Was Maegor conceived via sorcery?

[Floki of the Ironborn]

The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that there is something supernatural about Maegor the Cruel. We're given a lot of hints that there's something wrong with him. He's frighteningly big and strong, even as a baby. He's knocking down grown knights in combat when he's barely entering puberty. He's some kind of sadistic psychopath who can barely communicate with people, especially after he wakes up from that coma. Not to mention the fact that all his offspring turned out to be malformed little creatures that wither and die young.

I also notice that GRRM explicitly wrote that Visenya dabbled in sorcery during her spare time. Why would he add that, I wonder? What relevance does it have unless it has to do with Maegor's conception. Before Maegor, Aegon's only heir was Aenys, a frail child who seemed so unlike his father that people suspected Aenys was a bastard born to Rhaenys. Visenya was always the lesser-loved sister of those two, even when Rhaenys was dead. What better way to secure herself than by providing Aegon with a son who was worthy of him and the Iron Throne? I don't know how the magic worked, but it clearly had some disastrous consequences, given how Maegor turned out.

It also adds a whole new layer of tragedy to the story of Maegor. Visenya's eldritch experiment manages to usurp the throne and defeat his own kin to defend it, but what's the point when he can't create any children of his own? It was all such a bloody waste in the end, and all Visenya's plotting was for nothing. 

[Lord Varys]

Well, I very much like that idea, especially since I may have been the first person to ever put forth the idea publicly, immediately after the TSotD reading years ago.

It got much more likely, in my opinion, after I realized that George actually used the idea of an artificially created male clone of a weirdo woman long ago in the novella 'Nightflyers'. This is something he thought about about and may have intended to use again in ASoIaF.

If I had to guess then George's take on Aenys and Maegor if he were to ever write a detailed history - or novel about Aegon and his wives - that he would have Aegon treat his sons the way he treated/felt for his sister-wives.

He would dote on Aenys - never mind that he wasn't his biological son - because he was the only thing of Rhaenys he had left. And like he would glorify the wife he had lost after her death, he would overlook and downplay Aenys' faults, explaining why the guy seems to be so ill-prepared to rule despite the fact that he spent a lot of time with his 'dad'.

Vice versa, Maegor would be a male version of Visenya (plus weirdo sadism and stuff), causing him to view as a constant remainder of the wife he never truly loved and started to loathe more and more as they grew old together.

What the point of Maegor was is also pretty clear. Rhaenys was dead, Aenys very sick, and people were pushing Aegon to remarry because was 'perhaps barren'.

Not only had she to have a child to remain the sole queen at Aegon's side, but they also had to have a spare to save the dynasty if Aenys were to die without issue. Once Maegor was there Visenya was more fond of him than Aenys and thought he was better suited for the crown, etc.

And Maegor himself really couldn't cope with the fact that he couldn't father any (living) children on Ceryse or most of his other women.

In context this may have also been a problem that passed on from the elder generation - if Aegon was truly sterile then the children issue would have put enormous pressure on them all ... pressure that wouldn't have gone away after Aegon had two 'sons', since both could easily die of accidents, illnesses, or murder long before the succession was secure.

Aenys and Alyssa seem to become the darlings of the Conqueror in no small part because of their continuous fertility - they give Aegon five healthy grandchildren during his reign ... whilst Maegor can produce none. That must have been an enormous letdown for Visenya, Aegon, and Maegor. And the Conqueror may have shown his displeasure over this.

If you think along those lines the thirteen children of Jaehaerys and Alysanne also make a lot of sense. They didn't know their grandfather very well ... but their parents may have made it very clear that the dragons had to procreate. The deaths of Aegon the Uncrowned and Viserys and Vaella would have added fuel to that fire, of course.

The generations after Jaehaerys and Alysanne seem to act more like normal noble families, no longer insisting they have to have an army of children.

[Floki of the Ironborn]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

 

The generations after Jaehaerys and Alysanne seem to act more like normal noble families, no longer insisting they have to have an army of children.

Well, apart from Baelon and Alyssa, anyway. GRRM really liked the idea of that brother and sister getting it on as loudly and frequently as they could, and Alyssa even boasted that she'd produce an army of sons in the process.

[The Lord of the Crossing]

2 hours ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that there is something supernatural about Maegor the Cruel. We're given a lot of hints that there's something wrong with him. He's frighteningly big and strong, even as a baby. He's knocking down grown knights in combat when he's barely entering puberty. He's some kind of sadistic psychopath who can barely communicate with people, especially after he wakes up from that coma. Not to mention the fact that all his offspring turned out to be malformed little creatures that wither and die young.

I also notice that GRRM explicitly wrote that Visenya dabbled in sorcery during her spare time. Why would he add that, I wonder? What relevance does it have unless it has to do with Maegor's conception. Before Maegor, Aegon's only heir was Aenys, a frail child who seemed so unlike his father that people suspected Aenys was a bastard born to Rhaenys. Visenya was always the lesser-loved sister of those two, even when Rhaenys was dead. What better way to secure herself than by providing Aegon with a son who was worthy of him and the Iron Throne? I don't know how the magic worked, but it clearly had some disastrous consequences, given how Maegor turned out.

It also adds a whole new layer of tragedy to the story of Maegor. Visenya's eldritch experiment manages to usurp the throne and defeat his own kin to defend it, but what's the point when he can't create any children of his own? It was all such a bloody waste in the end, and all Visenya's plotting was for nothing. 

 

56 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, I very much like that idea, especially since I may have been the first person to ever put forth the idea publicly, immediately after the TSotD reading years ago.

It got much more likely, in my opinion, after I realized that George actually used the idea of an artificially created male clone of a weirdo woman long ago in the novella 'Nightflyers'. This is something he thought about about and may have intended to use again in ASoIaF.

If I had to guess then George's take on Aenys and Maegor if he were to ever write a detailed history - or novel about Aegon and his wives - that he would have Aegon treat his sons the way he treated/felt for his sister-wives.

He would dote on Aenys - never mind that he wasn't his biological son - because he was the only thing of Rhaenys he had left. And like he would glorify the wife he had lost after her death, he would overlook and downplay Aenys' faults, explaining why the guy seems to be so ill-prepared to rule despite the fact that he spent a lot of time with his 'dad'.

Vice versa, Maegor would be a male version of Visenya (plus weirdo sadism and stuff), causing him to view as a constant remainder of the wife he never truly loved and started to loathe more and more as they grew old together.

What the point of Maegor was is also pretty clear. Rhaenys was dead, Aenys very sick, and people were pushing Aegon to remarry because was 'perhaps barren'.

Not only had she to have a child to remain the sole queen at Aegon's side, but they also had to have a spare to save the dynasty if Aenys were to die without issue. Once Maegor was there Visenya was more fond of him than Aenys and thought he was better suited for the crown, etc.

And Maegor himself really couldn't cope with the fact that he couldn't father any (living) children on Ceryse or most of his other women.

In context this may have also been a problem that passed on from the elder generation - if Aegon was truly sterile then the children issue would have put enormous pressure on them all ... pressure that wouldn't have gone away after Aegon had two 'sons', since both could easily die of accidents, illnesses, or murder long before the succession was secure.

Aenys and Alyssa seem to become the darlings of the Conqueror in no small part because of their continuous fertility - they give Aegon five healthy grandchildren during his reign ... whilst Maegor can produce none. That must have been an enormous letdown for Visenya, Aegon, and Maegor. And the Conqueror may have shown his displeasure over this.

If you think along those lines the thirteen children of Jaehaerys and Alysanne also make a lot of sense. They didn't know their grandfather very well ... but their parents may have made it very clear that the dragons had to procreate. The deaths of Aegon the Uncrowned and Viserys and Vaella would have added fuel to that fire, of course.

The generations after Jaehaerys and Alysanne seem to act more like normal noble families, no longer insisting they have to have an army of children.

His size can be credited to his parents.  Aegon and Visenya were tall and physical.  Cruelty is a personality characteristic he either learned or was born with.  We don't know.  I am glad he was cruel.  It took that kind of merciless cruelty to beat the religious militants.  Religious fanatics are stubborn.  Bargaining and reasoning were not the right solutions to beat the soldiers of the faith.  Nothing less than brutality would have worked.  Maegor saved his family and secured the Targaryen rule for 300 years. 

[Lord Varys]

9 minutes ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

Well, apart from Baelon and Alyssa, anyway. GRRM really liked the idea of that brother and sister getting it on as loudly and frequently as they could, and Alyssa even boasted that she'd produce an army of sons in the process.

Yeah, okay, but after them no Targaryen seemed to obsessed having as many children as they possibly could. And even Baelon/Alyssa may have stopped after, say, five strong sons or thereabouts.

4 minutes ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

His size can be credited to his parents.  Aegon and Visenya were tall and physical.  Cruelty is a personality characteristic he either learned or was born with.  We don't know.  I am glad he was cruel.  It took that kind of merciless cruelty to beat the religious militants.  Religious fanatics are stubborn.  Bargaining and reasoning were not the right solutions to beat the soldiers of the faith.  Nothing less than brutality would have worked.  Maegor saved his family and secured the Targaryen rule for 300 years. 

That is actually not true. Maegor was the biggest enemy of House Targaryen, trying to kill all his brother's sons and thus nearly extinguishing his own dynasty. If he killed Jaehaerys as well, the royal house may have effectively died with Maegor.

He also created the trouble he then helped to end by taking a second wife and humiliating the Hightowers and the High Septon. Gyldayn pretty much points out that it was Maegor's polygamy thing which caused the uprising - the incest of Aegon-Rhaena fueled it further, but without Maegor's transgression there may have been no need for a war with the Faith.

They may have been able to settle things peacefully somehow - even if it had involved giving up the incestuous marriages.

[James Steller]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Yeah, okay, but after them no Targaryen seemed to obsessed having as many children as they possibly could.

How do you measure that, though? What's the cutoff number? Rhaenyra gave birth six times in her life, was she trying to make as many kids as possible? In fact, I can think of quite a few times that a Targaryen couple had at least four kids: Daeron had four kids, Aegon V and Aegon III had five kids each, Maekar had six, Alyssa Targaryen/Baratheon had seven, Aerys II had eight. And that's excluding illegitimate kids they all might have had.

Sure, Jaehaerys and Alysanne had way more kids than anyone else in their family tree, but was that for lack of trying? Does Westeros have contraception? We know that Aegon IV and Aerys II were regularly having sex with their wives, and with many other women besides. Were they the types who would put on a condom, even if one exists in that universe?

And speaking of those two, both their wives and several other Targaryen women struggled greatly with childbirth, and some died in their birthbeds. If they didn't struggle, though, we can surely assume that they might have had as many kids as Alysanne did. And hell, Alysanne's track record wasn't great either now that I think about it; all but three of her kids predeceased her.

[Lord Varys]

8 minutes ago, James Steller said:

How do you measure that, though? What's the cutoff number? Rhaenyra gave birth six times in her life, was she trying to make as many kids as possible? In fact, I can think of quite a few times that a Targaryen couple had at least four kids: Daeron had four kids, Aegon V and Aegon III had five kids each, Maekar had six, Alyssa Targaryen/Baratheon had seven, Aerys II had eight. And that's excluding illegitimate kids they all might have had.

Sure, Jaehaerys and Alysanne had way more kids than anyone else in their family tree, but was that for lack of trying? Does Westeros have contraception? We know that Aegon IV and Aerys II were regularly having sex with their wives, and with many other women besides. Were they the types who would put on a condom, even if one exists in that universe?

And speaking of those two, both their wives and several other Targaryen women struggled greatly with childbirth, and some died in their birthbeds. If they didn't struggle, though, we can surely assume that they might have had as many kids as Alysanne did. And hell, Alysanne's track record wasn't great either now that I think about it; all but three of her kids predeceased her.

My point was just that I think, narrative-wise, the fact that the Conqueror and Maegor were as infertile as they were played a huge role in the family dynamics of that era, all the way to Jaehaerys-Alysanne and their children. The the issue of having enough heirs to ensure a continuation of the dynasty would have been the deciding factor within the Targaryen family until the death of the Conqueror - and, for Maegor at least, until his death, too.

Overall, unless certain couples had considerable fertility problems, we should have more Alysannes if we talk the mere numbers of pregnancies.

Since we don't have that, I expect that quite a few royal couples called it a day after 3-4 children rather than using moon tea.

[Daeron the Daring]

To the OP: I don't think so. 

I mean there's this whole idea about Aegon I being sterile, but this fertility thing isn't a zero or hero thing. You're not either sterile or fecund as a rabbit. Fertility amd infertility have different levels of seriousness. Aegon I may have been infertile (I think he was), but he may have been able to father 1 or 2 children, but no more. That's an everyday scenario. 

If, let's say, Aenys wasn't his son, and Maegor was conceived tru some sorcery, then wouldn't it make sense to prefer Maegor over Aenys in case Aenys was a planned bastard or something. Sorcery or not, Maegor had to have a biological father, who was Aegon. 

I think this whole thing has serious holes, but could be a possibility. People often bring up Maegor's infertility and the very way his conceived children were born, and he may have been infertile to some extent like his father, but the monstrosities his children turned out to be were the product of Tyanna, and they vere concieved by Maegor still, as far as we know it. 

[Lord Varys]

11 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

To the OP: I don't think so. 

I mean there's this whole idea about Aegon I being sterile, but this fertility thing isn't a zero or hero thing. You're not either sterile or fecund as a rabbit. Fertility amd infertility have different levels of seriousness. Aegon I may have been infertile (I think he was), but he may have been able to father 1 or 2 children, but no more. That's an everyday scenario. 

If, let's say, Aenys wasn't his son, and Maegor was conceived tru some sorcery, then wouldn't it make sense to prefer Maegor over Aenys in case Aenys was a planned bastard or something. Sorcery or not, Maegor had to have a biological father, who was Aegon. 

I think this whole thing has serious holes, but could be a possibility. People often bring up Maegor's infertility and the very way his conceived children were born, and he may have been infertile to some extent like his father, but the monstrosities his children turned out to be were the product of Tyanna, and they vere concieved by Maegor still, as far as we know it. 

Oh, the best version of that take is that Aegon I didn't have any children at all. That Aenys was a bastard conceived by conventional means, while Maegor was conceived/created by Visenya through sorcery ... and in neither conception was the worthless seed of the great Conqueror involved.

That way, there is no reason why Aegon himself should prefer the younger bastard produced by the sister-wife he loathed over the elder bastard child of the martyred sister-wife he adored.

But then - Aegon could have still doted on Aenys just because he was Rhaenys child even if he wasn't his seed and he knew that, while dismissing Maegor the Freak who he knew to be his son simply because how much he loved Rhaenys.

And if you look at things Maegor eventually turned into a dead end, dynastically. Perhaps Aegon thought for a time that he might change the succession so Maegor would inherit ... but then Maegor was unable to father children while Aenys and Alyssa gave Aegon five grandchildren.

The Realm needs continuation and dynastic stability. Aenys had sons who could succeed him one day. Maegor didn't.

Not to mention that Maegor clearly wasn't kingly material. Aegon would have to be madman to actually hand the Iron Throne to Maegor. At least if he wanted that his descendants keep what he and his sisters conquered.

As for Maegor's own children: Well, Tyanna claimed that she was responsible ... but was she? We have no idea. It is rather odd that Ceryse's womb never quickened - and we know that he was with Alys for five years before she got pregnant, and Tyanna's womb never quickened at all. Also, we can expect that Maegor fucked women left and right throughout his first marriage to produce at least bastards he could legitimize before he went down into the rabbit hole of polygamy. And we do know that he kept an entire harem of mistresses and whores in addition to his legitimate wives once he became king - and from none of this women came but a single bastard child. That is ample confirmation that the man wasn't exactly fertile.

One would rather assume that Maegor turned to Tyanna and her sorcery to help him produce children ... rather than that she used her sorcery to poison them. But then - in light of there being other Targaryen monstrosities the blame for Maegor's weirdo children most likely lies with him and the quality of his semen ;-).

[Daeron the Daring]

10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Oh, the best version of that take is that Aegon I didn't have any children at all. That Aenys was a bastard conceived by conventional means, while Maegor was conceived/created by Visenya through sorcery ... and in neither conception was the worthless seed of the great Conqueror involved.

I guess my point wasn't exactly as straightforward as I intended to be. 

If, let's say Rhaenys went to another men for a bastard, I assume it was ok if Aegon knew. If not, and Aegon was as sterile as a desk, then he himself might have looked behind the joy Rhaenys' pregnancy brought, and assuming he wasn't a complete idiot, he might as well figured out things. But that may not have been a problem to him I'll allow it. 

But when you say that Maegor wasn't the child of Aegon, nor regularly, nor via sorcery, then that makes no sense. If Visenya wanted to give Aegon another bastard, then she could've achieved it easily without any kind of sorcery. 

If we talk of sorcery involved, then Maegor has to be Aegon's biological son. Which would give him an advantage over Aenys in Aegon's eyes. Especially after Rhaenys' death, Visenya had a decade to convince Aegon to choose his trueborn son over a bastard. That Visenya wouldn't know makes no sense since she used sorcery because Aegon was sterile. Which made it easy to figure out something might and must be behind Aenys. 

The only version you could say is somewhat valid while Aenys is still a bastard is that Aegon loved her so much he didn't care. But even that is very unlikely. These things were nevwr brought up in the succession war between Maegor and Aenys' sons, altough he, and especially Visenya had to know this much. 

[Lord Varys]

10 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

I guess my point wasn't exactly as straightforward as I intended to be. 

If, let's say Rhaenys went to another men for a bastard, I assume it was ok if Aegon knew. If not, and Aegon was as sterile as a desk, then he himself might have looked behind the joy Rhaenys' pregnancy brought, and assuming he wasn't a complete idiot, he might as well figured out things. But that may not have been a problem to him I'll allow it.

As I said, I'd expect that if George wrote up the reign of the Conqueror and his sons in detail, then the issue of heirs, of ensuring the peaceful continuation of the dynasty would be the big issue.

Aenys was only born seven years after the Conquest was over, at a time when the Aegon's queens were becoming less and less fertile each year. There was tremendous pressure there already, and it seems clear that if Rhaenys picked another father for her child it was done with Aegon's permission, possibly even at his command since they desperately needed heirs.

10 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

But when you say that Maegor wasn't the child of Aegon, nor regularly, nor via sorcery, then that makes no sense. If Visenya wanted to give Aegon another bastard, then she could've achieved it easily without any kind of sorcery.

Only if she herself was fertile. She could have had the same or worse issues than Aegon himself.

Also, in context - Visenya's position seems to have been dire in 10 AC. Folks were pushing Aegon to take a new wife and Visenya was viewed as 'perhaps barren'. She was two years older than Aegon himself, i.e. already thirty-nine in 10 AC and forty-one when Maegor was born.

Perhaps she could have gotten pregnant through conventional means ... but she may not have had a son. And that was what secured her place at Aegon's side. And if you check the text she was very confident that her child would be a son even before Maegor was born.

10 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

If we talk of sorcery involved, then Maegor has to be Aegon's biological son. Which would give him an advantage over Aenys in Aegon's eyes. Especially after Rhaenys' death, Visenya had a decade to convince Aegon to choose his trueborn son over a bastard. That Visenya wouldn't know makes no sense since she used sorcery because Aegon was sterile. Which made it easy to figure out something might and must be behind Aenys.

That is in no way a given. Aegon's love for Rhaenys and her memory could have still beaten out the birth of Maegor. Even more since Aenys was five years older - and thus earlier a man grown who could take over for Aegon if he were to die unexpectedly. Not to mention that making Maegor the heir instead of Aenys would have caused problems - he would, perhaps, even have to declare Aenys a bastard, shitting on the memory of Rhaenys of the process of that, making himself a laughing-stock in front of the Realm, losing the respect of his people and lords, etc.

And as I already said - Maegor eventually became a dynastic dead ed in the 20s when he failed to produce children of his own - while Aenys and Alyssa gave Aegon five grandchildren, securing the future of House Targaryen. If Aegon ever had quiet doubts about succession, then the birth of Rhaena, Aegon, and Viserys would have put them to rest.

10 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

The only version you could say is somewhat valid while Aenys is still a bastard is that Aegon loved her so much he didn't care. But even that is very unlikely. These things were nevwr brought up in the succession war between Maegor and Aenys' sons, altough he, and especially Visenya had to know this much. 

How could Visenya and Maegor bring that up while Maegor himself had no heirs of his own? As things stood, Maegor had to keep his brother's descendants as his heir or risk that the dynasty ended with him.

Also, if Maegor himself wasn't Aegon's son but a monstrosity created by black magic.

[Willam Stark]

I do think he was conceived via sorcery, but he's still Aegon's son. Aegon I clearly had fertility issues, due to inbreeding in my opinion which explains why he didn't have more kids. Inbreeding is also the cause of the Aenys' sickly condition, if he really was the bastard of Rhaenys and an unknown guy, he would have been a healthy man which is not the case.

Aenys' condition was a serious threat to the dynasty and Aegon couldn't produce another child by natural means, so Visenya used sorcery to strenghten Aegon's seed and slept with him in order to give birth to a healthy and strong boy: Chad Maegor was born. 

But sorcery has a cost and Maegor ended up with his father's fertility issues, bad luck for him and his mother.

[Daeron the Daring]

On 12/16/2021 at 9:05 PM, Lord Varys said:

Aenys was only born seven years after the Conquest was over, at a time when the Aegon's queens were becoming less and less fertile each year. There was tremendous pressure there already, and it seems clear that if Rhaenys picked another father for her child it was done with Aegon's permission, possibly even at his command since they desperately needed heirs.

What seems clear may sometimes be your own opinion and not what is clearly indicated in the text or anything.

There are point backing Aenys as the actual son of Aegon I (and all the while Maegor being conceived via magic or not), wether you like it or not:

-It would be quite logical for an aged man with fertility issues to have a son like Aenys, who's physical survival may have been challenging.

-There is no point (from anyone's perspective) to have a sorcery child that isn't Aegon's. So far we've been discussing Aegon's fertility issues, not Visenya's. If Visenya was infertile as well tho (how would she know that, tho), then she could've made the thing working from Aegon's side as well, if she managed to do so for herself. So, this point of yours is entirely illogical. That, to me, entirely rules out the possibility of Maegor being a son of anyone beside Aegon I (sorcery or not, doesn't matter). And it logically does, in my opinion.

-In case Aenys was a bastard born to Rhaenys, there are two options: She did it while Aegon knew or she did behind his back. In case he didn't know, to get to know this could've ruined the entire image of Rhaenys that Aegon built up for himself, which could've and should've made Aegon handle the situation smoothly (like making Aenys give up his birthright), or not so smoothly (disinheriting him and revealing his bastard origins). I see both ways possible, and no reason not to do so any of the two when Aegon had a Maegor. In case he knew:

-In case Aenys was in fact a bastard without Aegon ever finding out or giving his blessing to all this shit, I can't see how Visenya would not know it and not use this information to her and his son's advantage at any time. From blackmailing Aegon (from a very early moment to making Maegor call his competititon/s sons of a bastard up until her own death). You know, the such things happened during the Dance or with Stannis. 

-Maegor, after all, fathered a few children. That all of their lives ended in an unfortunate ways is supposedly Tyanna's doing, and we have no reason to think otherwise.

If you say Aenys wasn't Aegon's son, I humbly disagree. But if you say neither was Maegor, I say you talking bullshit. It seems what you can accept as the truth can be often more wild or outrageous than what I could. This is too much for my imagination, nor do I see any purpose to it.

[Daeron the Daring]

On 12/16/2021 at 9:05 PM, Lord Varys said:

How could Visenya and Maegor bring that up while Maegor himself had no heirs of his own? As things stood, Maegor had to keep his brother's descendants as his heir or risk that the dynasty ended with him.

History is written by the winners. In case Jaehaerys wins, such a thing would be called a simple lie Maegor came up with to gain support. Not a single problem with that. And remind me if I'm wrong but wasn't it you who said in the other post that Maegor couldn't care less about destroying his own dynasty? (not that it would've done any harm at all)

[Lord Varys]

On 12/17/2021 at 1:48 PM, Willam Stark said:

I do think he was conceived via sorcery, but he's still Aegon's son. Aegon I clearly had fertility issues, due to inbreeding in my opinion which explains why he didn't have more kids. Inbreeding is also the cause of the Aenys' sickly condition, if he really was the bastard of Rhaenys and an unknown guy, he would have been a healthy man which is not the case.

That isn't really the standard, or else Daeron-Myriah and Maekar-Dyanna would have only produced healthy children and not as many freaks as they did. Egg-Betha also had one very sick child with Jaehaerys II.

1 hour ago, Daeron the Daring said:

History is written by the winners. In case Jaehaerys wins, such a thing would be called a simple lie Maegor came up with to gain support. Not a single problem with that. And remind me if I'm wrong but wasn't it you who said in the other post that Maegor couldn't care less about destroying his own dynasty? (not that it would've done any harm at all)

But Maegor would have trouble keeping Aenys' descendants as his heirs - which he did - if he were to claim that King Aenys himself had been a bastard with no claim to the throne.

It would also mean that Maegor had to shit on the memory of the Conqueror, undermining the young dynasty as a whole.

We see how crucial the fiction/propaganda is that Visenya and Maegor were close to the Conqueror. Visenya calls him 'her love' during the struggle with the Faith Militant ... when they most likely hated each other when Aegon died and Visenya may have later poisoned King Aenys. The only chance they had at a power grab was if they were viewed as loyal to Aegon's memory.

2 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

What seems clear may sometimes be your own opinion and not what is clearly indicated in the text or anything.

To be very clear: This is just a theory. I don't *claim that it is a fact* that either Aenys or Maegor are not the Conqueror's children. I just say there are pretty strong hints that this might be the case.

2 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

There are point backing Aenys as the actual son of Aegon I (and all the while Maegor being conceived via magic or not), wether you like it or not:

Actually, no, aside from Aegon treating Aenys as his son there are no further hints that he actually fathered the child. Robert also treated Cersei's children as his own ... but this doesn't affect who the biological father was.

We do have rumors that Aenys wasn't the Conqueror's son, that Rhaenys slept around with impunity, and no source actually disputes those rumors - say, by making it clear that Rhaenys could have only slept with Aegon when Aenys was conceived.

The only 'proof' that Aenys is a trueborn Targaryen is that he doesn't die in the cradle and becomes a dragonrider. By that standard, Rhaenyra's sons are also Laenor's trueborn children whereas Viserys II - whose dragon egg never hatched - would be a bastard.

2 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

-It would be quite logical for an aged man with fertility issues to have a son like Aenys, who's physical survival may have been challenging.

That isn't an argument, just a statement, and one that's rather odd due to the fact that an Aegon five years older supposedly fathered strong Maegor.

2 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

-There is no point (from anyone's perspective) to have a sorcery child that isn't Aegon's. So far we've been discussing Aegon's fertility issues, not Visenya's. If Visenya was infertile as well tho (how would she know that, tho), then she could've made the thing working from Aegon's side as well, if she managed to do so for herself. So, this point of yours is entirely illogical. That, to me, entirely rules out the possibility of Maegor being a son of anyone beside Aegon I (sorcery or not, doesn't matter). And it logically does, in my opinion.

Visenya's fertility issues aren't in doubt - she is called 'childless and perhaps barren' in 10 AC. Folks seem to have viewed her as barren not Aegon as sterile prior to the pregnancy which produced Maegor.

The idea that Visenya might not wonder about her own fertility twenty or more years into a childless marriage is a huge stretch. Everybody would wonder about that. And her being a sorceress could mean that she may have magically investigated whether she could bear children or not ... not to mention asking the advice of countless maesters and other healers.

And as I said - if you look at the book then Visenya suddenly announces she is pregnant with a boy, etc. - at a time when Aegon may have been considering cutting her ties with her or at least taking a new young wife to replace the late Rhaenys.

Visenya needed to secure her role as queen by doing her duty and giving the king an heir. At first glance her duty would involve Aegon in this as well ... but if Rhaenys was impregnated by another man, so could Visenya resort to other means. And there are quite a few reasons why this might have happened ... from Aegon refusing to have sex with Visenya - like Maegor no longer slept with Tyanna later in their marriage - to Visenya just deciding that Aegon was sterile and not really bothering with him.

Keep in mind we must assume these people tried to have children for years and years - possibly more than twenty years by the time Maegor was finally conceived. They would have been way past the 'let's have sex, I'm sure it will work' phase... And they must have tried every possible remedy long before Aenys was born in 7 AC.

2 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

-In case Aenys was a bastard born to Rhaenys, there are two options: She did it while Aegon knew or she did behind his back. In case he didn't know, to get to know this could've ruined the entire image of Rhaenys that Aegon built up for himself, which could've and should've made Aegon handle the situation smoothly (like making Aenys give up his birthright), or not so smoothly (disinheriting him and revealing his bastard origins). I see both ways possible, and no reason not to do so any of the two when Aegon had a Maegor. In case he knew:

-In case Aenys was in fact a bastard without Aegon ever finding out or giving his blessing to all this shit, I can't see how Visenya would not know it and not use this information to her and his son's advantage at any time. From blackmailing Aegon (from a very early moment to making Maegor call his competititon/s sons of a bastard up until her own death). You know, the such things happened during the Dance or with Stannis.

Of course, Visenya didn't *have to know* about the true parentage of Aenys. She could have known about that, but there is no reason to believe that she was ever told.

Maegor was always only conceived as a spare. Aenys was Aegon's heir from the moment of his birth, and he was five years older. As I said - it would have caused problems for Aegon to change the succession in favor of Maegor.

1. Aenys was older, so a better successor if Aegon were to die early/suddenly. Keep in mind that both boys were born during the First Dornish War.

2. Maegor was basically a sadistic freak from birth and not the kind of heir a sane monarch would want.

3. Aenys and Alyssa gave the Conqueror healthy grandchildren while Maegor proved to be a dynastic dead end during the reign of the Conqueror.

You must realize that these people were pragmatic. They needed heirs if the hounds should not come for them in their old age. And it doesn't really matter if 'a son' of Aegon the Conqueror was fathered by him if he does have his blood through either Rhaenys or Visenya. These guys are an inbred family, after all. And the idea that Aegon of all people had already absorbed the shitty way in which the Westerosi treated their bastards is also not very likely. He made his own baseborn half-brother Orys Baratheon a great lord in his own right, married him to a king's daughter - actually suggested him as the husband of Argella Durrandon prior to the Conquest, when he wasn't exactly in that strong a position.

This guy wouldn't behave as a bigot and insist that his beloved sister-wife's son shouldn't succeed him because he may not be the biological father. Especially not if the only viable alternative was a half-mad sadist whose charisma was even worse than his mother's.

2 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

-Maegor, after all, fathered a few children. That all of their lives ended in an unfortunate ways is supposedly Tyanna's doing, and we have no reason to think otherwise.

That happened during his own reign. While the Conqueror ruled Maegor had no children at all ... nor during the reign of Aenys.

Neither Aegon I nor Aenys wanted Maegor to turn polygamist, nor did anyone ever want to set aside the marriage with the High Septon's niece. So Maegor was impossible as an heir ... since his own heirs would inevitably have to be Aenys' children or grandchildren. So why rock the boat and name the sadistic nutcase the heir who was the younger dragonless son who might fuck everything up?

2 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

If you say Aenys wasn't Aegon's son, I humbly disagree. But if you say neither was Maegor, I say you talking bullshit. It seems what you can accept as the truth can be often more wild or outrageous than what I could. This is too much for my imagination, nor do I see any purpose to it.

I'm pretty convinced we are supposed to conclude that Aenys is, most likely, not Aegon's biological son.

And we are also to wonder how exactly Maegor was conceived and if he was truly Aegon's son.

[Odej]

It reminds me of Voldemort. He was conceived because his mother, Merope Gaunt, bewitched his father, Tom Riddle, so that he would fall in love with her. The two got married, but when the spell passed the guy left her pregnant and the child that was born of that false union made possible only by magic and deception became a psychopath, Lord Voldemort.

[Lord Varys]

40 minutes ago, Odej said:

It reminds me of Voldemort. He was conceived because his mother, Merope Gaunt, bewitched his father, Tom Riddle, so that he would fall in love with her. The two got married, but when the spell passed the guy left her pregnant and the child that was born of that false union made possible only by magic and deception became a psychopath, Lord Voldemort.

As I said, George actually uses the plot of a weirdo mother creating a freak male clone of herself in the novella 'Nightflyers'. This is actually something he used before. I was at the TSoD reading before reading 'Nightflyers' and back then I just thought 'well, if Aenys is likely not Aegon's son, then it would be nice symmetry if Maegor wasn't, either' ... but with George actually using this entire plot before it is actually very likely that the sole point why Visenya was turned into a reputed sorceress was that the germ of such a plot was in place.

After all, if you think about Visenya - who we have known for a long time was a warrior-woman - the fact that she should have dabbled in sorceries and poison came as a considerable surprise.

Those are, traditionally, practices which are no associated with (manly) warriors but since George decided that Visenya may have murdered her nephew Aenys with poison she needed to be familiar with that.

The conception and birth of Maegor seems the only point in her life where Visenya could have used sorcery to accomplish something. There is no other instance where something weird happens we could attribute to her sorcery.

Maegor's miraculous recovery later on can be traced back to Tyanna's sorcery - who most likely was a more experienced/powerful sorceress than Visenya.

[Fool Stands On Giant’s Toe]

We are given the impression of Maegor’s conception as something sorcerous and foul upon first reading. His name is used as the high mark of vileness. That the title “The Cruel” was well earned.

I’ve never been convinced of his cruelty. Killing cats and cutting half a face off a stable boy? could be cruel if true. But Cruelty may have not been his motive. (Attacked by a horse and cut half a face off? Suspicious.) I’m partial to believing Maegor was maligned by those who opposed him. Possibly because he was the only  true born son of Aegon. Makes more sense, his father’s sword given to him by his brother, Baleon, taking the Throne, etc.

Three wives or hostages?
     Would wives be kept in a place called “maiden vault?” I’ve never toyed with the idea. Has the sound of “No sex. None. Uh-uhh. No foolery with toolery allowed.” 

 

[Daeron the Daring]

8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

But Maegor would have trouble keeping Aenys' descendants as his heirs - which he did - if he were to claim that King Aenys himself had been a bastard with no claim to the throne.

He didn't have to keep them as heirs. The point of no turning back could've been the moment when he married Rhaena and named Aerea his heir, but before that, nothing was there to keep him from doing it so. In case of his sudden death at any point (the only time he needed an heir), someone from Aenys' line would've succeeded him anyway, no matter what he said about them. 

That this never happened proves a point. Suggests something. 

8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

It would also mean that Maegor had to shit on the memory of the Conqueror, undermining the young dynasty as a whole.

Not at all. Look at the credibility of this idea. Most people wouldn't have given a single damn about it simply because of Maegor's nature. But it's definitely something a desperate man would've done in that situation. 

8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

We see how crucial the fiction/propaganda is that Visenya and Maegor were close to the Conqueror. Visenya calls him 'her love' during the struggle with the Faith Militant ... when they most likely hated each other when Aegon died and Visenya may have later poisoned King Aenys. The only chance they had at a power grab was if they were viewed as loyal to Aegon's memory

This propaganda had no value for the most part of Maegor's own reign. 

8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

To be very clear: This is just a theory. I don't *claim that it is a fact* that either Aenys or Maegor are not the Conqueror's children. I just say there are pretty strong hints that this might be the case.

That's what I said. But you certainly 'sounded' like you're presenting the actual canon plot/lore behind. 

8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Actually, no, aside from Aegon treating Aenys as his son there are no further hints that he actually fathered the child. Robert also treated Cersei's children as his own ... but this doesn't affect who the biological father was.

Nope. I just wrote them down. The situation (even if Aenys was a bastard) of Aegon I and Robert are completely incomparable, wether Aegon knew the truth or not. 

8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

We do have rumors that Aenys wasn't the Conqueror's son, that Rhaenys slept around with impunity, and no source actually disputes those rumors - say, by making it clear that Rhaenys could have only slept with Aegon when Aenys was conceived.

So I'm supposed to believe Rhaenys was sleeping around and at the same time Aegon didn't want to ruin her 'statue'? You shouldn't be coming up with contradictionary arguments. 

The thing is: Rhaenys had a lot of singers around herself, she loved music, and Aenys was a good singer and loved music as well. This is the only single thing that could be a hint towards Aenys being a bastard of a singer, but at the same time, all this could've come from Rhaenys herself. And if, let's say, Aegon was willing to accept another man's son as his own, he probably didn't let a fucking singer bang the Queen of the Seven Kingdoms, but may have looked at distant or not so distant bloodrelations in this case. 

8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The only 'proof' that Aenys is a trueborn Targaryen is that he doesn't die in the cradle and becomes a dragonrider. By that standard, Rhaenyra's sons are also Laenor's trueborn children whereas Viserys II - whose dragon egg never hatched - would be a bastard.

Well, I certainlly didn't build up any of my arguments on the fact that Aenys was able to ride a dragon, yet I provided many. So not sure why this is something we have to discuss. 

8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That isn't an argument, just a statement, and one that's rather odd due to the fact that an Aegon five years older supposedly fathered strong Maegor.

Maegor is a child of sorcery (100% for you). To be fair, even myself are much more convinced he is at this point. So the issue of him not being sickly shouldn't be a problem. Rhaenys was a woman in his early thirties, and supposedly had a child with someone, yet Aenys turned out to be sicly? Does that make more sense to you?

 

8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Visenya's fertility issues aren't in doubt - she is called 'childless and perhaps barren' in 10 AC. Folks seem to have viewed her as barren not Aegon as sterile prior to the pregnancy which produced Maegor.

The idea that Visenya might not wonder about her own fertility twenty or more years into a childless marriage is a huge stretch. Everybody would wonder about that. And her being a sorceress could mean that she may have magically investigated whether she could bear children or not ... not to mention asking the advice of countless maesters and other healers.

And as I said - if you look at the book then Visenya suddenly announces she is pregnant with a boy, etc. - at a time when Aegon may have been considering cutting her ties with her or at least taking a new young wife to replace the late Rhaenys.

Visenya needed to secure her role as queen by doing her duty and giving the king an heir. At first glance her duty would involve Aegon in this as well ... but if Rhaenys was impregnated by another man, so could Visenya resort to other means. And there are quite a few reasons why this might have happened ... from Aegon refusing to have sex with Visenya - like Maegor no longer slept with Tyanna later in their marriage - to Visenya just deciding that Aegon was sterile and not really bothering with him.

Keep in mind we must assume these people tried to have children for years and years - possibly more than twenty years by the time Maegor was finally conceived. They would have been way past the 'let's have sex, I'm sure it will work' phase... And they must have tried every possible remedy long before Aenys was born in

People assumed Visenya was barren because they didn't want to assume the Conqueror was infertile. In case Visenya never slept in her life with anyone else beside her own husband (who we can agree was infertile), she may have been a fertile woman. We may simply never know, but she still gave birth to a son who was Aegon's (you provided no evidence why couldn't or wouldn't the father Aegon be. Mostly because he 100% is Aegon's son, there is no other logical explanation.).

8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Of course, Visenya didn't *have to know* about the true parentage of Aenys. She could have known about that, but there is no reason to believe that she was ever told.

She didn't have to be told Awnys is a bastard. She had many ways to find that out (in case she wondered why nor she nor her sister got pregnant. As you said, she most certainly did), via sorcery or other normal investigating methods. 

8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

. Aenys was older, so a better successor if Aegon were to die early/suddenly. Keep in mind that both boys were born during the First Dornish War.

Still not his own son. The age gap wasn't big either, and there is no reason Aegon had to expect an early death (he was a chad). 

8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Maegor was basically a sadistic freak from birth and not the kind of heir a sane monarch would want.

Bullshit. Unless people gave Maegor rabbits to kill in the cradle. He turned out as he is, but these kind of problems don't show up AT FKCN BIRTH, but around the age of 8-10. Which is a lot of time. This is the dumbest thing I've heard today (i woke up recently, but still). 

8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Aenys and Alyssa gave the Conqueror healthy grandchildren while Maegor proved to be a dynastic dead end during the reign of the Conqueror.

Which gave the Conqueror about 10 years that are exceptionally ideal to simply deal with this problem. This argumemt didn't stand for the first time either, how many times you want to bring it up? 

9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

This guy wouldn't behave as a bigot and insist that his beloved sister-wife's son shouldn't succeed him because he may not be the biological father. Especially not if the only viable alternative was a half-mad sadist whose charisma was even worse than his mother's.

Sorry, you're making shit up. Maegor wasn't always a sadist, Aegon had a reason to favor Maegor over Aenys, especially if Rhaenys did cheat on him while he didn't know. You often apply modern views (or simply quite unnatural ones) on these people (like the one with Corlys, I think you remember it), but you gotta admit these aren't really favorite ideas to anyone. 

9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I'm pretty convinced we are supposed to conclude that Aenys is, most likely, not Aegon's biological son.

And we are also to wonder how exactly Maegor was conceived and if he was truly Aegon's son.

You believe whatever you want. I already told my opinion about what you think (it didn't change), and I don't intend to repeat myself for the second time (this reply is me repeating myself, basically), so let's agree to disagree. 

[Julia H.]

I think the idea that Maegor was conceived via sorcery is very convincing, and so is the suggestion that Aegon was infertile. (It is the kind of irony that, I believe, is quite characteristic of GRRM). After reading the posts above, there is one possibility that occurred to me (I have no particular proof, just an idea): If Maegor was Aegon's biological son born via sorcery, perhaps it involved some kind of magical process that Aegon ultimately found rather revolting (whether it had happened with his permission or not), which could be a reason or one more reason for him not to have very warm feelings towards Maegor to start with and to prefer Aenys (even if he perhaps knew that Aenys was not his). 

I also wonder if the sorcery through which Maegor was conceived may have had anything to do with dragons. After all, "the blood of the dragon" thing is very often repeated, and what if Visenya took it for literal? That would explain some of Maegor's character traits perhaps. So what if Maegor was more a dragon than the average Targaryen? In this case Aegon the Dragon may have considered him his in a way but not the way he would have preferred it.