Dorne for Daenerys, the Dayne Heiress.

[AlaskanSandman]

So I would like to talk about Dorne and their plan through ASOIAF, and their actions to align with Daenerys. Along with their apparent disregard for Jon Snow. This will tie into the Tower of Joy, and Rhaegar's plan. Along with Olenna Tyrell, Mance Rayder, and Harrenhal. The wandering is important though.

 

The Dayne Heiress

If you're not familiar with the idea of Daenerys being a Dayne. It stems from multiple clues. Not just her name being a homophone for Dayne Heiress, Daenerys. It's also tied to other clues, such as Barristan thinking she has Ashara's eyes, but that Ashara's daughter had been still born.

 

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A Dance with Dragons - The Kingbreaker

If I had been a better knight … if I had unhorsed the prince in that last tilt, as I unhorsed so many others, it would have been for me to choose the queen of love and beauty …

Rhaegar had chosen Lyanna Stark of Winterfell. Barristan Selmy would have made a different choice. Not the queen, who was not present. Nor Elia of Dorne, though she was good and gentle; had she been chosen, much war and woe might have been avoided. His choice would have been a young maiden not long at court, one of Elia's companions … though compared to Ashara Dayne, the Dornish princess was a kitchen drab.

Even after all these years, Ser Barristan could still recall Ashara's smile, the sound of her laughter. He had only to close his eyes to see her, with her long dark hair tumbling about her shoulders and those haunting purple eyes. Daenerys has the same eyes. Sometimes when the queen looked at him, he felt as if he were looking at Ashara's daughter …

 

 

 

 

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A Game of Thrones - Daenerys IX

"… the dragon …"

And saw her brother Rhaegar, mounted on a stallion as black as his armor. Fire glimmered red through the narrow eye slit of his helm. "The last dragon," Ser Jorah's voice whispered faintly. "The last, the last." Dany lifted his polished black visor. The face within was her own.

After that, for a long time, there was only the pain, the fire within her, and the whisperings of stars.

 

 

 

There is also Daenerys seeing herself as Rhaegar.

 

Then there is the issue of Quiathe, telling Daenerys to remember who she is, and Quaithe being tied to stars.

 

 

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A Dance with Dragons - Daenerys X

Then she saw. Her mask is made of starlight.

"Remember who you are, Daenerys," the stars whispered in a woman's voice. "The dragons know. Do you?"

 

 

 

So aside from Quaithe telling Daenerys to remember who she is, there is the issue of her memories not aligning with what we are told by other characters. Namely, Braavos and the Lemon Trees in the house with a Red Door. Where Arya tells us there are no trees in Braavos and that the weather was not pleasant. 

 

 

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A Feast for Crows - Arya I

. They have no trees, she realized. Braavos is all stone, a grey city in a green sea.

 

 

 

 

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A Feast for Crows - Cat Of The Canals

. Braavos only had three kinds of weather; fog was bad, rain was worse, and freezing rain was worst. But every so often would come a morning when the dawn broke pink and blue and the air was sharp and salty. Those were the days that Cat loved best.

 

 

 

Then else where we are told citrus in Westeros only grows normally in the Reach, Stormlands, and Dorne. Which, none are of the same latitude as Braavos. With Dorne being associated with citrus fruit the most. 

 

With House Dalt of Lemon Wood accompanying  Oberyn Martell to K.L.

 

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A Storm of Swords - Tyrion V

"There's a purple flag with yellow balls."

"Lemons?" Pod said hopefully. "A purple field strewn with lemons? For House Dalt? Of, of Lemonwood."

 

 

 

There is also the many reference to citrus

 

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A Feast for Crows - The Captain Of Guards

There children frolicked naked in the sun, music played in tiled courtyards, and the air was sharp with the smell of lemons and blood oranges. 

 

 

 

 

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A Feast for Crows - The Captain Of Guards

. Others farther back let fly with lemons, limes, and oranges, crying "War! War! To the spears!" One of the guards was hit in the eye with a lemon, and the captain himself had an orange splatter off his foot.

 

 

 

Though its worth mentioning Lem Lemonwood, believed to be Ser Richard Lonmouth of the Stromlands. With House LonMouths' sigil being those of "Skulls and kisses" with Lem Lemonwood giving kisses to the Ghost of Highheart, who is likely the Wood's Witch who came with Jenny of Old Stones to K.L. during Aegon V's rule. We will come back to him though.

 

So we have Quiathe, telling Daenerys to "remember" who she is, while Quiathe is associated with Stars, as is House Dayne of Starfall whose sigil is a falling star. House Dayne is in Dorne, where House Martell, and House Dalt of Lemonwood is. 

 

 

 House Martell

 

Now, lets talk directly about House Martell of Dorne. House Martell of Dorne was wed to the crown via Elia Martell of Dorne to Rhaegar Targaryen. An act that greatly angered Tywin Lannister.

 

 

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A Storm of Swords - Tyrion X

"Cersei and Jaime."

"Such a clever dwarf. Elia and I were older, to be sure. Your brother and sister could not have been more than eight or nine. Still, a difference of five or six years is little enough. And there was an empty cabin on our ship, a very nice cabin, such as might be kept for a person of high birth. As if it were intended that we take someone back to Sunspear. A young page, perhaps. Or a companion for Elia. Your lady mother meant to betroth Jaime to my sister, or Cersei to me. Perhaps both."

 

 

 

 

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A Storm of Swords - Tyrion X

"It was. Even you can see that, surely?"

"Oh, surely." It all goes back and back, Tyrion thought, to our mothers and fathers and theirs before them. We are puppets dancing on the strings of those who came before us, and one day our own children will take up our strings and dance on in our steads. "Well, Prince Rhaegar married Elia of Dorne, not Cersei Lannister of Casterly Rock. So it would seem your mother won that tilt."

"She thought so," Prince Oberyn agreed, "but your father is not a man to forget such slights. He taught that lesson to Lord and Lady Tarbeck once, and to the Reynes of Castamere. And at King's Landing, he taught it to my sister. My helm, Dagos." Manwoody handed it to him; a high golden helm with a copper disk mounted on the brow, the sun of Dorne. The visor had been removed, Tyrion saw. "Elia and her children have waited long for justice." Prince Oberyn pulled on soft red leather gloves, and took up his spear again. "But this day they shall have it."

 

 

It is pretty well known that Tywin had Elia murdered along with her children Rhaenys and Aegon. Setting House Martell and Lannister even more against each other.

 

House Martell was particularly close to the Throne through Rhaegar and Elia Martell. With Lewyn Martell being said to be one of Rhaegar's closest companions. Of which we are told that Rhaegar had 6 close companions, of which accompanied him to the Riverlands to allegedly kidnap Lyanna. This act is what set off the War and Roberts rebellion, and its based around the assumption that Rhaegar fell for Lyanna, because she was the Knight of the Laughing Tree (Of which the only typical theory for elsewise, is that Eddard was the Knight). With Ashara Dayne "turning to Stark" afterwards. Mixed in with tales of Eddard meeting Ashara and being into her, but somehow dishonoring the Dornish woman. These assumptions have been the guiding assumptions most readers have made. Leading many to believe, that Rhaegar and Lyanna are the parents of Jon Snow.

 

This how ever makes no sense, and would mean that Lyanna isn't interested in Robert for being a cheater, but would be interested in a married man. It also doesn't fit the Martell support and actions we seen through the story. So lets break some of this down, as we show through Martell actions, that Daenerys is the child of Rheagar and Ashara Danye. 

 

So lets begin with Rhaegar's closest friends. The closest of which we are told, is Arthur Dayne, brother to Ashara Dayne. Then there is Lewyn Martell, the grand uncle of his wife. This alone puts two major houses of Dorne in alignment with Rhaegar. Then there is Myles Mooton, and Richard Lonmouth, Rheagar's squires, and Rhaegar's friend he squired with, Jon Connington. Last of which is Oswell Whent.  These are Rhaegar's 6 closest friends. 

 

How likely is it, that Lewyn Martell would accompany Rhaegar in disrespecting Elia, by kidnapping Lyanna with Rhaegar so he can divorce Elia for Lyanna and have a baby with her? Lyanna, who is of the North, where it would be a dishonor to sleep with her before marriage, or have a child with her. Its also a dishonor to House Stark by kidnapping her. As opposed to Houses of Dorne, who have paramours, and or are paramours. Arianne has slept around and she is not married. 

 

Now, most of these men are reported dead after the war, except for 2. Jon Connington who is off with F/Aegon, the alleged son of Rhaegar. While the other, is Richard Lonmouth, believed to be Lem Lemonwood. Who is running around with the Brotherhood with out Banners. Led by Beric Dondarion, whose house is loyal to the crown, and who is engaged to Alliria Dayne. With Edric Dayne as his squire. So we have Rhaegar's friend, still running with House Dayne, and the Brotherhood with out Banners being made up of men with ties to Rhaegar. Though Edric connects Eddard Stark, who must have done something good for House Dayne after killing Arthur Dayne and returning his sword, and possibly coming to House Dayne with a baby. One most assume is Jon, by Lyanna. Assuming Rhaegar took Lyanna far from her home to the South, where no Starks could find her. Though, Dorne is home to Ashara, so it's somewhere she would feel safe. Especially if her brother Arthur, is guarding her.

 

Yet one must ask, who was Rhaegar going to crown queen of love and beauty before he supposedly met Lyanna and crowned her instead. He was going to crown Ashara Dayne, who was dishonored by him crowning Lyanna Stark. Causing Ashara to look to "Stark" as she was crowned.

 

 

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A Dance with Dragons - The Kingbreaker

Even after all these years, Ser Barristan could still recall Ashara's smile, the sound of her laughter. He had only to close his eyes to see her, with her long dark hair tumbling about her shoulders and those haunting purple eyes. Daenerys has the same eyes. Sometimes when the queen looked at him, he felt as if he were looking at Ashara's daughter …

But Ashara's daughter had been stillborn, and his fair lady had thrown herself from a tower soon after, mad with grief for the child she had lost, and perhaps for the man who had dishonored her at Harrenhal as well. She died never knowing that Ser Barristan had loved her. How could she? He was a knight of the Kingsguard, sworn to celibacy. No good could have come from telling her his feelings. No good came from silence either. If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, might she have looked to me instead of Stark?

He would never know. But of all his failures, none haunted Barristan Selmy so much as that.

 

 

 

So if Rheagar didn't kidnap Lyanna, then why did he crown her the Queen of Love and Beauty?

 

Because some one else was competing to crown Lyanna, and to get that man to step down. Rhaegar agreed to crown Lyanna, as he just needed to be seen as strong and a good warrior. That man, was the Knight of the Laughing Tree.

The Blue Rose of Mance

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A Storm of Swords - Bran II

Bran nodded sagely. Mystery knights would oft appear at tourneys, with helms concealing their faces, and shields that were either blank or bore some strange device. Sometimes they were famous champions in disguise. The Dragonknight once won a tourney as the Knight of Tears, so he could name his sister the queen of love and beauty in place of the king's mistress. And Barristan the Bold twice donned a mystery knight's armor, the first time when he was only ten. "It was the little crannogman, I bet."

"No one knew," said Meera, "but the mystery knight was short of stature, and clad in ill-fitting armor made up of bits and pieces. The device upon his shield was a heart tree of the old gods, a white weirwood with a laughing red face."

 

 

 

Where Meera repeatedly calls the Knight a guy by her pronouns. She also tells us he has a booming voice.

 

 

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A Storm of Swords - Bran II

"The porcupine knight, the pitchfork knight, and the knight of the twin towers." Bran had heard enough stories to know that. "He was the little crannogman, I told you."

"Whoever he was, the old gods gave strength to his arm. The porcupine knight fell first, then the pitchfork knight, and lastly the knight of the two towers. None were well loved, so the common folk cheered lustily for the Knight of the Laughing Tree, as the new champion soon was called. When his fallen foes sought to ransom horse and armor, the Knight of the Laughing Tree spoke in a booming voice through his helm, saying, 'Teach your squires honor, that shall be ransom enough.' Once the defeated knights chastised their squires sharply, their horses and armor were returned. And so the little crannogman's prayer was answered . . . by the green men, or the old gods, or the children of the forest, who can say?"

 

 

 

aside from these details, she gives us a clue as to who the Knight is.

 

 

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A Storm of Swords - Bran II

A black brother spoke, asking the knights to join the Night's Watch.

 

 

 

Mance Rayder was the Knight of the Laughing Tree. As Mance was a Black Brother at that time, and Mance tells Melisandre that he's tasted Dornishman's wives and drank summerwines.

 

 

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A Dance with Dragons - Melisandre I

"I've sung my songs, fought my battles, drunk summer wine, tasted the Dornishman's wife. A man should die the way he's lived. For me that's steel in hand."

 

 

 

With summerwine not being found in the North, Tyrion has to bring his own from the South.

 

 

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A Game of Thrones - Tyrion II

On the eighteenth night of their journey, the wine was a rare sweet amber from the Summer Isles that he had brought all the way north from Casterly Rock, and the book a rumination on the history and properties of dragons. With Lord Eddard Stark's permission, Tyrion had borrowed a few rare volumes from the Winterfell library and packed them for the ride north.

 

 

 

Mance then sings it to his son, Jon Snow, when he first meets him in an odd encounter.

 

 

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A Storm of Swords - Jon I

But what does it matter, for all men must die,

and I've tasted the Dornishman's wife!"

As the last strains of "The Dornishman's Wife" faded, the bald earless man glanced up from his map and scowled ferociously at Rattleshirt and Ygritte, with Jon between them. "What's this?" he said. "A crow?"

"The black bastard what gutted Orell," said Rattleshirt, "and a bloody warg as well."

"You were to kill them all."

"This one come over," explained Ygritte. "He slew Qhorin Halfhand with his own hand."

"This boy?" The earless man was angered by the news. "The Halfhand should have been mine. Do you have a name, crow?"

"Jon Snow, Your Grace." He wondered whether he was expected to bend the knee as well.

"Your Grace?" The earless man looked at the big white-bearded one. "You see. He takes me for a king."

The bearded man laughed so hard he sprayed bits of chicken everywhere. He rubbed the grease from his mouth with the back of a huge hand. "A blind boy, must be. Who ever heard of a king without ears? Why, his crown would fall straight down to his neck! Har!" He grinned at Jon, wiping his fingers clean on his breeches. "Close your beak, crow. Spin yourself around, might be you'd find who you're looking for."

Jon turned.

The singer rose to his feet. "I'm Mance Rayder," he said as he put aside the lute. "And you are Ned Stark's bastard, the Snow of Winterfell."

Stunned, Jon stood speechless for a moment, before he recovered enough to say, "How . . . how could you know . . ."

"That's a tale for later," said Mance Rayder. "How did you like the song, lad?"

"Well enough. I'd heard it before."

"But what does it matter, for all men must die," the King-beyond-the-Wall said lightly, "and I've tasted the Dornishman's wife. Tell me, does my Lord of Bones speak truly? Did you slay my old friend the Halfhand?"

 

 

 

So the song ends, and after an awkwardly long time after the song ends, Mance brings it back up to Jon, reciting the part of tasting Dornishman's wives'

 

Why would Mance being interested in taking a Stark woman? Because legend of becoming King Beyond the Wall demands it, the legend of Bael the Bard.

 

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A Storm of Swords - Jon I

"Bael the Bard," said Jon, remembering the tale that Ygritte had told him in the Frostfangs, the night he'd almost killed her.

"Would that I were. I will not deny that Bael's exploit inspired mine own . . . but I did not steal either of your sisters that I recall. Bael wrote his own songs, and lived them. I only sing the songs that better men have made. More mead?"

 

 

 

 

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A Clash of Kings - Jon VI

Stonesnake gave a snort. "A murderer, robber, and raper, is what you mean."

"That's all in where you're standing too," Ygritte said. "The Stark in Winterfell wanted Bael's head, but never could take him, and the taste o' failure galled him. One day in his bitterness he called Bael a craven who preyed only on the weak. When word o' that got back, Bael vowed to teach the lord a lesson. So he scaled the Wall, skipped down the kingsroad, and walked into Winterfell one winter's night with harp in hand, naming himself Sygerrik of Skagos. Sygerrik means 'deceiver' in the Old Tongue, that the First Men spoke, and the giants still speak."

"North or south, singers always find a ready welcome, so Bael ate at Lord Stark's own table, and played for the lord in his high seat until half the night was gone. The old songs he played, and new ones he'd made himself, and he played and sang so well that when he was done, the lord offered to let him name his own reward. 'All I ask is a flower,' Bael answered, 'the fairest flower that blooms in the gardens o' Winterfell.'"

"Now as it happened the winter roses had only then come into bloom, and no flower is so rare nor precious. So the Stark sent to his glass gardens and commanded that the most beautiful o' the winter roses be plucked for the singer's payment. And so it was done. But when morning come, the singer had vanished . . . and so had Lord Brandon's maiden daughter. Her bed they found empty, but for the pale blue rose that Bael had left on the pillow where her head had lain."

Jon had never heard this tale before. "Which Brandon was this supposed to be? Brandon the Builder lived in the Age of Heroes, thousands of years before Bael. There was Brandon the Burner and his father Brandon the Shipwright, but—"

"This was Brandon the Daughterless," Ygritte said sharply. "Would you hear the tale, or no?"

He scowled. "Go on."

"Lord Brandon had no other children. At his behest, the black crows flew forth from their castles in the hundreds, but nowhere could they find any sign o' Bael or this maid. For most a year they searched, till the lord lost heart and took to his bed, and it seemed as though the line o' Starks was at its end. But one night as he lay waiting to die, Lord Brandon heard a child's cry. He followed the sound and found his daughter back in her bedchamber, asleep with a babe at her breast."

"Bael had brought her back?"

"No. They had been in Winterfell all the time, hiding with the dead beneath the castle. The maid loved Bael so dearly she bore him a son, the song says . . . though if truth be told, all the maids love Bael in them songs he wrote. Be that as it may, what's certain is that Bael left the child in payment for the rose he'd plucked unasked, and that the boy grew to be the next Lord Stark. So there it is—you have Bael's blood in you, same as me."

"It never happened," Jon said.

She shrugged. "Might be it did, might be it didn't. It is a good song, though. My mother used to sing it to me. She was a woman too, Jon Snow. Like yours." She rubbed her throat where his dirk had cut her. "The song ends when they find the babe, but there is a darker end to the story. Thirty years later, when Bael was King-beyond-the-Wall and led the free folk south, it was young Lord Stark who met him at the Frozen Ford . . . and killed him, for Bael would not harm his own son when they met sword to sword."

"So the son slew the father instead," said Jon.

 

 

 

So, not only do we see this story mirrored in Jon's life, with Mance taking Lyanna, fathering Jon in the Crypts of Winterfell, and then later becoming King Beyond the Wall and fighting Jon. With Jon killing Mance (A glamoured Rattleshirt). We also get an explanation for where Rhaegar got the BlueWinter Roses from suddenly in a pinch. As he was not expecting to meet or crown Lyanna. This would also explain where Mance got the Red silk from, as he claims a random woman found an Asshai ship washed up on the West side of Westeros, and mended him and his cloak after he was hunting a stag (Baratheon) and was attacked by a lion (Lannisters).

 

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A Storm of Swords - Jon I

"A cloak?"

"The black wool cloak of a Sworn Brother of the Night's Watch," said the King-beyond-the-Wall. "One day on a ranging we brought down a fine big elk. We were skinning it when the smell of blood drew a shadow-cat out of its lair. I drove it off, but not before it shredded my cloak to ribbons. Do you see? Here, here, and here?" He chuckled. "It shredded my arm and back as well, and I bled worse than the elk. My brothers feared I might die before they got me back to Maester Mullin at the Shadow Tower, so they carried me to a wildling village where we knew an old wisewoman did some healing. She was dead, as it happened, but her daughter saw to me. Cleaned my wounds, sewed me up, and fed me porridge and potions until I was strong enough to ride again. And she sewed up the rents in my cloak as well, with some scarlet silk from Asshai that her grandmother had pulled from the wreck of a cog washed up on the Frozen Shore. It was the greatest treasure she had, and her gift to me." He swept the cloak back over his shoulders. "But at the Shadow Tower, I was given a new wool cloak from stores, black and black, and trimmed with black, to go with my black breeches and black boots, my black doublet and black mail. The new cloak had no frays nor rips nor tears . . . and most of all, no red. The men of the Night's Watch dressed in black, Ser Denys Mallister reminded me sternly, as if I had forgotten. My old cloak was fit for burning now, he said.

 

 

 

 

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A Feast for Crows - Cersei V

Seventeen and new to knighthood, Rhaegar Targaryen had worn black plate over golden ringmail when he cantered onto the lists. Long streamers of red and gold and orange silk had floated behind his helm, like flames.

 

 

We also see that before Mance took Lyanna, Tormund, who was planning to be King of Beyond the Wall, also took a southerner to prove him self. He took Maege Mormont the "She Bear" and fathered Alysane Mormont with her. As Alysane has Tormunds crooked toothed smile. 

 

 

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A Storm of Swords - Jon II

"Are all crows so curious?" asked Tormund. "Well, here's a tale for you. It were another winter, colder even than the one I spent inside that giant, and snowing day and night, snowflakes as big as your head, not these little things. It snowed so hard the whole village was half buried. I was in me Ruddy Hall, with only a cask o' mead to keep me company and nothing to do but drink it. The more I drank the more I got to thinking about this woman lived close by, a fine strong woman with the biggest pair of teats you ever saw. She had a temper on her, that one, but oh, she could be warm too, and in the deep of winter a man needs his warmth.

"The more I drank the more I thought about her, and the more I thought the harder me member got, till I couldn't suffer it no more. Fool that I was, I bundled meself up in furs from head to heels, wrapped a winding wool around me face, and set off to find her. The snow was coming down so hard I got turned around once or twice, and the wind blew right through me and froze me bones, but finally I come on her, all bundled up like I was.

"The woman had a terrible temper, and she put up quite the fight when I laid hands on her. It was all I could do to carry her home and get her out o' them furs, but when I did, oh, she was hotter even than I remembered, and we had a fine old time, and then I went to sleep. Next morning when I woke the snow had stopped and the sun was shining, but I was in no fit state to enjoy it. All ripped and torn I was, and half me member bit right off, and there on me floor was a she-bear's pelt. And soon enough the free folk were telling tales o' this bald bear seen in the woods, with the queerest pair o' cubs behind her. Har!" He slapped a meaty thigh. "Would that I could find her again. She was fine to lay with, that bear. Never was a woman gave me such a fight, nor such strong sons neither."

"What could you do if you did find her?" Jon asked, smiling. "You said she bit your member off."

 

 

 

So Tormund had two kids with her, and Mance Rayder needed to out do Tormund to become King. So, How do you prove your worth against this?

 

You go even deeper south, and you steal an actual Stark, while leaving behind the infamous Blue Rose.

 

 

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A Game of Thrones - Eddard XV

When he thought of his daughters, he would have wept gladly, but the tears would not come. Even now, he was a Stark of Winterfell, and his grief and his rage froze hard inside him.

When he kept very still, his leg did not hurt so much, so he did his best to lie unmoving. For how long he could not say. There was no sun and no moon. He could not see to mark the walls. Ned closed his eyes and opened them; it made no difference. He slept and woke and slept again. He did not know which was more painful, the waking or the sleeping. When he slept, he dreamed: dark disturbing dreams of blood and broken promises. 

 

 

 

With Eddard thinking of "broken promises" when Jon Snow is safe at the Wall, and Robert Baratheon is dead. The only person not safe, is Daenerys. Who he failed to protect against the assassins' sent by the council. Risking his life to quit as hand in defense of her.

 

Back to the Martells.

 

So, all of this was a long but needed set up to explain Harrenhal, and what had some what happened. With Mance Rayder tricking Rhaegar into giving the Crown to Lyanna, to get him to step down as the Mystery Knight. Rheagar likely didn't know the legend of the insult it would be to the Starks. Rhaegar though, leaves K.L. after the Tourney with his 6 closest friends including Arthur Dayne, and Lewyn Martell, to head South into Dorne, where he fathered Daenerys upon Ashara Dayne. With Daenerys' true name likely being Visenya based on Rhaegar's other children's names. Daenerys, being a nod to her actual lineage as a homophone.

 

With these events set up, we then have Roberts Rebellion which saw the death of Elia and her children to Tywin Lannister and the death of Rheagar to Robert Baratheon.

 

So lets look at the Martell's actions to support Daenerys through the books, and how they give no support to Jon, and actually are willing to kill him. Suggesting through their ties to Rhaegar, that they know Daenerys is his child, not Jon. Who they offer absolutely no help to, ever.

 

So we have discussed how Lewyn and Arthur were close and both were close to Rhaegar. With Lewyn being Elia's uncle, and Arthur being Ashara's sister, and all coming from Dorne. We also have Richard Lonmouth running with Edric Dayne, and Beric, who is tied to Alliria Dayne. 

 

Some other notable connections come through Oberyn. First though, there is Doran trying to wed Arianne to Viserys, as the plan must have been to pass Daenerys off as Rhaellas' kid instead. Even though she had 5 miscarriages in 15 years in between the birth of Rhaegar, and that of Viserys. (She was around 38 at the time of her death, so not old. Most likely poisoned by Maester Pycell, who was working for Tywin Lannister.). So the odds of her being Rhaella's are slim to none. Or, Ashara's baby was accidentally grabbed by Darry, not knowing that Rhaella's kid was stillborn. Causing an unintended mix up.

 

Doran then tries to wed Quentyn to Daenerys though.

 

At no point, does Doran ever try to wed Ariane to Jon Snow, or support Jon in any way. All his focus seems to be on Viserys and Daenerys, until later hearing about Aegon.

 

So lets talk Oberyn Martell, who has the deepest connections as his oldest daughter was fathered upon an Old town whore. With Oberyn's 3rd being with a septa. This puts Oberyn in Old Town where he makes some important connections we see play out through his daughter Sarella who he had with a Swan Ship captain. 

 

Sarella is Alleras at Old Town working with Mawyn, who trained Mirri Maz Dur, and knows Qyburn. Mirri Maz Dur, who crosses paths with Dany and is some how connected to the hatching of the dragons.

 

Qyburn we meet through the Brave Companions, otherwise known as the Bloody mummers. Best known for taking Jamie Lannisters sword hand. Something that greatly cripples House Lannister. Qyburn helps to heal Jamie gaining the trust of Cersei, who he then gets close to.

 

 

Quote

 

A Dance with Dragons - The Prince of Winterfell

She might have said more, but then she saw the maesters. Three of them had entered together by the lord's door behind the dais—one tall, one plump, one very young, but in their robes and chains they were three grey peas from a black pod. Before the war, Medrick had served Lord Hornwood, Rhodry Lord Cerwyn, and young Henly Lord Slate. Roose Bolton had brought them all to Winterfell to take charge of Luwin's ravens, so messages might be sent and received from here again.

As Maester Medrick went to one knee to whisper in Bolton's ear, Lady Dustin's mouth twisted in distaste. "If I were queen, the first thing I would do would be to kill all those grey rats. They scurry everywhere, living on the leavings of the lords, chittering to one another, whispering in the ears of their masters. But who are the masters and who are the servants, truly? Every great lord has his maester, every lesser lord aspires to one. If you do not have a maester, it is taken to mean that you are of little consequence. The grey rats read and write our letters, even for such lords as cannot read themselves, and who can say for a certainty that they are not twisting the words for their own ends? What good are they, I ask you?"

"They heal," said Theon. It seemed to be expected of him.

"They heal, yes. I never said they were not subtle. They tend to us when we are sick and injured, or distraught over the illness of a parent or a child. Whenever we are weakest and most vulnerable, there they are. Sometimes they heal us, and we are duly grateful. When they fail, they console us in our grief, and we are grateful for that as well. Out of gratitude we give them a place beneath our roof and make them privy to all our shames and secrets, a part of every council. And before too long, the ruler has become the ruled.

 

 

 

Giving us a hint not to trust Qybruns intentions with Cersei. Qyburn suggest sending Assasins for Jon Snow though, suggesting House Martell does not associate Jon Snow, or Lyanna with Rhaegar. 

 

Oberyn Martell has also served time in the Second Sons of Essos before starting his own, the BraveCompanion (Bloody Mummers). The Bloody Mummers have taken Jamies hand, and the Golden Company has bankrupted Tyrion through "I Owe You" notes. While planting Qyburn in with Cersei. Something likely to play against her later.

 

The Swan Ships connected to Sarella's mother, help to transport Sawell and Aemon to Old Town from Braavos, and later Marwyn plans to take the same ship to go see Daenerys.

 

Marwyn has possibly been using Glass Candles to enter Aemon's dreams, while later picking them up from Old Town and bringing them to him. With Marwyn's plans being tied to Daenerys, not Jon Snow.

 

Marwyn and gang are possibly tied to Maester Walgrave though, who is possibly tied to Maester Walys. Who, according to Lady Dustin, is responsible for the Southern ambitions of Rickard Stark.

 

Who, before the War had visited Aerys II in Kings Landing with Aerys II wanting to extend the North's lands by 100 miles and build a new wall. While wedding Lyanna Stark to House Baratheon. Aerys II had also planned to build Aquaducts in Dorne to help them.  With Aerys II having a large Targeyen alliance in the works, with Elia wed to Rhaegar securing Dorne, Lyanna wed to Baratheons securing both of them, Arryn's by way of Starks and Baratheons. Then lastly, the Tyrells seemingly supporting them along with the Iron Islands. Leaving only House Lannister out of the picture. House Lannister who hates Dorne, and Dorne hates them. It may be that Dorne was behind this alliance. As Aerys II wanted to invade the Step Stones where Pirates hang out, and is near Dorne. Theses pirates also invade the North for slaves. Something Mance Rayder would have possible need of an alliance with Rhaegar for.

 

Yet, The Reach hate Dorne and Olenna Tryell throws shade at Oberyn and his Paramour. What's more, is Olenna Redwyne has reason to hate the Targaryens along with her husband Luthor Tyrell. As Olenna was set to wed Aegon V's son Daeron, till Daeron broke it off at 18 because he was gay. Olenna tells it though as if she broke it off when she was 8 years old.

Luthor was to wed Shaera untill she broke it off to wed her brother, Jaehaerys II. The parents of Aerys II and Rhealla.

 

So, aside from Tywin Lannister hating Aerys for many slights. Including possibly sleeping with his wife, Joanna Lannister. Mocking her in public. Denying a marriage of Cersei to Rhaegar, and denying Jamie as a squire to Rhaegar. Making him a Kings Gaurd instead. We also have Olenna Redwyne and Luthor Tyrell having reasons to hate Aerys II.

 

What's more, Olenna has reason to hate the faith of the Seven for wedding Jaehaerys to his sister Shaera. 

 

 

Quote

 

A Storm of Swords - Jaime V

"Gold armor?" Her voice sounded far off, faint.

He floated in heat, in memory. "After dancing griffins lost the Battle of the Bells, Aerys exiled him." Why am I telling this absurd ugly child? "He had finally realized that Robert was no mere outlaw lord to be crushed at whim, but the greatest threat House Targaryen had faced since Daemon Blackfyre. The king reminded Lewyn Martell gracelessly that he held Elia and sent him to take command of the ten thousand Dornishmen coming up the kingsroad. Jon Darry and Barristan Selmy rode to Stoney Sept to rally what they could of griffins' men, and Prince Rhaegar returned from the south and persuaded his father to swallow his pride and summon my father. But no raven returned from Casterly Rock, and that made the king even more afraid. He saw traitors everywhere, and Varys was always there to point out any he might have missed. So His Grace commanded his alchemists to place caches of wildfire all over King's Landing. Beneath Baelor's Sept and the hovels of Flea Bottom, under stables and storehouses, at all seven gates, even in the cellars of the Red Keep itself.

 

 

 

We are told Aerys was obsessed with Wildfire and place it everywhere. We are also told this though.

 

 

Quote

 

A Clash of Kings - Tyrion XI

"No, no," Hallyne squeaked, "the sums are accurate, I swear. We have been, hmmm, most fortunate, my lord Hand. Another cache of Lord Rossart's was found, more than three hundred jars. Under the Dragonpit! Some whores have been using the ruins to entertain their patrons, and one of them fell through a patch of rotted floor into a cellar. When he felt the jars, he mistook them for wine. He was so drunk he broke the seal and drank some."

"There was a prince who tried that once," said Tyrion dryly. "I haven't seen any dragons rising over the city, so it would seem it didn't work this time either." The Dragonpit atop the hill of Rhaenys had been abandoned for a century and a half. He supposed it was as good a place as any to store wildfire, and better than most, but it would have been nice if the late Lord Rossart had told someone. "Three hundred jars, you say? That still does not account for these totals. You are several thousand jars ahead of the best estimate you gave me when last we met."

 

 

So some were found a year ago, under the dragonpit, during the reign of Cersei and Robert. Though the ones in the Dragonpit aren't mentioned to be fruit shaped, lets just assume they were. Tyrion though states this is actually as safe a spot as any, as Bloodraven used the dragon pits to burn plague bodies with wildfire. The pits are also in ruin.

 

Quote

 

A Clash of Kings - Tyrion V

"That is so. Once it takes fire, the substance will burn fiercely until it is no more. More, it will seep into cloth, wood, leather, even steel, so they take fire as well."

Tyrion remembered the red priest Thoros of Myr and his flaming sword. Even a thin coating of wildfire could burn for an hour. Thoros always needed a new sword after a melee, but Robert had been fond of the man and ever glad to provide one. "Why doesn't it seep into the clay as well?"

"Oh, but it does," said Hallyne. "There is a vault below this one where we store the older pots. Those from King Aerys's day. It was his fancy to have the jars made in the shapes of fruits. Very perilous fruits indeed, my lord Hand, and, hmmm, riper now than ever, if you take my meaning. We have sealed them with wax and pumped the lower vault full of water, but even so . . . by rights they ought to have been destroyed, but so many of our masters were murdered during the Sack of King's Landing, the few acolytes who remained were unequal to the task. And much of the stock we made for Aerys was lost. Only last year, two hundred jars were discovered in a storeroom beneath the Great Sept of Baelor. No one could recall how they came there, but I'm sure I do not need to tell you that the High Septon was beside himself with terror. I myself saw that they were safely moved. I had a cart filled with sand, and sent our most able acolytes. We worked only by night, we—"

 

 

Those under the sept of Baelor though are strange and dangerous. Strange in that Aerys II never had issue with the Faith. The Faith was corrupt and wed him to his sister, along with his parents. Something only Olenna would be upset at the faith for, not even Tywin.

 

 

Quote

 

A Clash of Kings - Tyrion I

"Lord Littlefinger always finds a way, my lord. He has imposed a tax on those wishing to enter the city."

"Yes, that would work," Tyrion said, thinking, Clever. Clever and cruel. Tens of thousands had fled the fighting for the supposed safety of King's Landing. He had seen them on the kingsroad, troupes of mothers and children and anxious fathers who had gazed on his horses and wagons with covetous eyes. Once they reached the city they would doubtless pay over all they had to put those high comforting walls between them and the war . . . though they might think twice if they knew about the wildfire.

 

 

 

And yes, If Jamie, and the guild knew Aerys had hidden many, why not find them? No one is safe. Why would Jamie feel safe there, with Cersei and their kids?

 

 

Quote

 

A Clash of Kings - Tyrion V

"Well understood, my lord."

"Oh, and one more thing. The alchemists will be sending a large supply of clay pots to each of the city gates. You're to use them to train the men who will work your spitfires. Fill the pots with green paint and have them drill at loading and firing. Any man who spatters should be replaced. When they have mastered the paint pots, substitute lamp oil and have them work at lighting the jars and firing them while aflame. Once they learn to do that without burning themselves, they may be ready for wildfire."

 

 

 

The only person we know for sure puts any wildfire anywhere other than the Sept and Dragonpit, was Tyrion. A Lannister.

 

These "Fruit" shaped pots also seem rather odd for House Targayen. As Fruit has never been associated with them. They are however associated with House Redwyne of the Arbor with their grape sigil, and House Tyrell.

 

 

Quote

 

A Feast for Crows - Cersei IX

Cersei blamed Margaery Tyrell for this. If not for her, Wat might have lived a long and fruitful life, singing his little songs and bedding pig girls and crofter's daughters. Her scheming forced this on me. She has soiled me with her treachery.

 

 

 

 

Quote

 

A Feast for Crows - Cersei V

The Redwyne twins come calling too. Slobber brings flowers and fruit, and Horror's taken up the lute. To hear Osney tell it, you could make a sweeter sound strangling a cat. The Summer Islander's always underfoot as well."

 

 

The Grapes of Wrath

 

Quote

 

A Feast for Crows - Cersei I

"Ser Loras has that honor, if it please you."

It did not please her. The Tyrells were only stewards that the dragon-kings had upjumped far above their station. Their vanity was exceeded only by their ambition. Ser Loras might be as pretty as a maiden's dream, but underneath his white cloak he was Tyrell to the bone. For all she knew, this night's foul fruit had been planted and nurtured in Highgarden.

 

 

 

Tywin marched on K.L. likely not knowing about Olenna's pots, and Jamie assumed it was Aery's doing, rather than Olenna's. As even in the current story, House Tyrell and Olenna are working the Lannisters to usurp them. They are not friends, they just both merely hated the Targyens. Tywin worked the Frey's and House Whent though by hosting the Tourney of Harrenhal, and his sister being wed to a Frey. We know the royal coffers were full after Aerys, and that the Tourney and all its gifts were expensive. Along with Wildfire being very expensive

 

 

Quote

 

A Storm of Swords - Tyrion IV

"You will find whatever gold is required."

"Will I? Where? The treasury is empty, I've told you that. We're not done paying the alchemists for all that wildfire, or the smiths for my chain, and Cersei's pledged the crown to pay half the costs of Joff's wedding—seventy-seven bloody courses, a thousand guests, a pie full of doves, singers, jugglers . . ."

 

 

 

Quote

 

A Clash of Kings - Tyrion V

Wildfire was too costly to squander.

 

 

With House Martell hating both of Lannisters and Tyrells, and conspiring against House Lannister the most for the death of Elia and her children. With ties to Marwyn, Mirri Maz Dur, Qyburn, the Brave Companions, the Second Sons, House Dayne, and Daenerys. House Martell has been one of the major players in the series thus far, playing against the Lannisters, Tyrells/Redwynes, and Varys and Illyrio. Who, along with Peter Baelish, are among the major movers.

 

 

I may have gotten some clues wrong, but this is the picture so far as I can understand it. I have taken many points to mind in considering some of these events and amended some theories, like how much Tywin was involved in the Wildfire plot. Having missed the Olenna clues before. I still think the Lannisters are fudging facts about the wildfire some. Like the old Hand being "Dipped" in wildfire and set a fire. With the only other source for his being Yandel, who wasn't there and just going off word from Pycell. A Measter in service to House Lannister. House Lannister and the Tyrells will play nice for as long as it suits them.

 

I hope you enjoyed some of these ideas, even if not agreeing with them your self. This is a large subject to cover with many moving parts, so apologies for having to repeat some of my other theories like Mance, as it does relate to the Martell plans. Which relate to Dany, not Jon.

 

[AlaskanSandman]

The Wildfire became a subject of debate with who knew what. Barristan, while having memories of Aery's going crazy, but none what so ever of him burning his hand, or anyone. Aery's going crazy in his mind, could just be due to Aerys hanging Brandon Stark and Beheading Rickard when they had demanded a trial by combat. 

We have no other sources for this other than the Lannisters, and Maester Yandel (Who is @Ran). Which the Citadel typically base their reports off the reports of their Maesters. The Maester to K.L. being Grand Maester Pycelle, in the service to House Lannister, rather than being loyal to his King and the Royal House. Yandel is also writing in the time of Robert Baratheon, Joffery, and Tommen. So under either king, smearing the Targaryen's to justify the rule of the Baratheons, wouldn't be unsurprising. 

[LynnS]

Jeepers.  This is a long one.  I'm not very good with theories that have a lot of moving parts.  So I will comment on one or two things....

I'm not opposed to the idea that Dany is Ashera's daughter by Rhaegar but her name itself doesn't make her a Dayne.  After all there have been others named Daenerys who are not linked to House Dayne.  Her name also includes the familiar and similar sounding Aerys.

The vision of Rhaegar in the House of Undying is interesting because Rhaegar is talking to someone other than Elia when he says there must be one more.  We don't know the identity of that person but it's likely one of Elia's ladies attending the birth.  Potentially that could be Ashera. 

The only other potential connection to House Dayne is this:

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys IX

"… want to wake the dragon …"

Ghosts lined the hallway, dressed in the faded raiment of kings. In their hands were swords of pale fire. They had hair of silver and hair of gold and hair of platinum white, and their eyes were opal and amethyst, tourmaline and jade. "Faster," they cried, "faster, faster." She raced, her feet melting the stone wherever they touched. "Faster!" the ghosts cried as one, and she screamed and threw herself forward. A great knife of pain ripped down her back, and she felt her skin tear open and smelled the stench of burning blood and saw the shadow of wings. And Daenerys Targaryen flew.

 

.Whenever we have seen something similar before, we are being shown the line of someone's ancestors.  For example Jamie's dream and the ghosts in the crypts of Winterfell.  The sword of pale fire certainly conjures up the pale stone sword alive with light.  

These things are certainly suggestive.  As are the kings with, silver, gold and platinum hair and gemstone eyes harkening back to the ancestors of old Valyria.

I think if Ashera produced the important third head of the dragon; that the child would also have been born on Dragonstone under Rhaegar's protection.   Perhaps even nine or ten months after Aegon was born if Rhaegar was in a hurry and Ashera was agreeable.  All highly speculative since we really don't know much about Ashera at all except that she is said to have lost a daughter in childbirth.

Which brings us to the question posed in the prologue of GoT:  How do you know the dead are really dead?  The question that drives most baby swap and identity swap speculation.

This one would certainly cause some problems if Dany is being passed off as Rhaella's child. Unless Ashera and Rhaella were due at the same time; then Dany would likely be older than we think.  Assuming Rhaegar wasn't wasting any time after Aegon was born.

If Willem Derry Knew that Dany was Ashera's; this could explain why she is not mentioned in the marriage contract signed by the Sealord of Braavos.

Whatever the case may be It also makes more sense to split Dany and Viserys up and hide them separately.  If one should be found, the other is safe.

I think the best place to hide and infant or child with Targ looks is in Lys where such features would not stand out in the population.  Hidden in plain sight in other words.  Lys is known for it's fruit trees and perfumes.  

So here is Dany recalling a scent memory of home:

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys VI

Quote

 

But the Western Market smelled of home.

As Irri and Jhiqui helped her from her litter, she sniffed, and recognized the sharp odors of garlic and pepper, scents that reminded Dany of days long gone in the alleys of Tyrosh and Myr and brought a fond smile to her face. Under that she smelled the heady sweet perfumes of Lys. 

 

So she doesn't just have a visual memory of home, but a scent memory as well.  Of these three places; Lys is known for it's fruit trees and dare we say the climate is right for lemons.  The added bonus is that her Targ features won't stand out in the population.

 

[AlaskanSandman]

34 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Jeepers.  This is a long one.  I'm not very good with theories that have a lot of moving parts.  So I will comment on one or two things....

I'm not opposed to the idea that Dany is Ashera's daughter by Rhaegar but her name itself doesn't make her a Dayne.  After all there have been others named Daenerys who are not linked to House Dayne.  Her name also includes the familiar and similar sounding Aerys.

The vision of Rhaegar in the House of Undying is interesting because Rhaegar is talking to someone other than Elia when he says there must be one more.  We don't know the identity of that person but it's likely one of Elia's ladies attending the birth.  Potentially that could be Ashera. 

The only other potential connection to House Dayne is this:

.Whenever we have seen something similar before, we are being shown the line of someone's ancestors.  For example Jamie's dream and the ghosts in the crypts of Winterfell.  The sword of pale fire certainly conjures up the pale stone sword alive with light.  

These things are certainly suggestive.  As are the kings with, silver, gold and platinum hair and gemstone eyes harkening back to the ancestors of old Valyria.

I think if Ashera produced the important third head of the dragon; that the child would also have been born on Dragonstone under Rhaegar's protection.   Perhaps even nine or ten months after Aegon was born if Rhaegar was in a hurry and Ashera was agreeable.  All highly speculative since we really don't know much about Ashera at all except that she is said to have lost a daughter in childbirth.

Which brings us to the question posed in the prologue of GoT:  How do you know the dead are really dead?  The question that drives most baby swap and identity swap speculation.

This one would certainly cause some problems if Dany is being passed off as Rhaella's child. Unless Ashera and Rhaella were due at the same time; then Dany would likely be older than we think.  Assuming Rhaegar wasn't wasting any time after Aegon was born.

If Willem Derry Knew that Dany was Ashera's; this could explain why she is not mentioned in the marriage contract signed by the Sealord of Braavos.

Whatever the case may be It also makes more sense to split Dany and Viserys up and hide them separately.  If one should be found, the other is safe.

I think the best place to hide and infant or child with Targ looks is in Lys where such features would not stand out in the population.  Hidden in plain sight in other words.  Lys is known for it's fruit trees and perfumes.  

So here is Dany recalling a scent memory of home:

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys VI

So she doesn't just have a visual memory of home, but a scent memory as well.  Of these three places; Lys is known for it's fruit trees and dare we say the climate is right for lemons.  The added bonus is that her Targ features won't stand out in the population.

 

Well I think the Quiathe being linked to Stars and telling her to "Remember" who she is, is a descent possible nod to House Dayne, but obviously debate-able.

The homophone with her name to that of Dayne-Heiress is certainly not my only clue, its just one of them. While yes, there has been one other named Daenerys, who married Maron Martell of Dorne when Daeron II maried Mariah Martell. Even more reason to suspect Daenerys was born in Dorne, at Starfall.

As to scent memories of Lys, I would say that since she does not truly remember where home is (In Dorne), the closest she would "Feel" at home, is in Lys. Where its the closest to Dorne in temperature, and culture. Lys being the same latitude roughly as Starfall too. This is just how I would reconcile those facts.

 

As to the rest, I apologize for the size, but as somethings connected I wanted to list the pertinent parts with out quoting every possible clue for every theory. Like every star reference with Quiathe or what ever. Always a struggle with 5 books of info and each book is longer than the bible (I think). That's a lot of info to confuse people with, and for them to sort out in proving anything.

[LynnS]

31 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Well I think the Quiathe being linked to Stars and telling her to "Remember" who she is, is a descent possible nod to House Dayne, but obviously debate-able

I actually connect Quaithe with the red religion.  Here's Mel and Moqorro:

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion VIII

The Selaesori Qhoran was seven days from Volantis when Penny finally emerged from her cabin, creeping up on deck like some timid woodland creature emerging from a long winter's sleep.

It was dusk and the red priest had lit his nightfire in the great iron brazier amidships as the crew gathered round to pray. Moqorro's voice was a bass drum that seemed to boom from somewhere deep within his massive torso. "We thank you for your sun that keeps us warm," he prayed. "We thank you for your stars that watch over us as we sail this cold black sea." A huge man, taller than Ser Jorah and wide enough to make two of him, the priest wore scarlet robes embroidered at sleeve and hem and collar with orange satin flames. His skin was black as pitch, his hair as white as snow; the flames tattooed across his cheeks and brow yellow and orange. His iron staff was as tall as he was and crowned with a dragon's head; when he stamped its butt upon the deck, the dragon's maw spat crackling green flame.

 

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Jon X

"We thank you for the sun that warms us," chanted the queen. "We thank you for the stars that watch over us in the black of night. We thank you for our hearths and for our torches that keep the savage dark at bay. We thank you for our bright spirits, the fires in our loins and in our hearts."

Quote

 

A Dance with Dragons - The Sacrifice

"Lord of Light, defend us," the queen's men chanted, "for the night is dark and full of terrors."

Ser Godry raised his head toward the darkening sky. "We thank you for the sun that warms us and pray that you will return it to us, Oh lord, that it might light our path to your enemies." Snowflakes melted on his face. "We thank you for the stars that watch over us by night, and pray that you will rip away this veil that hides them, so we might glory in their sight once more."

 

Quaithe\s identity is up for grabs but I think Shierra Seastar is a good bet.  The Stars being another sect or branch or the red religion.

That's not to say that Dany isn't connected to House Dayne by blood.  She could very well be a fallen star.  She does seem to be Nissa Nissa reborn by my reckoning.  We know that the dawn sword was forged in the heart of a fallen star and that dovetails with the story of the forging of Lightbringer.   

[AlaskanSandman]

1 minute ago, LynnS said:

I actually connect Quaithe with the red religion.  Here's Mel and Moqorro:

Quaithe\s identity is up for grabs but I think Shierra Seastar is a good bet.

That's not to say that Dany isn't connected to House Dayne by blood.  She could very well be a fallen star.  She does seem to be Nissa Nissa reborn by my reckoning.  We know that the dawn sword was forged in the heart of a fallen star and that dovetails with the story of the forging of Lightbringer.   

Yea due to the shaky nature of Quaithe and or Shiera Sea Star, I tried to make sure the Daenerys theory was built out of more clues than just one or two.

I tend to link Shiera Seastar to Melisandre and Bloodraven. The Bleeding Star who heralds the coming of Azor Ahai. Melisandre heralding him in her speeches constantly proclaiming Stannis as Azor Ahai come again. 

You make some excellent points though too. The Red Faith I see as similar to the Pyromancers some what, both of which the Targaryens showed little interest in for some reason. We are told the Maesters replaced the Pyromancers a couple hundred years ago, and that Thoros was unable to convert Aerys II, leading him to question his own faith. With Melisandre believing Azor Ahai is the Prince that was Promised, it may be that the rest of the Faith know of Azor and the Promised Prince, and assume its Targaryens. Melisandre differs from her peers a little, and may suspect Baratheons since they have Targaryen blood. Either way, Targaryens and the Red Priest and or Pyromancers are not linked so much in my mind. 

[AlaskanSandman]

18 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I actually connect Quaithe with the red religion.  Here's Mel and Moqorro:

Quaithe\s identity is up for grabs but I think Shierra Seastar is a good bet.  The Stars being another sect or branch or the red religion.

That's not to say that Dany isn't connected to House Dayne by blood.  She could very well be a fallen star.  She does seem to be Nissa Nissa reborn by my reckoning.  We know that the dawn sword was forged in the heart of a fallen star and that dovetails with the story of the forging of Lightbringer.   

To be fair though, the Red Religion is based around the Possible Hero from House Dayne who may have been the Original Azor Ahai, or Nissa Nissa. So even the Red Faith, links Starfall and House Dayne. 

The Church of Stary wisdom in the East and its parallels in the Faith of the Seven. All likely tying to the mythical hero.

[Targaryen Restoration]

Ser Barristan was romanticizing Lady Ashara and Queen Daenerys.  He holds a deep affection for the Lady Ashara and his life is filled with regrets.  He now got to transfer those affections to his Child Queen and correct for the mistakes of the past.  It does not mean the two ladies have the same eyes.  Two pairs of eyes looking to him for guidance and protection.  That is what Ser Barristan was seeing.  He grows to love and care for Queen Daenerys.  If she should turn out to be a Dayne, it will be through a secret affair between Ser Arthur and Queen Rhaella.  But I find that unlikely.  The Targaryens have sacrificed love and happiness for three generations in order to bring on her birth.  Targaryen grandparents and parents brought us the Prince Who Was Promised who brought back the dragons.  The PWWP has to be the child of two Targaryens, who were also the children of two Targaryens.  Her identity has been confirmed.  She is the Child Of Three from the Three-Head Dragon of the Targaryens.

Rhaegar and Mance are the best guesses as to the father of Jon Snow.  Though we cannot deny Ser Arthur knocking up Lyanna.  Brandon is in the mix as well if Lyanna was already carrying his child when she ran away.  Rickard was going to force her to abort. 

Arianne will commit Dorne to Aegon and the Blackfyres.  Their marriage will forge the bond.  The Martells will have a rebellion on their hands.  Gerrys and Arch committed their families to Daenerys.  Darkstar is the wildcard because we don't know who he will commit his house to.

 

[AlaskanSandman]

3 minutes ago, Targaryen Restoration said:

Ser Barristan was romanticizing Lady Ashara and Queen Daenerys.  He holds a deep affection for the Lady Ashara and his life is filled with regrets.  He now got to transfer those affections to his Child Queen and correct for the mistakes of the past.  It does not mean the two ladies have the same eyes.  Two pairs of eyes looking to him for guidance and protection.  That is what Ser Barristan was seeing.  He grows to love and care for Queen Daenerys.  If she should turn out to be a Dayne, it will be through a secret affair between Ser Arthur and Queen Rhaella.  But I find that unlikely.  The Targaryens have sacrificed love and happiness for three generations in order to bring on her birth.  Targaryen grandparents and parents brought us the Prince Who Was Promised who brought back the dragons.  The PWWP has to be the child of two Targaryens, who were also the children of two Targaryens.  Her identity has been confirmed.  She is the Child Of Three from the Three-Head Dragon of the Targaryens.

Rhaegar and Mance are the best guesses as to the father of Jon Snow.  Though we cannot deny Ser Arthur knocking up Lyanna.  Brandon is in the mix as well if Lyanna was already carrying his child when she ran away.  Rickard was going to force her to abort. 

Arianne will commit Dorne to Aegon and the Blackfyres.  Their marriage will forge the bond.  The Martells will have a rebellion on their hands.  Gerrys and Arch committed their families to Daenerys.  Darkstar is the wildcard because we don't know who he will commit his house to.

 

Well, while I obviously disagree on Dany haha as far as Dark Star, I think he is going against House Dayne. Cadet branches are typically trouble some and Doran listed him as the most dangerous man in Dorne. 

It has been a long while since I've heard Brandon thrown in the mix but if I recall, @Ran was a fan of Brandon Stark theories. I think it was the Ashara and Brandon one but don't quote me on that. It has been a while 

[Targaryen Restoration]

11 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Well, while I obviously disagree on Dany haha as far as Dark Star, I think he is going against House Dayne. Cadet branches are typically trouble some and Doran listed him as the most dangerous man in Dorne. 

It has been a long while since I've heard Brandon thrown in the mix but if I recall, @Ran was a fan of Brandon Stark theories. I think it was the Ashara and Brandon one but don't quote me on that. It has been a while 

Me thinks it's Brandon and Lyanna as choice #3.

[LynnS]

39 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

I tend to link Shiera Seastar to Melisandre and Bloodraven. The Bleeding Star who heralds the coming of Azor Ahai. Melisandre heralding him in her speeches constantly proclaiming Stannis as Azor Ahai come again. 

There is also that connection.  That would make Mel blood of the dragon.

20 minutes ago, Targaryen Restoration said:

Ser Barristan was romanticizing Lady Ashara and Queen Daenerys.  He holds a deep affection for the Lady Ashara and his life is filled with regrets.

I tend to agree with this statement.  Barristan was in love with Ashera and clearly he thought she should have been QOLAB  I think the shame he attributes to her is a projection of his own shame and she wasn't actually physically violated or felt any shame at all..  

[Targaryen Restoration]

3 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I tend to agree with this statement.  Barristan was in love with Ashera and clearly he thought she should have been QOLAB  I think the shame he attributes to her is a projection of his own shame and she wasn't actually physically violated or felt any shame at all..  

Lady Ashara was upset enough to turn to a man for comfort.  Any thoughts on what the insult was?  Was it Brandon's doing?

[LynnS]

44 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Baratheons since they have Targaryen blood. Either way, Targaryens and the Red Priest and or Pyromancers are not linked so much in my mind. 

And yet the red religion seems to be part of Dany's subconscious.  Compare Mel's prayer and Dany's placement of the eggs on Drogo's funeral Pyre:

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Davos VI

The nightfire burned against the gathering dark, a great bright beast whose shifting orange light threw shadows twenty feet tall across the yard. All along the walls of Dragonstone the army of gargoyles and grotesques seemed to stir and shift.

Davos looked down from an arched window in the gallery above. He watched Melisandre lift her arms, as if to embrace the shivering flames. "R'hllor," she sang in a voice loud and clear, "you are the light in our eyes, the fire in our hearts, the heat in our loins. Yours is the sun that warms our days, yours the stars that guard us in the dark of night."

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys X

"They were not given to me to sell," Dany told him.

She climbed the pyre herself to place the eggs around her sun-and-stars. The black beside his heart, under his arm. The green beside his head, his braid coiled around it. The cream-and-gold down between his legs. When she kissed him for the last time, Dany could taste the sweetness of the oil on his lips.

 

Here are the sun and stars of the Dothraki and the red religion.  There seems to be a lot of overlap between cultures when it comes to prophecy.  

[LynnS]

4 minutes ago, Targaryen Restoration said:

Lady Ashara was upset enough to turn to a man for comfort.  Any thoughts on what the insult was?  Was it Brandon's doing?

We don't know if she was upset.  She may have turned to Stark simply because she was attracted to him.  To Selmy, the insult was in not naming her QOLAB as he would have done.  This is baggage in his head and he must have a reason for her turning to Stark that satisfies his need to cast the interaction between Ned and Ashera as something other than mutual attraction.  Selmy is the one feeling hurt and ashamed.

[EggBlue]

27 minutes ago, Targaryen Restoration said:

Ser Barristan was romanticizing Lady Ashara and Queen Daenerys.  He holds a deep affection for the Lady Ashara and his life is filled with regrets.  He now got to transfer those affections to his Child Queen and correct for the mistakes of the past.  It does not mean the two ladies have the same eyes.  Two pairs of eyes looking to him for guidance and protection.  That is what Ser Barristan was seeing.  He grows to love and care for Queen Daenerys. 

that's what I thought. 

still, let's not throw the Dany Dayne theory away. as far as possibilities go, Rhaegar/Elia/Ashara may as well have been a throuple!!( ok , even I don't think this is likely myself!) ... all in all, @AlaskanSandman makes some good points ,especially regarding the person in the vision and Mance being Jon's dad... 

also , I think it's worth mentioning that Ashara probably had been either in Dragonstone or the Red Keep when her daughter was born for rumors/info to reach Barristan . if she was in Starfall or anywhere in Dornr , all the news that could reach Barristan was she was pregnant and her child died .. no mention of daughter or son . 

27 minutes ago, Targaryen Restoration said:

Brandon is in the mix as well if Lyanna was already carrying his child when she ran away.  Rickard was going to force her to abort. 

dear god!!

[Lilac & Gooseberries]

45 minutes ago, Targaryen Restoration said:

Brandon is in the mix as well if Lyanna was already carrying his child when she ran away.  Rickard was going to force her to abort. 

Was she an elephant? Otherwise shed couldn't be pregnant for two years.

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

To be fair though, the Red Religion is based around the Possible Hero from House Dayne who may have been the Original Azor Ahai, or Nissa Nissa. So even the Red Faith, links Starfall and House Dayne. 

And yet we can glean some things about AA from the story Davos hears:

Quote

 

A Clash of Kings - Davos I

"A burning sword," corrected Davos.

"Burnt," said Salladhor Saan, "and be glad of that, my friend. Do you know the tale of the forging of Lightbringer? I shall tell it to you. It was a time when darkness lay heavy on the world. To oppose it, the hero must have a hero's blade, oh, like none that had ever been. And so for thirty days and thirty nights Azor Ahai labored sleepless in the temple, forging a blade in the sacred fires. Heat and hammer and fold, heat and hammer and fold, oh, yes, until the sword was done. Yet when he plunged it into water to temper the steel it burst asunder.

"Being a hero, it was not for him to shrug and go in search of excellent grapes such as these, so again he began. The second time it took him fifty days and fifty nights, and this sword seemed even finer than the first. Azor Ahai captured a lion, to temper the blade by plunging it through the beast's red heart, but once more the steel shattered and split. Great was his woe and great was his sorrow then, for he knew what he must do.

"A hundred days and a hundred nights he labored on the third blade, and as it glowed white-hot in the sacred fires, he summoned his wife. 'Nissa Nissa,' he said to her, for that was her name, 'bare your breast, and know that I love you best of all that is in this world.' She did this thing, why I cannot say, and Azor Ahai thrust the smoking sword through her living heart. It is said that her cry of anguish and ecstasy left a crack across the face of the moon, but her blood and her soul and her strength and her courage all went into the steel. Such is the tale of the forging of Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes.

 

First AA is labouring in a temple and second he apparently doesn't need to eat or sleep for 180 days.  We don't find out until ADWD that Mel doesn't need to eat or sleep much either.

Quote

 

A Dance with Dragons - Melisandre I

"Almost dawn, my lady."

Dawn. Another day is given us, R'hllor be praised. The terrors of the night recede. Melisandre had spent the night in her chair by the fire, as she often did. With Stannis gone, her bed saw little use. She had no time for sleep, with the weight of the world upon her shoulders. And she feared to dream. Sleep is a little death, dreams the whisperings of the Other, who would drag us all into his eternal night. She would sooner sit bathed in the ruddy glow of her red lord's blessed flames, her cheeks flushed by the wash of heat as if by a lover's kisses. Some nights she drowsed, but never for more than an hour. One day, Melisandre prayed, she would not sleep at all. One day she would be free of dreams. Melony, she thought. Lot Seven.

 

So it seems to me that AA was a red priest perhaps, a fire mage at least attached to a temple or religious institution.  Or is the red religion only claiming the Last Hero as their own.  Or were there more than one hero and more than one magical sword?.  

[LynnS]

I want to come back to Quaithe telling Dany to remember who she is.  She can't possibly have a memory of being a Dayne.  She does tell her to remember the Undying.  They tell her who she is:  the bride of fire, mother of dragons and slayer of lies.  We know when Dany became the mother of dragons but when did she become the bride of fire? 

This is when she was chosen:

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys III

Day followed day, and night followed night, until Dany knew she could not endure a moment longer. She would kill herself rather than go on, she decided one night …

Yet when she slept that night, she dreamt the dragon dream again. Viserys was not in it this time. There was only her and the dragon. Its scales were black as night, wet and slick with blood. Her blood, Dany sensed. Its eyes were pools of molten magma, and when it opened its mouth, the flame came roaring out in a hot jet. She could hear it singing to her. She opened her arms to the fire, embraced it, let it swallow her whole, let it cleanse her and temper her and scour her clean. She could feel her flesh sear and blacken and slough away, could feel her blood boil and turn to steam, and yet there was no pain. She felt strong and new and fierce.

And the next day, strangely, she did not seem to hurt quite so much. It was as if the gods had heard her and taken pity. Even her handmaids noticed the change. "Khaleesi," Jhiqui said, "what is wrong? Are you sick?"

 

 When Mel says that fire is the cleanest form of death; this is what she refers to: the scouring and cleansing of the soul.  This is a spiritual fire and Dany is the bride of a dragon god.

With this transformation, she is now holy blood, a god's wife. 

 

[Egged]

Dany's memories of wooden beams with carved animal faces: the Dragonstone sept had wooden beams made from the masts of the ships which took the first Targaryens to Westeros. The one for the Stranger looked like an animal face. I think this is what Daenerys remembers, not something from the Sealord's palace.

Quote

The burning gods cast a pretty light, wreathed in their robes of shifting flame, red and orange and yellow. Septon Barre had once told Davos how they'd been carved from the masts of the ships that had carried the first Targaryens from Valyria. Over the centuries, they had been painted and repainted, gilded, silvered, jeweled. "Their beauty will make them more pleasing to R'hllor," Melisandre said when she told Stannis to pull them down and drag them out the castle gates.

[...]

They were all afire now, Maid and Mother, Warrior and Smith, the Crone with her pearl eyes and the Father with his gilded beard; even the Stranger, carved to look more animal than human.

[...]

She remembered those great wooden beams and the carved animal faces that adorned them.

The only place with red doors in all of the books is the red doors to the great hall of Dragonstone.

Quote

The doors to the Great Hall were set in the mouth of a stone dragon. He told the servants to leave him outside. It would be better to enter alone; he must not appear feeble. Leaning heavily on his cane, Cressen climbed the last few steps and hobbled beneath the gateway teeth. A pair of guardsmen opened the heavy red doors before him, unleashing a sudden blast of noise and light. Cressen stepped down into the dragon's maw.

And I suspect Aegon's garden at Dragonstone had a lemon tree, which was cut off after the war as it had likely been planted for Elia.

So Daenerys might be older than she thinks, she has memories of living in Dragonstone. Ashara was lady in waiting for Elia. I suspect she was her daughter, a bastard of Aerys or Rhaegar. Rhaegar might have been looking at Ashara when he said "there must be another".

Rhaegar might have only actually "produced" the prince that was promised when he didn't even try to bring him about, when he actually fell in love with Lyanna. Jon's interest in strong-willed women would be a trait his father seemingly shared in the end.

[LynnS]

14 minutes ago, Egged said:

Dany's memories of wooden beams with carved animal faces: the Dragonstone sept had wooden beams made from the masts of the ships which took the first Targaryens to Westeros. The one for the Stranger looked like an animal face. I think this is what Daenerys remembers, not something from the Sealord's palace.

Nice catch!