Jump to content

What if houses Gardener and Hoare hadn't died out during the Conquest ?


Recommended Posts

How would the history of the Reach, of the Iron Islands and of the Seven Kingdoms have changed if houses Gardener and Hoare hadn't been exterminated by dragonfire during Aegon's conquest with several Gardener sons having survived the Fields of Fire (which would have been more realistic than all of them dying here due to their number) and one Harren the Black's sons surviving the burning of Harrenhal but being forced to relinquish all claim to the Riverlands and to return to the Iron Islands by Aegon ?

How much different could the history have been with these two great houses surviving and having bent the knee to the Targaryens ?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

History doesn't change because they will also surrender to the dragons.  Their extinction serves a very important lesson to the reader: no family is safe.  Many families will die in Winds of Winter.  People and families come and go but the land remains.  The land is old, says Ned to Robert as they look on the hills.  Families are temporary but the land is perpetual.  The families are only stewards of the land. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

While this is fair, I think it's possible we see early Targaryen kingship play out differently. After all, though Aegon certainly killed his fair share of enemies, he also raised up new lords in important positions. Orys Baratheon, Harlen Tyrell, and Edmyn Tully all owe the rise of their houses to the downfall of pre-Targaryen powers -- a fact which assures their loyalty to the new regime. Keeping the Gardeners and Hoares in play eliminates two of those loyal houses in favor of lines which recall that  they once were kings. Which could mean nothing -- or  could spell trouble.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 12/15/2021 at 1:18 AM, Roswell said:

Their extinction serves a very important lesson to the reader: no family is safe. 

Does it really though? Families dying off seems the exception and not the rule in Westeros. As war filled as the continent is, you still somehow have all these thousand year dynasties. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

Does it really though? Families dying off seems the exception and not the rule in Westeros. As war filled as the continent is, you still somehow have all these thousand year dynasties. 

I assume that most great names had became brands. Or actually members of those houses belong as many dynasties as ancient pharaohs of Egypt but using names like Arryn, Lannister or Stark just was so useful that victorious warlords who replaced previous dynasties using those names started also using those names. Or families ruling Castelry Rock, Eyrie or Winterfell had chanced many times but names of ancient rulers of those castles have survived.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

50 minutes ago, Loose Bolt said:

I assume that most great names had became brands. Or actually members of those houses belong as many dynasties as ancient pharaohs of Egypt but using names like Arryn, Lannister or Stark just was so useful that victorious warlords who replaced previous dynasties using those names started also using those names. Or families ruling Castelry Rock, Eyrie or Winterfell had chanced many times but names of ancient rulers of those castles have survived.

This is the best explanation for the “8,000 year dynasties”. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 12/15/2021 at 10:15 PM, Rhan said:

While this is fair, I think it's possible we see early Targaryen kingship play out differently. After all, though Aegon certainly killed his fair share of enemies, he also raised up new lords in important positions. Orys Baratheon, Harlen Tyrell, and Edmyn Tully all owe the rise of their houses to the downfall of pre-Targaryen powers -- a fact which assures their loyalty to the new regime. Keeping the Gardeners and Hoares in play eliminates two of those loyal houses in favor of lines which recall that  they once were kings. Which could mean nothing -- or  could spell trouble.

I'm pretty sure that Aegon would still separate the Iron Islands from the Riverlands.

Edmyn Tully would still have risen.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

I'm pretty sure that Aegon would still separate the Iron Islands from the Riverlands.

Edmyn Tully would still have risen.

I completely agree Aegon would most certainely have spared Harren's son and let him rule over the Iron Islands but the Riverlands would still have been freed of Ironborn and Edmyn Tully would have been named Lord paramount all the same.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...
On 12/16/2021 at 7:00 PM, Angel Eyes said:

In the case of House Gardener, why did he bring practically his entire family to the battlefield?

Because he cared more about glory than safety.

When your family is rulling The Reach for as long as history itself it would probably be very easy to be naive and think that they will be Kings forever.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 4 months later...
On 12/15/2021 at 4:26 AM, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

How would the history of the Reach, of the Iron Islands and of the Seven Kingdoms have changed if houses Gardener and Hoare hadn't been exterminated by dragonfire during Aegon's conquest with several Gardener sons having survived the Fields of Fire (which would have been more realistic than all of them dying here due to their number) and one Harren the Black's sons surviving the burning of Harrenhal but being forced to relinquish all claim to the Riverlands and to return to the Iron Islands by Aegon ?

How much different could the history have been with these two great houses surviving and having bent the knee to the Targaryens ?

Their successors' roles in the books do have significance. If the Tyrells didn't ascend, then Margaery and Joffrey wouldn't have been able to halt the Battle of the Blackwater and supply King's Landing and ultimately murder Joffrey.
If the Greyjoys didn't ascend, then the Greyjoy Rebellion wouldn't have occured, and Theon wouldn't have been loyal to the Starks and Arya wouldn't get more time to reach and kill the Night King, and if Euron hadn't exiled himself to become a feared pirate captain across Westeros and Essos, then Balon would still lead the ironborn to more losing wars and Cersei wouldn't have so many victories and Yara wouldn't be able to retake the Iron Islands.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I believe that will change quite a lot for the history of Westeros, specially later on.                                                                   First the Hoare's, if a son of Harren or a brother or cousin had survived the burning of Harrenhall then he could have reigned in the Iron Islands, I dont believe Aegon would ever let the Ironborn control the Riverlands since that's how he got most of is willing support. So a surviving Hoare dominion would only extend to the Iron Islands, but were everything change for me is that the Greyjoy dont become the ruler's. I believe that the Ironborn are divided into reformers and old way proponent with the Greyjoy spearheading the second, the Hoare's would be more aligned with the second since they are the one's that put a end to the king's moot making the Iron Islands hereditary but also turned the Ironborn from raiders to conqueror's. So under the Hoare's the Ironborn would for me most likely not take every occasion they get to go raid Westeros and would be closer to rest of the continent but also maybe mor divided interiorly.

The survival of house Gardener would for me unite the Reach during the rule of the Targaryen's. The Reach seems for most of the war's post conquest to just shatter on every side and fall to in-fighting inside the region, for me it is because the Tyrells are still seen as mere stewards to some extend and not particular more important than themselves. The Gardener's being former Kings would most likely be alot more able to keep the Reach as a bloc, meaning that the lord of Highgarden would be alot more influant in the politics of the south. Would the Hightower's go against the rest of the Reach during the Dance ? or if Damon Blackfyre had convince the Reach has a block to join him at the redgrass field ?

So yeah I think that the survival of one or both of those houses change things a lot for Westeros.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...