the hint.

I don't think Perrin has anything to blame himself for (other than his berseker accident, of course), and for me he is indeed telling the truth.

Rand did not know any more in the show than he did in the books; he came from outside the Two Rivers, but in the show at least, so did Nynaeve.

[fionwe1987]

I wasn't a fan of the first look of the Blight either, but that's because it looked like a lot of bug shrubs, and had an overly regular, almost tended appearance.

It isn't a wasteland, though. It is a forest, thick and full of blighted trees and shrubs:

Quote

Mile by mile the corruption of the Blight became more apparent. Leaves covered the trees in ever greater profusion, but stained and spotted with yellow and black, with livid red streaks like blood poisoning. Every leaf and creeper seemed bloated, ready to burst at a touch. Flowers hung on trees and weeds in a parody of spring, sickly pale and pulpy, waxen things that appeared to be rotting while Rand watched. When he breathed through his nose, the sweet stench of decay, heavy and thick, sickened him; when he tried breathing through his mouth, he almost gagged. The air tasted like a mouthful of spoiled meat. The horses’ hooves made a soft squishing as rotten-ripe things broke open under them.

...

As the mountains drew closer, so did the true Blight. Where a leaf had been spotted black and mottled yellow before, now foliage fell wetly while he watched, breaking apart from the weight of its own corruption. The trees themselves were tortured, crippled things, twisted branches clawing at the sky as if begging mercy from some power that refused to hear. Ooze slid like pus from bark cracked and split. As if nothing truly solid was left to them, the trees seemed to tremble from the passage of the horses over the ground.

With the Aiel, it's definitely implied their  fighters are up there with Warders, and their best are as good as any blademaster, but their success in battle has more to do with their hardiness, their speed, and the fact that their constantly battle each other, which keeps their skills honed. 

That a Maiden could potentially fight and kill 5 Illianer Companions isn't too out there, from the books. The issue is she's in labor, and that makes the whole thing way more absurd. 

[Corvinus85]

2 hours ago, Werthead said:

True, but "the elite warriors of Illian," is not necessarily anything worth celebrating. Illian seems to rank in the middle (at best) of the powers in terms of military acumen, but their reputation comes from beating Tear (who are clearly incompetent) and beating the Amadicians/Whitecloaks during the Whitecloak War (whom they massively outnumbered and still managed to lose several key battles and get their king captured) twenty years earlier, and holding their borders against Murandy and Altara, neither of whom could run a piss-up in a brewery. Plus they were latecomers to the war, so before the Blood Snow had limited combat experience with the Aiel.

Arguably still dumb, but I can see the argument that the Illianers in general and the Companions did not have recent substantive combat experience and were outclassed as a result. Tam, who fought in the Whitecloak War, should have known better though (and to be fair he didn't get a spear through the gut).

By elite warriors I meant they should have the best equipment available. They are practically Illian's royal bodyguards.

[Wouter]

17 hours ago, john said:

Talking about the two scenes in general and including Rands parentage, which the show hasn’t got into yet, I’d say that the main difference is that Martin is trying to subvert the special child trope whereas Jordan is just straight up doing a trope.

I wouldn't call it a straight trope. That the Dragon Reborn is stated to go mad and to probably break the world (again), figuratively but also quite literally, does make it different from straight chosen one tropes. It's not Eddings.

[Poobah]

Re: Aiel fighting skills, I agree it's a bit plot dependant, for instance TDR Gaul and one other Aiel fought the two hunters of the horn and 10 retailers, killing several and wounding the rest while outnumbered six-to-one, and while the Aiel are always strong and feared later on they're definitely less effective than perhaps they should be based on their earlier efficacy. Their numbers also seem to fluctuate a good bit as required too.

24 minutes ago, Ran said:

Yeah, I don't understand why they went so desert-y with Shienar

I was wondering if they were going for a sort of fairly high altitude arid steppe type area? It did seem desert-y though.

[Lord Varys]

5 hours ago, UnplayableChar said:

It's a weird comparison to me. Tower of Joy was tragic. It was the end of an era, the last stand of legends like Hightower and Dayne. Man of honor pitted against each other due to cirumstances. The episode seven cold open was...some fun stuff to entertain viewers. It wasn't necessary to the plot, or had any real meaning.

Again, the context was mainly the action scene as such and Tam taking in a stranger's baby as his own, compared to what GoT did with that (which was basically a joke) - and Ned's not-exactly-super-unusual motivation to take care of his nephew.

3 hours ago, Maia said:

Yea, since book... 6 I think when Rand figured out who his mother had been, I was expecting that he'd at least send one of the Maidens or ex-Maidens who knew Shaiel to speak to Galad about her when the opportunity presented itself. Particularly since it  seemed to me that Galad's insistence on trying to always do the right thing no matter what stemmed in large part from the trauma of both his biological parents (apparently) selfishly abandoning their duty, as well as him, their son, and causing so much destruction and pain. Tigraine's disappearance led to the Aiel war, after all, as well as an Andoran civil war after the old queen died, and Taringail's intriguing in order to remain relevant contributed to it, while his later attempt to murder and usurp Galad's beloved adoptive mother  Morgase cost his life. IIRC Galad was his father's favorite child and 8-10 when his father died, so he may have sensed what happened on some level. Therefore, his whole life he had this huge burden to bear and he really deserved to know that his birth mother loved him, missed him, tried very hard to get back to him and only left in the first place because of the greater duty to her country and the world. And he should have heard it from somebody who knew her, not from a letter as happens in the books, IIRC.

I also wondered if Galad would begin channeling at some point, since both of his parents produced strong sparkers with other people. Frankly, Morgase should have been worried for her sons in this respect, once it became clear that Elayne was a sparker. Even though Trakands/Galad weirdly never aknowledged that Moiraine was their aunt on page, having 2 such closely related female sparkers in the family didn't bode well for their male  relatives.

Rand finds out in book 6 ... but Galad is basically only told during the Last Battle as per the wiki entries...? That's not just underwhelming but outright stupid.

One would imagine that Rand would use his kinship to Galad to ensure the Whitecloaks join him ... depending when exactly Galad rises to the top there (I've not gone through all that, so I don't know the specifics).

In this context I also wonder whether in the very end the harem of 'the chosen one' ever thinks about how fucked up it is going to be that they have

Spoiler

to be with/fuck Moridin-Rand now, or whether their love is portrayed as so 'pure' that it doesn't affect their feelings at all that their beloved darling looks completely different now ... like Evil Incarnate, in fact.

I actually expect that it is not touched upon at all ... but who knows?

[Ran]

I really don't think it's true that Aiel are up there with Warders. I'd place them under them, based on how the Warder-trained Younglings outperform them. Yes, the Younglings are getting worn down through attrition, but that's because there's a hell of a lot more Shaido around.

@Poobah

Yeah, I feel like Gaul's basically near top-tier for the Aiel. We don't generally see that performance in some other situations. And he's a particularly huge one, if I recall right.

 

[Werthead]

44 minutes ago, A True Kaniggit said:

(I’m giving the show leeway on where Malkier was actually located. Not between Shienar and the Blight apparently)

Malkier has been swallowed by the Blight. So the Blightborder used to run along the northern border of Malkier, 200+ miles north of Shienar, but the Blight consumed Malkier and the border now runs just north of Fal Dara. So that bit was correct (in EotW they make a big deal of the Seven Towers and the Thousand Lakes now lying within the Blight).

Tarwin's Gap in the book is a massive mountainous valley between the Mountains of Dhoom and the Spine of the World. It was huge, something like 300 miles long, and Fal Dara was located somewhat close to the southern edge of it, with the implication that other fortresses like Fal Sion and Camron Caan lay along the same border along the edge of the gap. It was a more realistic bit of geography than in the show, where Tarwin's Gap now appears to be about 500 feet long and 25 feet wide and a very convenient bit of geography creating an absurd bottleneck for Fal Dara to defend.

I get why they simplify this stuff but in this case it does feel egregiously silly.

[A True Kaniggit]

4 minutes ago, Werthead said:

Malkier has been swallowed by the Blight. So the Blightborder used to run along the northern border of Malkier, 200+ miles north of Shienar, but the Blight consumed Malkier and the border now runs just north of Fal Dara. So that bit was correct (in EotW they make a big deal of the Seven Towers and the Thousand Lakes now lying within the Blight).

Tarwin's Gap in the book is a massive mountainous valley between the Mountains of Dhoom and the Spine of the World. It was huge, something like 300 miles long, and Fal Dara was located somewhat close to the southern edge of it, with the implication that other fortresses like Fal Sion and Camron Caan lay along the same border along the edge of the gap. It was a more realistic bit of geography than in the show, where Tarwin's Gap now appears to be about 500 feet long and 25 feet wide and a very convenient bit of geography creating an absurd bottleneck for Fal Dara to defend.

I get why they simplify this stuff but in this case it does feel egregiously silly.

I was more complaining about about how Lord Agelmar made it seem Shienar has been at the front lines for over a thousand years. When in reality they had a buffer state between them and the blight until like 40 years ago. 

[Wouter]

1 hour ago, Wouter said:

The Amyrlin Seat being the downfall of Moiraine is curious, but maybe it is as simple as Elaida (or whoever deposes Siuan) blocking Moiraine's ability to get the White Tower to support Rand Al'Thor they way she would want, eventually leading to her facing Lanfear.

 

Quoting myself here for a different idea: Siuan's dream about the Eye may have been manipulated by Ishy. And Min saying that may have made Moiraine consider that she is walking into a trap.

[Corvinus85]

27 minutes ago, A True Kaniggit said:

I was more complaining about about how Lord Agelmar made it seem Shienar has been at the front lines for over a thousand years. When in reality they had a buffer state between them and the blight until like 40 years ago. 

I thought Tarwin's Gap was always a path Trollocs would use even in Malkier's days. Doesn't Shienar have an old song about defending Tarwin's Gap?

[A True Kaniggit]

26 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

I thought Tarwin's Gap was always a path Trollocs would use even in Malkier's days. Doesn't Shienar have an old song about defending Tarwin's Gap?

Manetheran has a song about Tarwin’s gap. (Handed down to the Two Rivers)

The geography never made sense considering how long Malkier survived. 

[SpaceChampion]

Speaking of character arcs, I've been looking at the archetypal character arcs in WOT, as well as Marvel movies, and been slowly writing some articles I might post somewhere. One thing that is kind of neat about WOT is how even in the structure there is this division between genders, for Egwene and Rand. It couldn't be more clear that structurally, these are the two primary characters.

Archetypal character arcs are representations of how anyone develops through life, going from youth to adulthood to old age.  The sequence is a "female" arc alternating with a "male" arc.  A story usually only does one arc, but long series typically do several in sequence or they repeat themselves.

Female arcs are about individuation of the ego, while male arcs are about integration of the ego.  There are 3 types of each.

I noticed distinguishing these 6 arcs from each other can be done diagnostically by looking at the type of antagonist or antagonist force that the protagonist has to deal with.  So this is a neat diagnostic tool one can apply to most stories.  There are always two antagonistic forces from the four elements of all stories, Setting, Idea, Character and Event.  Chose two out of four, and that gives only six options, so it lines up well.

Setting is always tied to motivations generated in response to the social or physical setting.  Ideas are reflected in the functional plans the protagonist and antagonist are trying to carry out.  Characters embody mindsets that reflect the theme.  Events are the result of the goals of the characters.

Female arcs always have setting-based antagonists because it is always the setting that the protagonist has to individuate from.  The first arc is called the Maiden Arc, with an Authority figure from the social setting, and a Predator, a representation an Event/Goal the protagonist wants to avoid.  To use an example that perfectly illustrates it, the Marvel movie Shang Chi has both those rather literally.  The Predator is a soul-sucking entity that the Authority figure, the Mandarin, is trying to free from its prison.

Before every Maiden arc is a Child arc, which is about a character learning responsibility or losing naivety.  Child arcs are flat, a state of getting ready for their future Maiden arc. Flat archetypes are about neither individuating or integrating their egos, but a learning stage necessary before the next change arc. They also affect the world around them while flat arc protagonists remained steadfast (like every Captain America movie) against being change by the world. Most of the other characters (Elayne, Nynaeve, Mat, Perrin, Moiraine) are these types of steadfast characters, and you could say it is a feature of being ta'veren.

The 6 archetypal change arcs from start to finish, are Maiden > Hero > Queen > KIng > Crone > Mage.

There are also 6 flat arc learning stages: Child before Maiden, Lover before Hero, Parent before Queen, Ruler before King, Elder before Crone, and Mentor before Mage.   (Lover might be have romance, but it is really about developing a passion for anything.)

WOT splits the change arcs between Rand and Egwene by gender.

Rand only goes through the 3 male arcs:  Hero > King > Mage. 

Egwene goes through the 3 female arcs:  Maiden > Queen > Crone.  She gets all the setting-based antagonists: the Black Ajah, the Seanchan, the White Tower and the Rebel Aes Sedai who seek to have her as a puppet, and finally Elaida.

Maiden Arcs have a Setting and Event antagonists. Hero Arcs have Idea and Character antagonists. For Queen, it's Setting and Character, for King it's Idea and Event. For Crone it's Setting and Idea, for Mage it's Character and Event.

Egwene's Maiden Arc doesn't begin until book 2.  She seems to be on a flat Child arc in EOTW, but it's almost invisible because we don't really any of her internal thoughts to see what she was struggling with.  It's probably growing past naivety. She needed more than ambition in the existing system, but a desire to change the system.

Hero Arcs usually have an antagonist in the protagonist's own mindset, typically a fear, and in this case it's Rand's fear of madness and power. The Hero Arcs starts with a Sick King that needs an Elixer to cure, and a Dragon standing in the way. So the Dragon in Rand's Arc is the fear of being the Dragon Reborn is pretty on point. The Sick King is the Taint, the Elixer is the Eye.

As everyone knows, Rand's Hero Arc repeats itself for two more books. Probably because the Hero arc is not a matter of obtaining the McGuffin / Elixer to fix things, because it cannot be fixed unless he integrates his identity. He gets three tries at it before he gets it right.

In The Shadow Rising he begins his King Arc, which he remains with until the final two books. A King Arc requires a Sacrifice, in order to avoid a Cataclysm (a new Breaking of the World, losing the Last Battle, losing to the Dark One, etc). Rebels are threatening the kingdom, who in WOT is pretty much everyone. It's the way he thinks he can win (being hard, and bending people to his will) that he has to sacrifice. It's a sacrifice of allowing himself to be vulnerable. That might seem a more mindset-based antagonist, but it affects his plans and strategies, so is idea-based because of the Sacrifice component, but it is informed by the mindset of his prior arcs.

Finally, after coming to his revelation on Dragonmount, Rand begins his Mage Arc. This arc has antagonists that are more systemic but still about mindsets of the characters. The weakness of humanity is the Evil Influence that must be dealt with. The final antagonist is a Death Choice, which for Rand is choosing between the Light and the Dark itself. This often results in death for the Mage himself -- or like in The Eternals a choice between death for the whole world or death for the newly hatching Eternal. For Rand, it's about the choice between death of free will, or the death of everyone over and over again as the Wheel repeats the cycle endlessly.

For Egwene, she begins a Queen Arc when she becomes Amyrlin of the Rebels. The antagonists of this arc are an Empty Throne where no one is properly leading, and Invaders that want to take that power. In this case, it's all the different factions in the Rebel camp. The Queen Arc culminates when the Queen knows what to do to unite the kingdom behind her and believes herself worthy of that mantle.

For her Crone Arc, it begins when she's captured by the White Tower. The crone has to deal with being out of power, isolated and dismissed, and finding a new power and new purpose. The antagonists are a setting-based antagonist of the Death Blight, and an idea-based Pilgrimage, usually with several temptations to sway her from the path. The path is resistance, the Death Blight is the White Tower, and the Pilgrimage is the punishment she must endure to gain the admiration and support of Aes Sedai who also want to solve the Death Blight.

The structure of these archetypal arcs I first learned about here, but the diagnostic by antagonist type is entirely my own.

[Werthead]

2 hours ago, A True Kaniggit said:

Manetheran has a song about Tarwin’s gap. (Handed down to the Two Rivers)

The geography never made sense considering how long Malkier survived. 

In the books Tarwin's Gap runs through the eastern frontier of Malkier, so it could act like a funnel to allow Shadow armies to sidestep Malkier and invade Shienar directly. However, it was unclear if Malkier had done anything to fortify the gap further up into their territory (geography was never RJ's strong suit, certainly not in Book 1 when he really did not give a shit about it and actually refused to create maps for the books until Tom Doherty strong-armed him; this is why the WoT maps are not great).

[felice]

4 hours ago, Wouter said:

For me, Rand accepting it - enough to go to Moiraine to volunteer to go to the Eye - does ring true of the character. Not only is going it alone consistent with his book character (his TDR arc), in the show they have raised the stake with the misinterpreted/corrupted/false prophecy that anyone who goes with the Dragon to the Eye will die. Rand is protecting his friends, a great moment for the character in the show.

Yeah, that's a key difference. Though I think it's just assumption rather than prophecy; she's expecting a confrontation between the Dragon and the Dark One to be more like a kaiju battle than a sword duel, and any regular humans in the vicinity are going to get squashed like bugs.

4 hours ago, Wouter said:

I also was floored by Moiraine's message to the Red Ajah.

Indeed. Either the writers didn't think it through properly in their haste to write Mat out, or Moiraine thinks it doesn't matter if he gives up her secrets because it's all going to be over shortly anyway.

4 hours ago, Wouter said:

Ways were fine and sufficiently spooky, even if Machin Shin was somewhat underwhelming compared to the books. Some of what the Wind said was used effectively (especially thinking about Rand and Moiraine)

Poor Loial doesn't even get any insecurities.

4 hours ago, Wouter said:

I had the same reaction to Lan saying "nothing to live for", expecting "only something to die for". Maybe a mistake by the writers, though they may also deliberaly want to tone down the vengeance for Malkier thing.

Malkier doesn't exist any more, so throwing his life away in pointless vengeance wouldn't really be dying for it.

4 hours ago, Wouter said:

The Amyrlin Seat being the downfall of Moiraine is curious, but maybe it is as simple as Elaida (or whoever deposes Siuan) blocking Moiraine's ability to get the White Tower to support Rand Al'Thor they way she would want, eventually leading to her facing Lanfear.

I suspect the idea was primarily to imply that Siuan would betray her, when it's actually going to be the new Amyrlin who'll be her enemy, without necessarily giving much thought to what "downfall" means.

[Ran]

8 hours ago, felice said:

Malkier doesn't exist any more, so throwing his life away in pointless vengeance wouldn't really be dying for it.

He has an oath and feels duty bound to fight a war he cannot win, to avenge that which can’t be defended, He tells Nynaeve that she deserves better than the surety of a widow’s weeds. He’s not prepared to die for Malkier, he’s prepared to die out of duty to his oath and the sacrifices that had been made so that he could live to see that duty carried out.

He definitely was prepared and expecting to die in fulfillment of that duty -- one thrust on him as an infant, clearly, but one which he internalized and accepted as being important to him. 

So, yeah, I'm with Wouter. If they want to have him say he had nothing to live for, it's absolutely true that he had something to die for.