Arcane - Best SFF series 2021

[dog-days]

32 minutes ago, Ran said:

Jayce's fighting ability was cliche and unmotivated, I admit, when going up against the Shimmer-boosted thugs who were shown to be super fast and super strong, but I didn't mind the muscles since I'm willing to suspend disbelief that he spent a lot more  time than we were shown working metals as a smith/craftsman.

Next season big band, I'm thinking Mel Medarda's mother is going to make a move to forcibly "bring order" after some/most of the Council gets wiped out, but really just a way to stretch the power of her house and Noxus. And presumably there's going to be a power struggle in the Undercity with Silco's death.

 

 

Not sure even regular manual work at a forge would result in a physique like that. For example, here's a photo of an actual blacksmith, plus one of a miner. TBH, it's not really the likelihood I object to - I don't expect or want my entertainment to present me with things that are probable. It's more of a general sense of misgiving about the way shows/games can warp the perspective of the audience about what the human body should look like. 

Yes, I agree re Ambassador Medarda. The political manoeuvring could be interesting to watch. 

I know some people in this thread thought Heimerdinger was out-of-place,  but I appreciated him. I enjoyed his long perspective on events - hopefully we'll see a bit more of that in S2. 

[Ran]

Like I said, it's suspension of disbelief. It's a setting with heroic-scale body types, not that of mere mortals. Jayce is apparently literally one of the LoL champion characters, so no surprise (in fact, I found a webpage noting the depiction of him in Arcane is toned-down in size and musclarity, and then provides a workout to get his physique... !)

[Fez]

2 hours ago, dog-days said:

Just finished watching this show. OTOH, I found it very entertaining, and it certainly became absorbing after the end of the third episode. 

On the downside, while I enjoyed the city and costume design, I thought the character design was rather irritating. Take Jayce, for example, a researcher-politician whose hobbies apparently include steroid abuse, body building and close combat training. The two overweight characters introduced at the start (one of whom is used for 

I liked Silco and wonder what S2 will do for a principal antagonist now he's out of the picture. Jinx seems too bananas to present a coherent threat - she's too much a "pretty things go boom" kind of danger. 

I think it depends on what extent they want S2 to introduce more of the wider Runeterra world, versus keeping more focused on Piltover specifically. If it's the former I could see the big bad starting out as Mel's mother, but ending up being someone else from Noxus (probably the guy her mother warned her about). In the lore Noxus hyper-expansionist, so an invasion storyline would make a lot of sense.

OTOH, if it's the later, Mel's mother could certainly play a role, but the big bad might end up being Singed or his experiments (for such a small role, it was interesting that he got a shot during the final montage of characters). Or, assuming they survived the ending, it could be either Jayce or Viktor (Jayce in tyrant mode, Viktor in a "taken over by sentient hextech" mode). 

[Ran]

22 minutes ago, Fez said:

it was interesting that he got a shot during the final montage of characters

Speaking of that final shot, he seemed to be healing some sort of werewolf-looking guy. Wondered what that was about.

[Fez]

38 minutes ago, Ran said:

Speaking of that final shot, he seemed to be healing some sort of werewolf-looking guy. Wondered what that was about.

Lot of LoL lore-knowledge folks think that might be Warwick, a sort of wererat champion from the game. And speculation/spoiler

Spoiler

There is a bunch circumstantial evidence Warwick may have been created from Vander's body. Bearing in mind that Arcane and existing League lore don't always match 1-to-1:

Vander himself is a new Arcane character; but dialog in League suggests that Warwick knew both Jinx and Vi when they were kids, that he possibly was the one who taught Vi how to punch, and his bio describes him as "a gangster who abandoned his former life to try be a 'good man'," who was captured by Singed and experimented on.

 

[Ran]

That makes much sense, including the spoiler bit.

They've done a really good job with that, tying this stuff to lore even with adjustments.

[IFR]

On 12/18/2021 at 1:07 AM, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said:

Well, that would be the gold standard, but keep in mind that it took The Wire a few seasons to become "The Wire of social commentary."  The first season was a somewhat straightforward "cops vs. criminals in the inner city" story.

I don't agree with this. In season one The Wire was intelligently exploring the dysfunctions of social systems in great depth. It just happened to be focused on the legal system in the first season. It expanded that intelligent exegesis to other systems of dysfunction with each successive season.  Every part fit together beautifully at the end, and the show did as you say become the gold standard of social commentary in fiction.

I think Rippounet and the poster formerly known as Kalbear put it rather well. The focus of this show is pretty animation and some good action sequences. The show takes care to develop its characters to lend all of this more impact. It's not being lazy about social commentary, but social commentary certainly isn't the thrust of this series, and the show doesn't really have anything original or deep to say. It's not that kind of show.

And it really doesn't have to be. I think it should be praised for what it does do. Making a series based on LoL sounds like the dumbest idea ever, but against all odds the Arcane crew made it work pretty well.

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

4 hours ago, IFR said:

I don't agree with this. In season one The Wire was intelligently exploring the dysfunctions of social systems in great depth. It just happened to be focused on the legal system in the first season. It expanded that intelligent exegesis to other systems of dysfunction with each successive season.  Every part fit together beautifully at the end, and the show did as you say become the gold standard of social commentary in fiction.

I'm not saying it wasn't there at all in the first season. The social dynamics and hierarchies at street level and within the drug trade were especially interesting. I'm just saying it's a bit soon. If it falls short of that (which it will), that's fine. 

4 hours ago, IFR said:

I think Rippounet and the poster formerly known as Kalbear put it rather well. The focus of this show is pretty animation and some good action sequences. The show takes care to develop its characters to lend all of this more impact. It's not being lazy about social commentary, but social commentary certainly isn't the thrust of this series, and the show doesn't really have anything original or deep to say. It's not that kind of show.

 Having great visuals ain't no sin. It is a visual medium after all.

For me, the difference between this and other action/SFF oriented stuff (eg. the MCU) is that I can re-watch this and not just surf the action or comedy bits. The dynamic between VI and Jinx and Silco is especially well done. The world building is great and yeah, there's some political economy thrown in as well. And it's able to do this while keeping a tight focus on character and story, something The Wire was also especially good at. Bring on the second season. 

[karaddin]

I'm not sure I understand the objection about the fat characters being jokes, although them being killed off is certainly fair.

I'm assuming the two in question are Claggor and Ekko's Dad? I thought Claggor was portrayed as competent and confident, but not cocky, with his relationship with Ekko being another nice little touch. I thought it was quite in contrast to Mylo who was cocky as hell, but clearly not as good at... Well anything other than I guess picking locks, and who I'd say was a comic relief joke character. I guess I'm probably forgetting a scene that made a joke out of his appetite or something like that?

I just thought he was actually a pretty good character that was the healthiest and most balanced of the four of them.

Ekko's Dad was also a positive portrayal as the natural second in command to Vander, but that runs into the obvious problem of being killed off.

[Arakan]

16 hours ago, IFR said:

I don't agree with this. In season one The Wire was intelligently exploring the dysfunctions of social systems in great depth. It just happened to be focused on the legal system in the first season. It expanded that intelligent exegesis to other systems of dysfunction with each successive season.  Every part fit together beautifully at the end, and the show did as you say become the gold standard of social commentary in fiction.

I think Rippounet and the poster formerly known as Kalbear put it rather well. The focus of this show is pretty animation and some good action sequences. The show takes care to develop its characters to lend all of this more impact. It's not being lazy about social commentary, but social commentary certainly isn't the thrust of this series, and the show doesn't really have anything original or deep to say. It's not that kind of show.

And it really doesn't have to be. I think it should be praised for what it does do. Making a series based on LoL sounds like the dumbest idea ever, but against all odds the Arcane crew made it work pretty well.

Ok one time more. The Wire as Benchmark regarding socio-political and socio-economic commentary for Arcane is ludicrous. Of course the latter will fall short compared to the former. That’s not the point. 

The point is: Arcane is, by all accounts an absolute global smash hit, with a global mainstream appeal far outreaching the likes of The Wire, which itself is a great show but ultra-niche. The correct Benchmark for Arcane should thus be the MCU, DCEU or Star Wars. Sometimes I feel this Forum is such a bubble that you don’t even realize the magnitude of cultural indoctrination these latter shows had and have. That kind of vigilante power Fantasy with characters larger than life, more than mere mortals (in the MCU literally). That’s the reason why I can’t stomach Hawkeye anymore. No wonder you get these self-righteous Rittenhouse types. 

And Arcane, together with another global smash hit (Squid Game) is finally changing the tone and direction. Others tried (Falcon) but got afraid of their own Courage and literally ended up typical centrist-Style in a „let’s all just talk about it and then we find a Solution“ Situation. 

[Heartofice]

Well Squid game didn’t accomplish what it promised in terms of social commentary. The first few episodes seemed to show that the writers were making a Parasite comment on inequality. But as the show went on that fell to the way side and the VIPs demonstrated that the show only had a very cartoonish view on the topic. 
 

I don’t see it, or Arcane, as doing anything really different to the MCU, which tries where it can to tick as many politically correct boxes as it can and appear to be subversive, whilst really just taking zero chances on almost every level. 

[Arakan]

2 hours ago, Heartofice said:

Well Squid game didn’t accomplish what it promised in terms of social commentary. The first few episodes seemed to show that the writers were making a Parasite comment on inequality. But as the show went on that fell to the way side and the VIPs demonstrated that the show only had a very cartoonish view on the topic. 
 

I don’t see it, or Arcane, as doing anything really different to the MCU, which tries where it can to tick as many politically correct boxes as it can and appear to be subversive, whilst really just taking zero chances on almost every level. 

Let’s agree to vehemently disagree . The MCU is in the end a superhero power fantasy, a wish fulfillment. Spiced up with „righteous“, in its core fascistic vigilantism. The only risk they could undertake would be deconstructing that whole superhero business as bullshit, against the rule of law. They tried it somehow with CA Civil War but the sympathies were clearly on the side of the „righteous“ CA. 

Squid Game or Arcane have no fundamental differences do question the socio-hierarchical status quo, based on predatory capitalism. That’s obvious. 

[Rippounet]

7 hours ago, Arakan said:

The correct Benchmark for Arcane should thus be the MCU, DCEU or Star Wars.

That's fair.

7 hours ago, Arakan said:

The correct Benchmark for Arcane should thus be the MCU, DCEU or Star Wars. Sometimes I feel this Forum is such a bubble that you don’t even realize the magnitude of cultural indoctrination these latter shows had and have. That kind of vigilante power Fantasy with characters larger than life, more than mere mortals (in the MCU literally). That’s the reason why I can’t stomach Hawkeye anymore. No wonder you get these self-righteous Rittenhouse types.

Are you absolutely certain that Arcane doesn't actually have a comparable subtext? You know, Jayce, the young prodigy become councilor, who picks up a warhammer to sort out the undercity?

Edit:

2 minutes ago, Fez said:

Not to fully wade into this debate, but Jayce did kill a kid, feel huge guilt, abandon Vi, and decide to work with the normal (i.e. the council) channels afterwards. It's not a fully embrace of the vigilante approach.

Yes, and to be fair, that was a great moment.
Jayce still feels a bit too much like a Gary Stu to me (seriously, the man's almost flawless), but it's true that this twist was welcome, as it almost took the focus away from individuals and back to an institutional/collective framework to solve issues. Almost.
Almost, because, of course, that's not going to work.

7 hours ago, Arakan said:

And Arcane, together with another global smash hit (Squid Game) is finally changing the tone and direction.

It feels like raining on your parade, but your problem is that you lack perspective.

The concept of the "undercity" in fiction is something I'd date back to at least Victorian England. You find it a bit everywhere. HG Wells' The Time Machine (1895), Brambilla's Demolition Man (1993), Blomkamp's Elysium (2013), and or course, Coruscant in StarWars (which was developed in various ways), to name a few. My personal references would be the manga Gunnm, better known as Battle Angel Alita, Futurama, and the skirmish tabletop war game Necromunda, set in Games Workshop's Warhammer 40,000 universe.

Similarly, I did love Squid Game, but I also saw Battle Royale (with Kitano) twenty years ago.

 

 

Edited December 20, 2021 by Rippounet

[Heartofice]

Have to agree, the idea of an undercity full of the poor downtrodden looking up at the rich advanced ‘cloud city’ full of ignorant wealthy elites is maybe the most over played trope in science fiction! It’s literally everywhere. 
 

It’s really the most obvious visual example of how to demonstrate social inequality which is why it is used to often! I’d be more interested if they reversed it, with poor people living in the cloud city, being burnt by global warming while the elites live underground in dark shelters!

[Fez]

1 hour ago, Rippounet said:

Are you absolutely certain that Arcane doesn't actually have a comparable subtext? You know, Jayce, the young prodigy become councilor, who picks up a warhammer to sort out the undercity?

Not to fully wade into this debate, but Jayce did kill a kid, feel huge guilt, abandon Vi, and decide to work with the normal (i.e. the council) channels afterwards. It's not a fully embrace of the vigilante approach.

[Ran]

5 minutes ago, Fez said:

Not to fully wade into this debate, but Jayce did kill a kid, feel huge guilt, abandon Vi, and decide to work with the normal (i.e. the council) channels afterwards. It's not a fully embrace of the vigilante approach.

Yep. It was cliche for him to go out there personally, and be able to do anything useful, but it was clearly treated by him as a mistake. The offer to Silco and then the vote that Jinx interrupts was genuinely an interesting turn, since it was an attempt to break the cycle of oppression in a permanent way that would have likely introduced new problems. 

Who knows what happens now, with that ending. 

[Rippounet]

10 minutes ago, Ran said:

The offer to Silco and then the vote that Jinx interrupts was genuinely an interesting turn, since it was an attempt to break the cycle of oppression in a permanent way that would have likely introduced new problems.

Absolutely.

To be fair, they toyed with something original and interesting there. If Silco had become the leader of an independent Zaun (and proved half-competent), that would have been borderline subversive.

[Fez]

54 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

Absolutely.

To be fair, they toyed with something original and interesting there. If Silco had become the leader of an independent Zaun (and proved half-competent), that would have been borderline subversive.

One of my guesses for season 2 is that Sevika picks up where Silco left off in that plotline. I'd rather Silco stayed around, but I suppose the writers felt he needed to die to complete Jinx's character arc for the season. Also, since Sevika and Jinx are not on good terms, it would add yet another dimension to the Zaun conflict and the various goals that characters are pursing there.

I do think something will happen though. It's worth noting that while Silco always called it "Zaun", everyone else just said "the undercity." But most coverage of the show calls it "Zaun" because that's what it's always been referred to in other LoL-related media. Since Arcane is in many ways an origin story (at least for Vi/Cait/Jinx/Jayce; though it would be great if they threw a curveball and Jayce is dead now), I take this to mean that the status of Zaun/the undercity is different now from where it ends up.

[Ran]

Interesting interview with one of the team at Fortiche that made Arcane, going into detail about how and why they managed as they did, including various steps they took that sped up the process of animating it (e.g. real time rigging of characters, reusing shots with lighting and atmosphere changes so they weren't obvious):

 

[Rippounet]

Ha, fortiche is slang for outstanding/brilliant/ace. It's generally said of people with exceptional technical skills ("fort" means "strong," but not just physical strength).
Very adequate.