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US Politics: Manchin Shin Drinks the Blood and Cracks the Bone


A True Kaniggit

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1 minute ago, 1066 Larry said:

It's almost like our government isn't remotely up to the task of facing the challenges of its time.

Hall of fame understatement. And kiddos, buckle in because it's about to get a whole lot worse over the next few years. 

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1 minute ago, The Great Unwashed said:

You all are a fucking trip - that’s exactly what you’ve done. 
 

A series of Pyrrhic victories isn’t going to get shit done, and the party is determined to keep doing the exact same thing over and over when it’s been proved to not work,  but somehow progressives should have known after BIDEN FUCKING PROMISED then that he’d get Manchin on board. Can you not hear how crazy that sounds?

Don't worry, they can still do things without Congress, like settlements with separated families, $10k student loan debt relief, limiting petroleum extraction, etc.

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Also, in case anyone wasn't clear - I am SUPER PISSED and blaming Biden and Schumer for this, and Biden for a lot of other things besides. He had all the power to unfuck us for covid and all he had to do was actually do what he said he would and things would have been better. Free, massive testing and earlier mandates, IP freedom for the vaccines, all of that he could just have done. 

But he spent all this time trying to suck Manchin off, lying to the progressive wing and hoping things got better while wasting time. He even got people to believe and buy in, thinking Manchin saying the same thing over and over again was just him being coy.

And Afghanistan sucked, and student loan stuff sucks, and the immigration policy stuff has sucked, and the few things he has got done are going to expire right now. 

Oh, and inflation! Fuuuck. 

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2 minutes ago, The Great Unwashed said:

Why aren’t you telling Biden and other Democrats not to lie in order to get elected because they’re the ones breaking the fucking promises! 
 

The progressives would actually keep them! How is that lying?! This is fucking insanity!

The progressives wouldn't keep most of them, no. Because what they're promising is 6tn bills and things that are unconstitutional. 

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1 minute ago, The Great Unwashed said:

But let’s not actually do anything to help fight it - except just telling the people who keep predicting exactly what happens that they’re liars and shit. 
 

Democrats are going to keep chasing the swing voter right into fucking fascism.

So why didn't progressives actually turn out to vote, then? 

Again, you go to war with the electorate you have. Ain't the swing vote that chose Biden over Sanders. 

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2 minutes ago, The Great Unwashed said:

You all are a fucking trip - that’s exactly what you’ve done. 
 

A series of Pyrrhic victories isn’t going to get shit done, and the party is determined to keep doing the exact same thing over and over when it’s been proved to not work,  but somehow progressives should have known after BIDEN FUCKING PROMISED then that he’d get Manchin on board. Can you not hear how crazy that sounds?

Where is the disconnect that I'm saying "Everyone lied" and you're just hearing "AOC lied."

AOC did lie to activists about what was achievable, but Schumer lied about where things were with Manchin, and Biden lied about his negotiating ability, Manchin possibly lied about his support, Pelosi lied about the House's leverage over the Senate, and so on.

They all lied! Either knowingly or because they believed someone else's lies.

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5 minutes ago, Kalsandra said:

So why didn't progressives actually turn out to vote, then? 

Again, you go to war with the electorate you have. Ain't the swing vote that chose Biden over Sanders. 

Let's not pretend like covid didn't have anything to do with that either.  Sanders asking people not to risk their health to vote probably didn't help him after an early success.

eta: and that Dems have been pushing progressives away forever, no surprise they don't vote in the primaries

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1 minute ago, The Great Unwashed said:

Yeah - but you’d never say to Manchin or Biden they shouldn’t have lied to win the nomination or general election. In fact, I’m pretty sure I remember most of you calling that “good politics” last year when progressives here complained about it. Lots of “it’s just politics” - but the same calculus never applies for progressives.

Funny that.

It is funny, because I said the exact inverse of that. What I said is that Democrats should lie about being as moderate as possible and then just quietly be as liberal as they can when they are in office. The way that Republicans (at least pre-Trump) never talked about the crazy right-wing stuff they wanted, they just ran on tax cuts and calling Democrats socialist. But then in office would be absolutely bonkers. I want Democrats to do the same, only be liberal instead of be bonkers.

Which would work, because activists (who, by definition) are more active in politics would see what was being accomplished and judge Democrats on deeds, not words. While unengaged swing voters would just see the words and be fine with what was being said.

And Democrats went and did the opposite, talk up a big progressive game and achieve moderate (at best) policy goals; thereby just pissing off everyone.

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15 minutes ago, The Great Unwashed said:

But let’s not actually do anything to help fight it - except just telling the people who keep predicting exactly what happens that they’re liars and shit. 

Part about being honest is telling people what you really need to fight against it, and tell them you don't have the votes when they don't exist. 

Quote

Democrats are going to keep chasing the swing voter right into fucking fascism.

Not sure this has much to do with swing voters, but you touched on the more important matter. Republicans have been lying for years about Democrats being socialists and communists. You want to start somewhere with honesty? Tell every Democrat to stop being afraid to call Republicans fascists and never stop calling them it. That's the first real step towards honesty. 

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6 minutes ago, The Great Unwashed said:

You can’t be serious man - you wanted Democrats to run a centrist-focused campaign during the biggest pandemic and financial crisis in a century,after establishment Democrats spent the last 4 years blaming Sanders supporters for Clinton’s loss, and activists are just supposed to trust the establishment.

I talk to or text with activists on a daily basis now - I can say with 100% confidence that your proposal would go over like a lead balloon.

I mean, Biden himself did exactly this, and he won. It was only after the election, and after the Georgia runoff, that his staff started talking like it was 1933 or 1965. They dropped the ball.

And when I made my comments it was during the primaries, when everyone else running was in fantasyland about what they'd do in office.

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5 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Part about being honest is telling people what you really need to fight against it, and tell them you don't have the votes when they don't exist. 

Not sure this has much to do with swing voters, but you touched on the more important matter. Republicans have been lying for years about Democrats being socialists and communists. You want to start somewhere with honesty? Tell every Democrat to stop being afraid to call Republicans fascists and never stop calling them it. That's the first real step towards honesty. 

But they aren't all fascists, and the ones that are, well they share a lot of views with a lot of Dems.  

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9 minutes ago, The Great Unwashed said:

I’ve been shouting from the rooftops Republicans are fascist for years - the shit going on here is scary, but it really hurts my case when dipshits like the fucking President and House Speaker insist on treating them like eccentric family members - after they plotted a coup no less! 
 

And progressives get accused of magical thinking.

You need to recognize that both sides have been engaged in magical thinking for a long time now. I'm glad to see the bandage was ripped off painfully. There's precious little time for coddling people.

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21 minutes ago, 1066 Larry said:

Let's not pretend like covid didn't have anything to do with that either.  Sanders asking people not to risk their health to vote probably didn't help him after an early success.

eta: and that Dems have been pushing progressives away forever, no surprise they don't vote in the primaries

Maybe? It doesn't explain places like wa state though, and it doesn't explain why he couldn't win over Warren and didn't even try to win over buttigieg.

Ultimately if the youngest population which has routinely taken the least precautions about covid also didn't turn out to vote in a primary with record turnout I don't think that's much to do with covid. And if you don't turn out, chances are not great you're gonna get the people you want to elect. 

16 minutes ago, The Great Unwashed said:

Dude - the immediate reaction here was establishment backers blaming progressives for fighting too hard - now people are trying to walk shit back like we just didn’t all go over this a couple hours ago.

I don't think that's accurate, but it certainly isn't the reaction now. 

16 minutes ago, The Great Unwashed said:

Establishment Democrats have been playing a too-long, too-cute game of firing up their base to get wins in the primaries all so they can chase swing voters in the general and it hasn’t been working for a while.

What this had to do with our current situation or why dems lost elections in Maine or, really, anything I'm really unclear. This feels like just a standard festivus grievance. 

16 minutes ago, The Great Unwashed said:

 Their tactics have finally come back to bite them in the ass - it’s either time for a progressive takeover of the Democratic Party, or progressives are going to abandon it altogether. 

Progressives tried to take over and were soundly rejected. Hell, a republican won in Seattle over a progressive this year - do you have any idea how hard it is to do that in Seattle?

So yeah, progressives could split and go third party and get even less done. That is an option, and the fairness monkey would happily agree with that. But that is how you actually do get fascism. 

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4 minutes ago, 1066 Larry said:

But they aren't all fascists, and the ones that are, well they share a lot of views with a lot of Dems.  

Last I saw 70% of Republicans think Trump won the election absent any evidence. That's a fascist movement. Who cares about measuring just how fascist each member is. They're on board. 

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26 minutes ago, The Great Unwashed said:

Yeah - but you’d never say to Manchin or Biden they shouldn’t have lied to win the nomination or general election. In fact, I’m pretty sure I remember most of you calling that “good politics” last year when progressives here complained about it. Lots of “it’s just politics” - but the same calculus never applies for progressives.

Funny that.

You should lie to the voters, or at least exaggerate, when campaigning.

You shouldn't do that to the people who you need to get political decisions with, because they will not make deals with you later and everyone looks stupid.

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Just now, The Great Unwashed said:

We are already sliding into fascism, but doing nothing is somehow better than doing something different.

Makes sense.

Again, we tried doing something different and it failed. Twice! It's failed several times now in fact!

Like what are you suggesting - convincing everyone somehow who didn't vote for Sanders to vote for the next version? I don't get what you want here other than a magical world where the average voter isn't low info and where the system awards rust belt and Florida voters over California ones. 

That world would be awesome! But we don't have that, there's no reasonable way to get there without an authoritarian path, and we are pretty well hosed as a democracy. 

And wishing we voted in a progressive ain't gonna change that. Quite frankly, nothing short of a massive depression like collapse will, and that change may not be what you want either. 

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1 hour ago, Fez said:

And I think its ridiculous to call it "affecting the status quo" when some of these programs were going to last as little a year, and the rest only a few years. Permanent law or bust, that's the only solution when Republicans are fine with letting anything expire.

This is just a sophomoric perspective.  It'd be much harder for Manchin to vote against extending the CTC, or any other program, than it is from blocking it (or in the CTC's case allowing it to expire without a vote).  In fact, Manchin himself identified this as the reasoning for his opposition - once policies are enacted it's very difficult to, and Congress seldom does, abolish them.

More importantly, if you think the Democratic party would be all hunky dory if the only programs in Biden's policy agenda he pursued from the get-go were something like the CTC and ACA subsidies, you're off your rocker.  The same people that are pissed off now would be even more pissed off, and there'd be even more people pissed off. 

Your argument here seems be based on your personal policy preferences, because it's not based on any objective measure of advancing one's policy agenda - and it's certainly not, nor ever would have, even approach the same level of a political victory.

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