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Watch, Watching, Watch -- Keep the change you filthy animal!


DireWolfSpirit

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8 hours ago, DMC said:

The last season really tapered off and the ending (really the last 4 or 5 episodes) was rather anticlimatic.  Plus what really stands out with that one is they entirely changed the ending midway through the last season after John Spencer died.

 

I actually think the opposite. I enjoy a good wind-down period for a long epic story, make things feel less abrupt, and while WW's is longer than most, I think it really works.
That story gets told about them changing the ending, but apparently it's not true and a script exists from well before with Santos winning- it appears to be one of those stories that got a bit twisted from where the plan always had been Santos winning but Vinnick was such a good character they considered even while filming earlier episodes changing it to him, but then decided against it.
But they would have had to majorly rewrite the last five episodes in any case whether they changed the winner or not.

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31 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

That story gets told about them changing the ending, but apparently it's not true and a script exists from well before with Santos winning- it appears to be one of those stories that got a bit twisted from where the plan always had been Santos winning but Vinnick was such a good character they considered even while filming earlier episodes changing it to him, but then decided against it.
But they would have had to majorly rewrite the last five episodes in any case whether they changed the winner or not.

Well, on whether Vinick was supposed to win or not, who knows.  Lawrence O'Donnell at first claimed Vinick was supposed to win, then changed his story.  Martin Sheen also said Vinick was supposed to win before Spencer's death.  Either way, I didn't specify that part because like you said Spencer's death entirely changed the ending regardless of whether Santos was always supposed to win or not.  Hell, the fifth to last episode was centered around Leo's funeral.

Anyway, I thought West Wing ended on a decided down note in quality, but it's true that had little to do with Spencer's death.

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11 hours ago, sifth said:
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Give me the episode in which The Man in Black tells us that he's Jacob's brother? What we know about the beast is, it can change form and steal memories. So he literally becomes anyone he turns into, just evil. So literally anything the guy says can be viewed as BS. Plus we see Jacob's brother get spit out of the light; I mean heck Jacob buried him next to his mother. So what did his soul get turn into the monster than; if so what episode was this ever explained in? Also on the subject of the smoke monster, why did he suddenly get trapped in his Locke form, aside from the obvious reason of wanting to keep Terry Quinn on the show? Because that too is something that never got answered.

Listen, if you have a mystery driven show, you should at least have answers to your mysteries is all I'm saying. I don't always hate the "what do you think it means" style of storytelling that Damon Lindelof used a dozen and a half times on lost, but I think most shows shouldn't create mysteries without at least some plan as to what the answer is. Heck a lot of the time, Lost would often answer a question with another question, which is not an answer.

 

 

I am a big fan of ambiguity in fiction but it isn't the best partner for a 'mystery-driven' show. However, I would argue that Lost was at least partly a character-driven show too as we spend so much time with the main characters, going back into their pasts to see who they really are (which is also important if they are candidates). I am halfway through a re-watch of the show (which I think is my fourth time through it). 

Definitely agree that it was one of the worst shows for not giving answers, but simply asking more questions, for most of the duration. 

Started watching School of Chocolate last night. As an educator and a team leader there are some really interesting examples of feedback, assessment, teamwork, self-evaluation etc on show. But also, if you just like seeing people make cool stuff out of chocolate then you should be happy. At least one of the students has a highly inflated sense of self. It reminded me a little of the very early days of Wife Swap on Channel Four where the men who were the most obnoxiously arrogant and outspoken at the outset were always the ones who ended up crying their eyes out about how useless they were after not very long. 'Live shamed and die empty', I cried right before this student got a wake up call. :) This is great distraction television.

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On the subject of shows dragging on too long and not landing the ending.. watched latest ep of Ozark. While it’s always entertaining and I do like it, it does feel like yet again another impossible task has been given to them which will lead to more of the same. There might be a limit on how far they can take this story 

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@Isis

I agree completely and to be honest, I often wonder if I'm a hypocrite for hating Lost so much, for it's unsolved mysteries, yet I love Twin Peaks, which is sort of like Lost on crack, when it comes to not explaining stuff. I think I just love David Lynch's writing so much and his style of making characters so dam likable, that allows me to over look this. His comedy is also some of my favorite.

@RumHam

Spoiler

I agree as well and think they were constantly changing, what the monster was each year, simply because they themselves couldn't make up their mind.

@DMC

Spoiler

I don't know, those lines are still too vague if you ask me, which is something they should have dropped by the third to last episode. The line should have been "you have to stop, my brother", and "I was the one who turned him into that that thing" or something along those lines. The way it stands, sure if you want to view it as his brother that's fine, but you can also view it a dozen different ways as well. I'm also a little annoyed that we're never told what the smoke monster is. Is he a demon? A force of pure evil? A corrupted soul? No real answer is given, it's just another "what do you think it is" type answers, that involves magic light, which is something also never explained to us.

 

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Been binging Lucifer; doesn’t require much concentration so I can have it on in the background while working from home. Most of the way through season 5.

Spoiler

God messing with Dan due to the latter sleeping with the former’s “ex-wife” was funny. “Be seeing you. Or maybe not.”

 

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9 hours ago, RumHam said:

The prequel Baby Driver is also very good. 

Wait a minute? That's the prequel!? I did see it loooong ago, found it great obv but...

Just googled, 

https://filmfrolic.wordpress.com/2017/08/01/baby_driver-wasnt-inspired-by-based-on-drive-7-similarities-between-both-films/

Plus Hispanic - nvm, I'm confused af. Unofficial preq or unintentional coincidence(s)? 

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OK finally got around to watching Venom Let there be *yawn* Carnaaaaige. Phew.

90 minutes was about all I could stomach. Hardy had fun. I didn't. Atleast not as much. Arguably better than the first though. Serkis wasn't at his best and lot of clichés. And like Carnage I had little patience for Shriek. Irritating faux accent or whatever drawly shit she was trying. 

Re post credits, So another crossover into the Meh-vel Shinematic Yooniverse. No surprises there. Not watched No way home yet, and as of now not going to in the near future. Hope they are waiting atleast till Spidey 4 Homeless Hopeless blah blah to cram Brock in. Or Venom 3.

And a fourth symbiote!? ( counting Riz's Riot) Mulligan's Toxin, pain in the ass puritan white knight or gone over the edge new villain? Who cares. 

Edit 

The animated Multiverse sequel better be as good as the first one. Lots of expectations 

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3 hours ago, sifth said:
Spoiler

I don't know, those lines are still too vague if you ask me, which is something they should have dropped by the third to last episode. The line should have been "you have to stop, my brother", and "I was the one who turned him into that that thing" or something along those lines. The way it stands, sure if you want to view it as his brother that's fine, but you can also view it a dozen different ways as well. I'm also a little annoyed that we're never told what the smoke monster is. Is he a demon? A force of pure evil? A corrupted soul? No real answer is given, it's just another "what do you think it is" type answers, that involves magic light, which is something also never explained to us.

 

Spoiler

Here is the full quote I was referencing:

Quote

JACOB: You call him "The Monster." But I'm responsible for what happened to him. I made him that way. And ever since then he's been trying to kill me. It was only a matter of time before he figured out how, and when he did, someone would have to replace me. And that's why I brought you all here.

Again, I'm not sure how more clear they can be that the monster is the man in black.  Especially because we are shown exactly how Jacob is "responsible" for him and "made him that way" in the previous episode.  If you don't like that answer or you want to speculate the smoke monster is something else that's fine.  But you really need to stop saying they didn't give an answer.

 

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1 hour ago, TheLastWolf said:

Wait a minute? That's the prequel!? I did see it loooong ago, found it great obv but...

Just googled, 

https://filmfrolic.wordpress.com/2017/08/01/baby_driver-wasnt-inspired-by-based-on-drive-7-similarities-between-both-films/

Plus Hispanic - nvm, I'm confused af. Unofficial preq or unintentional coincidence(s)? 

Haha, no only in my mind.

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39 minutes ago, DMC said:
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Here is the full quote I was referencing:

Again, I'm not sure how more clear they can be that the monster is the man in black.  Especially because we are shown exactly how Jacob is "responsible" for him and "made him that way" in the previous episode.  If you don't like that answer or you want to speculate the smoke monster is something else that's fine.  But you really need to stop saying they didn't give an answer.

 

That can mean many things.

Spoiler

For starters, it's clear as day, that the MIB is the monster. Never tried to refute that one for a second. However if it's actually Jacob's brother or simply taking his form some of the time is another issue; the thing is a shapeshifter after all. "I'm responsible for him" doesn't tell us anything clear about the creatures origins. For example Jacob throwing his brother into the "magical unkown light" could have simply pissed off the smoke monster royally for some reason. Maybe the monster always existed and by eating Jacob's brother soul, it was able to gain self awareness. Now if I was the writer of that episode and wanted to answer questions properly, I'd have Jacob throw his brother into the magic light, the light not spit out his brothers body and then have Jacob and his brother have a conversation after he turned into the monsters; possibly have him be scared that he suddenly feels cold and no longer human and have him blame Jacob for doing this to him. I wouldn't give half answers like "I'm responsible for him" and "this is all my fault".

Listen if you want to view it that way, that's fine. I'm just saying a clear answer is never given.

Also non of this explains what the monster is to begin with. A demon, a corrupted soul, the force of all the worlds evil or "what do you think it means", lol

 

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Finished Station Eleven, hard to stop watching it for both of us. Really very good, beautifully filmed and performed. I do think the first half was stronger than the second half, in some respects, but all in all well worth the time to watch. I've seen from reviews and commentary that the book and the TV show do differ quite a lot on details both minor and major, and some of the critiques seem sensible to me. But even if it is an inferior adaptation, it's still good television, which isn't something one can always say for inferior adaptations.

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19 minutes ago, sifth said:
Spoiler

Listen if you want to view it that way, that's fine. I'm just saying a clear answer is never given.

 

Spoiler

A clear answer is given.  You are complaining that the clear answer isn't sufficient or you conceive of the answer as more complex than what is given, but continually harping that "they didn't explain what the monster is" is simply inaccurate.

The conflict between Jacob and the MiB is hinted at as early as the second part of the pilot when Locke shows Walt how to play backgammon.  The black/white dichotomy is alluded to again when "Locke" takes Sawyer to the cave with all the candidates' names, and then is emphasized in Across the Sea when the twins are born - Jacob wrapped in white and the MiB wrapped in black.

 

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9 minutes ago, DMC said:
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A clear answer is given.  You are complaining that the clear answer isn't sufficient or you conceive of the answer as more complex than what is given, but continually harping that "they didn't explain what the monster is" is simply inaccurate.

The conflict between Jacob and the MiB is hinted at as early as the second part of the pilot when Locke shows Walt how to play backgammon.  The black/white dichotomy is alluded to again when "Locke" takes Sawyer to the cave with all the candidates' names, and then is emphasized in Across the Sea when the twins are born - Jacob wrapped in white and the MiB wrapped in black.

 

Sorry, but I don't agree. What you told me, very much is the definition of simply answering a question with another question. I told you how proper answers are given. Listen, if half answers are good for you, that's perfectly fine. Nothing wrong with using your imagination to fill in the blanks, but to me it just comes off as lazy and proof that they didn't have any idea what any of these mysteries were to begin with and were just put on the show to string people along for as long as they could. I mean, tell me what the monster is then? Not who, but what it is?

Spoiler

Also Locke and Walt playing with black and white rocks, does not foreshadow the MIB and Jacob in anyway. It simply tells us, that the writers of the show enjoyed the symbolism of good and evil or yin and yang. They liked it so much so, they made it the central theme of their final season.

 

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13 minutes ago, sifth said:

I told you how proper answers are given.

No, you told me how you wanted them to answer the question "properly."  An answer was given, you just find that answer insufficient, or unsatisfying, or not "proper," or whatever.  This has been my point the entire time.  The standard criticism of LOST is that it did not answers its mysteries, but in actuality such critics are saying they didn't find the answers the show provided satisfying.

As for what you proposed..

Spoiler

Personally I would have found what you suggested - a conversation between Jacob and the MiB after Jacob tries to kill him where the MiB clarifies exactly "what" he is - waayyyy too expositional.  Especially considering everything we're given already.  When we first meet Jacob and the MiB in the beginning of the Season 5 finale, the latter asks the former "do you have any idea how much I want to kill you?"

This is followed up in "Ab Aeterno" where the MiB implores Jacob to let him leave, Jacob refuses, then MiB confidently states he'll eventually kill Jacob and anyone he brings to replace him.  This is shortly after the MiB tells Richard:  

Quote

MAN IN BLACK: You aren't the only one who's lost something, my friend. The Devil betrayed me. He took my body. My humanity.

"The Devil" being Jacob.  We also have in "Ab Aeterno," of course, the conversation between Jacob and Richard where Jacob uses the wine and cork metaphor to explain the island:

Quote

JACOB: Think of this wine as what you keep calling hell. There's many other names for it too: malevolence, evil, darkness. And here it is, swirling around in the bottle, unable to get out because if it did, it would spread. The cork [he corks the bottle] is this island and it's the only thing keeping the darkness where it belongs. That man who sent you to kill me believes that everyone is corruptible because it's in their very nature to sin. I bring people here to prove him wrong. And when they get here, their past doesn't matter.

Again, perhaps you don't like these explanations, but it's (much) more than enough to say, objectively, they provided an answer as to what the smoke monster is.

 

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2 hours ago, DMC said:

No, you told me how you wanted them to answer the question "properly."  An answer was given, you just find that answer insufficient, or unsatisfying, or not "proper," or whatever.  This has been my point the entire time.  The standard criticism of LOST is that it did not answers its mysteries, but in actuality such critics are saying they didn't find the answers the show provided satisfying.

As for what you proposed..

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Personally I would have found what you suggested - a conversation between Jacob and the MiB after Jacob tries to kill him where the MiB clarifies exactly "what" he is - waayyyy too expositional.  Especially considering everything we're given already.  When we first meet Jacob and the MiB in the beginning of the Season 5 finale, the latter asks the former "do you have any idea how much I want to kill you?"

This is followed up in "Ab Aeterno" where the MiB implores Jacob to let him leave, Jacob refuses, then MiB confidently states he'll eventually kill Jacob and anyone he brings to replace him.  This is shortly after the MiB tells Richard:  

"The Devil" being Jacob.  We also have in "Ab Aeterno," of course, the conversation between Jacob and Richard where Jacob uses the wine and cork metaphor to explain the island:

Again, perhaps you don't like these explanations, but it's (much) more than enough to say, objectively, they provided an answer as to what the smoke monster is.

 

They used half answers and riddles to explain things on that show. That's literally all I got from what you just posted. Listen, if they were good enough for you, that's fine. Me, I expected better. I'm not a huge fan of the whole "we'll give you part of the answer and you think up the rest" style of storytelling. That's just me though, I just don't like people pretending they completely and clearly explained what everything was on Lost, because they very much didn't. They gave you part of the answer and made the audience think up the rest.

I sort of feel like we're just going around in circles at this point. I'm glad you enjoyed the show, but with the exception of Twin Peaks, I usually enjoy more detailed and clear answers from mystery shows, when the time comes for a reveal, not half answers and riddles. At the end of the day the show just wasn't for me.

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4 minutes ago, sifth said:

They used half answers and riddles to explain things on that show.

When it comes to the "what is the smoke monster" mystery, this just clearly isn't the case as I've cited.  Indeed, if the show explained it any more thoroughly than they already did throughout the final season I'd think it'd be spoon-feeding it to the audience.  So, yeah, I guess it's just a difference in taste.

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1 hour ago, BigFatCoward said:

Fucking well pissed off with all the positive reviews for Station 11. I refuse to pay extra for it. But I'm going to reread it. 

I may have to re-view it to figure out why it's getting such good reviews.

All I can recall is waiting, waiting, for it to get into some meat of the matter, and then it was over.

Still not sure what I saw.

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