Dorne for Daenerys, the Dayne Heiress.

[AlaskanSandman]

Side note.

Tormund likely slept with Maege Mormont, not Alysane. 

Tormund has a silver beard and a child of age or older than Jon. Where as Alysane's oldest kid is only 9.

Tormund has 5 sons while Maege has 5 daughters.

 

Either Alysane or Maege is keeping secrets from House Stark.

If its Maege as I suspect, this means Tormund was pulling a Bael before Harrenhal. If this is a move to become King, he was stopped by Mance Rayder, who doesn't leave the Watch till after Oorgyles death. Qorgyle was L.C when Tormund came south.

Qorgyle is connected to Dorne and Oberyn Martell possibly. Not to mention the Rhaegar Martell connection, with Aemon talking to Rhaegar, and Aemon serving Qorgyle.

 

What ever is going on, there is more to it than we have figured out. Whether Rhaegar hooked up with Lyanna or Ashara or what ever. Mance, Gorgyle, and Oberyn are seemingly linked. 

Qorgyle and Mance visit Rickard Stark, and Rickard Stark visited K.L. and spoke to Aerys II who wanted to extend the North and build a new wall. While also building canals in Dorne.

Then there is the slaver issue out of the Step stone taking slaves from beyond the Wall.

Like I said, even with a Rhaegar and Lyanna theory, these clues seem like they should matter. I dont think things are as simple as we think they are.

 

[X-Buster]

Khaleesi of the Great Grass Sea. 

Queen of Meereen. 

The Mother of Dragons. 

Mhysa. 

Princess Daenerys Targaryen, Heir to Westeros.  

Azor Ahai

The Unburnt

She is all of the above.  Adding her to the Daynes will not serve the story for the better.  She already has a lot to do and many roles to fulfill.  

Ned Dayne has an important role to fill.  He will lead the Daynes and contest Darkstar Dayne for the sword.  

 

[AlaskanSandman]

45 minutes ago, Unit A2 said:

Khaleesi of the Great Grass Sea. 

Queen of Meereen. 

The Mother of Dragons. 

Mhysa. 

Princess Daenerys Targaryen, Heir to Westeros.  

Azor Ahai

The Unburnt

She is all of the above.  Adding her to the Daynes will not serve the story for the better.  She already has a lot to do and many roles to fulfill.  

Ned Dayne has an important role to fill.  He will lead the Daynes and contest Darkstar Dayne for the sword.  

 

Why is that? Because she rides dragons and woke dragons? We are told it wasn't the Valyrians who created or tamed dragons, so why would such things be exclusive to Targaryen's now? No one else can figure out how to do it other than Targaryens? 

Being a Targ makes her special because she hatched dragons and brought magic back. Though, as I said, Targaryen's aren't the ones who created or woke dragons the first time. 

If she really brought back magic, then why is there a Oswyn Long Neck the Thrice Hanged as a part of the Kings Wood Brotherhood? Sounds like Beric and magic.

Vayr's had his man parts cut off and a voice spoke from the flames. All before the return of dragons.

 

I really don't think Targaryen's are all that special.

[LynnS]

21 hours ago, EggBlue said:

I believe so too. these three were honorable by Ned's standards and that is exactly the point. we could assume the crown prince had ordered them to keep Lyanna and his child safe and kingsgaurd are bound to obey the royalty. we could even assume they still stayed at the tower instead of going to their king since they still saw themselves bound to the dead man's orders (though , I find it a little weird that all three stayed there when they must have known their sworn brothers had died alongside Rhaegar leaving Aerys and Rhaegar's heir with only one teenage white sword ). but what about afterwards? Lyanna and the child were definitely not in harm's way from Ned. if they feared for the boy they could take him as soon as he was born or even Lyanna who was still not in labor about a week or two before Ned arrived and go hide somewhere safe. but they stayed on a pointless suicide mission. 

At this point, I don't think Lyanna died at the tower of joy or Starfall even though we can place Jon Snow at Starfall.  I think the strongest evidence against that now is the winter rose:

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Eddard XV

Ned Stark reached out his hand to grasp the flowery crown, but beneath the pale blue petals the thorns lay hidden. He felt them clawing at his skin, sharp and cruel, saw the slow trickle of blood run down his fingers, and woke, trembling, in the dark.

Promise me, Ned, his sister had whispered from her bed of blood. She had loved the scent of winter roses.

 

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Eddard I

"She should be on a hill somewhere, under a fruit tree, with the sun and clouds above her and the rain to wash her clean."

"I was with her when she died," Ned reminded the king. "She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father." He could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. After that he remembered nothing. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his. Ned could recall none of it. "I bring her flowers when I can," he said. "Lyanna was … fond of flowers."

 

I think we can now identify the winter rose as the hellibore.  It blooms at a specific time of year, late winter to early spring and it's natural habitat is grasslands and wooded areas.  I don't think Dorne has suitable climate or soil conditions for it to grow. It seems clear that Ned identifies the scent of the winter rose in the room and place where Lyanna died.

Whatever the KG were doing in the South has something to do with their vows to the king and Rhaegar.  I think the only thing that would supercede their vows to protect Aerys or Rhaegar would be Aegon in my view.  I don't think it's out of the question that Rhaegar took steps to hide and protect him since he thought he was TPWIP.

Aerys does not seem to know about it.  Rhaegar could bot be found:

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Jaime III

"No." It all came back to him. Jon Connington had been Prince Rhaegar's friend. When Merryweather failed so dismally to contain Robert's Rebellion and Prince Rhaegar could not be found, Aerys had turned to the next best thing, and raised Connington to the Handship. But the Mad King was always chopping off his Hands. He had chopped Lord Jon after the Battle of the Bells, stripping him of honors, lands, and wealth, and packing him off across the sea to die in exile, where he soon drank himself to death. The cousin, though—Red Ronnet's father—had joined the rebellion and been rewarded with Griffin's Roost after the Trident. He only got the castle, though; Robert kept the gold, and bestowed the greater part of the Connington lands on more fervent supporters.

He later returns from the south:

Quote

 

A Storm of Swords - Jaime V

He floated in heat, in memory. "After dancing griffins lost the Battle of the Bells, Aerys exiled him." Why am I telling this absurd ugly child? "He had finally realized that Robert was no mere outlaw lord to be crushed at whim, but the greatest threat House Targaryen had faced since Daemon Blackfyre. The king reminded Lewyn Martell gracelessly that he held Elia and sent him to take command of the ten thousand Dornishmen coming up the kingsroad. Jon Darry and Barristan Selmy rode to Stoney Sept to rally what they could of griffins' men, and Prince Rhaegar returned from the south and persuaded his father to swallow his pride and summon my father. But no raven returned from Casterly Rock, and that made the king even more afraid. He saw traitors everywhere, and Varys was always there to point out any he might have missed. So His Grace commanded his alchemists to place caches of wildfire all over King's Landing. Beneath Baelor's Sept and the hovels of Flea Bottom, under stables and storehouses, at all seven gates, even in the cellars of the Red Keep itself.

 

I think it more likely that Rhaegar was with Doran Martell or Oberyn than at the tower of joy.

I think the TOJ was a convenient meeting place and a challenge was issued to Ned for a form of trial by champion.  If the KG felt soiled because they were unable to protect their king and the prince; then they can subject themselves to trial and be judged by the gods.  Ned perhaps has an even bigger grievance with the crown than Robert.  Ned was told when and where to meet them.  Following the form of a trial by seven, he brings six good men with him.  The KG are determined to die fighting as they should have done for their king.  They refuse to flee or turn coat.  

It's difficult to know what Howland did to save Ned's life only that he had to ensure Ned lived so the next generation of Starks could be born.  The same could be said about Lyanna and Howland may have had something to do with that as well.

 

[AlaskanSandman]

13 hours ago, LynnS said:

At this point, I don't think Lyanna died at the tower of joy or Starfall even though we can place Jon Snow at Starfall.  I think the strongest evidence against that now is the winter rose:

 

I think we can now identify the winter rose as the hellibore.  It blooms at a specific time of year, late winter to early spring and it's natural habitat is grasslands and wooded areas.  I don't think Dorne has suitable climate or soil conditions for it to grow. It seems clear that Ned identifies the scent of the winter rose in the room and place where Lyanna died.

Whatever the KG were doing in the South has something to do with their vows to the king and Rhaegar.  I think the only thing that would supercede their vows to protect Aerys or Rhaegar would be Aegon in my view.  I don't think it's out of the question that Rhaegar took steps to hide and protect him since he thought he was TPWIP.

Aerys does not seem to know about it.  Rhaegar could bot be found:

He later returns from the south:

I think it more likely that Rhaegar was with Doran Martell or Oberyn than at the tower of joy.

I think the TOJ was a convenient meeting place and a challenge was issued to Ned for a form of trial by champion.  If the KG felt soiled because they were unable to protect their king and the prince; then they can subject themselves to trial and be judged by the gods.  Ned perhaps has an even bigger grievance with the crown than Robert.  Ned was told when and where to meet them.  Following the form of a trial by seven, he brings six good men with him.  The KG are determined to die fighting as they should have done for their king.  They refuse to flee or turn coat.  

It's difficult to know what Howland did to save Ned's life only that he had to ensure Ned lived so the next generation of Starks could be born.  The same could be said about Lyanna and Howland may have had something to do with that as well.

 

Its certainly an interesting idea and I especially like the Winter Rose bit. That WInter Rose is a big point of interest for me (As I suspect Mance of bringing it to Winterfell. I don't see how Rhaegar would get it in a pinch, when its spring at Harrenhal. I don't think the Starks would've brought it either.) 

I like the inclusion of Oberyn into your theory though and think Oberyn was def up to something. 

What's your thoughts on the 4 loyal Targayen's and Darry, being Stark men? The missing Stark men from the Tower? (Not my theory but I do honestly like it)

 

Some quotes though on my point with Dorne.

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - The Watcher
"By ship?" Ser Balon seemed taken aback. "That … would that be safe, my prince? Autumn is a bad season for storms, or so I've heard, and … the pirates in the Stepstones, they …"
"The pirates. To be sure. You may be right, ser. Safer to return the way you came." Prince Doran smiled pleasantly. "Let us talk again on the morrow. When we reach the Water Gardens, we can tell Myrcella. I know how excited she will be. She misses her brother too, I do not doubt."

 
So we can see from a few quotes that the Step Stones are a dangerous place, even for the Martells to travel by sea.
 
 

Quote

The Winds of Winter - Arianne I
"Elephants," Lady Nymella said firmly.
"And krakens off the Broken Arm, pulling under crippled galleys," said Valena. "The blood draws them to the surface, our maester claims. There are bodies in the water. A few have washed up on our shores. And that's not half of it. A new pirate king has set up on Torturer's Deep. The Lord of the Waters, he styles himself. This one has real warships, three-deckers, monstrous large. You were wise not to come by sea. Since the Redwyne fleet passed through the Stepstones, those waters are crawling with strange sails, all the way north to the Straights of Tarth and Shipbreaker's Bay. Myrmen, Volantenes, Lyseni, even reavers from the Iron Islands. Some have entered the Sea of Dorne to land men on the south shore of Cape Wrath. We found a good fast ship for you, as your father commanded, but even so... be careful."

 
 
Some pirates are even landing in Dorne.
 
 

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - The Blind Girl
The next morning, when the kindly man asked her what three things she knew that she had not known before, she was ready.
"I know why the Sealord seized the Goodheart. She was carrying slaves. Hundreds of slaves, women and children, roped together in her hold." Braavos had been founded by escaped slaves, and the slave trade was forbidden here.
"I know where the slaves came from. They were wildlings from Westeros, from a place called Hardhome. An old ruined place, accursed." Old Nan had told her tales of Hardhome, back at Winterfell when she had still been Arya Stark. "After the big battle where the King-Beyond-the-Wall was killed, the wildlings ran away, and this woods witch said that if they went to Hardhome, ships would come and carry them away to someplace warm. But no ships came, except these two Lyseni pirates, Goodheart and Elephant, that had been driven north by a storm. They dropped anchor off Hardhome to make repairs, and saw the wildlings, but there were thousands and they didn't have room for all of them, so they said they'd just take the women and the children. The wildlings had nothing to eat, so the men sent out their wives and daughters, but as soon as the ships were out to sea, the Lyseni drove them below and roped them up. They meant to sell them all in Lys. Only then they ran into another storm and the ships were parted. The Goodheart was so damaged her captain had no choice but to put in here, but the Elephant may have made it back to Lys. The Lyseni at Pynto's think that she'll return with more ships. The price of slaves is rising, they said, and there are thousands more women and children at Hardhome."

 
 
Arya reports pirates from Lys sailing to the North and getting slaves.
 

Quote

A Feast for Crows - The Iron Captain
"He took the Silence east. A lengthy voyage."
"I asked why he went, not where." When he did not answer, Asha said, "I was away when Silence sailed. I had taken Black Wind around the Arbor to the Stepstones, to steal a few trinkets from the Lyseni pirates. When I came home, Euron was gone and your new wife was dead."

 
Here we can see that Lyseni Pirates can be found in the StepStones.
 
 

Quote

The World of Ice and Fire - The Free Cities: The Quarrelsome Daughters: Myr, Lys, and Tyrosh
Whereas Lorath, Norvos, and Qohor were founded for religious reasons, the interests of Lys, Tyrosh, and Myr have always been mercantile. All three cities have large merchant fleets, and their traders sail all the world's seas. All three cities are deeply involved in the slave trade as well. Tyroshi slavers are especially aggressive, even going so far as to sail north beyond the Wall in search of wildling slaves, whilst the Lyseni are famously voracious in seeking out comely young boys and fair maids for their city's famous pillow houses.

 
 
Not just the Lyseni are going North for Slaves either, the Tyroshi are even more aggressive. 
 

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys I
Her brother hung the gown beside the door. "Illyrio will send the slaves to bathe you. Be sure you wash off the stink of the stables. Khal Drogo has a thousand horses, tonight he looks for a different sort of mount." He studied her critically. "You still slouch. Straighten yourself." He pushed back her shoulders with his hands. "Let them see that you have a woman's shape now." His fingers brushed lightly over her budding breasts and tightened on a nipple. "You will not fail me tonight. If you do, it will go hard for you. You don't want to wake the dragon, do you?" His fingers twisted her, the pinch cruelly hard through the rough fabric of her tunic. "Do you?" he repeated.

Yet, over in Pentos, we can see that Ilyrio has slaves and profits off of the slave trade.

 

So, Imo, there is reason for Mance and Qorgyle to speak with Rickard Stark, Aerys II, and Doran/Oberyn on the subject of slavers, pirates, and the stepstones. Aerys was going to extend the north and build canals in Dorne which Qorgyles profit from the most, being in the middle of the desert. Along with taking the Step Stones. 

Then Oberyn has possible ties to Maester Walgrave and Maester Walys (By way of the princes gauntlet, and Sarella), along with Maester Marwyn. Meaning the southern ambitions of Rickard could be tied to Oberyn's plans. Oberyn, who was fostered with the Qorgyles and know their water shortage problems, along with the Step Stones pirates. 

 

This also sets up Illyrio and Varys as an opposing force to the Martells and ties in the larger plots of Slavery and Essos, of which Dany is tied to. Breaking up the slave trade to the probable dismay of Illyrio, and joy of the Martells.

 

Whats more, is it plausibly finally gives us some sort of explanation for what Rhaegar and Aerys were really up to. 

[AlaskanSandman]

The only house left out of the War of the Nine Penny Kings, is House Reach. Who hate the Martells, and Olenna even talks smack about Elaria.

Yet Oberyn is friends with Willas, who is the heir to Highgarden. So I think there is a chance that we can see the Reach change sides to Dorne by the End. Possibly bringing peace between these two realms long at war with each other.

So I still suspect Olenna and Tywin of having small roles in the Down fall of Aerys and Rhaegar, I do think there is a chance that Highgarden will change allegiances. Specially if both houses find common cause against House Lannister, which people like Varys have already pitted against each other.

[LynnS]

26 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Its certainly an interesting idea and I especially like the Winter Rose bit. That WInter Rose is a big point of interest for me (As I suspect Mance of bringing it to Winterfell. I don't see how Rhaegar would get it in a pinch, when its spring at Harrenhal. I don't think the Starks would've brought it either.) 

I don't think the winter rose is as rare as we think it is.  The Starks are too far north for the hellebore to bloom naturally, so they keep it in the greenhouse.  I think the point is that it was in season at Harrenhall and that's why it was available.  Since it is a poisonous plant that blooms every year between mid-winter and early spring; the Whents, their servants and maester would certainly know about it. 

All You Ever Wanted to Know About the Magical Hellebore Plant - Garden and Happy

 

Quote

 

While ancient herbalists occasionally used hellebore to heal, its primary role was more sinister. Basically, it was most often used as a poison. Its unlucky victims eventually died of cardiac arrest after nausea, vomiting, tongue and throat swelling, and a slowed heart rate.

This flower tends to be burning and acrid in its interactions with the human body. As a result, careless handling can cause skin irritations and ulcers. It’s best to handle hellebore with gloves and keep this plant out of the reach of children and pets.

 

The Starks would certainly know about these properties including Lyanna.  The question is why winter roses were offered in the first place to anyone.  It's literally and figuratively a poison crown.  I doubt this is what was originally intended for a flower garland and the Whents would have sent for something from Highgarden. 

Not everyone understood the message including Selmy. It explains why the Starks were so upset. Aerys was probably right that Jon Arryn was plotting against the crown. The Starks were involved with reaching for the crown by tying their house with Robert through marriage.   I think this is the message of the poisoned crown offered to Lyanna.  I think it's more about Aerys' suspicions than Mance or Bael the Bard.

I'm sorry, I don't have an opinion on your second question.

   

[AlaskanSandman]

9 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I don't think the winter rose is as rare as we think it is.  The Starks are too far north for the hellebore to bloom naturally, so they keep it in the greenhouse.  I think the point is that it was in season at Harrenhall and that's why it was available.  Since it is a poisonous plant that blooms every year between mid-winter and early spring; the Whents, their servants and maester would certainly know about it. 

All You Ever Wanted to Know About the Magical Hellebore Plant - Garden and Happy

 

The Starks would certainly know about these properties including Lyanna.  The question is why winter roses were offered in the first place to anyone.  It's literally and figuratively a poison crown.  I doubt this is what was originally intended for a flower garland and the Whents would have sent for something from Highgarden. 

Not everyone understood the message including Selmy. It explains why the Starks were so upset. Aerys was probably right that Jon Arryn was plotting against the crown. The Starks were involved with reaching for the crown by tying their house with Robert through marriage.   I think this is the message of the poisoned crown offered to Lyanna.  I think it's more about Aerys' suspicions than Mance or Bael the Bard.

I'm sorry, I don't have an opinion on your second question.

   

Well thats a good point about the garden. As to the rest, Idk, maybe. Im most interested in what Dorne was up to though as a way of explaining either way what Rhaegar and Aerys were up to. Jon Arryn plotting against the crown when' he doesn't even have an heir doesn't sound like the smart and patient Jon Arryn we're told about though.

Edit- One of Jon's own direct line. Not the one killed by Aerys.

[AlaskanSandman]

12 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I don't think the winter rose is as rare as we think it is.  The Starks are too far north for the hellebore to bloom naturally, so they keep it in the greenhouse.  I think the point is that it was in season at Harrenhall and that's why it was available.  Since it is a poisonous plant that blooms every year between mid-winter and early spring; the Whents, their servants and maester would certainly know about it. 

All You Ever Wanted to Know About the Magical Hellebore Plant - Garden and Happy

 

The Starks would certainly know about these properties including Lyanna.  The question is why winter roses were offered in the first place to anyone.  It's literally and figuratively a poison crown.  I doubt this is what was originally intended for a flower garland and the Whents would have sent for something from Highgarden. 

Not everyone understood the message including Selmy. It explains why the Starks were so upset. Aerys was probably right that Jon Arryn was plotting against the crown. The Starks were involved with reaching for the crown by tying their house with Robert through marriage.   I think this is the message of the poisoned crown offered to Lyanna.  I think it's more about Aerys' suspicions than Mance or Bael the Bard.

I'm sorry, I don't have an opinion on your second question.

   

The idea that the "rare, northern" rose, does not in fact grow in the North, but actually the Riverlands. Does not sound right. You would think we would have heard about it much more then. It also wouldn't be known for the North.

[AlaskanSandman]

44 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Its certainly an interesting idea and I especially like the Winter Rose bit. That WInter Rose is a big point of interest for me (As I suspect Mance of bringing it to Winterfell. I don't see how Rhaegar would get it in a pinch, when its spring at Harrenhal. I don't think the Starks would've brought it either.) 

I like the inclusion of Oberyn into your theory though and think Oberyn was def up to something. 

What's your thoughts on the 4 loyal Targayen's and Darry, being Stark men? The missing Stark men from the Tower? (Not my theory but I do honestly like it)

 

Some quotes though on my point with Dorne.

 

 
So we can see from a few quotes that the Step Stones are a dangerous place, even for the Martells to travel by sea.
 
 

 
 
Some pirates are even landing in Dorne.
 
 

 
 
Arya reports pirates from Lys sailing to the North and getting slaves.
 

 
Here we can see that Lyseni Pirates can be found in the StepStones.
 
 

 
 
Not just the Lyseni are going North for Slaves either, the Tyroshi are even more aggressive. 
 

Yet, over in Pentos, we can see that Ilyrio has slaves and profits off of the slave trade.

 

So, Imo, there is reason for Mance and Qorgyle to speak with Rickard Stark, Aerys II, and Doran/Oberyn on the subject of slavers, pirates, and the stepstones. Aerys was going to extend the north and build canals in Dorne which Qorgyles profit from the most, being in the middle of the desert. Along with taking the Step Stones. 

Then Oberyn has possible ties to Maester Walgrave and Maester Walys (By way of the princes gauntlet, and Sarella), along with Maester Marwyn. Meaning the southern ambitions of Rickard could be tied to Oberyn's plans. Oberyn, who was fostered with the Qorgyles and know their water shortage problems, along with the Step Stones pirates. 

 

This also sets up Illyrio and Varys as an opposing force to the Martells and ties in the larger plots of Slavery and Essos, of which Dany is tied to. Breaking up the slave trade to the probable dismay of Illyrio, and joy of the Martells.

 

Whats more, is it plausibly finally gives us some sort of explanation for what Rhaegar and Aerys were really up to. 

This is a subject no one is touching and I find it interesting. We know that F/aegon is a plot device associated with Ilyrio and Varys, and suspected to be a Blackfyre. We know Ilyrio supports the slave trade. 

We know that Dorne was planning to wed Viserys to Arianne and that was mysteriously ruined. With Viserys and Daenerys being forced into destitute and losing all support. Leading them to Ilyrio.

We know there are slavers hitting Hardhome and the North. 

To me, it gives the plot device which connects most plots. Braavos, Slavers Bay, Dorne, the North, etc. 

Even assuming Rhaegar and Lyanna are Jon's parents. Im very interested in peoples ideas on how the slave issue connects everything. Rhaegar being Jon's father does not negate the possibility that Mance was at Harrenhal and spoke to Rhaegar about the slavers. Mance knows Qorgyle, who may know Oberyn who was fostered with the Qorgyles, and Oberyns sister is Rhaegar's wife. 

[LynnS]

29 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

The idea that the "rare, northern" rose, does not in fact grow in the North, but actually the Riverlands.

Where does it say this in the text?  I need to see it in context.

[EggBlue]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

The Starks would certainly know about these properties including Lyanna.  The question is why winter roses were offered in the first place to anyone.  It's literally and figuratively a poison crown.  I doubt this is what was originally intended for a flower garland and the Whents would have sent for something from Highgarden. 

Not everyone understood the message including Selmy. It explains why the Starks were so upset. Aerys was probably right that Jon Arryn was plotting against the crown. The Starks were involved with reaching for the crown by tying their house with Robert through marriage.   I think this is the message of the poisoned crown offered to Lyanna.  I think it's more about Aerys' suspicions than Mance or Bael the Bard.

I suppose one thing we can be sure is that Martin's winter rose isn't literally poisonous:) why would Lyanna be fond of a poisonous flower? 

the more I think about it , the more I become convinced that winter rose crown can only have a symbolic role in the series rather than holding an actual deliberate message within the plot. the crown must have been prepared beforehand , even presented to the guests prior to the jousting. nobody knew who would win ... no body was surprised by what flowers Rhaegar presented as the crown or the manner he did it (using the tip of the lance) ...basically everything seemed normal before he passed his wife to get to Lyanna.

[AlaskanSandman]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

Where does it say this in the text?  I need to see it in context.

A Clash of Kings - Jon VI

"Some woman. Most of them are." Someone had said that to him once. He did not remember who.

She smiled again, a flash of white teeth. "And she never sung you the song o' the winter rose?"

"I never knew my mother. Or any such song."

 

A Game of Thrones - Eddard XIII

He was walking through the crypts beneath Winterfell, as he had walked a thousand times before. The Kings of Winter watched him pass with eyes of ice, and the direwolves at their feet turned their great stone heads and snarled. Last of all, he came to the tomb where his father slept, with Brandon and Lyanna beside him. "Promise me, Ned," Lyanna's statue whispered. She wore a garland of pale blue roses, and her eyes wept blood.

 

A Clash of Kings - Jon VI

"North or south, singers always find a ready welcome, so Bael ate at Lord Stark's own table, and played for the lord in his high seat until half the night was gone. The old songs he played, and new ones he'd made himself, and he played and sang so well that when he was done, the lord offered to let him name his own reward. 'All I ask is a flower,' Bael answered, 'the fairest flower that blooms in the gardens o' Winterfell.'"

"Now as it happened the winter roses had only then come into bloom, and no flower is so rare nor precious. So the Stark sent to his glass gardens and commanded that the most beautiful o' the winter roses be plucked for the singer's payment. And so it was done. But when morning come, the singer had vanished . . . and so had Lord Brandon's maiden daughter. Her bed they found empty, but for the pale blue rose that Bael had left on the pillow where her head had lain."

 

A Game of Thrones - Eddard X

"And now it begins," said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light.

"No," Ned said with sadness in his voice. "Now it ends." As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow, he could hear Lyanna screaming. "Eddard!" she called. A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death.

 

Its described as a Rose multiple times in different context first of all, so no way to know if you're right or not. Hellebore does not actually look like a rose and does not grow on thorny bushes as Roses do.

 

https://myattlandscapingblog.files.wordpress.com/2019/03/helleborus.jpg

 

A Game of Thrones - Eddard XV

Robert had been jesting with Jon and old Lord Hunter as the prince circled the field after unhorsing Ser Barristan in the final tilt to claim the champion's crown. Ned remembered the moment when all the smiles died, when Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beauty's laurel in Lyanna's lap. He could see it still: a crown of winter roses, blue as frost.

Ned Stark reached out his hand to grasp the flowery crown, but beneath the pale blue petals the thorns lay hidden. He felt them clawing at his skin, sharp and cruel, saw the slow trickle of blood run down his fingers, and woke, trembling, in the dark.

 

So, while im not fully convinced the Winter Rose is not a rose. Its described as rare, and no one in the south mentions Hellebore or Winter roses. Also, if its in the Reach all over Harrenhal, then its not rare at all, and everyone in the south should be familiar with it. It grows in central and lower Europe. Except for water logged land, which the river lands are. So if they grew anywhere in Westeros, they would grow in the Reach. Not Riverrun. 

But normal roses have to be grown in a garden in the North either way. So there is not enough evidence to suggest you are right. In Alaska we brought our rose bushes inside every winter. 

Im not discrediting it though either. Im just not fully on board with all you put forward. 

 

[LynnS]

2 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

then its not rare at all

Where does it say in the text that it's rare?   Martin calls the flower, the winter rose.  That is the other name for Hellibore.

[AlaskanSandman]

13 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Where does it say in the text that it's rare?   Martin calls the flower, the winter rose.  That is the other name for Hellibore.

A Clash of Kings - Jon VI

"North or south, singers always find a ready welcome, so Bael ate at Lord Stark's own table, and played for the lord in his high seat until half the night was gone. The old songs he played, and new ones he'd made himself, and he played and sang so well that when he was done, the lord offered to let him name his own reward. 'All I ask is a flower,' Bael answered, 'the fairest flower that blooms in the gardens o' Winterfell.'"

"Now as it happened the winter roses had only then come into bloom, and no flower is so rare nor precious. 

 

already quoted this

[LynnS]

4 hours ago, EggBlue said:

I suppose one thing we can be sure is that Martin's winter rose isn't literally poisonous:) why would Lyanna be fond of a poisonous flower? 

Ned says that she was fond of flowers and loved the scent of winter roses.  Many people today grow them because of their beauty and because they bloom mid winter to early spring promising the end of winter and bringing color into the garden or greenhouse.  

 

[LynnS]

2 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

already quoted this

Oh I didn't see it.  So it's a part of Bael's song about the maiden of Winterfell.  Flowers represent maidens in most songs and Stark maidens are associated with the winter rose, a flower that is rare beyond the Wall.

That doesn't mean the flower itself is so rare that it doesn't grow anywhere else.  Most plants that have to be kept in a greenhouse come from a place where they can grow naturally.  The only other thing we can say about it was that they were given at Harrenhall and so it stands to reason that they were growing there rather than transported there..

[AlaskanSandman]

15 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Where does it say in the text that it's rare?   Martin calls the flower, the winter rose.  That is the other name for Hellibore.

Weirwoods don't exist in the real world.  There is no indication that his Winter Roses are based on real ones. Maybe, maybe not. Idk. Im just not fully sold on it. Theyre clearly described as roses, with thorns, and blue. Just going off the text. Not everything in the books do I associate with real world things. Dragons, Wyverns, Weirwoods, Children of the Forest, Weirwood paste, Shade of the Evening, etc. 

I would jus think that if the flower grew in the south, we would have heard about it else where. Dunk and Egg, something. Some nod or hint that they came from the south. Yet, there is literally nothing. 

So while im not saying you are wrong, im not saying you are right either. I just don't know how I feel about it. 

I tend to look for clues in other things. Peoples actions, alliances, marriages, motives, etc. Symbolism isn't always what I go to first. Though Im well aware of symbolism in the books, the symbolism used is mostly explained with in the books. 

The dragon symbolism is clearly tied to stars as expressed through the myth of there being two moons, with one getting to close to the sun (A star), and a thousand dragons spilling forth. With the alleged hero having a flaming sword, and House Dayne having a magical sword forged from a fallen star. While Dany's dragons are likened to a flaming sword. The symbolism is clear and self explanatory within the novels with out having to search up on Wiki or google stuff. (Which didn't exist when the books were first written). So while I think Martin was inspired by real myths, I don't think the reader is required to be versed in real myth. They just have to read what he says, and base things off that.

[AlaskanSandman]

4 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Oh I didn't see it.  So it's a part of Bael's song about the maiden of Winterfell.  Flowers represent maidens in most songs and Stark maidens are associated with the winter rose, a flower that is rare beyond the Wall.

That doesn't mean the flower itself is so rare that it doesn't grow anywhere else.  Most plants that have to be kept in a greenhouse come from a place where they can grow naturally.  The only other thing we can say about it was that they were given at Harrenhall and so it stands to reason that they were growing there rather than transported there..

No, it doesn't make me exclusively right by any means. Just something worth pointing out while I chew on how much I like the theory and whether I try to incorporate it. People bring up good points all the time that are sometimes used in a way I still don't agree with. Im sure I do the same sometimes. I don't expect to be right about half of anything I theorize about, but hopefully I can bring up interesting points that may still mean something, even if I got it wrong. 

[LynnS]

1 minute ago, AlaskanSandman said:

There is no indication that his Winter Roses are based on real ones

You are ignoring the fact that Martin is the one who put the winter rose into the story and it exists in reality rather than as a fantasy creation like the weirwood.  Clearly not many people know that the hellibore is the winter rose and thought he was talking about a species of rose that doesn't exist.