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Lord Varys and the Wheel of Time (second attempt) #2


Lord Varys

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22 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I don't think we have any reason to believe that the bows of the Emond's Fielders are super heavy longbows you need a lot of strength for.

The longbows, the arrows, the shooting ranges -- they're all described in the books. They are pretty much exactly full-sized English longbows -- about 2+ meters tall unstrung -- made of yew and can throw clothyard arrows 400 paces/yards while still being able to pierce mail, which is what was recorded as a maximum distance for a war bow in the medieval era. 

It's not just the weight -- which at bare minimum at least 70 lbs to achieve the reported distance, twice what  is recommended for a woman and a third as much as most female archery enthusiasts manage to achieve after years of archery -- but the draw, as in how far you had to pull back the bow to maximal effect. Women tend to be shorter than men, and tend to have shorter draws thereby, and so a man's bow that needs a 30" draw at 70+ lbs of weight would simply be impossible to make use of. 

Jordan was simply right about this. A man's longbow would be too heavy and too tall for Faile to use. If you want to quibble about the idea that Perrin passed off a boy's longbow as being the same thing and Faile didn't realize, that's one thing, but the fact that Faile would actually need to use a boy's bow is 100% correct.

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Well, if they are described, it wasn't in the paragraph that annoyed me.

If we have to imagine the Emond's Fielders as using elite English longbow-like bows ... then this really clashes with the fact that those people have no martial culture at all since, apparently, the Trolloc Wars (although I expect that the region must have seen some action in Hawkwing's days and the war thereafter). And they are not all powerfully built tall guys who should be able to handle super bows.

I'm quite aware that size and strength do matter in this equation ... the issue just is that there would be quite a few men not strong enough for that job, just as there would be some women who could do it.

About Perrin's plot in that book:

I'm really pissed that the Whitecloaks ended up doing nothing against the Trollocs. How could that make sense? Their entire purpose is to fight against the Shadow, so if they actively do nothing they are not better than Darkfriends.

And how silly is the younger Bornhald's obsession with Perrin? They never even met before and Perrin is ta'veren, so shouldn't Bornhald and the others fall in line rather than view him as the Devil Incarnate?

Perrin figuring out the Luc was the Slayer makes little sense, actually. He doesn't look like the guy he shot in the dream and while he woke up and left at the same time as Perrin woke up ... the reports he gets don't indicate that Luc was injured by an arrow.

If the reports had said that Luc looked like he had an arrow wound it would make sense for Perrin to connect the dots there ... but the way it is the guy is way too smart than the characters in this series usually are.

I actually enjoyed the way the fight between Moghedien and Nynaeve was written. If you are into those magical duel things then Jordan is your guy. He can at least do that.

But I'm not happy with the outcome - Moghedien being defeated and captured was way too much for me. Nynaeve driving her away could have made sense. And what was that shit about Nynaeve taking her to Tar Valon for 'a trial'?! What are they going to try her for? Being a 3,000+ years old Satanist? The woman didn't commit any actual crimes in the present that we are aware of. She should have stilled or killed her, not handed her over to other people.

Then there is 'the revelation' that Moghedien is there simply by accident. She isn't in cahoots with the Black Ajah women at all. She also has no interest in the artifacts there. And then the silly info dump - yes, it is not completely impossible that Moghedien would be figure out stuff about the domination band - but would that be thing she would want to talk about when wanting to distract Nynaeve - and not, say, the beauty and terror of the Dark One, how his ultimate victory is inevitable, etc.?

And what's that about Elayne becoming Amathera's dominatrix? Can we not have a single female ruler who is actually competent? Do we need a girl who has been meek and mild up to that point humiliate an adult woman?

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18 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I'm really pissed that the Whitecloaks ended up doing nothing against the Trollocs. How could that make sense? Their entire purpose is to fight against the Shadow, so if they actively do nothing they are not better than Darkfriends.

Fascinating. You got to exactly where the author wants you to be, but somehow think this is a critique of the books?

It makes perfect sense to me. The Whitecloaks are in fact, not much better than Darkfriends. They're a few hairs and a Mordeth short of being a mobile Shadar Logoth. Their stated goals are lofty, their actual actions directly contradictory to those goals. They're meant to infuriate and frustrate. 

18 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

And how silly is the younger Bornhald's obsession with Perrin? They never even met before and Perrin is ta'veren, so shouldn't Bornhald and the others fall in line rather than view him as the Devil Incarnate?

Ta'veren doesn't work that way. It's a way to play with chance, and not a way to make things comfortable for the ta'veren. Bornhald and Byar's obsession with Perrin is required for some stuff that happens later between Perrin and the Whitecloaks. And that's all being ta'veren gets him, here. 

18 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

But I'm not happy with the outcome - Moghedien being defeated and captured was way too much for me. Nynaeve driving her away could have made sense. And what was that shit about Nynaeve taking her to Tar Valon for 'a trial'?! What are they going to try her for? Being a 3,000+ years old Satanist? The woman didn't commit any actual crimes in the present that we are aware of. She should have stilled or killed her, not handed her over to other people.

What are they going to try a confirmed Forsaken for? You do know that while a whole lot of details haven't survived, the fact that the Forsaken are mass murderers hasn't been forgotten,right? Not to mention that they betrayed the Light and the Aes Sedai order? There's probably a hundred different counts they could try her on. In their sleep. 

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5 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

Fascinating. You got to exactly where the author wants you to be, but somehow think this is a critique of the books?

It makes perfect sense to me. The Whitecloaks are in fact, not much better than Darkfriends. They're a few hairs and a Mordeth short of being a mobile Shadar Logoth. Their stated goals are lofty, their actual actions directly contradictory to those goals. They're meant to infuriate and frustrate. 

I get what the Whitecloaks are ... but it still makes no sense that the rank-and-file of the men would just stand there while thousands of Trollocs and dozen of Myrddraal are attacking a village they themselves are in right now? Do they think they will get away once the Emond's Fielders are overwhelmed?

Also, does it make sense that the average Whitecloak soldier would care more about a mortal Darkfriend than an actual army of Shadowspawn right in front of them? I don't think this can make sense in-universe.

5 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

Ta'veren doesn't work that way. It's a way to play with chance, and not a way to make things comfortable for the ta'veren. Bornhald and Byar's obsession with Perrin is required for some stuff that happens later between Perrin and the Whitecloaks. And that's all being ta'veren gets him, here. 

Nah, Perrin and Rand become 'lords' and stuff because they are ta'veren. People view them differently, in accordance with the way the Pattern wants them to be seen. The Pattern wouldn't have any interest in some random people - and the younger Bornhald is just a random dude to Perrin - developing an irrational hatred of a ta'veren.

We can expect that Fain develops something like that - he was directly touched by the Shadow and stuff - but Bornhald isn't.

It is rather obvious that this plotline is dragged along because it is supposed to have repercussions in the future ... but there would have been a lot of better ways to do it.

5 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

What are they going to try a confirmed Forsaken for? You do know that while a whole lot of details haven't survived, the fact that the Forsaken are mass murderers hasn't been forgotten,right? Not to mention that they betrayed the Light and the Aes Sedai order? There's probably a hundred different counts they could try her on. In their sleep. 

Well, for one there would be problems of jurisdiction. Do you think modern Italy could try Augustus for his role in the proscriptions if showed up tomorrow?

With Moghedien being a sly one I'd actually be surprised if there was much incriminating evidence in the first place.

This raises the question whether it is an actual crime to be a Darkfriend in this world? If I just say may prayers to the Dark One every day but never commit any actual crimes who are the authorities to persecute me? Up until Nynaeve clashed with Moghedien she had done nothing to anyone yet.

Been through the book now:

The finale wasn't that bad, but of course it made no sense that Rand could catch up with Asmodean in light of the guy's headstart. What was he doing while Rand was listening to all those speeches? And, man, was the blatant stealing from Lynch's Dune finale (the rainstorm) bad. Also, one really grows tired of the finale always being the same. Randmagically remembering magics he has no clue under normal circumstances. Oh, and Rand 'planned the whole thing since Tear'? Riiight! That's why you moron didn't realize the fucking gleeman who was constantly talking to you was a Forsaken who desperately wanted you to realize this and pardon you in exchange for your help.

The Aiel not being able to accept that they weren't always warriors is also a stretch. People just don't behave in this manner - they don't get mad because they are mistaken about their very distant ancestors. And the petty sadism and desire to dominate isn't just a thing of 'the decadent Aes Sedai' but basically something all women have in common. We see it very well with the Aiel Wise Women, but literally all women feel a need to do this. I think it is Faile who tells Perrin when and how to sleep - something that's not her business, ever.

The Prologue of the next book isn't that bad, at least the whole Forsaken meeting run by Lanfear. She actually appears competent for once (unlike when she rambles on about Isendre in TSR) but the Aes Sedai meeting is indeed laughable. What caricatures those people are, like children in kindergarden. Also, it confirms that Elaida had no clue about Rand when she deposed Siuan - she only learned about the Dragon Reborn from Siuan when she was tortured. This means whatever the pretext for the coup was ... it obviously weren't actual mistakes or crimes on Siuan's part.

But the worst part is that Padan Fain shows up and is actually reveived by Elaida. THAT FUCKING GUY IS A CONFIRMED DARKFRIEND!!! Siuan and her retinue were at Fal Dara, they know about him. Are we to believe that the fucking people who keep the Horn of Valere in their vaults do not know the fucking name of the guy who recently stole it???!!! You really cannot take this shit seriously.

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On 1/20/2022 at 3:48 PM, Lord Varys said:

 

The Aiel not being able to accept that they weren't always warriors is also a stretch. People just don't behave in this manner - they don't get mad because they are mistaken about their very distant ancestors. And the petty sadism and desire to dominate isn't just a thing of 'the decadent Aes Sedai' but basically something all women have in common. We see it very well with the Aiel Wise Women, but literally all women feel a need to do this. I think it is Faile who tells Perrin when and how to sleep - something that's not her business, ever.

 

southerns refuse to believe their ancestors were traitors to america, and have gone batshit crazy about their racist past, so yes i do see people not acting rationally about their ancestors

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14 hours ago, oberonus said:

southerns refuse to believe their ancestors were traitors to america, and have gone batshit crazy about their racist past, so yes i do see people not acting rationally about their ancestors

That isn't a fitting comparison - you talk about the outcome of a war. I mean, that this was actually treason was in part a result of the outcome of the war. A more fitting comparison would be the Southerners claiming/not believing their ancestors were slavers.

But the comparison is still way off in principle since we talk about things that are in the very distant past - over 3,000 years, in fact - and no realistic human culture would be devastated that their distant ancestors didn't actually do what they thought they did.

The American Civil War took place barely 150 years ago.

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I'm actually enjoying book 5 pretty much right now, in part because I've finally reach unknown territory. For instance, I thoroughly enjoyed the attack of the evil hounds and Rand's exchanges with Asmodean.

And I've to put things into perspective here - it is Leane who gets completely unbearable after her stilling, not so much Siuan - although Bryne's weird obsession with Siuan's fake identity already got annoying.

That said - Jordan is still a very bad writer, continuing to write basically the same novel over and over again, at least structurally. For the fourth time now we get the same basic setup - a prologue far away featuring some villains, followed by the gang sitting in the same place not talking to each other but talking about each other separately, with a big thing being one friend visiting another (!!!) (Perrin visiting Rand in TSR, Rand visiting Mat in book 5), followed by a sudden attack of the bad guys. That's basically a complete rehash of the early plot of TSR.

Also, folks continue to be completely unrealistic morons. We can kind of accept that Rand ended up taking Asmodean as his tutor (although that's pretty risky since it could be an elaborate triple agent scheme on part of the Dark One) since he really has to learn stuff about channeling (although I'd say a Forsaken actually changing sides could have been a much more interesting plot!) but this idea that the moron actually has to keep up with the Darkfriends Isendre and Kadere is other nonsense. Not only did apparently nobody realize that the fat Keille disappeared, Rand could have easily found ways to rid himself of those people without actually accusing them of being Darkfriends. Lanfear's 'schemes' against Isendre could have been the basis for this.

But it is also quite clear that Rand could just have grabbed these two, dragged them through a gate, to drop them off thousands of miles away if he didn't want to kill them.

The whining about Moiraine's evil manipulations (which are actually nowhere to be seen) continues to annoy, too, not to mention the ridiculousness that are the Wise Women of the Aiel. And Aviendha's silly 'romance' with Rand also makes no sense.

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The super girls are a joke, really. Now they were drugged again - I lost count how often in the series they walked into an obvious trap - and saved by their alleged superfluous male companions - who, so far, are the only ones who do any real investigative work.

And how stupid can they be to actually think it is a great idea for Aes Sedai girls to cross Amadicia? I mean, seriously, why not take a detour through the Blight while you are at it?

And the herbwife is the Aes Sedai in the Amdician village? Right, as if such people would not be main suspects for something like that on the Whitecloaks' own turf.

So she sends one message to Tar Valon, another one west - which I assume means she also works for the Seanchan, right? - and the guy copying her letter after the fact would then be the Darkfriend, no?

The Dream World investigation stuff was a drag - Nynaeve and Egwene both appeared like completely morons to not consider the possibility that a new Amyrlin is the explanation why the Amyrlin's room looks different.

And I can barely suffer the humiliation/domination game anymore. All that talk about how Nynaeve spanked and tortured Egwene just a couple of years back (with that disgusting tea) ... and then the author doesn't have the grace (or the mental health) to actually problematize that behavior and have the characters grow by understanding that this kind of abusive behavior is bad. No, Egwene and Elayne can only come into their own by being rude and abusive to Nynaeve.

I found her attitude so far silly, but I don't want to read how the girls turn the table on her and give her some of her own medicine (nearly quite literally with that tea).

Jordan's take on the character of Galad is also a joke. So the guy got a book and the next time we meet him he is already a Whitecloak? No actual character development on screen? What a sad take. I expected more here, especially since people complain the plot slows down more and more as the series progresses, so I thought we might get his POV and stuff to see how he becomes a Whitecloak.

The very idea that a guy with Galad's rigid moral compass would join an institution whose members would just stand there and watch while a bunch of innocents is slaughtered by actual Shadowspawn is also laughable. Not to mention that one can also not see Galad rounding up random people and accusing them of being Darkfriends. Since that seems to be what the Children are doing pretty much all the time it is very weird that he joined them and remained with them after he realized what they are doing. Which he would have about five minutes after he joined.

The whole Shaido plot strikes me as completely pointless. So the Shaido leader guy, Couladin, marches his people to Cairhien. Big deal. His Randness has learned to teleport now, and he is the most powerful male channeler. I suggest you find out where exactly Couladin is (Dream World investigation, perhaps?), then you teleport your ass over there, and you kill him, publicly, in front of his followers. End of plotline.

Following the Shaido with your army is completely unnecessary.

Moiraine not caring about Siuan's fate was a shitty take on her character.

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Oh, and why does Elayne have to sort of have the hots for Thom?! That's just plain weird. I guess Jordan cannot establish a platonic mentor relationship between a young woman and an older man.

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