The Wheel of Time: The Wheel Weaves as Jeff Bezos Wills (Book Spoilers)

[Jace, Extat]

3 hours ago, jurble said:

Question:  Does Rand do any super-sayain stuff between the end of EotW and performing a mini-'Breaking' while fighting Asmodean at Rhuidean?  I can't recall. 

At Falme he has a duel with Ishy while flying above a battle between evil paladins and evil Imperialists. At Tear he uses calendor to create a targeted lightning storm that kills all the shadowspawn in the fortress by traveling along the ceiling.

And Rand's reticence against using saidin all the time is explained pretty well if you know what words separated by punctuation mean. 

1) The taint makes him ill and he knows using magic will make him go mad.

2) He doesn't know what he's doing and is afraid of hurting his allies.

3) His mega-power actions are done with supplementary magical reservoirs/artifacts, he almost never knows how to control or reproduce the mega-power effects, and he's literally afraid of his own power before he gets said supplementary abilities.

It's not like fear of destiny and the power that comes with it is like Rand's entire character for six books or anything, so I can understand how you end up smacking your face into a wall repeating "moar calandor!, MOAR CALANDOR!". 

I mean, if the character had a phase where he started using his most powerful magical abilities without regard for the damage he can do to the fabric of reality itself and the people trying to help him maybe it would be a better series. 

[SpaceChampion]

Screen time for each character:

 

[IlyaP]

14 hours ago, Ran said:

The entire conceptualization of how to adapt this series from the books has simply been misbegotten.

ETA: And yes, the cinematography and editing of this final episode was especially painful. I still don't understand why they thought a Michael Bay-esque 360 spin around the Eye was a great idea.

THE MOMENT the camera started doing the Bay thing, I honestly started hearing the theme from The Rock in my head. And now I am sorely tempted to make a goofy fan edit...

[SpaceChampion]

I think those skull-faced soldiers on the Seanchan ship might be Deathwatch Guards, implying there are the Blood on board.  The damane would likely be the most obedient damane around, so have special privileges of going without that chain that connects that gorget-like collar to the sul'dam.

[IlyaP]

I couldn't help myself, I really really couldn't. @Ran, I'm so, so sorry  - I've ruined WoT even more. I give you: The Bay of Time. (It's quick and dirty, using VSDC Video Editor, mainly to show just how comical and Bayhemish it all feels.)

[Lord Varys]

4 hours ago, Babblebauble said:

At Falme he has a duel with Ishy while flying above a battle between evil paladins and evil Imperialists. At Tear he uses calendor to create a targeted lightning storm that kills all the shadowspawn in the fortress by traveling along the ceiling.

He also uses Callandor to fight Ishamael at the end of TDR, laying waste to the Stone of Tear version in the Dream World.

I must say the scene where he turns Callandor literally into Excalibur by putting it into stone and daunting people to pull it out is one of those scenes where you just ask yourself 'Why?'

4 hours ago, Babblebauble said:

And Rand's reticence against using saidin all the time is explained pretty well if you know what words separated by punctuation mean. 

1) The taint makes him ill and he knows using magic will make him go mad.

2) He doesn't know what he's doing and is afraid of hurting his allies.

3) His mega-power actions are done with supplementary magical reservoirs/artifacts, he almost never knows how to control or reproduce the mega-power effects, and he's literally afraid of his own power before he gets said supplementary abilities.

It's not like fear of destiny and the power that comes with it is like Rand's entire character for six books or anything, so I can understand how you end up smacking your face into a wall repeating "moar calandor!, MOAR CALANDOR!". 

I mean, if the character had a phase where he started using his most powerful magical abilities without regard for the damage he can do to the fabric of reality itself and the people trying to help him maybe it would be a better series. 

Doesn't change the fact that books 1-4 have all the same finale. And I think book 5 as well, no? That's the one where Rahvin bites the dust, no?

Rand somehow saves the day by using his special powers (in book 2 Mat also does something with the Horn ... but then Rand has to bad ass superhero moments there - first by defeating Turak (who should have butchered him in two seconds) and then by defeating Ishamael yet again).

The fact that this supposedly taints him somehow - something that is not visible at all as late as book 4 (book 3 has a kind of mad Rand but Jordan clearly doubles back on that) - doesn't change that it is very unimaginative to repeat the same stick over and over again - sometimes with the very same incompetent villain, sometimes with a stand-in for him having a different name. Be'lal, for instance, does appear so briefly that he is effectively no character.

The show could never even try to do that ... and expect the audience to swallow that. Also, if you put the hero into decent enough danger at other points in the prior to the finale then you would expect 'god mode' Rand to pop up then and there, too. Whatever does that to him doesn't *really know* when the book finale has arrived, so smaller dangers to his life should cause him to explode, too.

The show should have one mad Rand moment where he is completely unstoppable ... and then they should never again use that kind of thing until the great finale.

[jurble]

4 hours ago, Babblebauble said:

At Falme he has a duel with Ishy while flying above a battle between evil paladins and evil Imperialists. At Tear he uses calendor to create a targeted lightning storm that kills all the shadowspawn in the fortress by traveling along the ceiling.

And Rand's reticence against using saidin all the time is explained pretty well if you know what words separated by punctuation mean. 

1) The taint makes him ill and he knows using magic will make him go mad.

2) He doesn't know what he's doing and is afraid of hurting his allies.

3) His mega-power actions are done with supplementary magical reservoirs/artifacts, he almost never knows how to control or reproduce the mega-power effects, and he's literally afraid of his own power before he gets said supplementary abilities.

It's not like fear of destiny and the power that comes with it is like Rand's entire character for six books or anything, so I can understand how you end up smacking your face into a wall repeating "moar calandor!, MOAR CALANDOR!". 

I mean, if the character had a phase where he started using his most powerful magical abilities without regard for the damage he can do to the fabric of reality itself and the people trying to help him maybe it would be a better series. 

I think you misunderstood the thrust of my question - I wasn't criticizing Rand's lack of super-saiyan (super-saidin?) moments, but was trying to assess if the television-only audience will get to see Rand do anything astonishing before Rhuidean given the deletion his role in the EoTW trolloc-army-nuke and the gravity of the danger 'the dragon reborn', especially if he goes mad, represents. 

 

The duel against Ishy in the sky would be next up on the list in the show, but I don't think that will be as awe-inspiring as what should have done in EotW.  But if some speculate that he's going right to the Aiel Waste, then Rhuidan in the second season should suffice in demonstrating his power level.  Unless they decide to nerf him in general, which wouldn't surprise me. 

[Jace, Extat]

Dawg, the High Lord Turak calls himself a blade master but nobody he's ever trained with is allowed to strike him (drawing the blood of one of The Blood is so out of bounds that not even the Empress can execute other nobles with a blade, Turak tells you this himself). 

That scene is supposed to depict that the rustic farm boy who has had the sword for less than a year is better than the guy who literally cannot be struck in training because he's a more down to earth and, most importantly, willing to accept that Turak might kill him but is still willing to press the attack anyway. Because Rand is willing to die to help his friends, while Turak is not willing to be scratched in order to gain his heron mark. 

That's what the scene is about. Not the literal description of the combat and the presupposition that Turak, coming from more privilege and a more advanced society, is inherently the better sword fighter. 

Can you even read, brah?

@jurble

The bitchy section of my post was for Varys. Sorry, I could have done more to separate the two parts.

 

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Babblebauble said:

Dawg, the High Lord Turak calls himself a blade master but nobody he's ever trained with is allowed to strike him (drawing the blood of one of The Blood is so out of bounds that not even the Empress can execute other nobles with a blade, Turak tells you this himself). 

That scene is supposed to depict that the rustic farm boy who has had the sword for less than a year is better than the guy who literally cannot be struck in training because he's a more down to earth and, most importantly, willing to accept that Turak might kill him but is still willing to press the attack anyway. Because Rand is willing to die to help his friends, while Turak is not willing to be scratched in order to gain his heron mark. 

That's what the scene is about. Not the literal description of the combat and the presupposition that Turak, coming from more privilege and a more advanced society, is inherently the better sword fighter. 

Can you even read, brah?

Even if this were the case - and I very much doubt that it is since the royal blood of Seanchan could, you know, use TRAINING SWORDS WITH THE WEIGHT OF REAL ONES to get around the idea that nobody cannot spill their blood (although I'd say that if two members of the Blood were to spar and agree that they can spill each other's blood then who is to say they cannot do that?) - having a young guy who basically saw a sword for the first time when he picked up Tam's to fight the Trolloc and who then was trained a couple of weeks (!!!) by Lan should defeat a master of that art is, quite a frankly, a stupid plot, regardless what symbolized meaning you want to transport with such a plot.

And Turak is no way depicted as incompetent ... rather he is very competent, Rand is just 'magically better'. And you must know he didn't earn this victory, he profits from his magical specialness as the reincarnation of Lews Therin on whose memories and skill he unconsciously drew. If we take Rand seriously as a backwater peasant he should have been butchered ... and if we take him seriously as the Dragon Reborn he has no reason to prove himself since his powers and knowledge are superior to anyone on the planets. Fighting him is never a fair fight, as you see, for instance, during the fight with Ishamael in TDR where my sympathies were completely with the chased prey of the Dragon rather than mad balefire-reflecting Rand.

But the sword thing could have easily been made better since the author could have easily enough had Tam taught Rand how to swing a sword. We know he earned his sword, after all, so that's just the first time Jordan drops the ball on preparing his characters for their journey ... as he continues to do later with retconning Mat into Super Stick Fighter guy and then turning him into Super Knife Thrower guy between books 3 & 4 where no time passes at all.

But even if we saw common ground on this trifling issue - the matter I commented on is the larger one - Rand coming to the rescue at the end of every single book up to (at least) book 5 with his super powers. And that is something the show shouldn't - and correctly didn't - do in the first season. We can only hope they will avoid that in the future as well ... unless it is really important and not Dragon Ex Machina #235355.

The show is doing a great thing by having the other people of the gang do something important. What did the others do in TEotE? Pretty much nothing and Mat nearly killed everyone with his dagger shenanigans. In TGH they don't do anything of substance, either (aside from blowing a horn which was handed to Mat) The girls free themselves after they get themselves imprisoned, but the boys don't do anything important. And in book 3 Perrin saves his girlfriend and Mat gets the stupid girls out of their cell. I guess you really need ta'veren to open a cell.

[Arakasi]

WoT is definitely the story of Rand, Mat and Perrin rescuing others. Egwene steps up at the end but other than that it’s mostly the boys, although she gets killed for it and not them. I’m happy they’re spreading that out here. It could have been done better for sure with Nynaeve in this case but I agree with the idea. Also agree not going with three books of Rand winning against Ishy is good. Anyway idea is fine execution needs a lot of help in pacing and production.

I feel Fain, the whitecloaks and Ishy are all better then they were in the books at this point. One thing Jordan never really did well (just like Marvel) is villains so I’ve been pleased here. Heck add Liandrin and that dark friend in episode 3. Keep that up, fix other stuff.

[Jace, Extat]

I don't know how to argue the point when you just make up suppositions about what characters may or may not have possibly agreed to in direct opposition to what the author (the guy whose world you're reading) stated unequivocally in the text.

[IlyaP]

Eight episodes and not a single sniff. I am disappointed.

[Which Tyler]

9 hours ago, Babblebauble said:

Dawg, the High Lord Turak calls himself a blade master but nobody he's ever trained with is allowed to strike him (drawing the blood of one of The Blood is so out of bounds that not even the Empress can execute other nobles with a blade, Turak tells you this himself). 

Not to mention - Ta'veren

[Cas Stark]

I started reading the first book.

I'm kinda shocked it found an audience for 14? books. It's no GOT, and he's no GRRM, that's for sure.  And as for LOTR, is this an homage or just a recycled, not as good, rip off?  We've got Misty Mountains, a white city on a hill, and the breaking of the world and I'm only 8 chapters in.  

[Ran]

34 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

I started reading the first book.

I'm kinda shocked it found an audience for 14? books. It's no GOT, and he's no GRRM, that's for sure.  And as for LOTR, is this an homage or just a recycled, not as good, rip off?  We've got Misty Mountains, a white city on a hill, and the breaking of the world and I'm only 8 chapters in.  

It’s a very deliberate homage to start with. The TR is the Shire, the kids the Hobbits, Lan and Moiraine are a bit Aragorn and Gandalf, etc.

It becomes more of its own thing as it progresses.

[Arakasi]

13 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

I started reading the first book.

I'm kinda shocked it found an audience for 14? books. It's no GOT, and he's no GRRM, that's for sure.  And as for LOTR, is this an homage or just a recycled, not as good, rip off?  We've got Misty Mountains, a white city on a hill, and the breaking of the world and I'm only 8 chapters in.  

Well yea book one is very fellowship rip off. One of the reasons it’s been so problematic for new readers to get into. I don’t think the series would have stuck or done so well if released say the last five years. It basically kicked off the super epic series and that was new. It’s like the blockbuster action film but in book form and it was really the first one with 700 page books and massive scale and crazy epic stuff. It’s like Michael Bay for books. But since then others have done the same thing but much better so it’s nothing special now.

I think the massive issues the series has with gender essentialism and just really poor writing between genders in general would just fail the series if released today. Not to mention plot creep and the general bloat the series has.

[Darryk]

36 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

I started reading the first book.

I'm kinda shocked it found an audience for 14? books. It's no GOT, and he's no GRRM, that's for sure.  And as for LOTR, is this an homage or just a recycled, not as good, rip off?  We've got Misty Mountains, a white city on a hill, and the breaking of the world and I'm only 8 chapters in.  

Everyone calls it a LOTR rip-off when reading the first book. I remember when I first started reading it in High School, I said to my friend who had been persistently recommending it to me that it felt like a LOTR rip-off, he responded "think of it more as a homage" I was like 

But it does become its own thing as it progresses. For me, what sets it apart, and earns it a place as a great fantasy series rather than just another generic Tolkien rip-off, is the Saidin / Saidar dynamic, the effect of the Dark One's taint on male channelers, and how that all influences power dynamics and character development in the story.

The other thing that elevates the story for me is Rand's internal struggle, but I won't go too much into that so as to avoid spoilers. 

But as much as I love the WoT story, I have issues with the writing style and characterization, and I really wonder if I would've been able to enjoy the books if I'd read them when I was older. I feel like teens / early 20s is the right time to read them, not sure they age up as well as GRRM and Abercrombie do.

 

[Lord Varys]

10 hours ago, Arakasi said:

WoT is definitely the story of Rand, Mat and Perrin rescuing others. Egwene steps up at the end but other than that it’s mostly the boys, although she gets killed for it and not them. I’m happy they’re spreading that out here. It could have been done better for sure with Nynaeve in this case but I agree with the idea. Also agree not going with three books of Rand winning against Ishy is good. Anyway idea is fine execution needs a lot of help in pacing and production.

I might be missing something, but compared to Rand Perrin and Mat are complete jokes into book 4. They don't show that they are ta'veren at all ... unless it means that you ta'veren you are a great gambler and pick up a female stalker.

9 hours ago, Babblebauble said:

I don't know how to argue the point when you just make up suppositions about what characters may or may not have possibly agreed to in direct opposition to what the author (the guy whose world you're reading) stated unequivocally in the text.

The author doesn't state 'in the text' that Turak is an amateur whose skills are hampered by the fact that nobody could injure him in a training fight. At least as far as I'm aware of. And both you and Jordan would be aware that real world fencing and boxing allows you to pick up the skills to kill people without actually doing that, right?

1 hour ago, Cas Stark said:

I started reading the first book.

I'm kinda shocked it found an audience for 14? books. It's no GOT, and he's no GRRM, that's for sure.  And as for LOTR, is this an homage or just a recycled, not as good, rip off?  We've got Misty Mountains, a white city on a hill, and the breaking of the world and I'm only 8 chapters in.  

You might want to follow my take on the series here and here.

[Ran]

1 hour ago, Arakasi said:

Well yea book one is very fellowship rip off.

I think that's too strong. It's the start of it basically that Jordan deliberately modelled (and acknowledged he modelled)  on FotR to give readers a sense of familiarity. But very early on the world-building already differentiates itself, with the magic and the Wheel, and by the end of the novel things are going on that are very different from anything that happened in FotR or, indeed, LotR as a whole.

I kind of liked how Sanderson described the series, that the first three novels are basically quest adventures (they even have "plot coupons" in each one, important objects characters have to get a hold of, which is not very reminiscent of Lord of the Rings at all), then the next several become more focused on politics and culture and worldbuilding (with a distinct influence from Dune in the 4th book, though Sanderson suggests that GRRM's A Game of Thrones might have opened Jordan's mind to the possibility of writing more in that direction), and then there's the stretch from 7 to 10 is exploring lots of other characters and stories (Sanderson thinks it's because Jordan got bored or stuck with how to progress Rand's story and shifted to fleshing out other things until serendipity struck and found the way for him), then book 11 (Jordan's last) is a return to the form of the middle novels with everyone having the sense that Jordan had finally gotten himself on track to wrap it up.

I stopped reading the series around book 8 or 9, myself, but I've very fond memories of the preceding novels, flawed though they were. There were moments of real awe and surprise and a sense of earned culmination at times. Jordan was a storyteller, and sometimes could even be rather inspired. A lot of the time, though, sure, he was a fairly middling writer who just had big ideas and a big setting that was novel and mysterious enough to get people engaged. 

[Arakasi]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I might be missing something, but compared to Rand Perrin and Mat are complete jokes into book 4. They don't show that they are ta'veren at all ... unless it means that you ta'veren you are a great gambler and pick up a female stalker.

Yes Rand was the chosen one from the beginning. Even in book one Gareth goes on about how the sword fits him. Basically Rand is exceptional at everything and gets three beautiful women and basically wins every fight.

At book four the other two have been fairly limited although by end of book three they did start to develop. Eventually Mat becomes greatest general ever and can beat about anyone in a fight too. Also is the luckiest person to live. Perrin basically becomes god of fighting and Telanrhiod to the point of where he can stop balefire as a non channeller. All three of course are irresistible to women and each have multiple storylines of the most beautiful women stalking/pursuing them. I tend to skip over those parts to just get to the next big set action piece.