The Red Comet

[LynnS]

On 12/22/2021 at 5:38 PM, TheBlackSwan said:

There is only one prophecy, TPtwP = AAR.

Rh'llor cultist thinks the Prince that is going to rise against the darkness is the champion of their god, thus calling him Azor Ahai but it's the same prophecy.

I really don't know what's going to happen with this prophecy anymore.  I am curious about where people stand after 10 years, if opinions have changed.  I know that mine has changed from one all encompassing prophecy to related but connected prophecies that don't necessarily imply one character will fill the hero role or that there won't be more than one magical sword or hero.

[LynnS]

On 12/22/2021 at 6:11 PM, Nathan Stark said:

Anybody who takes the Azor Ahai prophesy at face value should re-read Marwin's advice. 

Azor Ahai was; 1) likely not a real person in the ASoIaF universe. 2) was a murderer who sacrificed his wife for a magic sword, and so is not someone to emulate. And 3) the conditions predicating his "return" could be met by Dany, yes, but also by Summerhall, Jon Snow at the Tower of Joy, or frickin' Ser Pounce in the kitchens. George likes his prophesies to be ambigous, and to come true in wholly unexpected ways. So I am skeptical that the predictions of Dany being Azor Ahai reborn are so easy and simple. The odds are not in your favor.

I am a believer in LML's theory about the red comet being a harbinger of a Long Night. It will in some way cause the next Long Night, possibly through impact with the planet or its moon. This would very literally cause a "long night."

I have the same feeling about it.    For all I know the hero could be born under the banner of the bleeding stars (the faith militant): or the sigil of House Dayne.  That the sort of curve ball that Martin would throw at readers.  Or someone could plunge a valyrian steel sword into Melisandre's fiery heart and make a red sword, Red Rahloo's version of Lightbringer.

I am still puzzling over MMD's prophecy that Dany will see Drogo again when she gives birth to another living child.  So I wonder if this a vision she has during childbirth or if it's something else related to the comet if that is what he represents.

Normally comets don't return once they pass the sun;  but coincidently we could be talking about a red asteroid that behaves like a comet.  A trojan/centaur class asteroid that has an eccentric orbit around planets.  Would Martin have known about such objects?

Will it return?  Maybe and if it does, this could be when AA makes his appearance in the story.  I'm not sure Dany is AA.  She is the bride of fire and mother of dragons and she has been elevated in some way when she dreams of the singing dragon and her soul is cleansed and transformed.  In preparation to become the mother of dragons.  Certainly immunity to fire is a kind of miracle and she probably qualifies as holy blood now.

She has also gone through the stages of mother, maiden and soon to be crone of Vaes Dothrak.  It's the crone who lights the way or show the path and gives strength to the Warrior.  I'm assuming this is the warrior of light that Mel invokes.

I don't think it's necessary for the comet to crash into Planetos to cause the long night.  Although I think it's possible for a an astronomical body to be fractured and break up when it contacts atmosphere and so there could have been a thousand, thousand dragons raining down on the planet; meteorites of various sizes without causing planet-wide destruction.  Of those that make it to the surface, the oily black stones.

The long night could just be a euphemism for winter with longer nights in the North.  A darkness covering the land a reference to the darkness in men's hearts; wars, famine, pestilence rather than a completely blackened sky.

I expect we will still see night and day in thet WoW.  But a darkness is starting to cover the land in other respects. 

 

[Fun Guy from Yuggoth]

@LynnS If you've never read it you should listen to Clark Ashton Smith's The Beast of Averoigne (audio fulltext) it features a red comet that is alive and that is called "blood and fire" and "Satan's rutilant hair" (lucifer/lightbringer red comet) and that a demon comes down from the comet nightly to prey on humans.  The demon is called the spawn of the seventh hell.

 

And of course, the business about a red comet being Lucifer/Satan falling to Earth after being cast out of heaven is from the bible:

 Isaiah 14 :12 "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!"

Luke 10:18  "I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven"

Revelation 12:3 Satan was described as a great red dragon whose "tail swept a third part of the stars of heaven and cast them to the earth"

Revelation 12:8-9 "And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."

and from Milton's Paradise Lost:

Incensed with indignation Satan stood
Unterrified, and like a Comet burned,
That fires the length of Ophiuchus huge
In the Arctic Sky, and from his horrid hair
Shakes pestilence and war.

Satan is a red comet.  The red comet is a living, supernatural being.  (George used the idea about a celestial object bringing pestilence in The Plague Star, where the Ark spaceship is seen as a star that brings cyclical plagues as it passes by--while the Ark was derelict, it was still full of living creatures)

And George's Volcryns from Nightflyers are very much like the red comet, they are huge interstellar creatures that fly through space using telekinesis and broadcast telepathic energy wherever they go.

 

The devil tree landing on Mars as a falling star was the plot of Clark Ashton Smith's Vulthoom, and Vulthoom's plan was to launch himself to Earth to take it over.  And in Ian Wallace's the Lucifer Comet, the devil gets launched off of Mars as a comet and lands on Earth.  (and astronomers used to believe that comets came from the other planets in the solar system)

And in Asimov's Nemesis, there is a red planet coming to Earth, and it has a planet-spanning hive-minded neural network of bacteria that is conscious and has telepathy.  It is only a slight modification of that plot the have Mars be the red planet because it is covered in a hive-minded network of weirwoods, and the red leaf canopy is what makes it red.

 

In Old Norse "the bloody star" refers to Mars, and in gaelic Mars is spelled Mairt (as in Martin), and in Hindi Mars is lohit, which means "blood and red" and is below lohar which means "blacksmith, forge, furnace" and loharin means "blacksmith's wife" and loha means "iron, weapon, blade" and lohiya means "made of iron" and lohi means "dawn"

Mars is the Smith, and all the elements about a swordsmith forging swords with his wife, and blood and bringing the dawn are there right next to Mars.

So the business about being born under a bleeding star might refer to Mars.  And I think the red comets are coming from Mars in a succession as they are being shot out of the solar system as star seeds to populate other planets.

In Hindi nisa nisa means "eternal night" and asur means "demon" and ahi means "snake, lord of the serpents" and references Visnu's snake bed --and on the same page as ahi, there is the word ahriman which means "the devil" and aheran which means "anvil" and aha means "an exclamation of pleasure; also pain" and aho means "day"

So Azor Ahi is the devil, the lord of the serpents, in a nest of snakes/weirwood roots.  He marries the darkness and causes the Long Night, only to then end the Long Night by thrusting a flaming red comet into her (the darkness was caused by Nisa Nisa eclipsing the sun, and the comet knocks her out of eclipse). And this is where "the cry of anguish and ecstasy" comes from, and another smithy anvil reference.

 

(And on the same page ahri / adhara means "small pond" which is an Ice Dragon reference, when Adhara's ice dragon melts, it leaves a puddle, and Arry is one of Arya's aliases.  Ahri, adhara, eddard loved his small pond in front of the weirwood)

 

 

In Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn, the Red Comet is called the Conqueror Star, and it makes three appearances within a few years, and it is also "somehow alive" and the magic greatsword black Thorn was made from a piece of it that fell to Earth, and the sword was itself sentient.  That series also has alien telepathic otherworldly tree that lives under the WhiteTower.  The WhiteTower itself is described as Otherworldly and alien.

In Vance's Dragon Masters the red comet is a planet with an eccentric orbit that comes close to Aerlith every 1000 years or so, and dragon's live on it, and when it comes close enough to Earth, the dragon's raid Aerlith for slaves.

 

[LynnS]

9 hours ago, By Odin's Beard said:

Clark Ashton Smith's The Beast of Averoigne (audio fulltext)

Are you just trying to scare me?  

[Fun Guy from Yuggoth]

So I already noted that in the Oxford Hindi-English dictionary ahi ("snake, serpent") is on the same on the page as ahriman, and ahriman means "lord of darkness and chaos" (and recall that Vulthoom is the devil/tree and his servitors are called Ahai and they are green martian frog men). 

Ahriman is partly where Saruman's name comes from, but also in Robert E. Howards The Hour of the Dragon, the Heart of Ahriman is a magic red jewel that is a ball of fire.  The Heart of Ahriman was kept in the Temple of Asura (so Asura + Ahriman) The Heart of Ahriman is called "the veritable heart of god" and "a star that fell from the skies long ago" and "a cosmic power" and "the Heart of Ahriman came from some far universe of flaming light"

So the Heart of Ahriman was a red comet that fell to Earth.  3,000 years ago it was found and worshiped by the ancient sorcerer Xaltotun who ruled the evil black empire of Acheron, the jewel greatly heightened the wizard's power, it brings the dead back to life, but it was stolen from him and used against him and he retreated to Stygia--and all of this closely parallels the Bloodstone Emperor worshiping the Bloodstone, and using it to create an undead army, and ruling over Asshai and then retreating to Stygai when he was defeated. 

 

In gaelic caor means "round ball of fire, fireball, meteor" and caorthann means "blaze" and caorthainn means "rowan tree, quicken tree, mountain ash, and valerian" and car-thonn means "a fire-wave, violent billow"

Which supports my theory that the Red Comet is a weirwood.

The Red Comet is a round ball of fire / fireball that led Dany the Valyrian to Qarth (caorth), and before she gets there she finds a big fire opal jewel in the desert on a dead dragonrider.  A fire opal is a red jewel. 

Bloodstone is a phrase that means "sacrificial altar" and well as being a black and red gem.  Weirwoods are sacrificial altars.

So the Heart of Ahriman is used to bring Xaltotun back to life after 3,000 years and he begins to terrorize the land again, and he literally rolls back time to bring Acheron into the present. (one of the nobles helping him is Valerius, whose throne was usurped, and he is trying to reclaim it)

This all lends support to my theory that the Bloodstone was a piece of weirwood or weirwood sap that fell out of the sky and took over the mind of the Bloodstone Emperor, (or it could just be a mythologized account of the origins of weirwoods, that they fell out of the sky and humans began worshiping them.)

So the Heart of Ahriman is used to bring Xaltotun back to life, and then used to kill him also.  Which parallels the weirwood being used to cause the Long Night, as well as to end it.

 

Weirwood sap is ruby, and in gaelic, ruby is spelled ruib, and ruibheach means "lucifer match" and ruibhne means "lance, javelin, ray of light" and ruibh-cloch means "sulphurous, brimstone" and ruibhne means "armed with a lance or spear, piercing (of the eye), lancer"

So the piercing Eye (God's Eye) is associated with Lucifer match, brimstone, and is armed with lances, spears, and a ray of light

[LynnS]

5 minutes ago, By Odin's Beard said:

Heart of Ahriman is a magic red jewel that is a ball of fire.

This conjures up Mel's ruby does it not?

[Fun Guy from Yuggoth]

6 minutes ago, LynnS said:

This conjures up Mel's ruby does it not?

Yes, and I think she is just a metaphor for a weirwood tree--red hair, red eyes, white skin, ruby third eye.  And Stannis is a metaphor for the Night King who "marries" her and together they birth cold shadow baby assassins--White Walkers.

In Hindi sindur / sinduri means "red, vermillion" and sinduri also means the tree Mallotus (source of a dye, and of a drug)"

and two pages before sindur, salis means "third, a third person" because Selyse is the third wheel in their triangle.

[Fun Guy from Yuggoth]

While we are talking about shadow babies, the whole plot of Stannis killing Renly in the tent with the shadow assassin was ripped off from The Hour of the Dragon:

The two armies of Nemedia and Aquilonia have gathered and will commence fighting at dawn.  But before sunrise the shadow ghost of Xaltotun comes into Conan's tent and paralyzes Conan, so that Conan cannot lead his forces into battle.  A man is found that is Conan's look-a-like and he is put in Conan's black armor to lead the army--which he blunders, and they all die, and the battle is lost.  When Conan meets Xaltotun he realizes the shadow ghost was him. 

A projected shadow ghost that resembles the man who cast it, attacking the king in his tent on the eve of battle, and thereby winning the battle.  This parallels the Renly vs Stannis eve of battle scene with Stannis' shadow ghost killing Renly in the tent and changing the course of events, and later with Renly's armor being worn by someone else.

The shadow ghost is called a "child of shadow"

[LynnS]

6 hours ago, By Odin's Beard said:

Yes, and I think she is just a metaphor for a weirwood tree--red hair, red eyes, white skin, ruby third eye.  And Stannis is a metaphor for the Night King who "marries" her and together they birth cold shadow baby assassins--White Walkers.

There was some speculation at Radio Westeros that Mel is an albino (dyes her hair) and the daughter of Bloodraven and Shierra Seastar.  That would make her a dragon.

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Prologue

"Maester," said Lady Melisandre, her deep voice flavored with the music of the Jade Sea. "You ought take more care." As ever, she wore red head to heel, a long loose gown of flowing silk as bright as fire, with dagged sleeves and deep slashes in the bodice that showed glimpses of a darker bloodred fabric beneath. Around her throat was a red gold choker tighter than any maester's chain, ornamented with a single great ruby. Her hair was not the orange or strawberry color of common red-haired men, but a deep burnished copper that shone in the light of the torches. Even her eyes were red . . . but her skin was smooth and white, unblemished, pale as cream. Slender she was, graceful, taller than most knights, with full breasts and narrow waist and a heart-shaped face. Men's eyes that once found her did not quickly look away, not even a maester's eyes. Many called her beautiful. She was not beautiful. She was red, and terrible, and red.

As usual I tend to drill down on magical objects and how they are used.  Mel uses large square cut rubies in glamors.

Stannis' sword:

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Catelyn III

As he neared, she saw that Stannis wore a crown of red gold with points fashioned in the shape of flames. His belt was studded with garnets and yellow topaz, and a great square-cut ruby was set in the hilt of the sword he wore. Otherwise his dress was plain: studded leather jerkin over quilted doublet, worn boots, breeches of brown roughspun. The device on his sun-yellow banner showed a red heart surrounded by a blaze of orange fire. The crowned stag was there, yes . . . shrunken and enclosed within the heart. Even more curious was his standard bearer—a woman, garbed all in reds, face shadowed within the deep hood of her scarlet cloak. A red priestess, Catelyn thought, wondering. The sect was numerous and powerful in the Free Cities and the distant east, but there were few in the Seven Kingdoms.

Mance's cuff:

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Jon IV

In the King's Tower, Jon was stripped of his weapons and admitted to the royal presence. The solar was hot and crowded. Stannis and his captains were gathered over the map of the north. The wrong-way rangers were amongst them. Sigorn was there as well, the young Magnar of Thenn, clad in a leather hauberk sewn with bronze scales. Rattleshirt sat scratching at the manacle on his wrist with a cracked yellow fingernail. Brown stubble covered his sunken cheeks and receding chin, and strands of dirty hair hung across his eyes. "Here he comes," he said when he saw Jon, "the brave boy who slew Mance Rayder when he was caged and bound." The big square-cut gem that adorned his iron cuff glimmered redly. "Do you like my ruby, Snow? A token o' love from Lady Red."

And surprise, surprise, look what Illyrio gives Aegon to wear around his neck:

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - The Lost Lord

When the lad emerged from the cabin with Lemore by his side, Griff looked him over carefully from head to heel. The prince wore sword and dagger, black boots polished to a high sheen, a black cloak lined with blood-red silk. With his hair washed and cut and freshly dyed a deep, dark blue, his eyes looked blue as well. At his throat he wore three huge square-cut rubies on a chain of black iron, a gift from Magister Illyrio. Red and black. Dragon colors. That was good. "You look a proper prince," he told the boy. "Your father would be proud if he could see you."

I don't think this bodes well for Aegon.  I've wondered if magisters are associated with the red religion.  Magister is the root of magisterium: the teaching authority of the Roman Catholic Church, especially as exercised by bishops or the Pope.

The red priests are always dressed in red.  Melisandre in flame colored silk. 

Illyrio in flame colored silk:

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys I

"Regal," Magister Illyrio said, stepping through an archway. He moved with surprising delicacy for such a massive man. Beneath loose garments of flame-colored silk, rolls of fat jiggled as he walked. Gemstones glittered on every finger, and his man had oiled his forked yellow beard until it shone like real gold. "May the Lord of Light shower you with blessings on this most fortunate day, Princess Daenerys," the magister said as he took her hand. He bowed his head, showing a thin glimpse of crooked yellow teeth through the gold of his beard. "She is a vision, Your Grace, a vision," he told her brother. "Drogo will be enraptured."

Melisandre in similar attire:

Quote

As ever, she wore red head to heel, a long loose gown of flowing silk as bright as fire, with dagged sleeves and deep slashes in the bodice that showed glimpses of a darker bloodred fabric beneath.

Guess who else has come to check out Dany:

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys I

They stepped past the eunuch into a pillared courtyard overgrown in pale ivy. Moonlight painted the leaves in shades of bone and silver as the guests drifted among them. Many were Dothraki horselords, big men with red-brown skin, their drooping mustachios bound in metal rings, their black hair oiled and braided and hung with bells. Yet among them moved bravos and sellswords from Pentos and Myr and Tyrosh, a red priest even fatter than Illyrio, hairy men from the Port of Ibben, and lords from the Summer Isles with skin as black as ebony. Daenerys looked at them all in wonder … and realized, with a sudden start of fear, that she was the only woman there.

 

 

 

 

[Fun Guy from Yuggoth]

@LynnS We know ruby is used to glamour, but it is interesting if any character that wears ruby is not who they claim to be.  I will have to read through all the mentions of ruby and think about it.

But here is something, in Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn, King Prester John won the throne by killing the red dragon Shurakai that lived underneath the Hayholt castle.  This parallels Robert winning the throne by killing Rhaegar.  But later we find out that Prester John did not kill the dragon, that the dragon was already dead when he found it.  (and Prester John was raising a son that wasn't his but was fathered by one of his kingsguard, just like Robert, and dies at the beginning of the story just like Robert)

And Rhaegar's black armor was famous for being covered in rubies.  And in The Hour of the Dragon, they send out Conan's body double in his black armor and the body double is killed but everyone thinks Conan died.  And in the Iliad, Patroclus wears Achilles' armor and gets killed by Hector, but they think Achilles was killed.

 

[LynnS]

7 hours ago, By Odin's Beard said:

We know ruby is used to glamour, but it is interesting if any character that wears ruby is not who they claim to be.  I will have to read through all the mentions of ruby and think about it.

Is it used for anything else.  Why does it seem to pulse in time with her heartbeat?  Why does Mance feel heat from the ruby on his cuff? Why does the ruby on Mance's cuff go dark when Mel breaks the spell?Why did Mel think she was in danger of burning up when she burned Rattleshirt.  She was saved by Jon ordering him killed him with an arrow.

Does the ruby act as a conduit for fire magic in a more literal sense?

[Phylum of Alexandria]

11 hours ago, By Odin's Beard said:

And Rhaegar's black armor was famous for being covered in rubies.  And in The Hour of the Dragon, they send out Conan's body double in his black armor and the body double is killed but everyone thinks Conan died.  And in the Iliad, Patroclus wears Achilles' armor and gets killed by Hector, but they think Achilles was killed.

Seems like GRRM has possibly referenced the armor-body double motif with Loras wearing shadow-victim Renly's armor at the Battle of the Blackwater, though if it's a reference it's an inversion of the standard telling. 

As for rubies, they're not the only stones that can be used for glamors (e.g., Bloodraven's moonstone brooch), and I doubt that every reference in the series will correspond to glamoring. Still, Blue-eyed Wolf has made the case that the rubies discovered at the Quiet Isle (which may well have been Rhaegar's rubies) should clue us in to a possible future use of glamoring by some of the brothers there (namely the Elder Brother and Gravedigger Clegane), particularly because the mention of the rubies was coupled with the mention of bones, tying in with Melisandre's description of glamoring. Certainly a possibility to think about.

[Fun Guy from Yuggoth]

1 hour ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

Seems like GRRM has possibly referenced the armor-body double motif with Loras wearing shadow-victim Renly's armor at the Battle of the Blackwater, though if it's a reference it's an inversion of the standard telling.

When Mance is glamoured and living as Rattleshirt, they think they have killed the King*, but it was a body-double, and the King was wearing someone else's armor, and Mel puts special emphasis on the wearing of the armor, because that is all most people will see and that it helps the illusion.  And Mance has several Rhaegar parallels, being a man of song, and wearing a black and scarlet cloak, etc.

And there is Cleon the Butcher King of Astapor, his corpse being suited in armor and strapped to a horse and sent into battle.  In gaelic, claon means "deceit"

 

*In the book Celtic Myths and Legends it says "According to an unknown writer cited by Plutarch, . . . ‘ the Land of the Dead’ is the western extremity of Great Britain, separated from the eastern by an im­passable wall. On the northern coast of Gaul, says the legend, is a populace of mariners whose business is to carry the dead across from the continent to their last abode in the island of Britain."

So Britain is a land full of the undead, George just moved the Wall to the north.  And the phrase "go to the wall" means to die, and that makes the King-Beyond-the-Wall is the king of the dead.  And in Jaimes' weirwood dream Rhaegar is the Night King leading the Others under the Shadow of a gigantic Lion-shaped rock that blots out the sun.

 

[Fun Guy from Yuggoth]

Oh, and in Latin Manes means "the deified souls of the departed, the ghosts or shades of the dead, the gods of the lower world, infernal deities"

And Mance can cross the impassible barrier between life and death.

 

[Fun Guy from Yuggoth]

On 1/20/2022 at 3:15 AM, LynnS said:

Is it used for anything else.  Why does it seem to pulse in time with her heartbeat?  Why does Mance feel heat from the ruby on his cuff? Why does the ruby on Mance's cuff go dark when Mel breaks the spell?Why did Mel think she was in danger of burning up when she burned Rattleshirt.  She was saved by Jon ordering him killed him with an arrow.

Does the ruby act as a conduit for fire magic in a more literal sense?

 

If Melisandre is a metaphor for a weirwood tree, and the ruby is weirwood sap, it all makes sense.  Ruby (and moonstone, both are weirwood) allows someone to take on the semblance of another person, and the power of skinchanging comes from the Weirwoods, and that was why Mel felt what Rattleshirt felt, because the whole thing had to be relayed through the weirwood network.  And Mance escaped death by putting on the semblance of another person--like a greenseer jumping into another body and living a second life.  And I think there is significance of him putting on skeleton armor, like he was skeleton being reanimated. 

It also explains why rubies are described as being hardened weirwood sap, and blood and fire, a burning third eye, and likened to the Red Comet--because they are all the same thing.

Arya and Bran have both been inducted into weirwood cults and are learning how to take on the semblance of others, and even to actually become them--to put on the skin of another person.  (sidhe faeries abducted children and replaced them with changelings, Arya and Bran were replaced by doppelgangers and now they are both changelings)

 

Catelyn is a red haired woman who becomes Stoneheart (tree) when she dies.  In hindi tul means "red" and tula means "balance scales, to judge one's guilt or innocence" and in gaelic tul means "hill" and tuilm means "tree" and tuile means "flood, torrent"  and in welsh tyle means "hill" and tylles means "hole"

Red and white undead tree on a hill that judge's ones guilt.

 

 

ETA: I just found that cathl means "melody" in Welsh, and aria means "melody" in Swedish, and siansa means "melody" in Gaelic.  And melos means "melody" in Latin.  And George wrote a story called Remembering Melody, that I haven't read yet.

 

EETA: More evidence linking ruby with the Red Comet, in gaelic ribe means "hair" and the word comet means "hairy star" and ribeog means "hair, rag, tassle" and ribead / riobaid means "melody" and in Hindi rag means "red" and "melody" and "song"

In Carl Sagan's book Comet, there are at least two pictures #1 #2 of a Halley's Comet with the word "rag" written on or above it.  And George wrote Armageddon Rag, about a song that will end the world.

And comets are ice and fire. 

EEETA: I just searched the Hindi dictionary for "melody" and the word lay means "melody, song" and "destruction of the world"  So is that where George got the idea of a song that destroys the world?

 

 

 

[LynnS]

18 hours ago, By Odin's Beard said:

If Melisandre is a metaphor for a weirwood tree, and the ruby is weirwood sap, it all makes sense.

Melisandre as metaphor doesn't actually tell me how she is using the rubies.  That's more or less what I'm after.  

It's seems there was some kind of feedback loop with Mance's ruby feeling heat on his wrist.  Likewise with Rattleshirt in the fire.  She seems to have barely missed burning up herself.  I've wondered how Melisandre sustains herself if fire consumes.

Moqorro says there are 1000 fiery hands of R'hllor and when one of them burns out, they are replaced.  What keeps Melisandre going given her actual age? 

Thoros worries that bringing back Beric one more time would mean the end of both of them.  Something is consumed each time.  With Beric, it's his memory and I suspect with Thoros, it's his life force.

Mel is the character who uses the most magic.  In creating her shadow babies with Stannis, he is losing strength and vigor.  What does she lose?  What is she using up if it isn't her own life force?  What would that look like on the page?

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Davos II

There was no answer but a soft rustling. And then a light bloomed amidst the darkness.

Davos raised a hand to shield his eyes, and his breath caught in his throat. Melisandre had thrown back her cowl and shrugged out of the smothering robe. Beneath, she was naked, and huge with child. Swollen breasts hung heavy against her chest, and her belly bulged as if near to bursting. "Gods preserve us," he whispered, and heard her answering laugh, deep and throaty. Her eyes were hot coals, and the sweat that dappled her skin seemed to glow with a light of its own. Melisandre shone.

I think this is it here.  R'Hllor is the god of light and life.  She is using up her life force.

But it seems to me that she has to replenish what she uses up.  

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Melisandre I

The red priestess shuddered. Blood trickled down her thigh, black and smoking. The fire was inside her, an agony, an ecstasy, filling her, searing her, transforming her. Shimmers of heat traced patterns on her skin, insistent as a lover's hand. Strange voices called to her from days long past. "Melony," she heard a woman cry. A man's voice called, "Lot Seven." She was weeping, and her tears were flame. And still she drank it in.

She drinks in the fire.  Is it a coincidence that the ruby is placed at her throat?

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Melisandre I

Three tallow candles burned upon her windowsill to keep the terrors of the night at bay. Four more flickered beside her bed, two to either side. In the hearth a fire was kept burning day and night. The first lesson those who would serve her had to learn was that the fire must never, ever be allowed to go out.

 

Is this just the hearth fire or is she more concerned about the fire within herself?  Does she gain something by burning victims, their life force.  Is this what was happening when she burned Rattleshirt?  Jon wonders if he is seeing the power of king's blood at work:

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Jon III

Stannis Baratheon drew Lightbringer.

The sword glowed red and yellow and orange, alive with light. Jon had seen the show before … but not like this, never before like this. Lightbringer was the sun made steel. When Stannis raised the blade above his head, men had to turn their heads or cover their eyes. Horses shied, and one threw his rider. The blaze in the fire pit seemed to shrink before this storm of light, like a small dog cowering before a larger one. The Wall itself turned red and pink and orange, as waves of color danced across the ice. Is this the power of king's blood?

How can it be king's blood if Rattleshirt is not a king.  Mel is also glamoring Stannis' sword at the same time and the Wall is reacting.  It seems to me she was over-stretched and drawing too much power from the Wall focused through her ruby.  That resulted in consuming too much fire from Rattleshirt.

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Davos I

"You did not see the gods burn, my lord?" he asked.

"The red priests have a great temple on Lys. Always they are burning this and burning that, crying out to their R'hllor. They bore me with their fires. Soon they will bore King Stannis too, it is to be hoped." He seemed utterly unconcerned that someone might overhear him, eating his grapes and dribbling the seeds out onto his lip, flicking them off with a finger. "My Bird of Thousand Colors came in yesterday, good ser. She is not a warship, no, but a trader, and she paid a call on King's Landing. Are you sure you will not have a grape? Children go hungry in the city, it is said." He dangled the grapes before Davos and smiled.

The red priests are always burning something.  With Mel we know that includes human sacrifice including children if she can get them.  But why?

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Samwell III

This is still a dream, Sam prayed. Oh, make it that I'm still asleep, make it a nightmare. He's dead, he's dead, I saw him die. "He's come for the babe," Gilly wept. "He smells him. A babe fresh-born stinks o' life. He's come for the life."

Gilly tells us infants stink of life.  They have the most life force.  The Others take them for that reason.

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Bran II

"Hid you. I pulled you out." Meera nodded at the girl. "It was her who saved us, though. The torch … fire kills them."

"Fire burns them. Fire is always hungry."

 Fire is always hungry!

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Melisandre I

"Does my lady wish to break her fast?" asked Devan.

Food. Yes, I should eat. Some days she forgot. R'hllor provided her with all the nourishment her body needed, but that was something best concealed from mortal men.

 What is that nourishment?  The life force of others to replace what she uses up?

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Davos I

Pale flames licked at the grey sky. Dark smoke rose, twisting and curling. When the wind pushed it toward them, men blinked and wept and rubbed their eyes. Allard turned his head away, coughing and cursing. A taste of things to come, thought Davos. Many and more would burn before this war was done.

Melisandre was robed all in scarlet satin and blood velvet, her eyes as red as the great ruby that glistened at her throat as if it too were afire. "In ancient books of Asshai it is written that there will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him." She lifted her voice, so it carried out over the gathered host. "Azor Ahai, beloved of R'hllor! The Warrior of Light, the Son of Fire! Come forth, your sword awaits you! Come forth and take it into your hand!"

Her ruby drinks in the light:

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Davos II

"I am named Melisandre, ser." She alone came unarmored, but for her flowing red robes. At her throat the great ruby drank the daylight. "I serve your king, and the Lord of Light."

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Davos III

"The war," she affirmed. "There are two, Onion Knight. Not seven, not one, not a hundred or a thousand. Two! Do you think I crossed half the world to put yet another vain king on yet another empty throne? The war has been waged since time began, and before it is done, all men must choose where they will stand. On one side is R'hllor, the Lord of Light, the Heart of Fire, the God of Flame and Shadow. Against him stands the Great Other whose name may not be spoken, the Lord of Darkness, the Soul of Ice, the God of Night and Terror. Ours is not a choice between Baratheon and Lannister, between Greyjoy and Stark. It is death we choose, or life. Darkness, or light." She clasped the bars of his cell with her slender white hands. The great ruby at her throat seemed to pulse with its own radiance. "So tell me, Ser Davos Seaworth, and tell me truly—does your heart burn with the shining light of R'hllor? Or is it black and cold and full of worms?" She reached through the bars and laid three fingers upon his breast, as if to feel the truth of him through flesh and wool and leather.

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Davos IV

"When the fires speak more plainly, so shall I. There is truth in the flames, but it is not always easy to see." The great ruby at her throat drank fire from the glow of the brazier. "Give me the boy, Your Grace. It is the surer way. The better way. Give me the boy and I shall wake the stone dragon."

The ruby drinks in fire and light and has a heartbeat.

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Davos VI

Stannis rounded on him in a cold fury. "I know his name. Spare me your reproaches. I like this no more than you do, but my duty is to the realm. My duty . . ." He turned back to Melisandre. "You swear there is no other way? Swear it on your life, for I promise, you shall die by inches if you lie."

"You are he who must stand against the Other. The one whose coming was prophesied five thousand years ago. The red comet was your herald. You are the prince that was promised, and if you fail the world fails with you." Melisandre went to him, her red lips parted, her ruby throbbing. "Give me this boy," she whispered, "and I will give you your kingdom."

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Jon XI

She laughed. "Never." The ruby at her throat seemed to pulse, in time with the beating of her heart. "The Lord's fire lives within me, Jon Snow. Feel." She put her hand on his cheek, and held it there while he felt how warm she was. "That is how life should feel," she told him. "Only death is cold."

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Jon III

"The Horn of Joramun?" Melisandre said. "No. Call it the Horn of Darkness. If the Wall falls, night falls as well, the long night that never ends. It must not happen, will not happen! The Lord of Light has seen his children in their peril and sent a champion to them, Azor Ahai reborn." She swept a hand toward Stannis, and the great ruby at her throat pulsed with light.

And here a subconscious gesture on Mel's part when she talks about Gilly's baby as a useless mouth to feed and Jon's plan to send him away.  

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Jon I

"Castle Black needs no useless mouths," Jon agreed. "I am sending Gilly south on the next ship out of Eastwatch."

Melisandre touched the ruby at her neck. "Gilly is giving suck to Dalla's son as well as her own. It seems cruel of you to part our little prince from his milk brother, my lord."

Jon's instinct about what Melisandre wants to do are quite correct.

I don't think Mel could survive without the ruby at her throat.  It's focuses her power and it's connected to her heart but it has to be fed or her fire would go out.

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Jon IV

"Not me. I'm done with those bloody fools." Rattleshirt tapped the ruby on his wrist. "Ask your red witch, bastard."

Melisandre spoke softly in a strange tongue. The ruby at her throat throbbed slowly, and Jon saw that the smaller stone on Rattleshirt's wrist was brightening and darkening as well. "So long as he wears the gem he is bound to me, blood and soul," the red priestess said. "This man will serve you faithfully. The flames do not lie, Lord Snow."

Perhaps not, Jon thought, but you do.

.

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Melisandre I

Melisandre touched the ruby at her neck and spoke a word.

The sound echoed queerly from the corners of the room and twisted like a worm inside their ears. The wildling heard one word, the crow another. Neither was the word that left her lips. The ruby on the wildling's wrist darkened, and the wisps of light and shadow around him writhed and faded.

 

 Mance's ruby goes dark and Mel once again touches the ruby at her throat.   Having an affect on the word she speaks and how it is heard.

Once again, channelling the power of the Wall:

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Melisandre I

The carved chest that she had brought across the narrow sea was more than three-quarters empty now. And while Melisandre had the knowledge to make more powders, she lacked many rare ingredients. My spells should suffice. She was stronger at the Wall, stronger even than in Asshai. Her every word and gesture was more potent, and she could do things that she had never done before. Such shadows as I bring forth here will be terrible, and no creature of the dark will stand before them. With such sorceries at her command, she should soon have no more need of the feeble tricks of alchemists and pyromancers.

 

 

[LynnS]

Ah!  Mel isn't subconsciously touching her ruby, she is deliberately trying to influence Jon's decision with the power of her word.

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Jon I

"Castle Black needs no useless mouths," Jon agreed. "I am sending Gilly south on the next ship out of Eastwatch."

Melisandre touched the ruby at her neck. "Gilly is giving suck to Dalla's son as well as her own. It seems cruel of you to part our little prince from his milk brother, my lord."

Careful now, careful. "Mother's milk is all they share. Gilly's son is larger and more robust. He kicks the prince and pinches him, and shoves him from the breast. Craster was his father, a cruel man and greedy, and blood tells."

 

Boy is Mel slippery using guilt and cruelty to get Jon to reverse his decision.  However, Val is not fooled and she warns Jon.  She tells him to be careful!

[Fun Guy from Yuggoth]

11 minutes ago, LynnS said:

What keeps Melisandre going given her actual age? 

Weirwoods are immortal.  That is why Mel is ageless.

 

12 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Melisandre as metaphor doesn't actually tell me how she is using the rubies.  That's more or less what I'm after.  

It's seems there was some kind of feedback loop with Mance's ruby feeling heat on his wrist.  Likewise with Rattleshirt in the fire.  She seems to have barely missed burning up herself.  I've wondered how Melisandre sustains herself if fire consumes.

All objects made out of weirwood are still connected to the network and retain their magic properties.

 

14 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Moqorro says there are 1000 fiery hands of R'hllor and when one of them burns out, they are replaced.

In Carl Sagan's Comet, he talks about a theoretical red comet called Chiron, making a close approach to Earth:

Quote

(pg177) "A very dark comet, perhaps perceptibly red, hundreds of kilometers across, with multiple dust fountains and an immense tail, would be quite a spectacle as it passed by the Earth.  . . .

Imagine the sky dominated by a dull, red irregular object, spitting out white canopies, its shimmering, curved fountains flowing into space, and all the material eventually swept back into a vast tail that extends from horizon to horizon. It would be a memorable event. . . .

the comet would be seen by cultures all over the world.  Surely, there would be a mythological framework--sometimes called a world view--into which this apparition would be fitted.  People would naturally thin the display held some portent or significance for them.  Some cometary form would still be a dominant motif in the art and records of the previous generations.  . . . After a few thousand years pass, the cometary symbol, whatever it was, might be wholly disconnected from its bizarre and awesome origins.  In a prescientific, preliterate society, accounts of an unprecedented occurrence involving uncommon physics must necessarily, after thousands of years, take on lives of thier own."

Chiron means "hand" so if Chiron became a comet it would be the fiery red hand.  The religion of the Red Priests is comet worship, and they are all named after red comets and described like red comets and their temple is a huge red comet.  And their savior wields a flaming red sword that they have forgotten was actually a comet.

Sagan mentions a comet being turned into a mythological object, and its origins are forgotten.

 

Comets are ice and fire, and R'hllor worship is worshiping the fire aspect, and weirwood worship is worshiping the ice aspect, but it is two sides of the same coin.  When wood is burned it lives a second life as a fiery dancer.

[Fun Guy from Yuggoth]

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

Moqorro says there are 1000 fiery hands of R'hllor and when one of them burns out, they are replaced.  What keeps Melisandre going given her actual age? 

Thoros worries that bringing back Beric one more time would mean the end of both of them.  Something is consumed each time.  With Beric, it's his memory and I suspect with Thoros, it's his life force.

Mel is the character who uses the most magic.  In creating her shadow babies with Stannis, he is losing strength and vigor.  What does she lose?  What is she using up if it isn't her own life force?  What would that look like on the page?

 

 

The red priests are always burning something.  With Mel we know that includes human sacrifice including children if she can get them.  But why?

Gilly tells us infants stink of life.  They have the most life force.  The Others take them for that reason.

 Fire is always hungry!

 What is that nourishment?  The life force of others to replace what she uses up?

The ruby drinks in fire and light and has a heartbeat.

Weirwoods are powered by blood sacrifice, children are sacrificed to produce shadow swords/ White Walkers.

The business about drinking the light and having a heartbeat is very close the House of the Undying (weirwood cave) description, it drinks the light, and has a huge pulsing heart.

(In Dying of the Light, George has glowstones that drink the light and glow in the dark)

 

So Beric was playing out the role of the one-eyed Odin / Bloodraven / Greenseer, and Thoros is the weirwood.  Beric sits a weirwood throne in a weirwood cave and keeps dying, and the weirwood keeps "bringing him back" but less and less of him comes back each time, until he is completely a ghost.  I am not even sure if it is him that came back, but rather the weirwood impersonating him and animating his corpse with less and less accuracy each time.  And his steady decline is illustrating the weirwood sucking the life out of the greenseer, until there is only a shell left.

barrach means "top branches of trees" and his sigil is a branching lightning strike, and dondar means "thunder" and thor means "thunder" and Beric has a flaming sword.

 

Oh, I forgot, when Jon throws Mormont's lantern at the wight, Jon burns his hand, Jon becomes the fiery hand throwing Mormont's "torch", and the comet is called Mormont's Torch. 

 

And in gaelic railaigh means "oak tree" and realadh means "making bright" and the definition of realta mentions "morning star" and "comet" and "guiding star" and reilige means "grave, tomb" (Cthulhu lives in his tomb at R'yleh) and riaghlor means "ruler"

 

ETA: and I forgot to mention that weirwood leaves are hand-shaped and described as ablaze, and flaming--they are described in the same language as the 1,000 Fiery Hands of R'hllor.

[LynnS]

38 minutes ago, By Odin's Beard said:

The business about drinking the light and having a heartbeat is very close the House of the Undying (weirwood cave) description, it drinks the light, and has a huge pulsing heart.

She was in Asshai and I think Qaarth and the House of Undying are an outpost (or relic of Asshai) of the heart of darkness in Asshai.  I think that's what the blue heart represents.  There are no children there or anything that can grow or live off the land.  They are known for their gemstones.