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Arcane - Best SFF series 2021


Arakan
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1 hour ago, Ran said:

@Fez

I do think there's something to the idea that this stylization is more a European thing. (Mielgo is Spanish, BTW.) I do think that part of what may be happening out of these European animators is that they don't have the size and resources of the huge animation studios in the US, and so they've taken an approach that blends 2D and 3D more explicitly in part because of cost-savings but also just for the aesthetic. Arkane and Fortiche and Mielgo and others are all exploring Non-Photorealistic Rendering techniques, basically.

If one were to maintain movie studio type quality, which Arcane certainly does, 2D is quite expensive. More artists, more time intensive. 3D lends itself to a lot of really dynamic action however, some of the action sequences in Arcane would've had twentyfive to thirty, perhaps more, 2D animators working on them, from leads and keys to inbetweeners, final pencils, etc. And most of them would've been pulling their hair out, especially if the character and fx directors wanted reworks. 3D is much friendlier in that respect, and while toon shading isn't new either [it's been around in some shape and form for the fifteen to twentyish years] but as you say, and imo, the aesthetic is much more engaging. Hyper realistic CG isn't for me unless it's a component of a live action production.

Most of it comes down to the direction, like look WWII for instance. Wonder Woman didn't have any weight in the last film, and it cheapened the effects. Bad direction.

Pretty sure I commented in the Watched thread on the stylistic similarities between Arcane and Into the Spiderverse, because I love it and can't wait to see what further styles and productions are developed. It's rare when I get to opine from my former bailiwick lol

Off the top of my head The Hedge Knight, The Chronicles of Amber, Baru Comorant, and Gideon the Ninth stories would be fantastic properties to develop in this type of style.

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Arcane itself isn't deep, but I loved it. Engaging characters, emotive dynamics with few simple, pat individuals and outcomes. Very much looking forward to S2.

    

Edited by JEORDHl
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11 minutes ago, Ran said:

My take on it was that Silco's relationship with Jinx was not sexual from his side, but that Jinx acted out and vamped due to confused attempts at intimacy which Silco accepted (though with what read like a discomfort on his part) so as to continue to be able to depend on her and manipulate her to do what he wanted.

Why this sexualized approach to intimacy from her? Where did she get the idea? I think it's obvious enough that in winning her over after Vi goes to prison, Silco probably did not set much in the way of boundaries and let her feel like she was in a symbiotic relationship. Powder's very high-strung and dependent behavior would have been deliberately focused entirely on him, leading to unhealthy developments. 

Yeah, that was my impression too. There were a couple fakeouts from Silco, like it almost seeming he was about to kiss her before "baptizing" her in the river. But he didn't, and there was never any real hint that he thought about or acted towards her in that way.

There were lots of little hints throughout that he genuinely cared about, like the ashtray and mug on his desk that were clearly made by her. Plus the whole ending of course. But clearly he didn't know how to actually be a parent and it led to Jinx developing some bad habits and behaviors.

Overall, I think Silco ended up being the most interesting, and best developed character in the show. He's also the most unique, least trope-y of the bunch (not that I minded the tropes, I liked a lot of the characters). The only character from other media that springs immediately to mind as similar is the Mayor from Season 3 of Buffy, and in fact the Mayor-Faith relationship has a bunch of similarities to the Silco-Jinx relationship. But Silco has the added level of not just being bad for the sake of power, and he had laudable (in the abstract) goals that he wanted to achieve.

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2 hours ago, Fez said:

Overall, I think Silco ended up being the most interesting, and best developed character in the show. He's also the most unique, least trope-y of the bunch (not that I minded the tropes, I liked a lot of the characters). The only character from other media that springs immediately to mind as similar is the Mayor from Season 3 of Buffy, and in fact the Mayor-Faith relationship has a bunch of similarities to the Silco-Jinx relationship. But Silco has the added level of not just being bad for the sake of power, and he had laudable (in the abstract) goals that he wanted to achieve.

I agree with this. Silco ended up being the one legitimately interesting character in a cast of what felt like your typical array of video game characters.

I think anyone trying to argue that this show has an intricate take on social issues has their work cut out for them. It was an entertaining, style over substance show that was well directed. This isn't Mad Men.

Edited by IFR
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Excellent comparison to the Mayor and Faith. Yeah. 

If Jinx is drawing from the Batman universe, the "industrialist" Silco is a twisted Bruce Wayne-meets-Ra's al Ghul if Ra's was more a class warfare guy than an environmentalist.

@Jeordhi

Interesting. My understanding had been that doing 2D backdrops can speed up the process compared to building and texturing the environments in 3D in detail. 

Edited by Ran
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22 minutes ago, Ran said:

 

@Jeordhi

Interesting. My understanding had been that doing 2D backdrops can speed up the process compared to building and texturing the environments in 3D in detail. 

Certainly, but it really depends what you're trying to do. Like, instead of having your 2D BG artists setting up for every distinct shot with varying degrees of distance, camera pans, etc [don't get me started on classically animated BGs, which Japanimation is big on] you only have to move the camera within the mapped out environment. It's like having a built set, right, more upfront but now it's done, considerably more versatile, and can be used multiple times at any sequential framing you want.

I would be somewhat surprised if a lot of those classically illustrated and painted BGs from Arcane weren't also mapped out in 3D for this very purpose.

Edited by JEORDHl
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3 hours ago, Arakan said:

If it makes people think about stuff and question things, it achieved its goal. Again, we always have to take into consideration that this isn’t supposed to be a small indie production or niche product but the target audience is the global mainstream. 

I had to go to the Literature forum and confirm you were the same person, but how do you square this position, and your mentioning "way too high benchmarks" with your take on the WoT thread there? If you'd posted both anonymously, I'd believe they were from different people given the starkly contrasting perspectives.

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4 minutes ago, JEORDHl said:

 

I would be somewhat surprised if a lot of those classically illustrated and painted BGs from Arcane weren't also mapped out in 3D for this very purpose.

That's true. Pretty sure they did the same with "The Witness", where all backdrops and such were hand-painted but they must have roughed out the 3D design to apply lighting and reflection effects.

Regardless of just what these crazy Euros are doing, it's very impressive and I think a real way forward towards getting high-quality animation paired to compelling stories.

Malazan's another that would look incredible in this sort of approach.

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1 hour ago, Arakan said:

And finally: your benchmark for a mainstream series is way too high. You say Arcane isn’t bold but compared to what?

Well, Arcane is on the level of stuff like Korra or Naruto. Not bad if your target audience is kids or young teenagers, but not particularly groundbreaking, and certainly not bold. Any half-decent shônen that deals with politics and/or inequality will probably be at least on that level.

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@Rippounet - Korra is an excellent comparison, IMO in terms of being a bit more complex in terms of themes but not being super complex. Especially the first season's villain, though S3 is also up there. 

That said, I think that the characterization is a bit better than being simple themes compared to the political or sociological storyline. There are no real one-note villains or heroes, there's lots of grey, and even horrific actions come from entirely understandable sources. No, this ain't the Wire, but it's definitely a step above things like MCU or Young Justice or even Invincible. 

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14 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

I had to go to the Literature forum and confirm you were the same person, but how do you square this position, and your mentioning "way too high benchmarks" with your take on the WoT thread there? If you'd posted both anonymously, I'd believe they were from different people given the starkly contrasting perspectives.

In a Movie World dominated by Fast Food Marvel Movies and their glorification of fascistic empowerment Fetish fantasies or Fast and Furious, every Arcane is good. Or every Squid Game. In terms of reading maybe my benchmark is just higher ;)? YMMV

A character like Marcus is fantastic! Starts out as the typical fascho bully cop but in the end is so much More. That’s tragedy. Drama. That’s De Palma „Bad Lieutenant“ level. What a fucking performance. And it’s „just“ animation. That’s Scorcese level. Coen Brothers. The Wire, Breaking Bad. Name it. 

And in contrast to all the above, Arcane has a reach. Mainstream. Context people, all about context. 

 

Edited by Arakan
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16 hours ago, Ran said:

This is not The Wire of animated social commentary. 

Well, that would be the gold standard, but keep in mind that it took The Wire a few seasons to become "The Wire of social commentary."  The first season was a somewhat straightforward "cops vs. criminals in the inner city" story. Also, The Wire's impact had a lot to do with a gritty realism that you can't get with an animated fantasy series. By definition. 

As I commented in the "watching" thread, I loved this series. Gorgeous animation ('90's Disney with a mix of Bluth Studios and Nelvana) Compelling characters and some real emotional gut punches that didn't feel forced or cheesy. I also loved the steampunk aesthetic, which seemed "just right". Great production design. Not overdone. Zaun seemed more Art Nouveau and Piltover more Art Deco. I might seeing things but I though that was a nice touch. 

I also commented there that they used an Alphonse Mucha painting in the under-city landscape. It's derived from his commercial work (a JOB rolling papers advert).  What I didn't know is that Mucha had a bunch of non-commercial work, specifically his Slav Epic, which was a collection of massive canvasses he did for an American client. Maybe I'm crazy, but if I squint a little bit, I think there's some inspiration from those works on the aesthetic of the series. I wouldn't be shocked if that was the case.  

Best SFF series 2021? If I had to choose between this and Squid Game that'd be tough. I'm not sure on that one.

As far as animated series go I'd say, "definitely". With all due respect to Love Death + Robots, that's a different animal. A short film anthology isn't a series. There is room in my heart for both.

Arcane certainly scratches an itch for me that The Bad Batch didn't. Not to dump on that show but I found it a bit boring and a bit repetitive. I didn't even finish the season. Between that and the last season of The Mandalorian, I'm done with Star Wars.

I haven't seen What If? or SW: Visions, but I doubt they're as good.

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12 hours ago, Rippounet said:

Well, Arcane is on the level of stuff like Korra or Naruto. Not bad if your target audience is kids or young teenagers, but not particularly groundbreaking, and certainly not bold. Any half-decent shônen that deals with politics and/or inequality will probably be at least on that level.

Naruto??? Sorry we disagree. It’s easily FMA Brotherhood level in terms of shades of grey. Easily. Let’s be fair. Naruto, come on…

Quote

Any half-decent shônen that deals with politics and/or inequality will probably be at least on that level.

I presume you will know more Anime but I know enough from NGE to Elfenlied to 97 Berserk and so I can easily disagree because it’s simply not true. The difference between let’s say AOT and Arcane is that the power dynamics are much more subtle and thus feel more real in the latter. 

Lets put it this way: to make a show about Nazis=Bad is easy. To make a show though where Nazism is still portrayed as evil yet Nazis are still humans, and not all are psychopaths/sociopaths and the incarnation of Sauron because that’s not how Totalitarism or just even dictatorship/tyranny works (see Hannah Arendt), that’s a different beast. 

 

Edited by Arakan
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Look we should all be happy that Arcane is as good as it is. It’s a video game adaptation and it’s on Netflix! Those would be huge red flags normally. 
 

That there is any level of moral complexity or social commentary is a borderline miracle as it is, but I don’t think it’s helpful to start acting like Arcane is a deep reading of society or making exaggerated claims of its greatness. 
 

That kind of thing will only make me start to dislike a show I was enjoying! So why don’t we all just agree it’s very good, much better than it should have been and leave it there!

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17 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

That kind of thing will only make me start to dislike a show I was enjoying! So why don’t we all just agree it’s very good, much better than it should have been and leave it there!

Ok, agreed ;). I expected nothing or something like Masters of the Universe Level. So I might be a bit over-enthusiastic right now ;)  

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On 12/18/2021 at 9:20 AM, Arakan said:

Naruto??? Sorry we disagree. It’s easily FMA Brotherhood level in terms of shades of grey. Easily. Let’s be fair. Naruto, come on...

Have you actually read Naruto or just checked a wiki and seen three episodes with your little cousin ? ;)

FMA is a significantly better show imo. Nonetheless, if we're talking about the political angle only, Naruto happens to be superior to FMA. And the politics of Naruto and Arcane have quite a few common points. Of course, Naruto's politics take place over dozens of books so they're not necessarily that obvious at a glance.

On 12/18/2021 at 9:20 AM, Arakan said:

I presume you will know more Anime but I know enough from NGE to Elfenlied to 97 Berserk and so I can easily disagree because it’s simply not true.

None of these animes/mangas really seek to develop a political angle. 

On 12/18/2021 at 9:20 AM, Arakan said:

The difference between let’s say AOT and Arcane is that the power dynamics are much more subtle and thus feel more real in the latter. 

I wouldn't even try to compare the politics of these two shows. AOT's politics serve specific and limited purposes. As a matter of fact, I'd say Arcane's politics are probably better. 

On the overall story however, AOT is in a totally different league. It's so much more ambitious that it's ridiculous to even mention it here. It's a bit like trying to compare ASOIAF and Harry Potter. 

On 12/18/2021 at 9:20 AM, Arakan said:

Lets put it this way: to make a show about Nazis=Bad is easy. To make a show though where Nazism is still portrayed as evil yet Nazis are still humans, and not all are psychopaths/sociopaths and the incarnation of Sauron because that’s not how Totalitarism or just even dictatorship/tyranny works (see Hannah Arendt), that’s a different beast. 

That's... precisely one of the things that AOT does.

Edited by Rippounet
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Just finished watching this show. OTOH, I found it very entertaining, and it certainly became absorbing after the end of the third episode. 

On the downside, while I enjoyed the city and costume design, I thought the character design was rather irritating. Take Jayce, for example, a researcher-politician whose hobbies apparently include steroid abuse, body building and close combat training. The two overweight characters introduced at the start (one of whom is used for comic relief because fat is funny; we're five hundred years on from Friar Tuck but that stuff is still cutting edge, apparently) were shockingly killed off to provide some more tragic background material to the leads, all of whom are stunningly beautiful. 

I liked Silco and wonder what S2 will do for a principal antagonist now he's out of the picture. Jinx seems too bananas to present a coherent threat - she's too much a "pretty things go boom" kind of danger. 

It made for enjoyable binge-watching, though it did feel as if plot, characters, etc. were in service to the video game aesthetic rather than the other way round. 

Edited by dog-days
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Jayce's fighting ability was cliche and unmotivated, I admit, when going up against the Shimmer-boosted thugs who were shown to be super fast and super strong, but I didn't mind the muscles since I'm willing to suspend disbelief that he spent a lot more  time than we were shown working metals as a smith/craftsman.

Next season big bad, I'm thinking Mel Medarda's mother is going to make a move to forcibly "bring order" after some/most of the Council gets wiped out, but really just a way to stretch the power of her house and Noxus. And presumably there's going to be a power struggle in the Undercity with Silco's death.

 

 

Edited by Ran
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