The Wheel of Time: The Wheel Weaves as Jeff Bezos Wills (Book Spoilers)

[UnplayableChar]

21 minutes ago, Gertrude said:

If it was a post of mine, I only meant to say that she's had as much training as she can get, which is considerable since she just fell short of Aes Sedai. She's on good terms with the Tower, so I doubt she was put out for shirking her training. She got it, she just didn't get the last bits a full sister would. So yes, I see it near full formal training.

I do agree that the power scale was cranked up to a problematic degree. I disliked the Nyneave heal bomb, I disliked Nyneave holding off Machin Shin, and I disliked the power level of this. It just makes it look effortless and sky's the limit for Nyneave and that doesn't really sit well with me. Sure, show us glimpses of her potential, but Lan bleeding out and looking pretty gone and then unleashing a heal powerful enough to heal everyone on the ground was a lot.

I disagree that Rand should have destroyed the armies - that would have been so confusing to have him appear, kill off trollocs, then disappear into the wilds again. And I do like that he just runs off - it's setting up the condensing we all know needs to happen. I would perhaps have made the trolloc army not as big and apocalyptic as it was, so that the win didn't seem so miraculous. Like I said, everything just looks effortless for Nyneave, I would have loved seeing her block come into play before she gets mad enough to reach it. Give Fal Dara a narrow victory, but give them the win.

I think it’s necessary. 
For starters, it’s considered a good practice in storytelling to have your main characters resolve the main conflict. 
Second, Rand didn’t really have a moment this season. Nynaeve did an AOE heal, Egwene defeated a White Cloak serial killer, Rand broke down a door and pushed a Trolloc in the Ways. We kept being TOLD how important the Dragon was, this was the opportunity to SHOW us. What we’ve been shown is the Dragon being a dope and letting the “Dark One” out. After the prologue showing us the Dragon being a dope and tainting Saidin. If the show’s purpose is to show us the Dragon is a dangerous imbecile then it’s a resounding success, but I’m not sure why we’re supposed to be interested in him from this point on.
Third, if he doesn’t defeat the Trolloc army, what was the point of him traveling to the Eye? What was resolved by it? It’s just him and Moiraine going there for no reason, achieving nothing, except breaking out the “Dark One”. So what are we left with from our main characters in the finale? Egwene and Nynaeve being used as batteries, Moiraine and Rand being idiots, Perrin helping with some physical labor and backing down from a confrontation with someone who shanked his friend, Loial getting shanked, Lan tracking Moiraine, avoiding all the fighting. This is an immense failure of storytelling.

Hell, if they HAD to have Amalisa solve the biggest threat for some reason (and honest to God I don't understand why), having her cause an avalanche to seal the gap would make much more sense (would explain why she's not on the walls for starters),  and wouldn't break the series' power scaling.

[karaddin]

I think them doing this improves power scaling instead of hurts it. Its far more consistent with what is done later in the storm which makes for a smoother ceiling on power instead of being inexplicably nerfed in the early story. Amalisa needed to know how to do 3 things - start/lead the circle, generate the shockwave and generate the lightning storm. I don't actually think an Accepted who got put out would have been taught how to lead a circle, but she would have been trained in joining one - even novices can do that - and I think she figured out the first part on her own from there, but did not know how to terminate it. Flying a plane isn't the same as landing one.

As for shockwaves and lightning storms? She's from the ruling house of a borderland nation, combat weaves are going to be the primary thing she cares about.

Sufficient power from Egwene and Nynaeve (who both appear to be increased compared to their already very strong book versions) absolutely justifies taking out a significant number of trollocs. Its also not the whole 5-20k, plenty of them died getting through the first fortification. Rand is doing this solo by mid way through the books and linking was always stated to be a massive force multiplier.

As for our new poster, someone that creates a new account on a message board just to post unrelentingly negative posts about a new show sure seems like they're watching it with an open mind. You have interpreted every single scene in the absolute worst light possible. 

[IFR]

3 hours ago, karaddin said:

As for our new poster, someone that creates a new account on a message board just to post unrelentingly negative posts about a new show sure seems like they're watching it with an open mind. You have interpreted every single scene in the absolute worst light possible. 

I don't know if this was intentional, and I apologize for the presumption if I misunderstood you, but to me this seems like you are implying that UnplayableChar is an alt of mine, who you previously noted was unrelentingly negative about the show and viewed everything in the worst possible light.

Let me assure you that is not the case. Also, I believe the admin and mods can see user IP addresses, so they would call someone out who was trying that.

I am absolutely enjoying and agreeing with both UnplayableChar and Ran's comments, but I'm finished discussing aspects of the show itself.

UnplayableChar is making very perceptive criticisms that are theirs, and I wouldn't want any suspicion that they are an alt to take away from that.

If I misunderstood your post, I apologize.

Please continue, UnplayableChar! I love your comments.

[UnplayableChar]

3 hours ago, karaddin said:

As for our new poster, someone that creates a new account on a message board just to post unrelentingly negative posts about a new show sure seems like they're watching it with an open mind. You have interpreted every single scene in the absolute worst light possible. 

I'm not THAT new, I used to hang around these parts back when the board was black, in the days of EHK, Kalbear, OsRaven, Stego, etc. I have watched it with an open mind, but we're finished with the finale now, there's only so long you can keep your mind open when the writing has failed at really basic things. Just to make it very clear, just because I find the writing subpar doesn't mean this isn't a space for you to enjoy the show, or that positive thoughts are at all unwelcome, I just geniunely think the writing is the most notable part of the show.

[karaddin]

36 minutes ago, IFR said:

I don't know if this was intentional, and I apologize for the presumption if I misunderstood you, but to me this seems like you are implying that UnplayableChar is an alt of mine, who you previously noted was unrelentingly negative about the show and viewed everything in the worst possible light.

If I misunderstood your post, I apologize.

I was not suggesting they were an alt of yours or of anyone's, just that I can't imagine bothering to create an account just to criticize anything. But I also wouldn't have finished the season if I hadn't enjoyed it so you all have a pretty different mindset to me on this.

The only reason I commented on that front was just with respect to a comment on the last page about not giving the show a chance at a reasonable interpretation, that when you're already convinced you'll see flaws then that's what you'll see. You're right that I'd definitely characterize my impression of your outlook (at least by the latter half of the season) in this same way and indeed have done so, but did not intend to suggest that made you the same person.

UC - as above my comment was meant to be with respect to whether you're giving it a fair chance or not, because creating an account just to criticize seemed odd if you were really being open minded. Not sure if you've noticed, as I only did from seeing your posts, but your Avatar picture section has a badge on it indicating it's a new account so it kinda stuck out. Someone from way back wanting to get involved on here again for this series in particular makes plenty of sense and is completely different to what I was picturing. 

[Werthead]

I note that Paaran Disen - assuming it is that city - has a wall around it, which is intriguing. In the pre-war Age of Legends, a wall would be completely unnecessary, and during the war having a wall would be of limited utility against enemies who can fly or use the One Power to move troops en masse. However, having a wall is definitely necessary if the enemy's main footsoldiers are Trollocs: they can't be moved with the Power, are too bestial to use aircraft and prefer head-on assaults. Perhaps a subtle clue the war is going on.

[Ran]

It looks like a dam to me, not a wall. Hence the waterfall exiting from it and feeding the river, and the broad body of water that can be seen beyond it.

[Werthead]

40 minutes ago, Ran said:

It looks like a dam to me, not a wall. Hence the waterfall exiting from it and feeding the river, and the broad body of water that can be seen beyond it.

The wall is not present in the Third Age, so if it was a dam, the city would have been inundated with water and swept away. Instead, the river is identical in size and course in both images.

The lake does appear to have disappeared, although the camera angle in the "modern" image is lower, so it may just be no longer visible.

[Scott_N]

7 hours ago, Arakasi said:

It’s a shame I think because imo 2/3 of that episode was great. Rand and Ishy were great and I really liked Fain. It’s just they couldn’t pull off that battle.

I think you are right. It's the battle scenes and the fact none of them make any sense that really has me bothered. The other stuff I can kind of live with (except for Moiraine's "tell").

This is also symptomatic of the show as a whole. Much of it *does* work but the the writers keep letting themselves down for no good reason. I just don't understand it. We are left with a show that, in my mind, is OK-ish (good enough for me to watch season 2) but that, with frankly very little work, could have been really quite good.

[Ran]

24 minutes ago, Werthead said:

The wall is not present in the Third Age, so if it was a dam, the city would have been inundated with water and swept away. Instead, the river is identical in size and course in both images.

It actually is not identical in course. It's much more meandering these days. And the large body of water appears gone. I'd take it that the dam shattered, the reservoir broke, things got flooded (but they're made of One Power-manipulated stone and the like), and what you see is what's left.

Or at least that's my view, given that I believe  the show's CG has generally been pretty meh and not necessarily well-designed or considered up to this point, so I'm unlikely to give them the benefit of the doubt that they meant to actually convey it was a wall.

Perhaps there'll be something to back up that it's a wall, but the association with water and what looks like a body of water that sits above the city on the opposite side has presently convinced me that it's a dam.

 

[Corvinus85]

30 minutes ago, Werthead said:

The wall is not present in the Third Age, so if it was a dam, the city would have been inundated with water and swept away. Instead, the river is identical in size and course in both images.

The lake does appear to have disappeared, although the camera angle in the "modern" image is lower, so it may just be no longer visible.

Or the river is nearly dry because of how awful the Breaking was.

[David Selig]

Really disappointing final episode. IMO the ending of EOTW is a mess for the most part yet instead of improving on one of the weakest parts in the books the show managed to somehow be much worse. The writing was a mess, and the directing and editing weren't much better.

The whole show is so bland and lacking in anything resembling an unique vision that it really seems the showrunner is over his head and there is too much interference from the Amazon execs. It has all the signs of a show with too many cooks in the kitchen and nobody with the authority and leadership to enforce a uniform vision.

[jurble]

Question:  Does Rand do any super-sayain stuff between the end of EotW and performing a mini-'Breaking' while fighting Asmodean at Rhuidean?  I can't recall. 

[Cas Stark]

I really hate to say this, since I ranted about GOT for at least the last 3-4 seasons, but they could take a lesson from GOT on creating good character moments, and hiring great actors for small roles that makes them memorable  They should also probably hire any or all of the GOT directors because the directing and editing for this show, especially given its massive budget, is seriously lacking. 

[Corvinus85]

1 hour ago, jurble said:

Question:  Does Rand do any super-sayain stuff between the end of EotW and performing a mini-'Breaking' while fighting Asmodean at Rhuidean?  I can't recall. 

At the start of book 4 he uses Callandor to kill every Trolloc in the Stone.

[Darryk]

13 hours ago, Starkess said:

Judkins did say that Egwene is his favorite character. (Well, he said she has his favorite character arc, listed her among his favorites when he said he couldn't pick one, and said "I'm obsessed with Egwene. I think, of all the characters, she faces some of the most dramatic/impossible choices in the series. And to me, characters you fall in love with are the ones who have to face these choices and come out stronger on the other side. She is going to rock")

Well, that explains a lot, and doesn't bode well for my own personal enjoyment of the series, as Egwene annoyed the hell out of me in the books  Rafe Judkins will probably end up giving a lot of Rand's dramatic moments to Egwene then, which may not work for me but will probably please a lot of other audience members, so from his view he's making the smart choice.

12 hours ago, felice said:

Except nobody knows about the Dragon Reborn yet in the aftermath of the first book - his return doesn't become general public knowledge till much later. So keeping him out of Tarwin's Gap is a definite improvement over the books in that respect.

Well at this rate I'm wondering if we're gonna get ANY of the dramatic moments that announce the Dragon's rebirth, like the people witnessing Rand fighting Ishamael at the end of the Great Hunt for example. The show will probably have Egwene fight Ishamael instead while Rand goes off and mopes somewhere. 

Sheesh, this show is making me bitter 

[Darryk]

1 hour ago, Cas Stark said:

I really hate to say this, since I ranted about GOT for at least the last 3-4 seasons, but they could take a lesson from GOT on creating good character moments, and hiring great actors for small roles that makes them memorable  They should also probably hire any or all of the GOT directors because the directing and editing for this show, especially given its massive budget, is seriously lacking. 

No doubt, Amazon are being seriously shown up by HBO here.

[Lord Varys]

15 hours ago, Ran said:

Judkins says in an interview, oh Rand does everything at the end, the seal, Tarwin's Gap, the Horn, etc., so we spread things out to other characters. You know how they could have given Nyn and Egwene something to do? Have them at the Tarwin's Gap fortress! Have them doing cool OP stuff to try to defend the fortress with the soldiers, but they're simply not strong enough. Have Agelmar and his men sacrifice themselves as the fortress is falling to cover the escape of the channelers so they can fall back to the city to defend it from there with the women.  Have them and the last surviving Shienaran soldiers cut off (those loping trollocs must be faster than people!) and trapped  outside of the city and making their own desperate last stand -- and *bam* Rand appears out of nowhere and his power is so great and terrible that he destroys the trollocs, kills most of the Shienarans by mistake as well, and oh, the remains of the Tarwin's Gap fortress get wasted too, and Tarwin's Gap itself as the cliffs shatter (admittedly, this would have been cooler if Liandrin didn't do a version of this in the first episode).

Maybe it's all just "We didn't have the budget for it," but to a large degree this was just a poor choice of trying to be clever and trying to shape a novel that is 3/4ths about Rand into a pure ensemble piece. It doesn't work this early. It undercuts the Dragon Reborn entirely to have this strange and mysterious talky interlude in the Blight when everything that says real and meaningful, visceral stakes is somewhere else, and you're explicitly telling your viewers that there's a connection between the two when there in fact isn't.

While I definitely agree that the fighting stuff at Tarwin's Gap didn't look good and wasn't all that well-acted, I'd definitely say that the last stand of the women outside the city - which was just that, a last stand to slow the Shadowspawn down who would, in the mind of the folks involved, all win - makes sense from a narrative perspective.

The idea to have Rand in any way in the way Jordan used him in the book makes little sense. For one, because of the retcon in the second book ... but also because this makes the character far too powerful too early in the story. Jordan has Rand in 'god mode' far too often in any of the finales while he mostly sucks throughout the books. That doesn't really fly well, especially not when depicted visually.

The way they have Rand pretend he is dead allows him to go on a journey and then have his really powerful revelation event with Callandor and/or when fighting the Seanchan (depending how they are going to adapt this). It also gives the writers time to postpone the coup of the Reds until it becomes evident what Siuan and Moiraine are doing ... something that is also barely believable in the books.

And once he has the sword and/or is seen as a vision in the sky the news about that will spread far and wide very quickly, unlike in the books where Alanna seriously has no clue that Rand is the Dragon Reborn as late the middle of TSR.

Other stuff:

I really like that folks actually seem to know pretty much nothing about the Dark One and the Forsaken or the Age of Legends in the show. That has the potential to make Verin an actually useful character who does research and uncovers stuff. Hell, if they are smart and keep Mat's knowledge of old stuff they could even have them decipher scrolls nobody could understand since, say, the Trolloc Wars.

In the books the people actually know far too much far too early in the story ... yet they don't use that information to accomplish anything. Don't even share it.

If show Rand were to encounter 'Selene' on his journey in season 2 he would have *no reason* whatsoever to suspect she might be the evil and very powerful Forsaken Lanfear. Unlike in the books, where there is a prophecy about Lanfear before Rand starts to pursue Fain and the Horn.

[felice]

9 hours ago, UnplayableChar said:

Third, if he doesn’t defeat the Trolloc army, what was the point of him traveling to the Eye? What was resolved by it? It’s just him and Moiraine going there for no reason, achieving nothing, except breaking out the “Dark One”.

They had a reason to go there, but it turned out to be a trap rather than a real opportunity; seems like a decent first season climax twist to me. It explains MIn's "the Amyrlin will be your downfall" vision - the information Siuan gave her turned out to be wrong, or at least misleading, and results in Moiraine losing her ability to channel.

[jurble]

1 hour ago, Corvinus85 said:

At the start of book 4 he uses Callandor to kill every Trolloc in the Stone.

Ah, he shoots lightning that arcs from every trolloc to every trolloc, right?  Then he tries to rez the dead girl?

 

Well, in any case, my thought was that, since they cut the super-sayain moment from EotW, unless they add a show original at some point, the audience is going to be oblivious to Rand's power-level and therefore, the danger, he represents to the world, especially as he starts going mad.  But, if they are moving the Aiel Waste up in the timeline as some people expect, we might get the duel at Rhiudean next season, but presumably as a season finale.