The Wheel of Time: The Wheel Weaves as Jeff Bezos Wills (Book Spoilers)

[Arakasi]

Yeah I agree Karradin. I’m bad at reading spoilers and I had family over and couldn’t watch til later so I looked for general thoughts and saw non spoiler negatives and was like oh my this is going to suck. Than my wife and I watched it and we were pleasantly surprised. Perhaps lowered expectation for me but she didn’t know anything and went in fresh. It’s probably not my favorite episode of the year but it’s up there with 7, 4 and 3.

[Gertrude]

You're not a complete outlier, I liked most of it - it was just those specific parts that I didn't like, Nyneave being the main one. I actually really liked what happened at the Eye and the indication that books 2 & 3 will be combined, which I thought they might do anyway.

And I had the same thoughts about shielding. Ishy has some AoL tricks up his sleeve.

[karaddin]

47 minutes ago, Gertrude said:

You're not a complete outlier, I liked most of it - it was just those specific parts that I didn't like, Nyneave being the main one. I actually really liked what happened at the Eye and the indication that books 2 & 3 will be combined, which I thought they might do anyway.

And I had the same thoughts about shielding. Ishy has some AoL tricks up his sleeve.

Did you interpret Nynaeve as being dead? Because that thought never occurred to me, and I understand being much more annoyed if that scene was meant to be healing death - primarily because I think Rand in the stone attempting to heal death is one of my favourite scenes in the books. Dying? Sure, but healing someone before they're dead is very different from afterwards.

I didn't love the Perrin/Fain stuff but I assume that's 50% losing Mat, 50% cutting the Green Man (which I wanted) so again I'm happy to roll with it. On the upside it gave us more screen time of Fades being a serious threat which I think is very much a good thing. I jumped when they first showed up killing the other guards outside, and really highlights the massive mobility advantage they give the dark at the moment. I'd have been genuinely upset is Loial were dead, not drop the show or rage but dislike it, so I'm happy to see him alive. Yes that reduces the danger of the dagger but there are many ways they can go with that including that it only becomes the threat it is later after its fully bonded with Fain.

On people asking why Amalisa set up behind the pass instead of defending it? She's an Accepted with a couple of women that look like they barely made novice (explicitly shown). She and Agelmar were both convinced they were dying today (explicitly stated), and she sets up in the place she can deal maximum damage while attempting to massively burn out without doing any damage to the castle and buying more time (interpretation based on the above and everything else they are doing). Its only upon linking with Egwene and Nynaeve that she realises how absurdly strong (explicitly shown with the weaves of the power and her reaction to each of them linking) they are and that she can actually stop the Trollocs. Its like they went out there with a laser pointer expecting to make the trollocs chase the dot for a couple of minutes, only to hook it up to a nuclear reactor and cut them all in half with it.

I think given the number of things that many people miss its probably a fair criticism that the show needs to make things more obvious, but explanations for an awful lot of things are there if you accept seeing them (not directed at you Gertrude)

[Gertrude]

I definitely thought she was dead, and if she wasn't, the show did not make that clear at all. And yes, that's my main problem with it.

And I agree that the Fain/Perrin stuff was probably a consequence of losing Mat, so I get it, I still don't like it. I can get over it, but it left a bad taste in my mouth.

And I agree with your assessment of Amalisa. There was no way she could have known how much power she would have at her disposal. She was expecting to be a speedbump at best.

[BigFatCoward]

Absolute pricks releasing the last episode on Christmas eve. I'm not watching it on my mams tiny little 32 inch TV. 

[Ran]

11 hours ago, Werthead said:

here is some debate here, though, since if you divide it by 180 (the first three episodes), it's only 6.5 million views, which is clearly less than The Boys' premiere,

And the Nielsen data says it's only the second highest premiere for Amazon since Hunters, as far as US data goes, though I suppose it's likely it WoT is bigger outside of the US than Hunters was.

Only thing I can think of is that they're using some very narrow sense of "biggest premiere" that's not immediately obvious. Like they're literally talking about the premiere episode, it drew 12 million viewers, and then lost half its viewership for the following episodes.

One of the weirder things about the show that I noticed is that the IMDB rating for episode 4 (with Logain) are the highest the show has... and then the total number of ratings drops by a third in the next episode and the show hasn't recovered. I guess this means episode 5 lost viewers?

Will be interesting to see where things stand next month.

As for the finale:

There's a lot of slipshod writing and effort that has gone into this, and there's been absolutely nothing to elevate it to something where despite the flaws I'd be willing to give it a chance. So it's the series finale for me.

It wasn't all terrible. I really quite liked Josha's performance as Rand and think now he can do well in the role if only they actually give him something of substance to do. I'm pleased to see two Swedish actors in such prominent roles, and though Fares's Ishamael is quite a different one from the time of EotW -- more like the Prologue version -- I liked his scenes as he tries to tempt Rand away. It was a reasonable approach to simplifying the confusion that is the book version of the last chapter (though I really think the Nym killing Balthamel would have been really awesome to see, but a big challenge.) 

Reasonable, some nice stuff, but not enough for me.

ETA: Re: Amalisa, she literally tells her brother that she refuses to let the city fall even after he insists that it's hopeless. I don't think she believed she could be a speed-bump but genuinely believed that if she had some others in a circle and was prepared to burn them out that they could wipe out the trollocs. Which she proceeded to do.

[karaddin]

Knowing you're going to die taking out a bunch of trollocs is perfectly compatible with thinking the city won't fall after you die - it just requires her thinking it would fall if she doesn't sacrifice herself. The conversation with Agelmar was not optimistic even when she insists that.

1 hour ago, Gertrude said:

I definitely thought she was dead, and if she wasn't, the show did not make that clear at all. And yes, that's my main problem with it.

There was some analysis in one of the threads on reddit about how those that insta-died all had their eyes fully burnt out, her face was burned but her eyes were still intact so I'm sticking with assuming we weren't meant to think she was already dead but yeah - clearly plenty of people parsed it the same as you.

On another one - not sure if people are assuming Agelmar is also dead, but I'm not. He specifically said he needed his own armour and then gets hit in a spot the armour may have helped save his life and we don't see anymore.

[IFR]

6 hours ago, Gertrude said:

I don't mind the horn being in Fal Dara at all. It has to be somewhere, and without the Green Man guarding it, it's much safer there than at the Eye.

I don't know about that. The crazy magic in the books keeps it safe from Shadowspawn and Dark Friends getting to it.

Hidden for 3000 years in Shienar is a bit less credible. So no ruler in all this time tried to blow it? No one gave into temptation to take command of the ultimate power? Not even during the times of the Trolloc Wars (was there even a Trolloc Wars in this version of the Wheel of Time)? And in all this time the secret of its location was kept absolutely secure? We're even immediately shown that Shinearans have completely incompetent clowns ruling it. Algemar behaved in a consistently idiotic way. If people like him ruled, it seems a bit hard to believe the Horn was kept secret and safe.

5 hours ago, UnplayableChar said:

We can tear the finale's writing apart, but what's the point at this stage? It's been a mess all season. I do think there are only three charismatic actors in the whole cast, and two of them are villains (Ishamael and Fain).

Yes, the writers made it far too easy to poke holes in what they produced. I personally am having some fun mocking the ridiculousness of it all for now. It's somewhat of a cathartic release from the disappointment of the show itself. It's too bad Rafe Judkins assembled a team of such deficient writers. Dave Hill, the Game of Thrones legacy, seems to be the only competent one among the lot. But really, Judkins' episodes (1 and 8) have by far been the worst.

I expect in a few days I'll put Wheel of Time behind me and move on. I believe the story Jordan wrote could have been something good, but it ended up with writers who had a fundamentally different interpretation of Jordan's works than I did. So it goes. There are dozens and dozens of shows out there that are far better than this.

5 hours ago, karaddin said:

No energy to argue with people that interpret every single thing in the worst possible light, so I'll bow out of the discussion

I think that's advisable if it's actually inervating you to discuss this show with those who have a different opinion than your own. And because you personally have noted that you misinterpret the tone of my posts, let me be plain: I'm not saying this to be mean.

I don't get stressed in these discussions. I'm usually enjoying myself quite a bit. I don't feel any obligation to "win" a discussion or convince the other person they are wrong and I am right. I give my opinion and comment on the opinion of others to the extent that it gives me enjoyment and no more.

Why waste your time stressing yourself out? This is your leisure time. You should be enjoying it!

2 hours ago, Ran said:

It wasn't all terrible. I really quite liked Josha's performance as Rand and think now he can do well in the role if only they actually give him something of substance to do. I'm pleased to see two Swedish actors in such prominent roles, and though Fares's Ishamael is quite a different one from the time of EotW -- more like the Prologue version -- I liked his scenes as he tries to tempt Rand away. It was a reasonable approach to simplifying the confusion that is the book version of the last chapter (though I really think the Nym killing Balthamel would have been really awesome to see, but a big challenge.) 

I agree that Josha was well cast as Rand. As you say, he would be amazing if given any real material to work with.

I have mixed feelings about his interaction with Ishamael. I thought the book version of early Ishamael was hammy, and could easily be improved. Yes, he was insane but insanity doesn't mean you have to be a total clown.

I liked the less exaggerated version of Ishamael and his attempt to tempt Rand. I didn't like that he let Moiraine live for whatever reason. Why would he do that? Rand was being tempted in his vision, and would be unaware. It seemed pointless to let her live while she was blustering about ending Rand's life if he gave into temptation.

I also didn't like that they have basically reduced Rand's personality to being an Egwene drone. All of his decisions revolve around her. He has no personality of his own.

In the books she was important to him, and he wanted to protect her (and all of his companions). But she wasn't the single guiding light in all of his choices. Which seems to be the case in the show.

They took away Rand's agency. They did the same with Lan, too, really. And Perrin. And in a different way, Mat.

Not a fan, personally.

[UnplayableChar]

Characters teleporting around, doing things simply so the writers can checkmark them, characters who were supposed to be smart acting stupid, nonsensical events happening simply because the writers needed to wrap things up, instead of the character built up as the prophesied one defeating the armies of the dark, his journey is subverted by giving that task to another character, and is generally characterized as a bland sulky character.
But enough about season 8, how would you summarize your feelings about season 1 of Wheel of Time?

[IFR]

7 minutes ago, UnplayableChar said:

Characters teleporting around, doing things simply so the writers can checkmark them, characters who were supposed to be smart acting stupid, nonsensical events happening simply because the writers needed to wrap things up, instead of the character built up as the prophesied one defeating the armies of the dark, his journey is subverted by giving that task to another character, and is generally characterized as a bland sulky character.
But enough about season 8, how would you summarize your feelings about season 1 of Wheel of Time?

 That is my one line description of this show. Season 8 of Game of Thrones, but with bad special effects.

As a side note, the show is plummeting on imdb ratings. I expect that by the time season 2 hits it will be in the mid to low 6's. The last episode I'm guessing will be roughly the same rating as the last episode of GoT.

[Werthead]

Some good, some bad, some wtf there. Zoe Robins, Daniel Henney and Rosamund Pike continue to be the MVP actors, and Josha Stradowski has really levelled up over the season. Madeleine Madden does really well when she has good material, but the last couple of episodes she had FA to do. I still feel that fridging Perrin's wife in the first episode gave him effective PTSD and effectively zombified his character development: I can't tell if Marcus Rutherford is a good actor or not because he's not been given anything to do. It's also weird to show Harris as Mat in the Season 1 finale if they wanted to put some clear air before the new actor shows up.

It's clear Moiraine is not stilled: Lan didn't freak out and Moiraine is still bound by the Three Oaths. My guess is that Ishamael tied off the shield and it's now going to be an episode or two before Moiraine or Nynaeve or Egwene work out how to unpick the tie.

The imposing power of the Seanchan was impressive, why they were nuking an isolated beach seemed unclear. I am concerned this version of the Seanchan will be straight-up evil and their "popular" qualities (bringing order, keeping their laws, respecting those who respect them etc) will be dropped in favour of having them as black hats. Still, the ship design was cool.

Loial was still breathing and I'm assuming Uno will turn out to have been lightly injured, with only the redshirts and Yakota dead (he's off to make Willow). The actor playing Padan Fain really turned it up a notch and became a much more interesting villain.

I don't think Nynaeve was killed, she was quite badly injured but Egwene was able to Heal her. Seeing the power wrap around Nynaeve as well, I'm wondering if Egwene was able to draw on Nynaeve's Power to Heal her through linking, which I'm not sure was ever done in the books or even possible (the "not being able to Heal yourself" rule seems to have a few edge cases where what happens is unclear).

Killing Agelmar instantly seems a waste, even if this one was clearly not the strategic mastermind of the books. Why place your general on the front line fighting amongst his men? I do get that Agelmar did not think they had enough channellers to play a role in the battle, which is why they weren't at the wall. If they had been, they'd have won and been home in time for dinner with only two redshirt channeller casualties and Amalisa, plus a lightly singed Nynaeve. The idea that the Trollocs have never tested Tarwin's Gap with more than 5-10,000 Trollocs seems implausible though.

Everyone thinking Ishamael is the Dark One is a good replacement for the Ba'alzamon thing, which would have been cheesy as fuck if they'd followed it through. Ishamael pulling off a Xanatos Gambit was quite good, his shit-eating grin as he was "defeated" was amusing. I'm assuming Moiraine at least suspects that it was one of the Forsaken, not the Dark One itself, but is unsure. The Eye of the World also appears to be the site of one of the Seven Seals alone, not the actual Dark One's prison (I'm wondering if they dropped Shayol Ghul because having two important volcanoes is redundant, or too LotR, or Shayol Ghul is still around). Also using one of Egwene's Accepted test for Rand's hallucination is a good move.

The Age of Legends depiction was reasonable (aircraft, vehicles, roads and a sports stadium, but also a bit of a Naboo Star Wars future-elegant thing) but you could feel the CG budget creaking. The perspective seemed off. However, if you compare to the opening shots of Episode 1, you can see it's the same place (Paaran Disen?), which was entertaining. Horizon Zero Dawn vibes there.

[Ran]

38 minutes ago, IFR said:

I didn't like that he let Moiraine live for whatever reason.

Yeah. And what was that about Min saying that her visions always come true? Moiraine is very much alive... (I guess the "out" is that she will ultimately "die", but surely that goes for every person living? Death comes for them all eventually..)

39 minutes ago, IFR said:

I also didn't like that they have basically reduced Rand's personality to being an Egwene drone. All of his decisions revolve around her. He has no personality of his own.

This is a real problem with the show, indeed. If Judkins hadn't said otherwise, I would have assumed that Egwene is by far his favorite character and that's why the show has been written as it is. 

I generally agree that character agency seems to have been put on hold for a number of them. Lan subordinates himself to Moiraine, Perrin, Rand, and even Nynaeve subordinate themselves to Egwene. It's awkward and strange. We even have the whole thing where Rand realizes that Moiraine had put all of her eggs in the "Egwene is the Dragon" basket. So much more of the story revolves around Egwene than it does Rand, in fact, up to this final episode. It's off-putting just because the show feels all askew in terms of character development. 

I don't think the writing team is up to the challenge of making more than a mediocre television show, alas.

[Scott_N]

6 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

Forgot to mention on the Seanchan costumes that from the back the sul'dam look like Mass Effect Turians. 

The costume decisions in general have been baffling.

Not as laughable as their studded ships or their decision to tsunami an empty beach.

[Scott_N]

I should probably rewatch this episode because it felt like a lot of things happening because the show required them to happen. A bit of a mess. Or possibly me not being quick enough on the uptake.

Anyway, with the first season wrapped up:

Moiraine, Lan, Nynaeve and Rand are all characters I'd like to see more of. Not so Egwene and definitely not Perrin. I would like them to instill some sense of scale to the show and improve the production (lighting!) values and get someone to sort out the costume desing.

Lastly, a show starring Lews Therin and Ishamael... now that is a show I want to watch. Only Moiraine brings comparable charisma.

[Ran]

There's even little things... why did Latra call him the Dragon Reborn? Lews Therin Telamon is the Dragon. The Dragon Reborn is his reincarnation!

And why is Latra the Tamyrlin Seat? I can get why they make a title of it (since in the AoL the leader of the Aes Sedai wore the ring of Tamyrlin) to make it clear that it connects to Amyrlin Seat... but it's LTT who wore the ring and was the leader of the Aes Sedai at the end of the AoL. I don't get why they would change this.

 

[Werthead]

Lews Therin is also the reincarnation of the Dragon Reborn, so Lews Therin in the next Second Age post-Last Battle would also be the Dragon Reborn, Reborn I always thought it interesting if during one turning of the Wheel, Lews Therin could get visions/distant echoes of being Rand, just as Rand got of him, but that's an idea the books never delved into.

But it was odd that they used the term "the Dragon" almost exclusively for the Dragon Reborn most of the season, then started using the "Dragon Reborn," and then applied "the Dragon Reborn" to the wrong person. Pick a lane.

Also, the War of the Shadow was closer to 3,500 years before the present, not 3,000, but that's maybe getting too picky, and everything seems to have happened "a thousand years ago" when it clearly didn't.

[jurble]

17 minutes ago, Ran said:

There's even little things... why did Latra call him the Dragon Reborn? Lews Therin Telamon is the Dragon. The Dragon Reborn is his reincarnation!

My assumption is that they think the audience is too stupid to realize the Dragon and Dragon Reborn are the same person.  But there's been cycles so it's not technically wrong?  But my impression is that the Age of Legends folk were completely unaware of the repeated cycles and the Dragon's significance... elsewise they *would've* called him the Dragon Reborn, but they didn't.  They were unaware the Dark One existed, I believe, until the Bore was drilled.

Quote

And why is Latra the Tamyrlin Seat? I can get why they make a title of it (since in the AoL the leader of the Aes Sedai wore the ring of Tamyrlin) to make it clear that it connects to Amyrlin Seat... but it's LTT who wore the ring and was the leader of the Aes Sedai at the end of the AoL. I don't get why they would change this.

They also made Latra 100% correct about the consequences of Lews Therin's actions and made him seem reckless, despite the fact in the books, it was a move of desperation, the Choedan Kal were stuck in occupied territory and it wasn't certain that they could retake them in order to enact Latra's preferred plan. 

But splitting the Dragon and the Tamyrlin does, presumably, split the military and political roles of the Aes Sedai between Lews and Latra and give the female Aes Sedai equal footing with their male counterparts?  In which case the change was ideological on the part of the writers' room, since it has no ultimate bearing on the story that I can think of in modern times, except perhaps to justify Egwene's-as-Amyrlin's independence in the face of Rand, which might be reasonable.  Rand-with-memories in the show might be depicted as being more obviously reckless or wrong.

[UnplayableChar]

23 minutes ago, Werthead said:

Lews Therin is also the reincarnation of the Dragon Reborn, so Lews Therin in the next Second Age post-Last Battle would also be the Dragon Reborn, Reborn

Do you have a source on that? It was my understanding that the "Dragon" was his personal nickname, and that it was used as a shorthand for the champion of the light in the books, I can't imagine the name having any real significance to the pattern, and he was known this way even before anyone in the Age of Legends even knew the Dark One existed, no?

[Corvinus85]

Not sure why Rand would see Lews Therin from an outside perspective. Too hard to make a first view perspective and have Rand look through Lews's eyes?

[fionwe1987]

I Reddit spoilered myself into not watching the episode (yet). Saw some negative reactions and figured the spoilers would help reduce my expectations, and succeeded wildly.

From all this, I think they should have dropped the whole "we're trying to be as faithful to the books as possible" crap, and honestly said they saw no way to faithfully adapt the books, and so are taking inspiration from the series for the main characters and setting, but going their own way to get a workable 8 season series. 

And then they should have hired competant writers to actually do that.