Dorne for Daenerys, the Dayne Heiress.

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Egged said:

Dany's memories of wooden beams with carved animal faces: the Dragonstone sept had wooden beams made from the masts of the ships which took the first Targaryens to Westeros. The one for the Stranger looked like an animal face. I think this is what Daenerys remembers, not something from the Sealord's palace.

I think Dany's earliest memories are episodic around the time that memory begins to form.  She may remember the carved beams and red door but in the wrong place.  She might be putting memories of different places together as autobiographical memory starts to form.  I think one of her earliest childhood memories is tactile:  soft hands and warm arms to hold her.  This is not likely to be Willem Derry but mother or nursemaid whom she can't remember..

When Do Babies Develop Memories? - ABC News (go.com)

We do know that she is moved into hiding at some poin,t and I'm not sure that Dragonstone (an active volcanic sea mount) has much in the way of green fields or trees of any kinds.  Hence the need to use ship's masts for carved wooden beams.

[Phylum of Alexandria]

Well, based on what GRRM has suggested, it seems that Lemongate is not nothing. Plus, I do love a good pun, and "Dane heiress" is no exception.

Still, this is one more area where I start to worry about the ASOIAF plot. We have a hidden Targaryen prince in Jon, not yet revealed. We now also have Aegon claiming that he's a Targaryen prince once thought dead (and he might actually be a Blackfyre, or other pretender). Now, I quite like the Aegon development, because it's a way to simultaneously 1) introduce a more manufactured (i.e., "fantasy") version of Jon and Dany into the story, thereby highlighting just how much more earned their own stories feel, and 2) make a more explicit reference to hidden princes, because Jon's parentage actually hasn't been revealed yet, so the foreshadowing needs to ramp up somehow, and Aegon the interloper is one way to get naive readers thinking more about the prospect.

But then...Dany, who we've thought forever was the last surviving Targaryen is in fact an imposter?

Obviously, how brilliant versus regrettable a choice like this would be for the narrative all boils down to execution. In most respects I have the utmost faith in our dear author. Yet I do confess that my moments of doubt are with all of the hidden stuff bubbling in the background of the narrative.

Not unrelated, I felt that The Mystery Knight was the least successful Dunk and Egg entry, mostly because the preoccupation with hidden plots and reveals seemed to upstage GRRM's desire to make an impactful, meaningful story. Beyond seeing some key characters come to life on page, what was the point of it all? I'm hoping GRRM can stick to what matters most to the structure, impact, and themes of his story. Rant over!

[The Bard of Banefort]

I’ve only seen this suggested once, but maybe Edric Storm will try to ally with Dany. He’s already in Essos, and both Stannis and Cersei want him dead. They’re close in age too. She could use him to rally some of the Stormlanders to her side.

[AlaskanSandman]

9 hours ago, Targaryen Restoration said:

Me thinks it's Brandon and Lyanna as choice #3.

Brandon and his sister? or Brandon and Ashara? Cause I believe Elio/Ran was into the Ashara and Brandon theory. Back in the day before he started working with George and not allowed to talk theories so much.

[AlaskanSandman]

9 hours ago, LynnS said:

There is also that connection.  That would make Mel blood of the dragon.

I tend to agree with this statement.  Barristan was in love with Ashera and clearly he thought she should have been QOLAB  I think the shame he attributes to her is a projection of his own shame and she wasn't actually physically violated or felt any shame at all..  

I def think Brarristan was romanticizing Ashara. I don't think he got the eyes bit wrong though just because he was romanticizing her though. I also agree that she probably did not perceive the honor the same as Barristan did. Her sleeping around as a Dornish woman isn't a dishonor, it would have to be rape or something. I don't think Eddard would've let Ashara get raped, and Brandon doesn't sound rapey. 

[AlaskanSandman]

9 hours ago, LynnS said:

And yet the red religion seems to be part of Dany's subconscious.  Compare Mel's prayer and Dany's placement of the eggs on Drogo's funeral Pyre:

Here are the sun and stars of the Dothraki and the red religion.  There seems to be a lot of overlap between cultures when it comes to prophecy.  

Yea after I linked them in my mind via the ancient hero, I got your point.  Sorry, been a minute since I looked at those sides of the book. Focusing on peoples actions more than the symbolism's, but I should be focusing on them both

[AlaskanSandman]

9 hours ago, LynnS said:

We don't know if she was upset.  She may have turned to Stark simply because she was attracted to him.  To Selmy, the insult was in not naming her QOLAB as he would have done.  This is baggage in his head and he must have a reason for her turning to Stark that satisfies his need to cast the interaction between Ned and Ashera as something other than mutual attraction.  Selmy is the one feeling hurt and ashamed.

Weird moment to suddenly be "looking" to Stark. The moment after Rhaegar crowns Lyanna. Why did Rhaegar winning cause her to be attracted to a Stark?

[AlaskanSandman]

9 hours ago, EggBlue said:

that's what I thought. 

still, let's not throw the Dany Dayne theory away. as far as possibilities go, Rhaegar/Elia/Ashara may as well have been a throuple!!( ok , even I don't think this is likely myself!) ... all in all, @AlaskanSandman makes some good points ,especially regarding the person in the vision and Mance being Jon's dad... 

also , I think it's worth mentioning that Ashara probably had been either in Dragonstone or the Red Keep when her daughter was born for rumors/info to reach Barristan . if she was in Starfall or anywhere in Dornr , all the news that could reach Barristan was she was pregnant and her child died .. no mention of daughter or son . 

dear god!!

Well I tried to show some of the Daenerys stuff through her support by Dorne. Where as, no support was ever given to Jon, and Eddard still thinks of Broken Promises after Roberts dead and Jon is safe at the Wall.

As to where Ashara was. Im open to suggestions, I just like the contrast of Dany born in a tower as the "Light" side, and Jon born in the Crypts as the "Dark" side, or Ice side. I've always suspected Starfall it self as a lone tower in the Mountains is an odd place to go.

[AlaskanSandman]

7 hours ago, LynnS said:

I want to come back to Quaithe telling Dany to remember who she is.  She can't possibly have a memory of being a Dayne.  She does tell her to remember the Undying.  They tell her who she is:  the bride of fire, mother of dragons and slayer of lies.  We know when Dany became the mother of dragons but when did she become the bride of fire? 

This is when she was chosen:

 When Mel says that fire is the cleanest form of death; this is what she refers to: the scouring and cleansing of the soul.  This is a spiritual fire and Dany is the bride of a dragon god.

With this transformation, she is now holy blood, a god's wife. 

 

Well this depends on where she was brought to and for how long was she there. Lemon Trees, Red Doors, etc stuck in her memory and contrast Braavos. So, remember who you are could well be about being a Dayne in my mind.

[AlaskanSandman]

7 hours ago, Egged said:

Dany's memories of wooden beams with carved animal faces: the Dragonstone sept had wooden beams made from the masts of the ships which took the first Targaryens to Westeros. The one for the Stranger looked like an animal face. I think this is what Daenerys remembers, not something from the Sealord's palace.

The only place with red doors in all of the books is the red doors to the great hall of Dragonstone.

And I suspect Aegon's garden at Dragonstone had a lemon tree, which was cut off after the war as it had likely been planted for Elia.

So Daenerys might be older than she thinks, she has memories of living in Dragonstone. Ashara was lady in waiting for Elia. I suspect she was her daughter, a bastard of Aerys or Rhaegar. Rhaegar might have been looking at Ashara when he said "there must be another".

Rhaegar might have only actually "produced" the prince that was promised when he didn't even try to bring him about, when he actually fell in love with Lyanna. Jon's interest in strong-willed women would be a trait his father seemingly shared in the end.

Great catch on Dragonstone!

Great idea about the Lemon Tree planted for Elia too! I absolutely love that idea!

I definitely think Rhaegar was looking at Ashara in that vision and that Dany is seeing through Ashara's eyes. Which is why she tells Dany to remember the House of the Undying.

Aerys and his rape incident has always been a possibility in the cards to for me honestly, as him raping Rhaella seems odd. She's his wife and we know they slept together to have kids many times. I don't see why it suddenly became rape after he allegedly became faithful. Rhaegar I think had his eye on her as a surrogate mother though. So both are in the cards. I think he was originally going to crown Ashara, not Lyanna.

I still disagree on Jon being a Targ though but I understand why people think he is Rhaegar's and Lyannas. For me, Mance is Jon's father.

[AlaskanSandman]

6 hours ago, LynnS said:

I think Dany's earliest memories are episodic around the time that memory begins to form.  She may remember the carved beams and red door but in the wrong place.  She might be putting memories of different places together as autobiographical memory starts to form.  I think one of her earliest childhood memories is tactile:  soft hands and warm arms to hold her.  This is not likely to be Willem Derry but mother or nursemaid whom she can't remember..

When Do Babies Develop Memories? - ABC News (go.com)

We do know that she is moved into hiding at some poin,t and I'm not sure that Dragonstone (an active volcanic sea mount) has much in the way of green fields or trees of any kinds.  Hence the need to use ship's masts for carved wooden beams.

Good point on the green fields. She may be mixing memories.

[AlaskanSandman]

5 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I’ve only seen this suggested once, but maybe Edric Storm will try to ally with Dany. He’s already in Essos, and both Stannis and Cersei want him dead. They’re close in age too. She could use him to rally some of the Stormlanders to her side.

This is an interesting idea. Im very much interested in ideas on how these plots of the Martells and Daynes could play out.

[LynnS]

49 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Weird moment to suddenly be "looking" to Stark. The moment after Rhaegar crowns Lyanna. Why did Rhaegar winning cause her to be attracted to a Stark?

First there could have been some attraction between Ashera and Ned when they danced together and later Ashera took some initiative approaching Ned.  Ned being the shy one.  I think this is what Selmy meant when he says she turned to Stark.  Not something that happened immediately after Lyanna was crowned QOLAB.  Remember Selmy thinks that if had bested Rhaegar and he crowned Ashera; that she would have turned to him.  So he is fantasizing and seeing something that isn't there where Ashera is concerned, 

[EggBlue]

1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

I def think Brarristan was romanticizing Ashara. I don't think he got the eyes bit wrong though just because he was romanticizing her though. I also agree that she probably did not perceive the honor the same as Barristan did. Her sleeping around as a Dornish woman isn't a dishonor, it would have to be rape or something. I don't think Eddard would've let Ashara get raped, and Brandon doesn't sound rapey. 

I get your point. but Barristan is a Crownlander, therefore, in his mind Ashara sleeping with someone out of wedlock could mean dishonor in it self especially without promise of marriage. I believe the Stark Ashara looked to might have been Brandon who was already betrothed. even if she had an affair with Rhaegar afterwards , she could have been attracted to another at Harrenhal.

as for the crowning, why would Rhaegar want to crown Ashara initially? Aegon was born after Harrenhal.. any interest he might have had in Ashara for baby NO.3 would have been afterwards. not to mention, not even the worst of Targaryens were expected to crown their paramours in front of their wives.

1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Aerys and his rape incident has always been a possibility in the cards to for me honestly, as him raping Rhaella seems odd. She's his wife and we know they slept together to have kids many times. I don't see why it suddenly became rape after he allegedly became faithful.

  yeah , Aerys shouldn't be forgotten. I would even put Lyanna and Aerys together (that's at least better than B+L) . he is more likely to have Lyanna abducted ( in a scenario that L is KotLT), framed Rhaegar for it (by using some silver haired guy from king-loyal Driftmark )and later raped her (=Jon) .

but , Aerys raping Rhaella isn't exactly implausible. first of all, no one calls it rape in the books but it's completely possible that an abnormally aroused Aerys had hurt Rhaella in bed and had done things to her she didn't consent to.. especially after her eldest son had just died, I doubt Rhaella was in the mood for sex ... in modern day we count that as rape and unfortunately, it's not even unusual.

[The Bard of Banefort]

1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Weird moment to suddenly be "looking" to Stark. The moment after Rhaegar crowns Lyanna. Why did Rhaegar winning cause her to be attracted to a Stark?

I think he meant that if he had told Ashara how he felt, she may have sought his company instead of having a tryst with [redacted] Stark. Now he'll never know. 

I'm not a big fan of Barristan, but I think the "dishonor" he spoke of wasn't so much sleeping with Ashara, but then abandoning her (especially if she was pregnant) and presumably breaking her heart. If the Stark he was speaking of was Brandon (which it probably was) then we know he was on his way to marry Cat at the time of the abduction. Barristan might have thought that contributed to her suicide.

1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

This is an interesting idea. Im very much interested in ideas on how these plots of the Martells and Daynes could play out.

A million years ago, someone online said they heard a rumor that Edric Storm would seek out Daenerys in TWOW. It was some rando on reddit, so probably not true, but it's still something that could  possibly happen.

[Egged]

14 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Great catch on Dragonstone!

Great idea about the Lemon Tree planted for Elia too! I absolutely love that idea!

I definitely think Rhaegar was looking at Ashara in that vision and that Dany is seeing through Ashara's eyes. Which is why she tells Dany to remember the House of the Undying.

Aerys and his rape incident has always been a possibility in the cards to for me honestly, as him raping Rhaella seems odd. She's his wife and we know they slept together to have kids many times. I don't see why it suddenly became rape after he allegedly became faithful. Rhaegar I think had his eye on her as a surrogate mother though. So both are in the cards. I think he was originally going to crown Ashara, not Lyanna.

I still disagree on Jon being a Targ though but I understand why people think he is Rhaegar's and Lyannas. For me, Mance is Jon's father.

I believe Mance will tell Jon he is his father, and later Jon will be told Rhaegar was. In either case it might be true, and in both cases the reveal will have ultimately been to manipulate Jon. I think we will never know the truth, nor will Jon. Tyrion told him to wear his bastardry as armor so no one could use it to hurt him.

[AlaskanSandman]

4 hours ago, EggBlue said:

I get your point. but Barristan is a Crownlander, therefore, in his mind Ashara sleeping with someone out of wedlock could mean dishonor in it self especially without promise of marriage. I believe the Stark Ashara looked to might have been Brandon who was already betrothed. even if she had an affair with Rhaegar afterwards , she could have been attracted to another at Harrenhal.

as for the crowning, why would Rhaegar want to crown Ashara initially? Aegon was born after Harrenhal.. any interest he might have had in Ashara for baby NO.3 would have been afterwards. not to mention, not even the worst of Targaryens were expected to crown their paramours in front of their wives.

  yeah , Aerys shouldn't be forgotten. I would even put Lyanna and Aerys together (that's at least better than B+L) . he is more likely to have Lyanna abducted ( in a scenario that L is KotLT), framed Rhaegar for it (by using some silver haired guy from king-loyal Driftmark )and later raped her (=Jon) .

but , Aerys raping Rhaella isn't exactly implausible. first of all, no one calls it rape in the books but it's completely possible that an abnormally aroused Aerys had hurt Rhaella in bed and had done things to her she didn't consent to.. especially after her eldest son had just died, I doubt Rhaella was in the mood for sex ... in modern day we count that as rape and unfortunately, it's not even unusual.

I doing some research before I respond to some other things on here from you or other people, but to this I wanted to touch upon real quick (It leads me to think I need to draw up a much more detailed and longer theory for everyone.)

Aegon was born before Harrenhal, as Harrenhal happened the last 2 months of 281 as described in TWOIAF. With Aegon leaving K.L. shortly after returning, with half dozen of his closest companions (Arthur Dayne, Miles Mooton, Jon Con, Richard Lonmouth, Oswell Whent and Lewyn Martell) to supposedly kidnap Lyanna from the Riverlands not far from Harrenhal (Not sure what she was doing there). Lewyn supposedly helps to disrespect his grand niece for some reason.

I don't see there being time for Rhaegar to sail to Dragonstone for his kids birth, then sail to K.L. to get some Kings guard and friends, to then ride North to Harrenhal.

He went to Harrenhal Tourney knowing he needed a 3rd child. Aegon was born earlier in the year. 

 

These issues of time though I think may conflict with the idea that Aerys had time to make enough Wildfire (they could only make it fast enough for Tyrion even cause magic returned to the world).

 

Jon Con is called upon to lead the Battle of Gulltown also leading me to think Aerys knew exactly where Rhaegar and Jon Con was for him to call him. As Jon was with Rhaegar. Meaning, Rhaegar knew about the Rebellion possibly. Lewyn returns with Rheagar to K.L to lead the Dornish that have come up. Miles Mooton and Richard Lonmouth must have come with him. Cause Gerald Hightower who replaced Lewyn, was with only Oswell Whent and Arthur Dayne. 

Interstingly the two survivors of Rhaegar's crew kinda mirror the 2 survivors of Eddards crew to the Tower of Joy. Only 2 survive each pact of 7. With one going into hiding, Howland Reed and Richard Lonmouth, and the other 2 protecting Targs. With Jon Con protecting F/Aegon, and Eddard protecting Dany (And Jon if that's your fancy).

[Egged]

7 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

I doing some research before I respond to some other things on here from you or other people, but to this I wanted to touch upon real quick (It leads me to think I need to draw up a much more detailed and longer theory for everyone.)

Aegon was born before Harrenhal, as Harrenhal happened the last 2 months of 281 as described in TWOIAF. With Aegon leaving K.L. shortly after returning, with half dozen of his closest companions (Arthur Dayne, Miles Mooton, Jon Con, Richard Lonmouth, Oswell Whent and Lewyn Martell) to supposedly kidnap Lyanna from the Riverlands not far from Harrenhal (Not sure what she was doing there). Lewyn supposedly helps to disrespect his grand niece for some reason.

I don't see there being time for Rhaegar to sail to Dragonstone for his kids birth, then sail to K.L. to get some Kings guard and friends, to then ride North to Harrenhal.

He went to Harrenhal Tourney knowing he needed a 3rd child. Aegon was born earlier in the year. 

 

These issues of time though I think may conflict with the idea that Aerys had time to make enough Wildfire (they could only make it fast enough for Tyrion even cause magic returned to the world).

 

Jon Con is called upon to lead the Battle of Gulltown also leading me to think Aerys knew exactly where Rhaegar and Jon Con was for him to call him. As Jon was with Rhaegar. Meaning, Rhaegar knew about the Rebellion possibly. Lewyn returns with Rheagar to K.L to lead the Dornish that have come up. Miles Mooton and Richard Lonmouth must have come with him. Cause Gerald Hightower who replaced Lewyn, was with only Oswell Whent and Arthur Dayne. 

Interstingly the two survivors of Rhaegar's crew kinda mirror the 2 survivors of Eddards crew to the Tower of Joy. Only 2 survive each pact of 7. With one going into hiding, Howland Reed and Richard Lonmouth, and the other 2 protecting Targs. With Jon Con protecting F/Aegon, and Eddard protecting Dany (And Jon if that's your fancy).

Lyanna was likely in Riverrun, waiting as Brandon left to join his father’s party coming to the wedding. It would be while Brandon left that Lyanna herself left Riverrun and disappeared. She must have heard of some plot, like Arya, and left to reveal it but disappeared.

[Nevets]

I'm not sure who is being suggested as the substitute Daenerys.  Is it the child born on Dragonstone?  While I believe that child is Rhaella's, it certainly isn't Ashara's.  She was long gone by then.  In fact, during Rhaella's pregnancy she was in Starfall receiving her brother's sword from Ned Stark.

If it's Ashara's conceived around Harrenhal, then we're in Lemongate=changeling territory.  If so, Daenerys is 4 or 5 at least.  In order to do a switch, you need a child whose parents or guardians are willing to give her up, or are unable to prevent it, and a recipient willing to accept her.  Neither is present. 

The Daynes are unlikely to give her up to lead a dangerous and uncertain life in the Free Cities.  She would be perfectly safe and secure at Starfall.  I don't see the Martells getting involved either.  Judging by the marriage contract, they are placing their bets on Viserys.  The contract doesn't mention Daenerys because she is of no real importance.  She is the younger child, and a girl.  She is surplus.  In fact, she is a potential threat to their plans.  Viserys likely planned on marrying her himself, which would mean Arianne couldn't.  And if he marries her to someone else, it's for an army or the like.  The Martells would be cut out, and he could easily fail, or even be set up to, as was the case with Drogo.  If she already has a sister, so be it, but I can't see them providing one.

As for Quentyn and Daenerys, that was only set up after their plans with Viserys went up in smoke (literally).  It was done on the fly, and it shows. 

By the way, Jon wasn't conceived at Harrenhal, by Mance (really??) or anyone else.  He is far too young.  He is roughly Robb's age and is presented as being 1 or 2 months younger.  If he is 6-9 months older, that simply won't work.  Nobody will believe it.

Lyanns most likely remained in Harrenhal after the tournament.  Her brother was getting married in a few months, so it saves a long trip to and from Winterfell.  Plus, she is betrothed to a southerner, and so needs to learn southern customs and smooth out the rough edges.  And the Whents are Catelyn's mother's family.

I have no doubt Rhaegar took Lyanna, apparently by force.  Too many say he did and no one says he didn't.  Rhaegar himself never denied it.  Also, Ned discovered her at the Tower of Joy accompanied by three Kingsguards.  Why he did it I don't know, but he was certainly involved. 

I'm sure there are plenty of issues I've missed.

[Phylum of Alexandria]

43 minutes ago, Nevets said:

If it's Ashara's conceived around Harrenhal, then we're in Lemongate=changeling territory

Do you mind explaining Changeling theory? I am unaware, and a quick search did not yield anything.