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Lord Varys and the Wheel of Time (second attempt) #2


Lord Varys

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1 hour ago, Gertrude said:

Speaking of ta'veren, I've seen an argument come up a lot recently with the show changes. Now that Egwene is also a ta'veren, that diminishes her accomplishments. I call bullshit on this, obviously. No one thinks Rand or Mat or Perrin are less accomplished or less bad-ass because of their ta'veren nature. It's just being used now because it wasn't like that in the books and I suspect it upsets the balance of the boys being the center of the story, even though it really is kind of Rand and Egwene as the big movers and shakers and the power players here.

Just curious to hear thoughts about this.

I'd actually say that in the books I know so far Egwene/Nynaeve would make more sense as ta'veren than Mat and Perrin - who are jokes insofar as their motivations, interests, and character is concerned.

These two, on the other hand, have a very unusual magical potential as well as the ability to develop it quickly. They do catch the attention and interest of important people - various Aes Sedai, Elayne Trakand and her brothers, a deposed king in Nynaeve's case.

And for some stupid reason the Amyrlin Seat herself thinks it is a good idea to give important tasks to these women - which no sane person would even consider, so 'the Pattern' brainwashing Siuan would actually make some sense there.

Egwene's later story of becoming Amyrlin herself would also fit very well with her being ta'veren ... whereas Perrin's career seems to be a kind of a joke for a ta'veren, the same with Mat whose super abilities have nothing to do with the Pattern and everything with the transdimensional plot devices. If Mat had gone to Seanchean to become emperor there he might make sense as ta'veren - especially if he were to found a new dynasty, completely unrelated Hawkwing's brats.

So far neither Perrin nor Mat have a goal in life - and neither does Rand, aside from taking weirdo baby steps towards the Last Battle. He should actually make a plan.

Continuing the shit show:

Can't say that the girls look any more competent in Tanchico. They basically sit at their place, drink a lot tea, and allow Moghedien to brainwash them. The Jordanesque ideal that the woman rules over the domestic sphere is reinforced again when they just get reports from Hurin 2.0 and Thom. The same with the whole Aiel thing where the women rule the house. They are all just glorified housewives.

And a laughed my ass off when the girls couldn't use the One Power to defend themselves in the streets because that might get them noticed. So what? Channelers do exist in this world and people know this. This is akin to a guy with a sword or a gun not using it in public because other people might feel provoked ... but then, perhaps you just intimidate them into compliance?

So far the boys never kept their arms away because this might provoke hostilities - and Rand routinely swings his magical swords to awe folks into submission. Nobody ever said the Dragon shouldn't show off his powers less somebody guts him like Jon Snow when he looks the other way.

Also - that Aviendha thing makes me retch. I didn't think it could get more insulting or infantile but it does. Now we enter into 'unintentional courtship because you don't understand the customs' territory - which is nearly always silly. Also, we have another romance where one or both parties actually don't really like each other, just as it is with Perrin/Faile.

Also, how stupid is Rand? He doesn't figure out that Egwene is treated like a child with those braids despite the fact that this obvious. He allows a person he considers a spy to hang out with them. He doesn't really investigate those weirdo traders who might all be Darkfriends/disguised Forsaken? Asmodean isn't exactly a great actor and basicly does nothing but implicitly tell him that he is a Forsaken and would join and teach him if he were to take him in ... and he doesn't grasp any of that?

And don't get me started on the warped view of women who allow themselves to become part of a harem in a society which supposedly includes matriarchal elements whenever they are friends and in love with the same guy? That's such a blatantly obvious male fantasy that you cannot take it seriously. And it shows who and what Jordan was that he doesn't even theoretically consider the possibility that two male friends loving the same might marry her, too. At least such a possibility was never entertained up to that point.

And the Aiel keep cattle and goats and other such animals in their waste which is basically as dry as fucking Arrakis? Are you kidding me? These people never saw streams and rivers but do have sufficient water to raise cattle? Of course.

The way to go there would have been to use mutated versions of animals who don't need much water even in our world, i.e. mostly small non-mammals. But, of course, even that would be barely believable.

The whole 'the evil Aes Sedai plotter' shit is also completely unbearable. So far there is no indication that they are competent plotters nor any indication that any of the 'good Aes Sedai' our guys met and hang out with want to enslave our heroes. But they still don't trust them. It is like a broken record, always the same silly little line.

And Siuan - I had forgotten how stupid that entire plot was. Min told her everything, but she didn't see it coming! How demented is that woman?

And what exactly was the pretext? I didn't get it because the author didn't show it to us? Siuan admits she told them a lot during her torture session ... but prior to that, Elaida didn't seem to know all that much. I'd get the whole thing if Siuan had a clear vision for Rand and the Hall - or the majority faction there - would have an opposing view. But we don't see any of that.

And fucking Gawyn helping the evil Aes Sedai to kill the good Warders? Really? What a stupid plot was that? Even in light of the fact that nobody told Elayne's brothers anything (which never made any sense) ... it is still barely believable that Gawyn would side with the coup faction considering that they didn't follow the proper procedures. That's basically like Gawyn siding with some pretender toppling his mommy because he has a quarrel with her.

If you want to have that plot - then build it up properly. Show that Gawyn is close to Elaida, under her influence, or is otherwise involved with the plotters. Don't do it the way Jordan did it.

Also - how silly are basically all lines about Min viewing herself through a man's eyes while wearing gowns, etc.?

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Eh, I don't have a problem with Gawyn's loyalties at this point. It's later in the books that he becomes unbearable to me. Gawyn knows Elaida, and she would have been deferential to Gawyn in Camelyn at his mother's court. Siuan has not been playing straight with Gawyn and keeping Elayne's whereabouts secret. Gawyn has no relationship with Siuan and doesn't trust Elayne's safety to her. Morgause is not pleased with Siuan at the moment. It makes sense for Gawyn to chose Elaida at this point. Siuan was deposed according to the book after all. (it fit the letter of the law if not the spirit. Gawyn not recognizing the niceties of Tower Law is not surprising) But you may have to refresh me on how it was presented to the public, because I remember it being a legal maneuver and approved by the right number of Sitters. It would be like deciding that an impeachment conviction of a sitting president was a coup and opposing it.

He made a snap judgement and didn't re-examine it. Name a more Gawyn thing to do.

Back to the Aiel. On the surface, I really like the idea of them. It's the smaller details that emerge that show how deeply traditional even this non-traditional culture is. As you mentioned, polygamous marriages are common, but we see none with two men. Also as you said, a roofmistress is honored, but of course she is because the home is a woman's domain. She owns the property so she also gets to propose and men do not. Oooooh, you go girl! Men are chiefs, Wise Ones are honored, but basically advisors. Why do men get to lead when honestly, there would be more consistency of leadership if non-warrior women took hold of it. The clan chiefs are always putting themselves in danger on raids etc. It's something RJ could have done but decided not to. This one I will let pass because or the Car'A'Carn thing, but even that could have been accommodated by different writing choices.

It's acknowledged that women can fight and aren't seen as lesser for it, but they get one whole warrior society to chose from. I don't expect them to match the men's number's. Child bearing and child care is still a reality and they don't have the conveniences to fully separate from that, but just one society for the women? Also, there is nothing stopping a woman from rejoining her warrior society once the child is old enough to be cared for by someone else. Hell, once a child is born, why couldn't the Aiel have had a more community rearing outlook rather than strict family structure. 

But no, they can't have a family, but the men can still be active warriors and have a family. The women have to marry their spears which is far too close to nuns in a convent for me. I know it's not the same, but it's got that association for me and RJs traditional world view is too strong to be truly progressive. He's almost there, he just doesn't really land it, and that's the frustrating part.

 

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13 hours ago, Gertrude said:

Eh, I don't have a problem with Gawyn's loyalties at this point.

My issues are twofold - one with the fact that nobody ever told Elayne's brothers what was going on ... which just makes no sense on any level. I mean, Jordan does go out of his way to establish that the good guys form connections with them - first Rand, later Mat, the girls, etc. ... and then this has literally no effect on where their loyalties lie. That's just not very good writing.

As I said - if Gawyn was to be an Elaida fanboy then Jordan should have built that up, perhaps by establishing from the start that Gawyn and Elaida were very close, etc. That could have made sense, after all.

The other point is that Siuan didn't trust Elayne's brothers enough to tell them that Elayne was on a secret mission for her. After all, this would give nothing about Rand away and it would have been the obvious thing to do to heal the rift between Andor and the White Tower. Morgase is away, but her sons are there, so the way to get to her would have been through them.

But, of course, Siuan doesn't even try to do this.

And, finally, there is the fact that Gawyn first plays the crucial role in ensuring that Siuan isn't freed and subsequently stilled ... and then this moron actually helps her to escape. Why exactly? Because Min is with her? Because it makes sense to first play a crucial role in the deposition of a head of state to then allow her to escape so she might avenge herself, possibly on your person and/or your family?

This turns Gawyn into a very inconsistent character.

13 hours ago, Gertrude said:

Siuan was deposed according to the book after all. (it fit the letter of the law if not the spirit. Gawyn not recognizing the niceties of Tower Law is not surprising) But you may have to refresh me on how it was presented to the public, because I remember it being a legal maneuver and approved by the right number of Sitters. It would be like deciding that an impeachment conviction of a sitting president was a coup and opposing it.

I'm not sure if this is ever elaborated on later, but what we learn is that Elaida and Alviarin assembled the Hall without noticing the Amyrlin and only invited the necessary minority of sitters for that session. Also, they didn't actually accuse the Amyrlin of anything nor did they give her the opportunity to explain her actions and/or defend herself.

This sounds and feels wrong considering that, without Siuan actually explaining or revealing anything, the entire basis for her deposition could have been based on lies or misunderstandings.

The way I interpreted the events Siuan Sanche was already no longer the Amyrlin when they arrested her, so they did indeed never listen to her side of the story.

And I really don't understand the problems they had with on the basis of what she did. Especially since Elaida and her folks could have technically tried to convince Siuan to take her point of view, i.e. to do now whatever they have in store for Rand ... assuming future books indicate Elaida and her part actually do have a consistent plan for Rand.

I'm aware that Alviarin is a high-ranking Black Ajah, so there are certainly other reasons/motivations behind the coup, but a considerable number of Elaida's followers shouldn't be Black Ajah.

13 hours ago, Gertrude said:

Back to the Aiel. On the surface, I really like the idea of them. It's the smaller details that emerge that show how deeply traditional even this non-traditional culture is. As you mentioned, polygamous marriages are common, but we see none with two men. Also as you said, a roofmistress is honored, but of course she is because the home is a woman's domain. She owns the property so she also gets to propose and men do not. Oooooh, you go girl!

Yes, the latter just seems to be something I'd dub 'ruleism', i.e. the tenency in (badly-written) fantasy or SF to have characters slavishly follow some kind of cultural custom just because it was established ... and not because it makes sense in the fictional setting or does seem to grow naturally out of the society as it is presented in the larger context.

The idea that men cannot propose to women in the Aiel society just doesn't make any sense. It could make sense if there was an explanation for this but without that it feels completely weird.

Insofar as polygamy is concerned my big issue is with Jordan's view of women that is revealed by that idea as well as Rand's later harem - namely that it is normal/acceptable for women to share a man the way the Aiel women do.

13 hours ago, Gertrude said:

Men are chiefs, Wise Ones are honored, but basically advisors. Why do men get to lead when honestly, there would be more consistency of leadership if non-warrior women took hold of it. The clan chiefs are always putting themselves in danger on raids etc. It's something RJ could have done but decided not to. This one I will let pass because or the Car'A'Carn thing, but even that could have been accommodated by different writing choices.

A society with real matriarchal elements would have done away with the partiarchal marriage and family idea in general, i.e. there would, perhaps, be other societal groups where the burden of raising children is taken on more shoulders. But then - to make a Fremen-like infighting society of super warriors more matriarchal doesn't even make much sense, anyway, since a more martiarchal society would likely not know that much internal strife nor would they be as martial as the Aiel clearly are.

Yet the Aiel marriage thing is very traditional despite the weirdo harem thing since, for instance, the warrior women have to give up their way of life when they marry ... and when they become a Wise Woman. Never mind that there is no real reason why they should do either.

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4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

As I said - if Gawyn was to be an Elaida fanboy then Jordan should have built that up, perhaps by establishing from the start that Gawyn and Elaida were very close, etc. That could have made sense, after all.

The other point is that Siuan didn't trust Elayne's brothers enough to tell them that Elayne was on a secret mission for her. After all, this would give nothing about Rand away and it would have been the obvious thing to do to heal the rift between Andor and the White Tower. Morgase is away, but her sons are there, so the way to get to her would have been through them

I don't want to put in the energy to defend this, but I don't see a reason Gawyn needs to have a relationship with Elaida built up. They have a working relationship that's been established. Gawyn and Siuan have a contentious relationship aggravated by Siuan and Morgause fighting.

Why would Siuan tell Gawyn anything about Elayne? (and please correct me if I'm wrong here) Elayne was off doing her Black Ajah hunt - the very hunt Siuan foolishly entrusts to half grown women because she's so paranoid of darkfriends everywhere? She doesn't have to think Gawyn is  a darkfriend himself to mistrust that he'd let something unintentionally slip to Elaida (political foe), Morgause (angry mama and quickly escalating political foe), Galad (White Cloack adjascent) or anyone else that would give a clue as to Elayne's whereabouts or mission.

As far as anyone not immediately in the Tower was concerned, Siuan's deposition was legal and proper. Gawyn was fighting to keep the Tower whole, the Tower that his sister and Egwene believed in and an unbroken Tower that would have the power to keep those women safe.

As to letting Siuan go, I'm not gonna defend that. It doesn't bother me much, but I won't defend it either.

Look, these books have a lot of flaws, but you are going out of your way to turn over every rock and see if you can't get people to throw them with you. That's fine, that seems to be your niche, but as someone who is also pretty critical of the series, you're exhausting me.

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5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Yes, the latter just seems to be something I'd dub 'ruleism', i.e. the tenency in (badly-written) fantasy or SF to have characters slavishly follow some kind of cultural custom just because it was established ... and not because it makes sense in the fictional setting or does seem to grow naturally out of the society as it is presented in the larger context.

To me, this is more obvious in some of the other little hints at Aiel custom that Aviendha throws at Rand. I just remember something special about a goldsmith having special honor - I don't even know. My point is that RJ does a pretty good job at fleshing out the Aiel and explaining why they do the things they do, then he keeps going and it feels artificial to me again with all these seemingly nonsensical rules. I get what he was trying to do and I get that this is stuff we were never meant to understand, but that doesn't make the execution any better. 

Personally I feel that most of his world building in regards to the national cultures is mostly just a pile of rules that he didn't really give a lot of thought to. Nearly all of them have that vaguely artificial feel.

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2 hours ago, Gertrude said:

I don't want to put in the energy to defend this, but I don't see a reason Gawyn needs to have a relationship with Elaida built up. They have a working relationship that's been established. Gawyn and Siuan have a contentious relationship aggravated by Siuan and Morgause fighting.

Don't take me wrong, this isn't a big issue for me. I was just kind of irritated that Gawyn actually played a crucial role in Siuan's downfall. And I think if this had to be the case it could have worked much better if there had been more buildup for this.

And to be sure - nothing indicates that Gawyn was involved in Elaida's plans or were told to fight against the Warders trying to free Siuan ... it seems to decided to take up arms all by himself which isn't anything he had to do considering who and what he was in the Tower hierarchy.

2 hours ago, Gertrude said:

Why would Siuan tell Gawyn anything about Elayne? (and please correct me if I'm wrong here) Elayne was off doing her Black Ajah hunt - the very hunt Siuan foolishly entrusts to half grown women because she's so paranoid of darkfriends everywhere? She doesn't have to think Gawyn is  a darkfriend himself to mistrust that he'd let something unintentionally slip to Elaida (political foe), Morgause (angry mama and quickly escalating political foe), Galad (White Cloack adjascent) or anyone else that would give a clue as to Elayne's whereabouts or mission.

I'd think that after the whole Falme debacle it would have made sense for the girls - and if they were too stupid then for Siuan - to tell Gawyn and Galad what they were doing. Even more so for Siuan after Egwene/Nynaeve dragged Elayne into their mission against Siuan's wishes. Lying to the Trakands a second time certainly wasn't a smart thing to do.

And if she was believing/considering that the Trakands could not be trusted in any context then ... well, she could just as well believe the girls were Black Ajah, too.

As for Galad - he isn't a Whitecloak yet and wasn't exactly on the road in that direction when the girls left, that's something that has barely begun at this point.

2 hours ago, Gertrude said:

As far as anyone not immediately in the Tower was concerned, Siuan's deposition was legal and proper. Gawyn was fighting to keep the Tower whole, the Tower that his sister and Egwene believed in and an unbroken Tower that would have the power to keep those women safe.

If this were so ... then I don't understand why there are opposing Aes Sedai later on. If the spirit of the law was kept then Egwene and company later are all traitors and shouldn't oppose Elaida at all.

My impression is that Elaida clearly went well beyond what was right and proper which is why the later rebellion is justified.

 

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It's not like they have a legal system for the Tower that would adjudicate this. Elaida technically followed the rules, but the rebels disagree with her ethics and leadership. It's a Civil War - what other justification does there need to be? The Rebels recognize that they are rebelling, even if they still continue to project themselves as legitimate to the rest of the world. If they don't, they've already lost the battle. But the point is that in the moment and by all the laws of the Tower - Elaida is the rightful power. This is all happening before anyone really has any time to think about it.

As for Gawyn not having any responsibility to get involved - he sort of does? If you are a military cadet at West Point and the situation was that the president had been lawfully arrested, what is your duty to stop a break out attempt on behalf of said president?

I think Galad has been talking to Valda (?) at this point casually. Even if not, Galad can be relied upon to act in accordance with his inner sense of duty, and thus is a wildcard for Siuan. Gawyn is his brother who looks up and defers to him. Elayne she at least has some control over and some knowledge of.

 

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13 hours ago, Gertrude said:

It's not like they have a legal system for the Tower that would adjudicate this.

They don't? I thought there were a couple of precedents for the Hall sacking an Amyrlin and they did include a Hall that wasn't just staffed with the minimum quorum of yes-sayers as well as a proper kind of trial where evidence was examined and the Amyrlin had the ability to defend her actions.

This was clearly not the case this time. And as I said - the book as such doesn't even tell the reader why Siuan was deposed, what the Elaida and her people knew when they assembled the Hall, and what the pretexts were. If we don't know, we cannot really assume Gawyn knew

13 hours ago, Gertrude said:

Elaida technically followed the rules, but the rebels disagree with her ethics and leadership. It's a Civil War - what other justification does there need to be? The Rebels recognize that they are rebelling, even if they still continue to project themselves as legitimate to the rest of the world. If they don't, they've already lost the battle. But the point is that in the moment and by all the laws of the Tower - Elaida is the rightful power. This is all happening before anyone really has any time to think about it.

I'd assume that the rebels do have a better reason than 'Siuan was one of us' for their rebellion. If Elaida's actions were more or less okay, then it is very odd that the other Blues don't stay in line. It would then, perhaps, be personally unpleasant for Siuan and Leane ... but so what?

But I will have to wait and see why other Aes Sedai rebel. That Siuan wants revenge is kind of obvious, but that cannot be the only/main reason.

13 hours ago, Gertrude said:

As for Gawyn not having any responsibility to get involved - he sort of does? If you are a military cadet at West Point and the situation was that the president had been lawfully arrested, what is your duty to stop a break out attempt on behalf of said president?

That seems to be a false comparison. Gawyn isn't a citizen of Tar Valon, unlike a cadet at West Point. Rather he is a guest from a foreign nation who happens to be trained in the martial arts of the White Tower as kind of a diplomatic courtesy.

A proper comparison would be, say, a Russion or Chinese diplomat's son attending West Point deciding to take up arms and play a crucial role in an internal civil war/strife in the United States.

Such a person certainly can take sides in a conflict ... but they do not have to. And they definitely involve themselves in the internal affairs of another state.

13 hours ago, Gertrude said:

I think Galad has been talking to Valda (?) at this point casually. Even if not, Galad can be relied upon to act in accordance with his inner sense of duty, and thus is a wildcard for Siuan. Gawyn is his brother who looks up and defers to him. Elayne she at least has some control over and some knowledge of.

I think we first hear about Galad and the book in the Prologue of TSR, i.e. long after the girls have left Tar Valon a second time.

Overall, Galad seems to me the ideal and obvious ally to Rand and the good guys. He actually has a moral compass and if folks actually told him the truth then he should do the right thing, no? I mean, if you sat him down and told him the Dragon prophecies and stuff, and that Rand was the Dragon Reborn and the only hope for the survival of mankind, etc. then he would do everything in his power to support him, right?

And he could also be counted upon to put Rand down if he ever got too mad to do his job and/or was hopelessly mad after his eventual victory and could not be allowed to live.

That he ends up with the Whitecloaks kind of makes sense but only because nobody ever bothered to include him in their decisions earlier ... never mind that they had numerous opportunities.

Thinking about it, in context it may have made more sense if Galad had been interested in the Whitecloaks even back in Caemlyn - after all, they were there in the city, and one would imagine they wanted to approach or convert folks close to the queen. It would have made more sense if they had had success back then rather than after Galad had gone to Tar Valon where he would be surrounded the entire time by Warders, other trainees, Aes Sedai, and the people of Tar Valon.

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On 1/5/2022 at 8:44 PM, Gertrude said:

Speaking of ta'veren, I've seen an argument come up a lot recently with the show changes. Now that Egwene is also a ta'veren, that diminishes her accomplishments. I call bullshit on this, obviously. No one thinks Rand or Mat or Perrin are less accomplished or less bad-ass because of their ta'veren nature. It's just being used now because it wasn't like that in the books and I suspect it upsets the balance of the boys being the center of the story, even though it really is kind of Rand and Egwene as the big movers and shakers and the power players here.

Just curious to hear thoughts about this.

I see the point, actually. Egwene is the opposite of the reluctant hero. She's not looking for all the craziness that comes her way, but when it becomes clear it's going to come anyway, she works to improve herself and become the person who has the skills needed to do the job. She tries to find the right teachers, and pulls everything she can from them.

Being ta'veren doesn't change that, of course, but I kind of liked that she has none of the advantages of the guys, and then has a reasonably believable success because she's shown to be such a good student. So I can see how it can be off-putting that she's ta'veren now.

But it doesn't bug me as much, because the show barely cares what being ta'veren is. 

As for Siuan being deposed, that was barely legal. It's definitely unprecedented, because no Amyrlin has been deposed with a minimum quorum before. The law only says the Ajah that the Amyrlin came from need not be present, since getting the Greater Consensus when one set of Sitters has every incentive to deny it isn't a good idea. But Elaida's group went well beyond that.

But the Rebellion is on solid legal ground because Elaida used the same bare minimum quorum to be raised Amyrlin. That isn't legal. You're supposed to be raised by all Ajahs, per the law. That's why the Blues rebelled, and most of the Greens joined them, and Elaida then retroactively tries to legitimize herself by dissolving the Blue Ajah, which gives them even more incentive to dig in.

21 minutes ago, Gertrude said:

Not having fun anymore, so I'm out.

Welcome to the club, lol. I see we've reached a point where LV is pissing off people who don't even have the most positive view of the books. :lol:

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On 1/8/2022 at 5:54 PM, Gertrude said:

Wow, you just like to argue, don't you? I've completely lost the thread of any point I had because you just pick at everything to an insane degree.

Not having fun anymore, so I'm out.

Sorry, but I see it as part of a general courtesy to reply to remarks directed at me. If you don't like that, just don't reply. I've no issue with that at all.

On 1/8/2022 at 6:17 PM, fionwe1987 said:

As for Siuan being deposed, that was barely legal. It's definitely unprecedented, because no Amyrlin has been deposed with a minimum quorum before. The law only says the Ajah that the Amyrlin came from need not be present, since getting the Greater Consensus when one set of Sitters has every incentive to deny it isn't a good idea. But Elaida's group went well beyond that.

My issues with that are basically twofold:

One there is the way it is depicted in TSR - we don't see the actual deposition nor the questioning/torture thereafter. This is a rather crucial event in the larger plot, so it would have been great if the author had given us more details about the process as such.

The other thing is that we don't really understand - at least as per TSR - what exactly Elaida and her allies accuse Siuan of?

Remember, in this very book we get learn from Siuan's own POV that she has received word from Moiraine that Rand has claimed Callandor at Tear ... and that she plans to assemble the Hall to reveal that and talk about it.

In context it is pretty much inconceivable that Siuan could that and actually fool the Hall into believing that she didn't actually know or strongly suspect that Rand was the Dragon Reborn when she met him at Fal Dara. It would also impossible to deny or conceal that Moiraine had discovered Rand at Emond's Field because she was looking for the Dragon Reborn and that she had been at his side for a quite some time at this point.

But if all that was enough for Siuan to be deposed ... how could she ever hope not to be deposed? How could she convince the Hall that she was doing was okay when it couldn't possibly be okay in their eyes?

And then there is question what allows you to depose an Amyrlin in the first place? The first precendence is Tetsuan of the Red Ajah who betrayed Manetheren's call for help during the Trolloc Wars - which seems to be a crime on multiple levels - assisting the Shadow, betraying an allied nation, betraying a fellow Aes Sedai. And the second one was Bonhwin - her actions seem less openly treacherous than Tetsuan's, but they definitely put the entire order into a very bad position.

Compared to this ... I don't actually see what Siuan did wrong. There is no law or anything that would have forced her to reveal everything she suspected or knew about Rand - and depending how much Moiraine told her at Fal Dara she may have only fully believed that Rand was the Dragon Reborn after Falme or Callandor.

While this whole thing certainly can be a risk in the view of other Aes Sedai ... it is by no means too late to control Rand. There are various means to do that, some more forceful than others, and even I know that Elaida's girls repeatedly attempt to control Rand, just as the Forsaken do.

So what exactly are Siuan's crimes?

And - more importantly: What exactly did her enemies know when they deposed her ... and what did she and (especially) Leane do to deserve being stilled - the latter basically had no clue about Siuan and Moiraine were doing?

What little TSR indicates is that Elaida didn't even have Min's testimony - Alviarin, presumably, went to the farm and tortured and killed the novice who overheard a talk between Min and Gawyn in the beginning of TSR, but that's clearly not 'evidence' of anything.

I get it that the Black Ajah were most likely instructed to sack Siuan and replace her with the easily controlled moron Elaida, but even the Blacks would have to actually build a case against Siuan and Alviarin could not really publicly say that her Forsaken buddies told her that Rand was the Dragon Reborn ... even more so since she was at Fal Dara, saw and interacted with Rand there, and didn't capture him.

I mean, even Elaida's regime is not all Black Ajah. They still are just a powerful faction within a larger whole and they have to act behind the scenes. Else they would have just made Alviarin or Mesaana herself the Amyrlin, no?

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Deposing an Amyrlin, in functional terms, is like a vote of no confidence in a Parliamentary democracy, or even Impeachment in the American Constitution. You do not need to have crimes specifically against laws in the biok, though that specific conspiracy, that of seeking and finding the Dragon Reborn in secret, is crime enough in the eyes of some, in the Tower, though obviously not all.

It is a politically frought question, and one faction that sees things one way had just enough support to get Elaida what she wanted. But that doesn't mean the "crimes" they listed have to violate specific laws in the books. 

Siuan's fear was of discovery before it was clear Rand was definitely the Dragon Reborn. The risk there is she'd be accused of giving aid to a male channeler/setting up a False Dragon. Once Rand claimed Callandor, Siuan didn't have to worry about that. Since he clearly was the Dragon Reborn, what she and Moiraine were doing was legal.

The Reds, however, and their allies, don't believe a Blue can be trusted with the Dragon, especially not after all the secrecy with which she dealt with his finding. And so she's ousted.

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2 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

Deposing an Amyrlin, in functional terms, is like a vote of no confidence in a Parliamentary democracy, or even Impeachment in the American Constitution. You do not need to have crimes specifically against laws in the biok, though that specific conspiracy, that of seeking and finding the Dragon Reborn in secret, is crime enough in the eyes of some, in the Tower, though obviously not all.

Yeah, I get how it works, but even there you, as the impeached head of state/government leader, are allowed to present your case and defend yourself against the accusations and/or convince the assembled people that you should not be sacked.

That didn't happen there. They actually assembled the Hall without the Amyrlin and the Keeper. Which strikes me either as a break of procedure ... or as Jordan not giving the Aes Sedai a good procedure. If random people can just assemble and depose a head of state on a whim then the system is pretty bad.

2 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

It is a politically frought question, and one faction that sees things one way had just enough support to get Elaida what she wanted. But that doesn't mean the "crimes" they listed have to violate specific laws in the books.

So far we don't even know what exactly Siuan and, especially, Leane stand accused of. I get it what the Black Ajah likely want, and we also understand that Elaida hates Siuan and Moiraine for her own petty reasons ... but wouldn't the others have needed actual evidence for crimes or a bad behavior? And why didn't they want to hear Siuan's side of the story?

2 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

Siuan's fear was of discovery before it was clear Rand was definitely the Dragon Reborn. The risk there is she'd be accused of giving aid to a male channeler/setting up a False Dragon. Once Rand claimed Callandor, Siuan didn't have to worry about that. Since he clearly was the Dragon Reborn, what she and Moiraine were doing was legal.

I'm not sure that can make much sense in-universe. They know the Dragon will be reborn and that he must be a male channeler, so how the hell could they find him if they were not to watch possible Dragon candidates? And Siuan/Moiraine do have 'evidence' that the Dragon has been reborn already, so the other Aes Sedai shouldn't be able to dismiss all that. At least not all that easily.

I know that the Blacks had this secret male channeler murder program earlier ... and I've also trouble swallowing that outside the Black Ajah circles since the non-Blacks should have known if the Dragon is out there they need him. They cannot kill him before the Last Battle.

2 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

The Reds, however, and their allies, don't believe a Blue can be trusted with the Dragon, especially not after all the secrecy with which she dealt with his finding. And so she's ousted.

That may be a reasonable point of view from their side ... but why any of the others should view it their way.

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On 12/27/2021 at 1:38 AM, Lord Varys said:

Why would it be a problem that Egwene has to contact her friends? Why would they only establish that she can do that under supervision after she got humiliated?

Honestly, it is a regularly repeated motive in the series that the supposed experts refuse to teach our heroes something that they desperately need to learn ASAP because "it is too dangerous", so the heroes of course just have to disobey and muddle through without any help whatsoever. It is like more experienced people are unaware that the end of the world is almost at hand and the usual leisurly approach won't work !  This happens always if a mentor is female, but I think that there are a couple of instances of men doing it too. Which is really annoying - fans like to talk about WoT having intricate worldbuilding and rules-based magic, when really the protagonists constantly pull the new rule-breaking abilities out of thin air or effortlessly reinvent the bicycle ditto. And then it is used by the narrative as the evidence that  established organizations have become too blinkered and hide-bound, but in the end effect it  makes the notion that  use of magic is any more consistent than in Harry Potter into a joke. Things just get introduced and retconned as the plot requires it.

 

On 12/27/2021 at 1:38 AM, Lord Varys said:

Yet Jordan insist of turning her apprenticeship there into a domineering and abusive mistress-slave relationship.

And all female apprenticeships are like that, really. While the few glimpses we see of male ones are much more respectful.

Speaking of domineering there are generally a lot of ways for female channelers to get perfectly  controlled against their will /enslaved in the books, whereas men are either resistent or immune, so yea...

 

On 12/27/2021 at 1:38 AM, Lord Varys said:

 How fucked up is Aiel society when nobody ever talks about what they saw in Rhuidean?

Uh, why would you think so? Initiation mysteries were common throughout RL history and in this case not only are Aiel a very honor-defined culture, but there was a prophecy that the things had to be that way for their people to be prepared for and survive the Last battle.

As has already been mentioned, the AS entrusting the objects to the Aiel during the Breaking was actually a ploy to make them save themselves. No, she couldn't have just commanded it, the Aiel weren't slaves, they had minds of their own and needed a seemingly important task to motivate them to abandon the capital. It also seemed that the AS were stretched very thin between everything the Foretelling told them that they needed to accomplish for the humanity to have a chance to survive in the future and containing the mad male channelers.

And it is very strongly hinted that the Aes Sedai who founded the White Tower were also mainly wilders, that there was a break of tradition since canonically none of the AS who were alive at the beginning of the Breaking survived to the end of it. And they had much more pressing concerns than to look for the Aiel or to prioritize historical knowledge about them. Then, once the civilisation was on the up-swing again, 3 centuries of the Trolloc Wars happened, during which, again, scholarship would have taken a backseat and also the WT archives were burned. It makes sense to me that the origin of the Aiel was well and truly forgotten by that point. The Aiel themselves, of course, only remembered because of their history ter'angreal.

It also seems that the 4 post-Breaking AS that did re-join the Aiel eventually and set up the test ter'angreal for them, had been fully aware of their history, but had Fortellings that the Aiel needed to remain separate and refuse any more contact. The biggest incongruity here is that we are supposed to believe that the fading Jenn had been able to build a huge city in the desert and then just died out somehow.

Yep, it is convenient that the arrow that wounded Perrin wasn't poisoned. Maybe they just do it to the swords, for some reason? Or maybe the swords aren't poisoned in traditional sense, but are somehow manufactured so that they have this effect and the arrowheads aren't worth the effort.

Re: Siuan's deposition, IIRC there was a  mild ret-con where in TSR it seemed to be illegal* and she certainly thought in her PoV that she was entitled to a trial before stilling, but later it was somehow within the barest letter of the law. And yes, there was no justification whatsoever for doing the same to Leanne, who had no part in any of it, but it got completely glossed over, sigh. I guess that charges against Siuan were about concealing and abetting a male channeler and wilfully refusing to bring the Dragon Reborn under the White Tower's control.

While I do think that Siuan was in a tight spot re: who to trust, because anybody except for Nyn and Egs could have been a DF, sending them on the BA hunt never made much sense to me. Unless Siuan just thought that they would be safer as a moving target than as sitting ducks in the WT. And Gawyn bullshit is largely on Elayne - she should have taken him along in the first place and she was the only one qualified to judge his trustworthiness. Min's viewing were singularly unhelpful about the coup, presumably because the Pattern needed it to happen? I don't think that Siuan could have prevented it in any case, what with one fifth of the sisterhood being Black Ajah and a Forsaken camping in the Tower.

*(IIRC Elaida only had 10 Sitters when she needed 11 for it)

 

On 1/1/2022 at 8:11 PM, fionwe1987 said:

As for Travelling... Where would they Travel to ? Nowhere was actually safe from male channelers. Even steddings were moving or being destroyed. There was no location to open a gateway to where the Aiel would suddenly be safe.

In this scene, the 2 men advancing on the city was presented as a pressing danger for some reason, so just send them away from it, to somewhere that seems momentarily safe. Certainly better than expecting them to get far enough away to be spared at a horse-drawn wagon speed. For that matter, why was nobody afraid of such exceptionally powerful/geared up men that a single one of them could destroy a major city,  just Travelling in?

 

On 1/6/2022 at 3:44 AM, Gertrude said:

Speaking of ta'veren, I've seen an argument come up a lot recently with the show changes. Now that Egwene is also a ta'veren, that diminishes her accomplishments.

Yes, her accomplishments in a span of just a year and change never seemed believable as a regular person who started as a country bumpkin teenager anyway. Talent and drive here or there.  But Egwene being a ta'veren would have justified her disagreements with Rand as being the Pattern's check on him, so it would have taken the wind out of the sails of all the "how dare she, he is the Dragon Reborn, he is will of the Pattern incarnate, all must submit to him and follow him!" crowd. Also,  they could no longer accuse her of being a Mary Sue. Really, Jordan _should_ have made her a ta'veren by the time she got elected Amyrlin of he intended her to be Rand's balance towards the end, as it seems that he did. It is a temporary condition anyway, or should be.

My preferred alternative would have been if Rand was the only ta'veren, the time-line covered at least half a decade and the other 2 superboys had to actually earn their abilities and prominence, while various channelers developed more organically as well. But that ship has sailed halfway through book 1... And of course having trawled through various Jordan quotes and draft snippets recently I now know that Mat and Perrin were written as self-inserts of the different aspects of the author's personality, which probably explains their privileged treatement by the narrative... 

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7 hours ago, Maia said:

Honestly, it is a regularly repeated motive in the series that the supposed experts refuse to teach our heroes something that they desperately need to learn ASAP because "it is too dangerous", so the heroes of course just have to disobey and muddle through without any help whatsoever. It is like more experienced people are unaware that the end of the world is almost at hand and the usual leisurly approach won't work !  This happens always if a mentor is female, but I think that there are a couple of instances of men doing it too. Which is really annoying - fans like to talk about WoT having intricate worldbuilding and rules-based magic, when really the protagonists constantly pull the new rule-breaking abilities out of thin air or efortlessly reinvent the bicycle ditto. And then it is used by the narrative as evidence that the established organizations have become too blinkered and hide-bound, but in the end effect it  makes the notion that the use of magic is any more consistent than in Harry Potter into a joke. Things just get introduced and retconned as the plot requires it.

It just seems to be a very petty and shitty thing to do. The condenscending attitude there is almost unbearable. 'You are so stupid/inexperienced that you don't even understand why you cannot do that on your own.'

The heroes defying their teachers and mentors can make sense, but those aritificial and nonsensical barriers the author creates just make no sense. That's just a way to burn pages and slow the narrative down.

7 hours ago, Maia said:

And all female apprenticeships are like that, really. While the few glimpses we see of male ones are much more respectful.

Yes, the women are all abusive. I don't expect that Lan is ever going to give Rand a well-deserved spanking, nor are there any scheming, manipulative men in the books. Even Rahvin seems to actually dominate Morgase rather than, you know, manipulate her.

7 hours ago, Maia said:

Speaking of domineering there are generally a lot of ways for female channelers to get perfectly perfectly controlled against their will /enslaved in the books, whereas men are either resistent or immune, so yea...

Yes, of course. The whole slave girls thing comes so naturally to this series that I honestly was confused for a moment that the damane and sul'dam were actually depict as being of equal height - I'd had intuitively imagined that the damane have to crawl on all fours like good little slave girls.

Unless I'm misremembering the domination band for male channelers isn't as effective as that for women and needs two women to control you and is designed so that eventually the male channeler will break free/control his controllers, no?

In that context we can also discuss Jordan's obesession with physical height - men are always taller than women, establishing the natural hierarchy of the sexes, which is why a small female Aes Sedai dominating a room full of people is actually wrong/unnatural and would normally be countered by taller, more charismatic, more powerful male Aes Sedai.

I expect Rand will continue to put women in their place with his mere presence alone as his powers continue to manifest.

7 hours ago, Maia said:

Uh, why would you think so? Initiation mysteries were common throughout RL history and in this case not only are Aiel a very honor-defined culture, but there was a prophecy that the things had to be that way for their people to be prepared for and survive the Last battle.

I've no issue with initiation rituals ... but with a culture which continues to teach the un-initiated lies about their true origins. It is like folks believing in a flat earth learning the truth is some ritual and then keeping that to themselves.

There is no innate reason why the Aiel cannot know the truth about their origins and remain an honorable people.

7 hours ago, Maia said:

As has already been mentioned, the AS entrusting the objects to the Aiel during the Breaking was actually a ploy to make them save themselves. No, she couldn't have just commanded it, the Aiel weren't slaves, they had minds of their own and needed a seemingly important task to motivate them to abandon the capital. It also seemed that the AS were stretched very thin between everything the Foretelling told them that they needed to accomplish for the humanity to have a chance to survive in the future and containing the mad male channelers.

Okay, but they could have certainly come up with a better way to do that, namely, build some kind of retreat where they could store the artificats or something else along those lines. It also strikes me as completely stupid that they wouldn't send at least one Aes Sedai with the Aiel when they left.

7 hours ago, Maia said:

And it is very strongly hinted that the Aes Sedai who founded the White Tower were also mainly wilders, that there was a break of tradition since canonically none of the AS who were alive at the beginning of the Breaking survived to the end of it.

That strikes me as not exactly very likely. The Aes Sedai at that time had a very long lifespan, so we would have to assume that all Aes Sedai at the end of the Breaking were taught by Aes Sedai who were born during or even before the Shadow War even began. You are right that apparently no Aes Sedai lived through the Breaking, but that alone does not constituate a breaking in tradition. It can't, actually.

For that Jordan would have to establish that the Breaking lasted so long that mulitple generations of Aes Sedai were born and lived and died during the Breaking, so that - like with the Aiel - the Aes Sedai at the end would only have the tales of their grandparents or great-grandparents about the beginning.

But that clearly isn't the case as per the author.

If 'mainly wilders' formed the White Tower then things should have been more different than they actually were.

Instead, the impression I get from the Worldbook is that the Aes Sedai fractured into those different Ajahs but that there is a direct link from those Ajahs back to the pre-Breaking Aes Sedai.

7 hours ago, Maia said:

And they had much more pressing concerns than to look for the Aiel or to prioritize historical knowledge about them. Then, once the civilisation was on the up-swing again, 3 centuries of the Trolloc Wars happened, during which, again, scholarship would have taken a backseat and also the WT archives were burned. It makes sense to me that the origin of the Aiel was well and truly forgotten by that point. The Aiel themselves, of course, only remembered because of their history ter'angreal.

Again, knowing that you, as an order, once had a bunch of servants named Aiel is just not something that you would forget as an institution. They might forget details about the Aiel or what their function was exactly, but not the general knowledge about.

Keep in mind that they still remember that there was a Dragon and an Age of Legends and Forsaken. The Aiel were a crucial part of the earlier society, nearly as honored as the Aes Sedai themselves. Technically, even mundane people should still remember them.

And when you bring the Ogier into the mix it becomes clear that nobody should have ever forgotten the Aiel since they live as long as the old Aes Sedai and they survived the Breaking, with some Ogier possibly living through the entire Breaking. There is no chance that the Ogier would not remember and pass on the knowledge what they and the Aiel and the Nym did back in the good old days.

7 hours ago, Maia said:

It also seems that the 4 post-Breaking AS that did re-join the Aiel eventually and set up the test ter'angreal for them, had been fully aware of their history, but had Fortellings that the Aiel needed to remain separate and refuse any more contact. The biggest incongruity here is that we are supposed to believe that the fading Jenn had been able to build a huge city in the desert and then just died out somehow.

Those Aes Sedai can make sense if they were never part of the Tar Valon Aes Sedai - the order did fracture, after all, and the Aes Sedai in Seanchean and Shara and elsewhere never became part of the Tar Valon regime.

But if those Aes Sedai remembered what the Aiel were - and they did that - then it makes little sense that the Tar Valon girls would completely forget that.

There would be little to no change in the plot if the White Tower still knew about the Aiel and what they were but refused to reveal it. But the idea that they don't actually know is very odd.

Also, as I already said, it also strikes me as impossible that something like the connection between the Way of the Leaf and the Aiel would ever be forgotten. The Way of the Leaf remains a part of the public mind of people via the Tinkers ... but we are to believe that the Tinkers themselves and the world around them including the Aes Sedai should forget who used to follow the Way of the Leaf in the past?

7 hours ago, Maia said:

Yep, it is convenient that the arrow that wounded Perrin wasn't poisoned. Maybe they just do it to the swords, for some reason? Or maybe the swords aren't poisoned in traditional sense, but are somehow manufactured so that they have this effect and the arrowheads aren't worth the effort.

The Myrddraal swords are especially deadly, but the Trolloc weapons seem to contain mundane poison - which is common enough so that Moiraine immediately realizes what's going on with Tam.

This isn't something you can save. Jordan either forgot or didn't care what he established earlier. If he had thought about it he could have had Perrin's wolfish nature act fight and/or slow down the effects of the poison ... but there is nothing of that sort in the text, so that's nothing we can assume happened.

7 hours ago, Maia said:

Re: Siuan's deposition, IIRC there was a  mild ret-con where in TSR it seemed to be illegal* and she certainly thought in her PoV that she was entitled to a trial before stilling, but later it was somehow within the barest letter of the law. And yes, there was no justification whatsoever for doing the same to Leanne, who had no part in any of it, but it got completely glossed over, sigh. I guess that charges against Siuan were about concealing and abetting a male channeler and wilfully refusing to bring the Dragon Reborn under the White Tower's control.

I think what confuses me there is the idea that the head of state/government of the White Tower serving for life cannot, on her own, decide how to deal with a male channeler she thinks is the Dragon Reborn. Why do they have a ruler chosen for life if she cannot make such a decision on her own?

And regardless what we might assume Elaida and cronies presented to the other Sitters - which we don't know since the author didn't depict that scene - what Siuan did was, at best, misguided, but nothing against the White Tower or for the Shadow.

Up until Callandor she couldn't even be *completely sure* that Rand is the Dragon Reborn. And how should any of them ever know if they do not give him the opportunity to try and fulfill the prophecies?

7 hours ago, Maia said:

While I do think that Siuan was in a tight spot re: who to trust, because anybody except for Nyn and Egs could have been a DF, sending them on the BA hunt never made much sense to me.

Honestly, I don't see how Siuan could be certain that the girls and Moiraine weren't also Darkfriends. I mean, there are means to turn you against your will, and Moiraine was at the Eye with the gang where she encountered two Forsaken. They could have turned them all and Siuan would have had no way to know anything about that.

The Black Ajah hunt would have made sense if the girls had been part of a larger group of Aes Sedai consisting of sisters Siuan thought - perhaps wrongly - she could trust. That way the girls could have actually learned something during the missions.

7 hours ago, Maia said:

Unless Siuan just thought that they would be safer as a moving target than as sitting ducks in the WT. And Gawyn bullshit is largely on Elayne - she should have taken him along in the first place and she was the only qualified to judge his trustworthiness.

Nah, that idea makes little sense since Siuan clearly doesn't have a clue in what danger she herself is ... and the girls are not more important than she herself.

Yes, Elayne should have definitely trusted Gawyn. At least when she went on a mission THE SECOND TIME. Although, frankly, it would have made a lot of sense to take the boys even the first time around.

7 hours ago, Maia said:

Min's viewing were singularly unhelpful about the coup, presumably because the Pattern needed it to happen?

No idea why the Pattern would want something that's clearly a victory for the Dark One and something that causes considerable problems further down the road. 'The Pattern' might have only intervened when Min and Gawyn and Logain helped Siuan to escape ... in a manner that doesn't really make sense in a realistic scenario.

7 hours ago, Maia said:

I don't think that Siuan could have prevented it in any case, what with one fifth of the sisterhood being Black Ajah and a Forsaken camping in the Tower.

A fifth isn't that much, so one imagines that a full assembly of the Hall would have had a different outcome. The Blacks may have eventually murdered her, but if they had had the strength to depose her own her own they would have done so ... and then Alviarin or Mesaana herself would have been the next Amyrlin, not the moron Elaida.

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Had to take a break the last couple of days, but today I continued a little bit.

Bah, how regressive and backwards Jordan is can be drawn from the little things like, you know, the women not being able to draw the big and manly bows of the Emond Fielders (sassy Faile has to be kept in the dark about the fact that she, meek little girl that she is, can only use the bow of a boy). That hammers home the fact that basically no woman is strong enough to be a proper fighter. In fact, it even kind of sends the message that even the weakest man is stronger than the strongest woman, since the bows most likely were not designed that only the strongest men of Emond's Field can draw them.

And then the women actually - and I kid you not! - are part of the fighting force after the Trollocs have been attacking the village continuously for days. Instead, they continue to be good little house wife and heroically deceive the men about the fact that they are only eating half rations now since the manly men have to keep up their fighting strength.

Obviously the way to go here would be to have shifts and allow whatever men who want to help at home and recover somewhat to do that, while the more martial women man (pun intended) the defenses and shoot some Trollocs with the guys. Instead we celebrate the fact that we still aren't as savage as to allow/force our women to fight.

Other issue:

Does the Dream World continue to be little more than a plot device where people can meet and watch real places as if they were there? I must say, that this place is completely stupid so far. If you have it be a world which can depict the real world realistically ... then there should have been ways to affect or change things in the real world from the Dream World. Just having it as another world looking more or less like the real world feels strange.

Also, it is incredibly lazy for Jordan to make the Dream World basically the only place where the girls actually to 'investigate' something. And that's not really investigating but rather accidentally or randomly overhearing stuff they did not expect to overhear. Nynaeve randomly sees one of the Blacks torture the Panarch, and then she accidentally sees Moghedien and Birgitte randomly tells her who she is.

How Jordan deals with Moghedien is also rather telling. First she is introduced as this subtle super plotter - but even the way she manipulates the super girls is kind of stupid since she doesn't ask precise - something a character as cunning and subtle as this character is supposed to should have figured out centuries ago. I mean, if your powers of persuasion as strong as Moghedien's then she should have had the problem she had with Elayne/Nynaeve years ago - that people are so eager to please her that they don't get to tell her everything she might want to know.

I looked forward to the girls freeing themselves from Moghedien all by themselves - or having problems with her for quite some time. But, no. Jordan has to turn the subtle woman into a stupid girl.

Also - seriously, the domination band for male channelers is just in a museum and so far nobody figured out that this is a powerful ter'angreal? Weren't there never any Aes Sedai advisers/ambassadors in the palace of the Panarch?

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To be fair, most fantasy writers underestimate how much strength a proper longbow requires, and overestimate how heavy a sword is.

Faile wouldnt be able to use a proper Two Rivers longbow. I doubt we would either.

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27 minutes ago, Derfel Cadarn said:

 

Faile wouldnt be able to use a proper Two Rivers longbow. I doubt we would either.

Indeed. A hundred+ pound draw weight is no joke and needs significant training to manage, even for men.

If Faile trained, she could no doubt build the technique and muscle power to pull a lighter Two Rivers longbow, but the kinds made for adult men were probably going to be too heavy to be comfortably usable. 

This page tries to advise enthusiasts about the right bow weight for them, and groups women and strong boys together suggesting they'd have similar draw weights. Jordan's writing on this point was absolutely correct, it seems, but no great surprise in that, given his interest in military history.

Are the Shienarans and Saldaeans who use horse bows girly as well, I wonder?

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I don't think we have any reason to believe that the bows of the Emond's Fielders are super heavy longbows you need a lot of strength for.

These folks are not Englishmen humiliating France in the Hundred Years' War - they are backwater peasants and shepherds with no martial tradition at all. Yes, they have archery contests occasionally, but that recreational fun, not serious business.

Whatever bows they have should be of such size that the average male Emond's Fielder can draw them. And if the average male Emond's Fielder could draw them then some (not all) of the female Emond's Fielder should be able to do that, too. And that also go for the sassy outsider woman who clearly has had more training at arms - and more experience with martial situations - than the average Emond's Fielder. Sure, Faile's attitude doesn't mean she is competent at anything, but I don't think she is physically all that weak.

Faile must also be pretty stupid to not realize that she given a child's bow while all the other manly male archers she was interacting with had, supposedly, different bows.

The issue here isn't that there are different bows for people of different strength - which isn't what the novel talks about - but that it is crystal clear that the woman cannot possibly use a man's bow. And it is implied that all the men use men's bows while only boys would be using boys' bows.

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I think you're reaching here. WoT has no shortage of faults, but I'd have to say that the lack of longbow wokeness falls pretty far down on the list. 

Actually seems pretty reasonable to me that a small village of bumpkins wouldn't really have enlightened modern views of gender roles. 

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