The Wheel of Time: The Wheel Weaves as Jeff Bezos Wills (Book Spoilers)

[Arakasi]

Yep. Demandred was clean shaven. So was Rahvin as well. Anyway both Sammael and Demandred fulfill the jealous warrior who was not quite as good as Lews Therin and hates him for it. You probably don’t need both. Aginor is probably more interesting overall than Rahvin but unless you go down the dagger route It’s kinda pointless. Even the daggers have little to do in the books. Rahvin also is not that huge, but he does play heavily into a Mat character building and he also is in one of the coolest scenes in the story. (The end of TFoH which also heavily involves Lanfear)

[Werthead]

I've always seen Demandred as kind of Tom Ellis, except maybe a tad more clean-shaven. I suspect he'd be quite expensive for them to get now. They could do it, but might have to go cheap on some other actors.

[Poobah]

Well hmm, I'm not sure how I feel about that finale.

I thought the acting from the principles was great here, and the dialogue was pretty good too, but some of the actual story decisions?

Spoiler

Ishamael was a delight.

OTOH I really don't like the Seanchan costuming, especially the damane with what those ball gag looking muzzles or whatever.

I'll have a ruminate while I watch The Expanse I guess.

[Gertrude]

That was ... something.

I liked a lot of it, but some of it was surprising and not in a good way. Lots to think about, but my main objections are at the end with Nyneave/Egwene and Perrin/Fain and the whole throne room squad. I didn't like those choices at all.

[IFR]

There were a lot of bold choices.

Spoiler

I laughed at Moiraine and Rand's casual jaunt through the Blight. I half expected Rodents of Unsual Size to walk by.

And it was amusing to hear Moirane warn Rand not to touch anything, while she was a mess, and had no problem sitting down for a chat.

Egwene had an impressive leap in power. Went from barely channeling to being able to heal death. I feel like we missed a training montage.

Fain is a bit less fearsome antagonist here I guess. He stabs Loial in the chest, leaves him bleeding, but that's not enough to take him down apparently.

And I guess the Breaking of the World wasn't the fault of men and women not working together to find an appropriate solution. It was entirely the fault of that singularly arrogant Lews Therin and the men who followed him for not listening to the sage advice of the much wiser "Tamerlyn Seat". Interesting interpretation of the message of Jordan's work, Judkins.

Lots more fascinating bits to dissect, but I think I'll leave it at that.

Anyway, it was a fun ride, but I think I'm getting off of this one. The show has very little to do with Wheel of Time the books at this point, and mid-tier cheesy fantasy shows with lazy writing and editing aren't really interesting to me, so I will search elsewhere for a show to kill time.

[Slurktan]

I liked it a lot but then again it's easy for me to keep books and show separate.  This isn't Game of Thrones, the books are done and I can read how they go whenever I want.  They want to make changes, go for it, I'm along for the ride.  If they don't work I can just read the books.

How do I do spoiler code again? EDIT NVM

Some thoughts

Spoiler

 

- I like that they got rid of the leashes for the damane.

- Did Egwene heal death or heal being burned out? OR  did Nyneave heal herself lol

- I honestly thought they were going to kill off Rand, pleasant surprise.

- Ishamael was awesome.  I wonder if that's going to be his "death" and then we get Moridin going forward

- Definitely combining Great Hunt and Dragon Reborn into 1 which is good.

- Interesting that they play up Mat being a baddy with a bad guy perspective and not just Moiraine writing him off.

- Presumably that was one of the 7 seals that broke.

- Agelmar got got.  Should have worn the good armor bro.

- Min gets her Boys haircut and clothes because she runs. Interesting choice.

- So Loial is dead right?

- What was Rand looking at afterwards in the blight?  I can't make it out or figure out what it is

 

[Arataniello]

Hmm, rather a mess of a finale, with none of the characters seeming to have the same motivations for their actions as they have in the books.  I supposed the end was suitably dramatic of a cliffhanger, and the muzzles on the damane were to make it more obvious that the leashed ones were totally submissive.

[IFR]

15 minutes ago, Arataniello said:

I supposed the end was suitably dramatic of a cliffhanger, and the muzzles on the damane were to make it more obvious that the leashed ones were totally submissive.

 I was very amused by the design of the giant metal pacifiers.

16 minutes ago, Slurktan said:

I liked it a lot but then again it's easy for me to keep books and show separate.  This isn't Game of Thrones, the books are done and I can read how they go whenever I want.  They want to make changes, go for it, I'm along for the ride.  If they don't work I can just read the books.

Oh I agree. But I wish that if they wanted to write a totally different story they would at least put some effort into its logical cohesion and character development.

[jurble]

I wasn't a fan of the finale, mainly disappointed.

Spoiler

Really wanted a super-saiyan Rand moment.

Loial getting stabbed is also wtf, but maybe he'll live iunno.

 

Lorewise, I'm not a fan of calling Lews Therin "the Dragon reborn", or that Latra Posae Decume was "Tamyrlin Seat."  Or that she clearly foresaw the consequences of his actions, instead of her own plan to, you know, just nuke the Dark One with those giant sa'angreal.  

There was also the implication that Moiraine could've taught Rand to channel which I hope doesn't pan out.

 

[Corvinus85]

Well, we'll always have the books. 

The good/really solid

Spoiler

Rand and Ishamael - everything about the alternate reality and how Rand turns on Ishamael. I thought it was clever that Rand essentially tricked Ishamael by getting him to give him the tutorial on how to channel, but then Ishamael tricked Rand at the end, and Rand cracked the seal. I wonder if the show will only have the one seal that is now cracked, or six more massive seals; or maybe each of different size.

The intro with Lews Therin and seeing a glimpse of the AoL.

The OK/fairly good

Spoiler

Fain and the Fades; another way to show how Darkfriends work. There was also a line of dialogue about Darkfriends having sabotaged the draw bridges. The fact that the Horn of Valere is going to be a thing in the show. The Shienaran culture, ready to fight to the death etc.

The bad and rushed

Spoiler

The journey through the Blight was meh and it stems from the choice of putting only 2 characters there, which meant the time had to be cut down in favor of showing the other characters.

If you don't have the budget, don't do the battle. Even GoT got that right in the first season.

There is some writing here that is the type of fodder for people who hate the 'wokeness' in modern stories. In episode 4 we got to see how powerful Nynaeve was with the mass healing. But here, Rand's takedown of Ishy was far more subdued, and aided by a powerful sa'angreal. OTOH, they took away his book destruction of the Trolloc army and gave it to women. OK, but but at least do it logically - why were they so far behind the battle lines? Why allow your soldiers to die when the use of the OP would be far more effective in the narrow gap? Not to mention that Amalisa had no idea what she was getting with Nynaeve and Egwene, so her plan was to just stand there in the open field to stem the tide of the Trollocs with half trained women who were not strong enough in the OP. Wow. 

I think Perrin's character got even worse after the previous episode. Now he is also impotent and cowardly.

The choice of killing all those book characters. There is such a thing as simply not having characters return if they don't serve a purpose to the story, you don't need to kill them off. One armor may be better forged than another, but it should take far more than a Trolloc chucking a spear without any momentum to penetrate steel plate, regardless of the quality. And if you don't want Trollocs to force their way through the window slits, build them higher. Uno, too, what the hell? And there is Loial, who was still stirring after Fain left, but Fain had the Shadar Loggoth dagger. So Loial should be dead. smh

I'm glad they setup the next season, but

Spoiler

this is what can annoy me in an adaptation. I would have liked to be in the room with Judkins and the production people when they decided that a'dam that look like collars with chains attached are bad, but mouth gags are better. Or that insect looking helmets are not cool enough, skull helmets are better. sigh At least I can tell from that scene that they intend to have the Seanchan be a big part of season 2. 

On what happened to Moiraine

Spoiler

The visuals implied she was stilled, but it's also possible Ishy merely shielded her and tied off the shield. So maybe Moiraine doesn't know that's possible (I don't remember if that is common knowledge early on in the book) and eventually the shield wears off and she'll be fine. Because if she was stilled, unless Nynaeve figures out that healing earlier in the show, then the whole painstaking premise of setting up what happens to a Warder when his AS dies was  for nothing.

I watched the finale with my brother who is not a book reader. He gave the season a 7/10 and said it didn't really grab him like other fantasy shows had.

[IFR]

In case anyone was wondering about Moiraine, 

Spoiler

according to Brandon Sanderson in his live viewing, Moiraine was stilled, not shielded. Which makes sense given the context. Why shield an enemy instead of stilling them when both are within your capabilities?

 

[Corvinus85]

6 minutes ago, IFR said:

In case anyone was wondering about Moiraine, 

  Hide contents

according to Brandon Sanderson in his live viewing, Moiraine was stilled, not shielded. Which makes sense given the context. Why shield an enemy instead of stilling them when both are within your capabilities?

 

Why not kill her then, too? But more importantly, as I mentioned above.

Spoiler

What does this do to Lan? They spend all of episode 5 setting up all of that Warder suffering thing, only for Moiraine to be stilled, and apparently Lan is fine.

 

[IFR]

@Corvinus85

Spoiler

I agree with you. I mean it makes sense in what we saw, which was Moiraine in some way being incapacitated from the Power. Why would Ishamael simply leave her shielded? That would be baffling.

But you're right that as it is, it is still nonsensical. Much of this episode was.

I leave it to others to try to justify the decision of the writers for you. 

 

[Gertrude]

58 minutes ago, IFR said:

In case anyone was wondering about Moiraine, 

Spoiler

I saw that and it seemed like he'd read some scripts but there were still some surprises for him as he watched. Anyway, the visuals in that moment were consistent with what we've seen of shielding rather than stilling. A net settled over Moiraine and we didn't see the power leave her like we did with Logain. Either way we shall just have to wait and see. I think I prefer a shield, but even if she is stilled, I think it's not going to change all that much about Moiraine's story - Lan's story on the other hand, if she's stilled that becomes really weird.

Also a random tangent - I am so over a blade through the back of the head and out of the mouth.

[Arakasi]

Spoiler

Don’t mind Moiraine being stilled. In the books the Forsaken were a bunch of jokes and the only time one did anything of note (Rahvin) it got taken back with the biggest undo button ever. Ishy was a giant loser he fights Rand three books straight and loses every time.

Every time a forsaken came up against a main character the main character won. Mat can outthink anyone, Perrin can stop balefire and of course Rand beats everyone. The forsaken are only scary or capable against minor characters. Moiraine can still be an advisor to Rand just not channeling. She pretty much gets eclipsed by all the Emonds fielders anyway.

So this one change I think shows forsaken as scarier than we ever did in the books.

My biggest problem with the show is production not plot. Everything is so small and they don’t seem to use CGI well like Witcher 2 did to expand shots. Is it bad production or pandemic or insufficient budget? Regardless the problems I have with this is:

1. Production 

2. Balancing being coherent and character driven and doing fanservice. If you got only 64 episodes you gotta cut a lot more and just make the core essentials. It feels like they’re making a show like one would make a highlight reel. Gotta show the ways and horn and blah and blah.

3. This ties into 2 but they’re not letting the characters grow slowly. The channellers are way ahead now than in the books. I’d wish they’d let the characters develop slower.

4. Mat actor leaving. Clearly had a big influence on end of season. Maybe they should have tried for immediate recast. Would have been jarring but maybe better?

[Gertrude]

OK, I'm stopping with the spoilers because I think we've done enough to warn people this is new show talk now.

I did watch the Sanderson live viewing and one of his comments I really liked was about Nyneave/Egwene. Let them channel in the battle, but make it so that they don't have a clue as to what they are doing and that motivates them (especially Nyneave) to train at the White Tower. Pretty much anything would have been better than Nyneave's thing. I did like Amalisa linking and not expecting what the hell she was now controlling - I think you could have woven both of those concepts together. When they were linking, I was fully expecting Nyneave to not be able to open herself up and then get mad enough at herself to do so. That would convince her that she needs training. I was also expecting Nyneave to straight up merk Amalisa to stop the link, and I would have rather seen that then a stupid call back to the braid and and her knowing how to break that link from Egwene.

I don't mind the horn being in Fal Dara at all. It has to be somewhere, and without the Green Man guarding it, it's much safer there than at the Eye. I can see the horn traveling from hiding place to hiding place, kind of like the One Ring moving from owner to owner, always moving towards its goal. I do mind it being left alone just because Uno and not Ingtar heard a scream. Everyone in that city would have died to keep that horn safe if they knew of it, so they had no excuse to drop it like it was nothing. And then get killed unceremoniously? At least we got a goat-kisser from Uno before he went. And Perrin's inaction? Hated it.

Showing the Ways and the Horn is not strictly fanservice IMO. The Ways makes Perrin's return possible and the horn indicates to me that Birgitte will be a part of this show. Otherwise I think it could be dropped without much consequence.

As for a Mat recast, I think that entirely depends on when Barney left the show. I would have also hated for them to rush the process and botch it. That will always be a big 'what if' hanging over the show.

I'm willing to overlook some of the production issues and hope that it is a combination of growing pains and Covid related. Rafe did say that the CGI was especially hard hit by covid issues. which surprised me, but I'll take his word for it.

 

[Corvinus85]

Forgot to mention on the Seanchan costumes that from the back the sul'dam look like Mass Effect Turians. 

The costume decisions in general have been baffling.

[Arakasi]

I do think for non book readers this will come over pretty well. You have some reasonable cliffhangers and it sets things up for fighting the Seanchan at Falme. And there were a few epic looking scenes and they did step things up a bit. That lightning shots against the army showed some promise.

[UnplayableChar]

We can tear the finale's writing apart, but what's the point at this stage? It's been a mess all season. I do think there are only three charismatic actors in the whole cast, and two of them are villains (Ishamael and Fain).

[karaddin]

Well consider me the outlier again, I thought there was a ton that was great here - especially the way Ishy completely played Rand. I like the change from the books resulting in it being an unconditional defeat for Rand, his only action breaks the first seal and sets the rest in motion meaning a clear win for Ishy/DO. However Ishy also teaches Rand the first part of how to consciously channel and sets his own eventual defeat in motion, winning the battle doesn't mean winning the war.

I also thought Moiraine was shielded with it tied off, not stilled, and took it as an indication that the current AS don't even know proper shielding - they do 3/4 of it but don't set it properly within the persons brain/soul which blocks them doing anything with the power but does not block them from touching it. This would have the obvious flaw of exactly what happened with Logain and Stepin. Sanderson seeing an earlier version of the script with it as stilling may indicate this is wrong, or simply that they changed their mind on where to take it.

No energy to argue with people that interpret every single thing in the worst possible light, so I'll bow out of the discussion and maybe you should consider dropping out of the show before the next season if it drives you crazy. As others have said, the books are still there and the show has made me want to read them again for the first time in years.