Dorne for Daenerys, the Dayne Heiress.

[Nevets]

12 minutes ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

Do you mind explaining Changeling theory? I am unaware, and a quick search did not yield anything.

Lemongate is the idea that because the house she lived in as a small child had a lemon tree, it isn't in Braavos but in Dorne.  Basically her memories supposedly don't match reality.  It therefore follows that she isn't really Viserys's sister but a substitute, or a changeling. 

There are, of course, other explanations for the lemon tree, hence the reference to a changeling.  It's a pretty popular theory unfortunately.  As you can see, I don't believe it.

[Phylum of Alexandria]

3 minutes ago, Nevets said:

Lemongate is the idea that because the house she lived in as a small child had a lemon tree, it isn't in Braavos but in Dorne.  Basically her memories supposedly don't match reality.  It therefore follows that she isn't really Viserys's sister but a substitute, or a changeling. 

There are, of course, other explanations for the lemon tree, hence the reference to a changeling.  It's a pretty popular theory unfortunately.  As you can see, I don't believe it.

I see. I was aware of Lemongate, but the changeling reference threw me off.

I can't say I'm a fan of Lemongate as something that's good for the story (see my comment earlier in this thread), but still, GRRM has at least indicated that the notion of lemons being unlikely in Braavos is something he is intentionally working with, for some purpose. Not guaranteed, and not necessarily a good idea, but certainly possible.

[Nevets]

I fail to see the point of this theory.  So she's Rhaegar's daughter instead of Aerys's.  Big deal.  She's still a Targaryen princess and the only (known) Targaryen left.  She is no longer the result of incest involving a mad father .  Somehow that makes her story less interesting, not more.  And unless there is somehow proof, it changes her status in Westeros not a bit.

Speaking of proof, how are we as readers supposed to find this out?  I can't think of any POVs that would know, nor anyone else I would consider trustworthy. 

17 minutes ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

I see. I was aware of Lemongate, but the changeling reference threw me off.

I can't say I'm a fan of Lemongate as something that's good for the story (see my comment earlier in this thread), but still, GRRM has at least indicated that the notion of lemons being unlikely in Braavos is something he is intentionally working with, for some purpose. Not guaranteed, and not necessarily a good idea, but certainly possible.

I think there is something to it, but I think it indicates a higher level of Dornish involvement than previously indicated.  They were possibly hosted in Braavos by a very well-off Dornishman  or could potentially have secretly spent time in Dorne itself.  Which could pose interesting questions like "who knew?"

 

[Phylum of Alexandria]

3 minutes ago, Nevets said:

She's still a Targaryen princess and the only (known) Targaryen left.  She is no longer the result of incest involving a mad father

I agree that having the Mad King as a father is part of what makes Dany's story interesting, and some later revelation that it's not the case seems...wrong. Same goes for Tyrion and Tywin. Both of them have potential to relive their father's legacy (Tyrion much more so than Dany) but both also have the promise to break free from that mold.

[BlackLightning]

On 12/19/2021 at 12:30 PM, Egged said:

The only place with red doors in all of the books is the red doors to the great hall of Dragonstone.

Quote

Don't forget the red doors on the manse they stayed in in Braavos.

There is a chance that Dany could be misremembering her childhood home of infancy. But there is also a chance that she could be conflating her home in Braavos with her home in Dragonstone as the same place when they were two different places that she lived in.

Which is very common for people who can "remember" things from before the age of 5.

 

Between the lack of information about what the Targaryen Lords of Dragonstone were doing during the Century of Blood, to the quick references at how magical and mysterious the castle itself is, to the lack of information about what Visenya and Aegon would be doing on the island for such extended periods of time (time spent away from the capital) and Dany's wonky memories, there is a lot more to Dragonstone than what meets the eye. The show references this by showing that the CoTF and the First Men were present long enough on Dragonstone to leave runes.

[Targaryen Restoration]

On 12/19/2021 at 3:27 PM, Phylum of Alexandria said:

But then...Dany, who we've thought forever was the last surviving Targaryen is in fact an imposter?

The hatching of the dragon eggs would refute this idea.  It takes a very special Targaryen to resurrect the dragons after they went extinct.  Half-Dornish or Half-Dayne is not going to get it done.  The prince who was promised was required to come from the marriage bed of Aerys and Rhaella.  The Targaryens had allowed themselves to get polluted by marrying non Valyrians. 

Dany's family of origin is without question, House Targaryen.  Her soul is Azor Ahai and predate the Targaryens.  She is Azor Ahai who happened to be born into the Targaryen family at this time period.  She is the heir to Westeros because she succeeds Kings Aerys and Viserys. 

 

[Targaryen Restoration]

19 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Brandon and his sister? or Brandon and Ashara? Cause I believe Elio/Ran was into the Ashara and Brandon theory. Back in the day before he started working with George and not allowed to talk theories so much.

I thought I was clear.  Brandon was bopping Lyanna and Jon was conceived.  Lyanna Stark + Brandon Stark = Jon Snow.  I'll be more direct, Brandon and Lyanna were sleeping together.  Lyanna got knocked up and Jon Snow was conceived. 

[Nevets]

42 minutes ago, Targaryen Restoration said:

I thought I was clear.  Brandon was bopping Lyanna and Jon was conceived.  Lyanna Stark + Brandon Stark = Jon Snow.  I'll be more direct, Brandon and Lyanna were sleeping together.  Lyanna got knocked up and Jon Snow was conceived. 

A 15+ month pregnancy?  I'm impressed!  Must be some kind of record.  

Jon is presented as having been conceived after Robb, so he can't be much older.  And Lyanna disappeared some months before, and her last contact with Brandon was even earlier.  We're talking over 6 months, and that age difference won't fly if they are supposed to be the same age.  Nobody will believe it.  Look elsewhere. 

[AlaskanSandman]

8 hours ago, Nevets said:

I'm not sure who is being suggested as the substitute Daenerys.  Is it the child born on Dragonstone?  While I believe that child is Rhaella's, it certainly isn't Ashara's.  She was long gone by then.  In fact, during Rhaella's pregnancy she was in Starfall receiving her brother's sword from Ned Stark.

If it's Ashara's conceived around Harrenhal, then we're in Lemongate=changeling territory.  If so, Daenerys is 4 or 5 at least.  In order to do a switch, you need a child whose parents or guardians are willing to give her up, or are unable to prevent it, and a recipient willing to accept her.  Neither is present. 

The Daynes are unlikely to give her up to lead a dangerous and uncertain life in the Free Cities.  She would be perfectly safe and secure at Starfall.  I don't see the Martells getting involved either.  Judging by the marriage contract, they are placing their bets on Viserys.  The contract doesn't mention Daenerys because she is of no real importance.  She is the younger child, and a girl.  She is surplus.  In fact, she is a potential threat to their plans.  Viserys likely planned on marrying her himself, which would mean Arianne couldn't.  And if he marries her to someone else, it's for an army or the like.  The Martells would be cut out, and he could easily fail, or even be set up to, as was the case with Drogo.  If she already has a sister, so be it, but I can't see them providing one.

As for Quentyn and Daenerys, that was only set up after their plans with Viserys went up in smoke (literally).  It was done on the fly, and it shows. 

By the way, Jon wasn't conceived at Harrenhal, by Mance (really??) or anyone else.  He is far too young.  He is roughly Robb's age and is presented as being 1 or 2 months younger.  If he is 6-9 months older, that simply won't work.  Nobody will believe it.

Lyanns most likely remained in Harrenhal after the tournament.  Her brother was getting married in a few months, so it saves a long trip to and from Winterfell.  Plus, she is betrothed to a southerner, and so needs to learn southern customs and smooth out the rough edges.  And the Whents are Catelyn's mother's family.

I have no doubt Rhaegar took Lyanna, apparently by force.  Too many say he did and no one says he didn't.  Rhaegar himself never denied it.  Also, Ned discovered her at the Tower of Joy accompanied by three Kingsguards.  Why he did it I don't know, but he was certainly involved. 

I'm sure there are plenty of issues I've missed.

No one said Jon was conceived at Harrenhal. I said Mance is the one who kidnapped her, and took her to Winterfell Crypts. They had plenty of time and there is story set up for it with Bael, and also with Tormund taking Maege Mormont and having Alysane.  Where did Rhaegar get blue roses from in a pinch anyways? 

 

Dany was born in a summer storm in 284. Summer starts at june 20 during summer solstice. Now, this fits Dany's mythos as the "light bringer", but it means she was conceived by late Sept or Early Oct of 283AC. Which is impossible if she's the child of Aerys Targaryen and Rhaella. The Sack of K.L. happened by the summer and no later. With the start of the year being the wedding of Cat to Ned, then Battle of the Trident with Ned racing to K.L. right after. The trip only takes a couple weeks tops. Aery's was dead shortly after.

You may have to reside your self to disappointment as far as her being the child of Aerys and Rhaella (Who already had issues birthing, with 5 deaths.) 

Edit- Or she was born earlier and she's got the date wrong.

[AlaskanSandman]

If Dany is telling the truth, then really, the only persons who can be her parents are really Ashara Dayne and Eddard Stark.

[Egged]

6 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Don't forget the red doors on the manse they stayed in in Braavos.

There is a chance that Dany could be misremembering her childhood home of infancy. But there is also a chance that she could be conflating her home in Braavos with her home in Dragonstone as the same place when they were two different places that she lived in.

Which is very common for people who can "remember" things from before the age of 5.

 

Between the lack of information about what the Targaryen Lords of Dragonstone were doing during the Century of Blood, to the quick references at how magical and mysterious the castle itself is, to the lack of information about what Visenya and Aegon would be doing on the island for such extended periods of time (time spent away from the capital) and Dany's wonky memories, there is a lot more to Dragonstone than what meets the eye. The show references this by showing that the CoTF and the First Men were present long enough on Dragonstone to leave runes.

The red doors in Braavos are in Daenerys' memory. But on a factual level, no red doors are ever mentioned in the books except those of Dragonstone. Those we know actually exist, and they're the only ones we do know of.

She cannot have any memories of Dragonstone, unless she is older than she thinks she is, or has someone else's memories.

[AlaskanSandman]

If Dany was born earlier than she thinks, this would fit with accounts that there are no summer storms near Dragonstone. 

Starfall is near stormy seas though. We do not know if Ashara was at Dragonstone or Starfall, all we know is Ned returned the sword there. Jamie saw some one leave in the morning, while Viserys left at night. This could be Ashara Dayne as a decoy as Aerys had grown paranoid. It fits his behavior at the least. 

Things with Dany don't add up either way though, forcing people to question her. Least of all Lemongate

[AlaskanSandman]

Keep in mind, when ever Dany was truly born. Jon is a year younger than her. 

[AlaskanSandman]

 Considering Rhaegar had firmly aligned him self with Dorne. I don't see him flipping last moment on his allies. 

Lewyn Martell a K.G.

Elia Martell, his wife.

Arthur Dayne, a K.G. and his best friend.

With ties to Oberyn Martell who at the time, was tied up with Old Town. Marwyn, Mirri Maz Dur, Qyburn, and Maester Walgrave (Has a princes's lobster gauntlet and Oberyn trained at the Citadel). The Second Sons, and Brave Companions. Literally almost everyone helping Dany. 

Walgrave is the most interesting. As Walgrave is linked to Walys, and Rickards southern ambitions. With it being implied they had enough sway at the Citadel to be sent where they wanted.

Maesters only rose up with the Targaryens, supplanting the Pyromancers. With Old Town not originally being a part of the Reach till they married in. Could the Martells have deep ties to the Maesters and be why the Maesters were shunned for so long?

Dorne and the Martells who are the closest to the Step Stones where Pirates who take slaves from the North rest. Where Aerys was planning on taking over at. 

With Rhaegars friend Richard Lonmouth being with Edric Dayne and Beric who is engaged to Alyria Dayne.

To me, the clues point Daenerys towards Dorne, the Daynes, and Rheagar Targaryen. With Eddard doing something to help protect Dany, hence Edric being named for Ned.

[AlaskanSandman]

Its a renewed war of the Nine Penny Kings. Which saw every house fighting for the Crown in a grand unification of force. Something Aerys needed to renew the war. Rheagar, and Aerys, were not trying to make war in Westeros. They wanted peace.

Quellon Grey Joy's 3rd wife was from the Riverlands. 

Blackfish was supposed to marry a  Bethany Redwyne but Hoster lost the Reach due to the Blackfish. 

Tyrion was proposed to Lysa Tully, Yohn Royce's daughter, Leyton Hightowers daughter, and Delena Florent. Tryion ruined any chance of Tywin aligning with everyone, and Tywin snubbed Dorne's proposal of Elia to Jamie, or Cersei to Doran.

[AlaskanSandman]

Tywin did how ever have two connection to the Frey's through his sister Genna, and Andros Brax who was proposed to Cat or Lysa by his father but snubbed by Hoster Tully. Who ever Brax wed, his first child's name is Tytos. 

 

Edit- Brax's third child is married to a Frey. Morya Frey.

[AlaskanSandman]

Quiathe is possibly using glass candles to visit Dany in ADWD after glass candles have awoken, and Marwyn who is working with Dorne and Alleras/ Sarella, has access to one.

 

The clues are there imo

[Khal Rhaego Targaryen]

Rhaegar+Ashara = Dany... It is known!

[Nevets]

1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

No one said Jon was conceived at Harrenhal. I said Mance is the one who kidnapped her, and took her to Winterfell Crypts. They had plenty of time and there is story set up for it with Bael, and also with Tormund taking Maege Mormont and having Alysane.  Where did Rhaegar get blue roses from in a pinch anyways? 

 

Dany was born in a summer storm in 284. Summer starts at june 20 during summer solstice. Now, this fits Dany's mythos as the "light bringer", but it means she was conceived by late Sept or Early Oct of 283AC. Which is impossible if she's the child of Aerys Targaryen and Rhaella. The Sack of K.L. happened by the summer and no later. With the start of the year being the wedding of Cat to Ned, then Battle of the Trident with Ned racing to K.L. right after. The trip only takes a couple weeks tops. Aery's was dead shortly after.

You may have to reside your self to disappointment as far as her being the child of Aerys and Rhaella (Who already had issues birthing, with 5 deaths.) 

Edit- Or she was born earlier and she's got the date wrong.

Summer solstice?  Did you say solstice?!?  There's no solstices in Westeros!  The seasons last an indefinite period, often for years.  Or did you forget that prominent fact?  I wonder what else you forgot.

Maybe that Lyanna was found in Dorne, a very, very long way from Winterfell, accompanied by three Kingsguards, who have nothing to do with Mance.  Rhaegar gave her blue roses at Harrenhal if I recall, an incident witnessed by hundreds of people, so he obviously got them somewhere.  BTW, if Rhaegar h a d nothing to do with Lyanna's kidnapping, why did he accept responsibility for it?

[AlaskanSandman]

4 hours ago, Nevets said:

Summer solstice?  Did you say solstice?!?  There's no solstices in Westeros!  The seasons last an indefinite period, often for years.  Or did you forget that prominent fact?  I wonder what else you forgot.

Maybe that Lyanna was found in Dorne, a very, very long way from Winterfell, accompanied by three Kingsguards, who have nothing to do with Mance.  Rhaegar gave her blue roses at Harrenhal if I recall, an incident witnessed by hundreds of people, so he obviously got them somewhere.  BTW, if Rhaegar h a d nothing to do with Lyanna's kidnapping, why did he accept responsibility for it?

They state the season's were normal once, and that they currently are weird cause of magic. So, the planet still rotates the sun, and has a zenith. I hardly think describing her as born during a summer storm, is so vague as to be any time during the year.  

 When and where did Rhaegar take responsibility for kidnapping Lyanna? I must've forgotten that part for sure. And saying "He obviously got them from some where's" is not a logical explanation for "How", he got them, which was the question. Not the fact on whether or not he actually had them and gave them, which is not being disputed. 

No, Lyanna was not for sure at the Tower of Joy, no where other than Eddard's "unreliable memory" was she anywhere near the Tower of Joy. As GRRM has stated, Eddard is having fever dreams, and they are not to be trusted or fully accurate. 

Eddard rode into the Tower of Joy, with 6 other men. On horses. Yet, he could only bring Lyanna's body home? Despite having enough horses to bring everyone's body back home. He brought Lady Dustin her husbands horse, but couldn't put the body on the horse? Remarkably, horses are quite good at carrying things. Like people. Its not rocket science to rope up a bunch of horses and lead them somewhere. Im sure Eddard could figure it out. 

Lyanna's body was the only one brought home, because it was the only one already home. 

 

Quote

 

The World of Ice and Fire - The Stormlands: Storm’s End

It is said that, every seventy-seven years, a storm greater than all others comes howling down upon Storm's End, as the old gods of sea and sky try once more to blow Durran's seat into the sea. It is a pretty tale...but a tale is all it is. The records of the maesters of Storm's End show that there are fierce storms nearly every year, especially in autumn, and whilst some are greater than others, there are no records that show unusually powerful storms seventy-seven years apart. The greatest storm in living memory was in 221 AC, in the last year of the reign of Aerys I, and the greatest before that was the storm of 166 AC, fifty-five years earlier.

 

 

 

So weird how autumn still comes around every year. Even with years of summer. 

 

What did I forget? I forgot already